Marth Q&A-Ask your questions here!!

[RestInPeace]

eleven, who's quote is that?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It's from Taj.

 

[IrArby]

Wow great quote from Taj. I mean some of it we sorta already know but it he put it better with more insight. I think he made a great point as far as Marth having more of a "margin of error" than Fox. Alpha Zealot was talking about how dominant Marth has been in major tourneys (something like 50% of them won by Marths alone) and I feel we couldn't quite successfully explain why.

Obviously, many of the best players: Ken , M2K, Azen, etc play him but why do they play him. I think this pinpoints it. Fox's get auto-comboed by almost everyone where Marth can be a little more tricky (unless your Falcon). You don't have to be spot on with everything to win as Marth. Sure a perfectly played Fox is almost unstoppable but even pros don't play perfect.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, that, and I also think it has a lot to do with the metagame. Most people play spacies and are prepared to deal with that matchup, but Marth is a character I feel like a lot of people don't know how to deal with and he has a very robust game against both spacies.

 

[IrArby]

Very true also. My original argument was that he had greater ability to control matches which is I think true and it sorta plays into what Taj said. A Fox that gets grabbed has lost control and possibly a stock at most percents. A Marth who gets grabbed takes a decent percent but usually not a stock and can sorta take control back. If a Fox drillshine upthrow to upairs Marth he make take extra damage due to juggling but its no longer a combo and very escapable since you've got alot of moves to use. If Marth upthrows CGs Fox he's doing a juggling combo and only good DI or a mistake by Marth will save you.

Still, a perfect Fox would beat a perfect Marth.

 

[CommanderCody08]

Alright, So I'm chainthrowing Fox/ Falco. I hear that the best thing to do is "Pivot Grab" Is pivot grabbing just doing a quck dash dance and then Grabbing again? Or is there something more to pivot gabbing? I know about jump canceling so I assume I should JC the grab.

Also All I ever really practice against are CPUs since my ******** friends prefer Brawl. If I'm playing a human controlled Space animal are they able to DI way behind me because the CPUs never ever do. It seems like half the time a human would DI behing Marth were they being chain thrown.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yes, that's right, and yes, they can, but you can chaingrab up to thirty percent without them being able to break out.

 

[HowdYdoo]

You start using utilts from there right? And would you use the forward utilt of the backwards one (hitting with the hitbox behind your head) I always get confused as to which one to use.

 

[Tero.]

Alright, So I'm chainthrowing Fox/ Falco. I hear that the best thing to do is "Pivot Grab" Is pivot grabbing just doing a quck dash dance and then Grabbing again? Or is there something more to pivot gabbing? I know about jump canceling so I assume I should JC the grab.

Pivoting is a turnarround in the initial dash animation, you should have a look at the "Advanced how to play" video to see good examples.
Also if you pivot correctly you do not need to jc your grabs, because you are in a standing position. You can do jc grabs so you don't dash grab if you mess up the pivot.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It doesn't matter which utilt you use, really. People use the reverse one because it's easier to hit with the sweetspot.

 

[IrArby]

If you JC your pivot grab it becomes possible for you to cancel your pivot with your jump (which is canceling your run). Its kinda wierd but trust me you'll do more consistent pivot grabs (at least when you're CG spacies). So in summary, just dash away and back really quick and hit Z. No JC required as that can cancel the turn.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

If you don't break into your run, I'm pretty sure the turn around is instant...

 

[IrArby]

I'm not so sure. Someone knowledgable on the subject was discussing it a while back. I think if you JC while turning it also cancels your turn. It can't be instataneous. I wouldn't even call it pivoting when I do it but it works. Its more like a dash dance with an immediate running grab.

 

[Sybawave]

The thing I don't like about JC Grabs is that you can go past your opponent. Pivots grabs don't miss and I tried it out today lol Pivot FTW

 

[elvenarrow3000]

IrArby, if you could find proof, that'd be interesting to see. I was always under the impression that dashdance turn arounds were instant.

*sigh* Y'know, you guys don't have to take my advice if you don't want to and you can use your dash grabs or pivot grabs or whatever, I'm just saying it's not a good idea.

 

[Sybawave]

I just did them both lol I just feel safer with Pivots than JCs (this only applies to when they are at the 20% area XD) I JC the rest of the time

 

[elvenarrow3000]

[13:21] <Mew2King> 0-16
[13:21] <Mew2King> dont move
[13:21] <Mew2King> just grab
[13:21] <Mew2King> where thye DI
[13:21] <Mew2King> if they are at 17, and they DI forward
[13:21] <Mew2King> you prolly need to dash grab
[13:21] <Mew2King> if they are at 20
[13:21] <Mew2King> and dont DI
[13:21] <Mew2King> pivot grab
[13:22] <Mew2King> dont worry about back DI
[13:22] <Mew2King> you can CG 0-28 with back DI
[13:22] <Mew2King> o_O
[13:22] <Mew2King> without moving
[13:22] <Mew2King> but only 0-17 for forward DI
[13:22] <Mew2King> 0-20 for no DI
[13:22] <Mew2King> for up tilts
[13:22] <Mew2King> if they are at 22/23% +
[13:22] <Mew2King> when they dont DI
[13:22] <Mew2King> if you do it REALLY fast
[13:22] <Mew2King> you can hit them up
[13:22] <Mew2King> you can up tilt as soon as 22/23% +
[13:22] <Mew2King> and hit them UP
[13:22] <Mew2King> if they do no DI
[13:22] <Mew2King> i usually
[13:22] <Mew2King> dont up tilt
[13:23] <Mew2King> till around high 20s
[13:23] <Mew2King> or 30
[13:23] <Mew2King> but you can do it that soon with no DI
[13:23] <Mew2King> i dont tho
[13:23] <Mew2King> cuz if they DI
[13:23] <Mew2King> you cant get them
[13:23] <Mew2King> so anyway
[13:23] <Mew2King> if ur at 0-25
[13:23] <Mew2King> i mean
[13:23] <Mew2King> 0-35
[13:23] <Mew2King> up tilt always hits
[13:23] <Mew2King> if you do it really fast
[13:23] <Mew2King> 0-35 works for forward DI
[13:23] <Mew2King> 36 + if you dont move, with forward DI they can escape
[13:23] <Mew2King> 0-50 for back DI
[13:24] <Mew2King> exactly 0-50 >_>
[13:24] <Mew2King> i usually stop
[13:24] <Mew2King> at like mid 40s
[13:24] <Mew2King> if they DI forward at over 35
[13:24] <Mew2King> i walk forward a bit
[13:24] <Mew2King> then do up tilt
[13:24] <Mew2King> cuz it works till low 40s that way
[13:24] <Mew2King> or mid 40s
[13:24] <Mew2King> no **** >_>
[13:24] <Mew2King> usually like 40-80 range or so
[13:24] <Mew2King> up throw + forward smash
[13:24] <Mew2King> if they dont DI you can get them up to like mid 40s to like 80 or so
[13:24] <Mew2King> without them getting out

I would really just try doing the "pivot grab" on no one and make sure that you're actually getting the standing grab animation.

 

[Havokbringer]

All that information for just chain grabs and uptilts from m2k.

Good ****.

 

[Tero.]

I'm not so sure. Someone knowledgable on the subject was discussing it a while back. I think if you JC while turning it also cancels your turn. It can't be instataneous. I wouldn't even call it pivoting when I do it but it works. Its more like a dash dance with an immediate running grab.

JC can cancel your turnarround, i had that problem when they DI back and i tried to turn arround jc grab (it canceled my turn arround), but that never happened to me while doing pivot grabs.

wow good stuff from m2k

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm not so sure. Someone knowledgable on the subject was discussing it a while back. I think if you JC while turning it also cancels your turn. It can't be instataneous. I wouldn't even call it pivoting when I do it but it works. Its more like a dash dance with an immediate running grab.

If you use the flick method for pivot grabbing you should have no problems. You can still JC the grab and it will not stop your turn around.

Really though, you shouldn't even be seeing your turn around when pivot grabbing. All you should be actually seeing is Marth dashing in one direction, and then immediately doing a standing grab (where did you get running grab from?) in the other direction.

Pivoting is instantaneous (it only takes 1 frame dude). Empty pivots are not, however. Doing the pivot without inputting any further action results in your character stopping mid dash and doing a normal turn around. In putting any action during the pivot itself skips this and just does the action while facing the direction you would've been facing after the turn around.

 

[Sybawave]

^^Nice lol and someone should make a video with the directions M2k gave

 

[Tee ay eye]

[13:21] <Mew2King> 0-16
[13:21] <Mew2King> dont move
[13:21] <Mew2King> just grab
[13:21] <Mew2King> where thye DI
[13:21] <Mew2King> if they are at 17, and they DI forward
[13:21] <Mew2King> you prolly need to dash grab
[13:21] <Mew2King> if they are at 20
[13:21] <Mew2King> and dont DI
[13:21] <Mew2King> pivot grab
[13:22] <Mew2King> dont worry about back DI
[13:22] <Mew2King> you can CG 0-28 with back DI
[13:22] <Mew2King> o_O
[13:22] <Mew2King> without moving
[13:22] <Mew2King> but only 0-17 for forward DI
[13:22] <Mew2King> 0-20 for no DI
[13:22] <Mew2King> for up tilts
[13:22] <Mew2King> if they are at 22/23% +
[13:22] <Mew2King> when they dont DI
[13:22] <Mew2King> if you do it REALLY fast
[13:22] <Mew2King> you can hit them up
[13:22] <Mew2King> you can up tilt as soon as 22/23% +
[13:22] <Mew2King> and hit them UP
[13:22] <Mew2King> if they do no DI
[13:22] <Mew2King> i usually
[13:22] <Mew2King> dont up tilt
[13:23] <Mew2King> till around high 20s
[13:23] <Mew2King> or 30
[13:23] <Mew2King> but you can do it that soon with no DI
[13:23] <Mew2King> i dont tho
[13:23] <Mew2King> cuz if they DI
[13:23] <Mew2King> you cant get them
[13:23] <Mew2King> so anyway
[13:23] <Mew2King> if ur at 0-25
[13:23] <Mew2King> i mean
[13:23] <Mew2King> 0-35
[13:23] <Mew2King> up tilt always hits
[13:23] <Mew2King> if you do it really fast
[13:23] <Mew2King> 0-35 works for forward DI
[13:23] <Mew2King> 36 + if you dont move, with forward DI they can escape
[13:23] <Mew2King> 0-50 for back DI
[13:24] <Mew2King> exactly 0-50 >_>
[13:24] <Mew2King> i usually stop
[13:24] <Mew2King> at like mid 40s
[13:24] <Mew2King> if they DI forward at over 35
[13:24] <Mew2King> i walk forward a bit
[13:24] <Mew2King> then do up tilt
[13:24] <Mew2King> cuz it works till low 40s that way
[13:24] <Mew2King> or mid 40s
[13:24] <Mew2King> no **** >_>
[13:24] <Mew2King> usually like 40-80 range or so
[13:24] <Mew2King> up throw + forward smash
[13:24] <Mew2King> if they dont DI you can get them up to like mid 40s to like 80 or so
[13:24] <Mew2King> without them getting out

I would really just try doing the "pivot grab" on no one and make sure that you're actually getting the standing grab animation.

Is this for Fox or Falco?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I dunno, they're pretty similar. If in doubt, I'd assume it was for Fox.

 

[IrArby]

Turning around from a DD is the same frame time as a pivot right? I swear I'm not trying to frustrate anyone of be an *** but, if thats the case whats the advantage to pivoting the grab so you can consistently JC it? I'm asking not stating because I really don't know fully but I only see an advantage to pivot JC if you miss. Less lag obviously. Where as I just hit > then < (DashDance) very quickly immediately followed by Z. Thats worked for me and I'd like to know if theres a big difference.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

If you didn't properly pivot and you didn't jump cancel, the grab comes out like three frames slower and lags for ten frames more if you miss.

 

[IrArby]

So Dash away, dash back, grab (no matter how small the dashes are) will be three frames slower? Ok.

 

[Sybawave]

No...If you Dash away and then Dash back and do a DASH GRAB instead of Standing Grab (JC Grab/Pivot Grab) then that will take 3 frames longer to happen and if you miss that Dash Grab, you will lag for 10 frames.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Forty frames, actually, which is ten more than the standing grab's thirty.

 

[KyloWinter]

How to I play against yoshi? Where do I counterpick stages? It's so hard to edgeguard him because i have nothing quick that can stuff his double jump.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Turning around from a DD is the same frame time as a pivot right?

No it is not. The pivot actually comes out a little quicker. That's because the frame for the pivot is actually right before the frame for your turn around (your character is standing straight up for one frame before dashing backwards, and you can do a backwards grab from this position)

I swear I'm not trying to frustrate anyone of be an *** but, if thats the case whats the advantage to pivoting the grab so you can consistently JC it?

The point isn't to jump cancel it, the point is to get the grab out as quickly as possible at lower percentages and outrange a possible shine. But if you happen to miss the pivot, you get your dash grab by mistake, which has a little more startup lag and a lot more ending lag.

 

[Clone Z]

Wow I just realized I suck at stages with platforms especially Yoshi's Story. I've been practicing too much on FD.

Other than learn how to waveland what should I generally do?

 

[Tero.]

Learn how to tipper.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Wow I just realized I suck at stages with platforms especially Yoshi's Story. I've been practicing too much on FD.

Other than learn how to waveland what should I generally do?

Learn to tech chase with uptilts, fairs, and uairs when opponents land on the platforms. Also note that on YS Marth can reach the top platform with a short hopped uair.

In general, just play around with the platforms more. You can do some crazy stuff if you mix platform drops in with your combos.

 

[IrArby]

Thank you to everyone who patiently allieviated me of my pivot JC grabing ignorance. I understand it now and intend to practice it later. Thanks again.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Against Yoshi? I dunno, just take potshots at him when he's recovering.

EDIT: I'd go Yoshi's Story, that's always good for Marth... Final Destination would screw up his recovery options too. Maybe Battlefield.

 

[Sybawave]

Where do you take a Jiggs?

YS is given...Green Greens...any other places?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yoshi's... Pokemon Stadium could work, maybe Battlefield. Not sure on that one. Fountain of Dreams? Just stages with close blastlines and are small.

EDIT: I dunno about Green Greens... the bombs can hamper your swing and the edges are close enough so that you barely have an advantage... it's taste, I guess.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Where do you take a Jiggs?

YS is given...Green Greens...any other places?

Corneria. It's really good.

 

[Tero.]

^Neutral Stages are better for Marth.

Go Yoshis Story. If it's banned go Battlefield.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Corneria? As Marth? =/