Wolf is horrible (to fight). Believe in me (who believes in himself).
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~Marth's Match Ups~
- Thread starter Pr0phetic
- Start date
- Status
MarthBlade
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2008
- Messages
- 12
How would he have an advantage? if snake camps what can marth do about it? approach and get knocked back AGAIN by a grenade or some other funny explosion snake sets off. ( if you have an offensive marth who you always want to approach with i think you would have a disadvantage)
I THINK ( correct me if im wrong)
darkchaos59
Smash Cadet
no ure right if snake camps and keeps knocking u back with his projectile u are clearly at a big disadvantage
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
Good thread. Yay.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
You need supersonic button mashing hearing to beat him apparently.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
k thanks bro.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Umm go away and spam a different character board.
How is this full of fail in any way?
How is this full of fail in any way?
Xisin
Smash Ace
pikachu... do you guys really think its 65:35? really?
Marth can perform amazingly when used well. This is useful stuff.
Shadowblazen
Smash Cadet
I have issues teching G&W dthrow, is it a matter of timing or should I be mashing the shield button?
feardragon64
Smash Champion
You buffer a roll from G&W's throw. Just hold left or right when you're thrown and you'll roll after being dthrow'ed.
Shadowblazen
Smash Cadet
So would that be like a buffered roll instead of a techroll? Oh and what if I wanted to just tech it in place (for whatever reason) without rolling, how do I do that?
clowsui
Smash Legend
fear is wrong
press r on the third beep of gw's throw and you'll be able to tech
hold a direction between the third and fourth beep to roll
teching in place? don't press a direction
press r on the third beep of gw's throw and you'll be able to tech
hold a direction between the third and fourth beep to roll
teching in place? don't press a direction
feardragon64
Smash Champion
Ah my bad. Told you clowsui was better than me.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Is the D3 matchup really still 60:40? I'd think with some of the stuff we do, and the fact that there are good answers, it has gone down to arguably 55:45.
And I honestly think Snake may be Marth's hardest match up >_<.
Rating it at 60:40 is 'somewhat' accurate, in 'some' ways.
But it's not like other 60:40 match ups.
It's very easy for even a slightly better Marth to win. Marth can outplay Dedede quite effectively; through spacing, great aerial momentum, great damage output...
All these things create an advantageous match up for Marth. In other words, we shouldn't be complaining about losing to Dedede.
HOWEVER, why is it 60:40 D3's advantage? Dedede:
a) (can) Live forever. However as D3 does not have a get away escape like Snake's up b; grenades or wave bouncing, he is over all easier to kill [than Snake].
b) Grab game = ****: Damage output is amazing, and if you're as good as your opponent or even slightly worse, you're going to feel the ****.
55:45 may be accurate with the SWF's interpretation of match ups (You know the, if it's not 50:50/55:45 we get completely *****, we're unviable, let's drop <said character> for Meta Knight, guys!).
Rating it at 60:40 is 'somewhat' accurate, in 'some' ways.
But it's not like other 60:40 match ups.
It's very easy for even a slightly better Marth to win. Marth can outplay Dedede quite effectively; through spacing, great aerial momentum, great damage output...
All these things create an advantageous match up for Marth. In other words, we shouldn't be complaining about losing to Dedede.
HOWEVER, why is it 60:40 D3's advantage? Dedede:
a) (can) Live forever. However as D3 does not have a get away escape like Snake's up b; grenades or wave bouncing, he is over all easier to kill [than Snake].
b) Grab game = ****: Damage output is amazing, and if you're as good as your opponent or even slightly worse, you're going to feel the ****.
55:45 may be accurate with the SWF's interpretation of match ups (You know the, if it's not 50:50/55:45 we get completely *****, we're unviable, let's drop <said character> for Meta Knight, guys!).
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
Ok .
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I totally agree that snake is still 60:40. My real question is why D3?
Living forever is great, but considering D3's own kill potential is not so great, we won't entirely be dying much either unless offstage.
Grab game for D3 is pretty nasty, but with some of the stuff that we can do (walk away+options, DS, if they shield in anticipation, get away options, etc.) there's still quite a bit of reason to doubt that D3 is going to win 60% of the time in my opinion. I'll tell you though, I would love to have damage crazy throws like D3 bthrow for marth (that's like 13%).
OmegaXF
Smash Ace
While discussing the Falco match up, you forgot to put" t" in the right before the word majority, In the second sentence.
Why does Marth has a 6/4 advantage against the Ice Climbers? He can technically avoid the grab (so can almost every character) but not getting grabbed even once time is highly unrealistic, even for Marth. In fact I'd say that it's more realistic for the ICs to get their 3 grabs. However, this isn't even the reason why I think the ICs win this match-up.
Marth takes way too much damage while trying to avoid getting grabbed. All he has is Fair and Nair - ICs can beat the dtilt by doing an aerial desynched Blizzard over it. So you basically have to stick out your sword constantly and at the same time you have to avoid getting hit by those ice blocks.
How do you wanna play your zoning game then? You have to avoid ice blocks, blizzard (which easily outpriorizes Marths moves) and grabs all at the same time but you're also always forced to approach. If you camp on the stage you have to avoid the Ice Blocks. If you camp on a platform or in the air their uair ***** you - uair deals 22% (more than Snake ftilt). Granted, Marth doesn't usually camp on platforms or in the air but where the hell do you camp then? Marth has no projectile, ICs have one...so while you try to not get grabbed and seperate them (which Marth isn't good at - his grabs and "safe" moves have very little knockback) they can hit you with Ice Blocks and Blizzard - that's a crapload of damage right there and there's little you can do against it.
I think it's 6/4 ICs...
Marth takes way too much damage while trying to avoid getting grabbed. All he has is Fair and Nair - ICs can beat the dtilt by doing an aerial desynched Blizzard over it. So you basically have to stick out your sword constantly and at the same time you have to avoid getting hit by those ice blocks.
How do you wanna play your zoning game then? You have to avoid ice blocks, blizzard (which easily outpriorizes Marths moves) and grabs all at the same time but you're also always forced to approach. If you camp on the stage you have to avoid the Ice Blocks. If you camp on a platform or in the air their uair ***** you - uair deals 22% (more than Snake ftilt). Granted, Marth doesn't usually camp on platforms or in the air but where the hell do you camp then? Marth has no projectile, ICs have one...so while you try to not get grabbed and seperate them (which Marth isn't good at - his grabs and "safe" moves have very little knockback) they can hit you with Ice Blocks and Blizzard - that's a crapload of damage right there and there's little you can do against it.
I think it's 6/4 ICs...
Gheb, courtesy of the IC match-up discussion:
Ratio: 4:6
He out ranges and out prioritizes you on the ground and air. Most of his attacks are double or more of your throw range allowing him to easily space you, and he has some good options to stop your approach. SH Fair will go over ice blocks and hit straight through your blizzards and squall hammers. He also has a good arsenal of edgeguarding tactics to disrupt the IC's recovery.
F-air if properly spaced beats out all of the IC's attacks except blizzard (and maybe belay?). I don't know if anyone else has experienced this but I'v actually had a Marth, who is stuck in the freeze frames from the blizzard, actually F-air me OUT of it. It does not happen every often, but it can. They can also Dolphin Slash out of it and hit you if they DI towards you then use it.
its in his favor but stopping/edge guarding him is easy. his dancing blade is his best tool in this matchup and he WILL abuse it. you can try shielding it but more than likely some part will shield poke one or both of you. power shielding makes this matchup a lot easier to get grabs. on top of all of this blizzard is our ****** tool. desync'd alting blizzards is just amazing on marth. use ice desync'd ice blocks to force an approach and then just cg his medium weight *** all over the place.
it is important to remember, however, that good marths will have terrific spacing making most of this very hard (see: near impossible) to pull off.
Ratio: 4:6
He out ranges and out prioritizes you on the ground and air. Most of his attacks are double or more of your throw range allowing him to easily space you, and he has some good options to stop your approach. SH Fair will go over ice blocks and hit straight through your blizzards and squall hammers. He also has a good arsenal of edgeguarding tactics to disrupt the IC's recovery.
F-air if properly spaced beats out all of the IC's attacks except blizzard (and maybe belay?). I don't know if anyone else has experienced this but I'v actually had a Marth, who is stuck in the freeze frames from the blizzard, actually F-air me OUT of it. It does not happen every often, but it can. They can also Dolphin Slash out of it and hit you if they DI towards you then use it.
its in his favor but stopping/edge guarding him is easy. his dancing blade is his best tool in this matchup and he WILL abuse it. you can try shielding it but more than likely some part will shield poke one or both of you. power shielding makes this matchup a lot easier to get grabs. on top of all of this blizzard is our ****** tool. desync'd alting blizzards is just amazing on marth. use ice desync'd ice blocks to force an approach and then just cg his medium weight *** all over the place.
it is important to remember, however, that good marths will have terrific spacing making most of this very hard (see: near impossible) to pull off.
ICs would seem mostly stage dependant, Marth can easily out manouver IC's projectiles; ICs can't really approach Marth in this case (the reverse is true as well); and yes, it's pretty reasonable to understand blizzard is problematic for Marth.
However, Marth's fair angled around his feet out disjoints it. Depending on platforms he can DS out of everything pregrab (like Snake BUT definitely not as effective). Marth can use DB1 stall gimmicks to space himself very well for blizzard desynchs. Marth's rushdown is better against ICs due to dashing transcended priority, and has the aerial mobility to follow up things... like MK but yet again not as effective without a shuttle loop.
I loathe stale mate type match ups, and ICs is pretty close to one of them. In the original discussion I said it's probably even, but at the time Hylian argued prefusely that it was definitely in Marth's favour.
Take your pick of ratio dependant on how much stages are taken into consideration. In standard 3 (FD, BF, SV) Marth will be striking FD, most likely playing on SV, whilst mostly zoning the platform - In standard 5 (FD, BF, SV, YI + ??) with ?? being probably lylat, you're restricted to bf, yi or lylat. Lylat probably being the most in ICs favour; whilst still effective for Marth.
With great 'grab breaking' skills [from the player], appropriate use of fthrow, fairs, db to punish (0 hit lag makes this move so effective against ICs), it's not a losing match up.
It's still one of my most hated though.
However, Marth's fair angled around his feet out disjoints it. Depending on platforms he can DS out of everything pregrab (like Snake BUT definitely not as effective). Marth can use DB1 stall gimmicks to space himself very well for blizzard desynchs. Marth's rushdown is better against ICs due to dashing transcended priority, and has the aerial mobility to follow up things... like MK but yet again not as effective without a shuttle loop.
I loathe stale mate type match ups, and ICs is pretty close to one of them. In the original discussion I said it's probably even, but at the time Hylian argued prefusely that it was definitely in Marth's favour.
Take your pick of ratio dependant on how much stages are taken into consideration. In standard 3 (FD, BF, SV) Marth will be striking FD, most likely playing on SV, whilst mostly zoning the platform - In standard 5 (FD, BF, SV, YI + ??) with ?? being probably lylat, you're restricted to bf, yi or lylat. Lylat probably being the most in ICs favour; whilst still effective for Marth.
With great 'grab breaking' skills [from the player], appropriate use of fthrow, fairs, db to punish (0 hit lag makes this move so effective against ICs), it's not a losing match up.
It's still one of my most hated though.
_Kadaj_
Smash Hero
I'd say Ic's vs Marth is a little in Ic's favor and the only way to win is to camp your balls off and even then its still a hard match-up.
Marth vs Snake is even ask any good Snake (Afro, Candy, Ally, etc...)
you need to know what to look for, personally it's one of my favorite match-ups at high level play
But again I def think Ic's has the advantage over marth
If you camp they desynch and use blizzard with one and bait your jump so they can just start an up-air chain with the other, If you dont jump you get grabbed, if you get hit by it you better be SDI'ng away and even then you MAY still get grabbed.
your grab game is useless, Fair and Nair help only a little
Marth vs Snake is even ask any good Snake (Afro, Candy, Ally, etc...)
you need to know what to look for, personally it's one of my favorite match-ups at high level play
But again I def think Ic's has the advantage over marth
If you camp they desynch and use blizzard with one and bait your jump so they can just start an up-air chain with the other, If you dont jump you get grabbed, if you get hit by it you better be SDI'ng away and even then you MAY still get grabbed.
your grab game is useless, Fair and Nair help only a little
Xisin
Smash Ace
depends on controler ports.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
ZSS players keep ****** me. How the hell do you get past their side+b spacing and paralyzer shots? If I swat the paralyzer shots they dash attack and start uair juggling me or usmash/up+b'ing me. Same story if I air dodge. If I double jump it then they shield my fair and grab me(stupid long range grab). I'm probably just being a scrub but do you guys have any convenient ways of getting in?
you shield it
You're giving ZSS way too much space. You have to stay on her so she can't do all her **** to keep marth out
You're giving ZSS way too much space. You have to stay on her so she can't do all her **** to keep marth out
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
I think we are underrating the difficulty of the Sonic matchup, he has far too many options and mixups to be considered a 65:35 imo. Also, we can pretty much never ever gimp him.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
Marth shuts down a lot of Sonic's options, especially after playing my friend's and Wes' Sonic, 65:35 - 60:40 is definitely right to me.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
gah laggy double post -_-
Albert.
Smash Master
feardragon64
Smash Champion
Gotta love those 2 .5 hour late double posts.
Browny
Smash Hater
allow me to say; the current marth v sonic mathup discussion was written when people KNEW his only approach was an uncharged, grounded down b from across the stage.
*note* slight exaggeration for those of you who dont quite understand what Im gettning at here. im referring to the complete lack of mentioning any of Sonic's variety of cancellable approaches, implying his only approach is indeed the un-cancellable uncharged, grounded down b.
*note* slight exaggeration for those of you who dont quite understand what Im gettning at here. im referring to the complete lack of mentioning any of Sonic's variety of cancellable approaches, implying his only approach is indeed the un-cancellable uncharged, grounded down b.
We still out prio his approaches with a dtilt.
<3
The only difference now is that Sonic vs Marth is some sort of major camp fest from Sonic until the "mindgame tactics" make you get inpatient, which if it's on any larger than normal stage is an utmost chore.
<3
The only difference now is that Sonic vs Marth is some sort of major camp fest from Sonic until the "mindgame tactics" make you get inpatient, which if it's on any larger than normal stage is an utmost chore.
The Squirtle match-up surprised me - I hate that little turtle...
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
We have a 0-death on him.
Squirtle has a plethora of gimping options on Marth, really, I'd be prone to say he has enough 'things' to make you as scared as Squirtle off the stage as meta knight.
Plus if you use Dolphin Slash and are over 100%, Squirtle covers all your get up options with ease...
75:25 is probably too extreme:
PT vs Marth in a stage striking system:
PT will strike final destination and smashville.
Battlefield removes the 0-death option pretty much
and yoshi's is variable, as well as lylat. Squirtle does well against Marth on Lylat and reasonably well on battlefield.
The neutral at least will -not- be insta win against Squirtle at every circumstance.
I think Ivysaur has a worse match up against Marth than Squirtle does, including the "release grab 0-death"; Ivysaur is pretty much 0-deathd from any fthrow...
Plus if you use Dolphin Slash and are over 100%, Squirtle covers all your get up options with ease...
75:25 is probably too extreme:
PT vs Marth in a stage striking system:
PT will strike final destination and smashville.
Battlefield removes the 0-death option pretty much
and yoshi's is variable, as well as lylat. Squirtle does well against Marth on Lylat and reasonably well on battlefield.
The neutral at least will -not- be insta win against Squirtle at every circumstance.
I think Ivysaur has a worse match up against Marth than Squirtle does, including the "release grab 0-death"; Ivysaur is pretty much 0-deathd from any fthrow...
Ivysaur's just too easy to edgeguard...
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
Lol, it's what happens when you go on Smashboards from your Sidekick, and the webpage doesn't load correctly.
I second that Ivysaur has it worst, even though he has powerful smashes and good damage racking, we simply own him on and off stage.
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