Mario's Metagame Analysis (Updated as of 3/06/2010)

[Flameleon]

-Yeah, i meant that x9-

 

[Sleek Media]

Who're the punks abandoning Mario for high tiers? I'll gladly thrash em and show em the error of their ways.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Great section Hero! I've also tried the fthrow to fsmash it works well. I wonder if A2Z can teach me the Super Sliding Usmash, I haven't seen anyone use it.

The best use for Sliding Up-smash is for punishing landings from long distances. You can also use it as an option for crossing over the opponent and punishing rolls.

Following after a fireball or F-throw is also a fairly decent way to implement the Sliding Up-smash. Generally speaking it's not something that will be easy to pull off. Its potential lies in surprise factor.

And anyhow the timing in case you were wondering. Just watch the initial dash animation and wait for Mario's feet to hit the ground before charging Up-smash.

 

[condemned_soul]

im never giving up mario for nothing. lol I hope i stay in that state of mind ^_^

 

[POONR]

This is an amazing analysis of a poorly estimated character. It is a bit long, but I'm glad someone took the time to do this.

 

[Sleek Media]

I didn't realize there were updates. Some interesting ideas in there. I'll definitely try em out.

 

[rm88]

Jab cancel is SUPER DUPER IMPORTANT and crucial to adding onto damage, which allows you to KO faster. A full combo does 9% damage. Jab-Jab-F-tilt (currently named the (true) PPK Combo) does 13% damage and it's unblockable on anything not Fox/Falco/Wolf, meaning it's true combo. It's also 3% less than Ike's full jab combo, which is the highest 3-hit jab combo in the game. Jab-Jab-D-Smash (currently named the Breakdance Combo) does a whooping 20% damage. That's just 1 point less than Snake's F-tilt.

Hi, guys, Mario noob here. I can't seem to cancel the jab properly... do I simply stop tapping A? Do I have to do something else? Thanks in advance!.

 

[SKidd]

You jab once or twice and tap crouch, make sure the jab is sweetspotted though.
sweetspot = mario's fist is hitting, not his arms in his opponents body, and if it is sweetspotted the person you're jabbing will begin to rise off the ground
sourspot = flinching on the ground

 

[Coolwhip]

This is good stuff.

 

[rm88]

Thanks! I'll be sure to try it. I've been playing with Mario a lot recently, I surprisingly don't do awful against Snake and Toon Link (some of my most difficult match-ups with Peach, my main). Also, maining Mario-Peach-Luigi is awesome :D

 

[fromundaman]

Hmmm... I really dislike TL with Mario myself.

 

[Juushichi]

Yeah, it's not fun. Having Links and Quivo as our in-state TL's doesn't make things any easier. It's a winnable matchup, bit it really relies on you waiting for that one mistake, taking minimal damage and more or less taking a stock quickly (I'll go as far as to say take first stock, or you'll lose).

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't get how to beat Toon Link yet. A few things that I do know:

Learning to catch Bombs and instant item toss helps. Crouching is pretty good against him to help you get past his Z-air (crouch -> powershield basically) and I believe is able to avoid most of his SHed aerials pretty well. If he tries anything fancy when you D-throw him that isn't airdodging, you can basically U-air combo him all day due to how floaty he is and due to his lack of good combo breakers. Edgeguarding him can be a bit tricky since you have to be able to answer his projectiles.

Hippiedude might know more about this matchup since he gets to play Jash a lot.

Snake isn't a better matchup than Toon Link, but imo is a much less stressful matchup. One of my sparring partners mains Snake, and I've logged in a lot of time in that matchup. Honestly Mario can win it just fine...it just takes work to get Snake within kill range and you aren't allowed to make that many mistakes. Knowing when all three of your Smashes kill him is essential as well, especially charged Up-smash. If you have the opportunity to time him out on a stage where it's easy to run away, it's worth considering if you score the first kill.

 

[Sleek Media]

For all his imbalance, I actually don't think Snake is a very tough matchup. It's all about playing YOUR game and not HIS:

- Use fireballs. Use them alot, especially if he starts throwing grenades. You can outcamp Snake so bad it isn't funny. They are especially helpful when approaching in this matchup, and are essential for wearing down his shield enough to make dair a reliable approach.
- Snake is practically a sitting duck once you get him in the air. He can't do much to defend himself besides airdodge.
- If you get a chance, spike him out of the cypher, but he'll usually recover high.
- If he tries a dsmash mine, detonate it with a fireball as soon as you get a chance.
- His usmash can be caped.

- DO NOT let him abuse shield->ftilt on you. If you play smart and take this away from him, he loses his best damage builder.
- Once you get to around 80%, you can start predicting utilt. It hits all around him, so just being behind isn't enough. Toss fireballs, and make him come to you. If you find yourself recovering from above, stall with the cape, then punish his utilt.
- Don't bother caping his recovery. For some reason, he gets a new cypher.
- Don't attack him directly if he's holding a grenade. Throw fireballs instead.

- Watch out for his auto jab and grab. If you play things right, these are going to be his main sources of damage/setups on you, and they're both dangerous.
- Consider 80% to be your KO% here. Not taking damage is more important than dealing it, so be patient and play it safe. Always keep his shield damaged.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Eh Snake isn't Olimar (who does get outcamped by Mario). Snake actually outcamps Mario, since you really don't have the luxury of fireball camping while simultaneously avoiding 14% grenade explosions. Fireballs however are REALLY GOOD in this matchup for approaching him in general. Beware though, if he reads your landing while you're hovering away from his grenade camping, he will try to punish you with Dash attack.

When Snake's F-tilt is stale, or if you powershielded the first hit, Mario can usually D-smash out of shield against the 2nd hit. If snake's F-tilt wasn't spaced at maximum range, B-air out of shield usually can punish it as well. Even though your F-tilt isn't as good as his, it's actually REALLY GOOD in this matchup since it's not something he's usually going to DI on reaction, so it can put him in a pretty bad position offstage at moderate percents.

Snake has to choose between B-air and airdodge when above you. Up-smash timed right can beat both options, but must be timed slightly differently depending on whether or not he B-airs or airdodges. It's about conditioning him.

Generally if Snake is grenade camping and grenade shielding, your main objective is to run up to him and F-throw. It doesn't set off his grenades, and putting him offstage should give you plenty of time to put a stop to his grenade camping.

Usually when I anticipate a tilt, this is when I start trying to bait Snake into F-smash. I will sit slightly outside of Snake's F-tilt range and charge F-smash, and punish if he commits to it. Similarly if I'm at a KO percent, one of my favorite ways of turning the tides is by baiting his U-tilt with F-smash's leanback. An Up-angled F-smash is not to be underestimated, perfectly capable of killing Snake at around 110% if fresh, possibly at 90% if you manage to bait him into a charged F-smash. The huge damage and shieldpush makes it a useful option even if it doesn't kill anyway.

Edgetrapping Snake is really useful, partly because he doesn't edgecamp well, also because all of his options on the edge are heavily punishable. Usually against Snake, you should just stand next to the edge and shield, which can only be bypassed by the ledgeroll, which is the laggiest of getup options. If you shield his ledge attack, free Smash out of shield. His ledgejump can be punished on reaction if you know its animation. On the flip side, it's not easy for Mario to get up from the ledge against a good Snake either.

While Sliding U-smash isn't necessarily the most practical option against Snake, you should learn when it actually kills him. Normally Mario has to wait until 150-160 before U-smash kills Snake with reasonable consistency. A perfectly spaced Sliding U-smash kills Snake anywhere from 120-130ish. Know how long you must charge U-smash to kill Snake at that range. It's very useful to know when you're juggling him.

 

[Famous]

Ehhh....outdated but a good example on the MU...Just don't sandbag like I did and you'll be fine :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5yjAgcFAdo

Aslo@ 3:42 FIREBALL GUARD, rofl

 

[Sleek Media]

Eh Snake isn't Olimar (who does get outcamped by Mario). Snake actually outcamps Mario, since you really don't have the luxury of fireball camping while simultaneously avoiding 14% grenade explosions. Fireballs however are REALLY GOOD in this matchup for approaching him in general. Beware though, if he reads your landing while you're hovering away from his grenade camping, he will try to punish you with Dash attack.

I agree with alot of what you said, except this. Mario outcamps Snake. Stay in the air and keep tossing fireballs with good zoning. Make sure they'll hit, but aren't so far ahead that he can run/slide under them. While grenades do tons of damage if they hit, it should never happen. Just jump over them, and always keep moving horizontally to avoid grenade momentum cancels.

 

[BSP]

You should note that sweetspotting the ledge with SJP will give you RCO lag next time you land. In that video Famous posted, I think he got punished for not getting rid of RCO lag before he tried to do the SH Fireball approach.

 

[Naisora]

Eh Snake isn't Olimar (who does get outcamped by Mario). Snake actually outcamps Mario, since you really don't have the luxury of fireball camping while simultaneously avoiding 14% grenade explosions. Fireballs however are REALLY GOOD in this matchup for approaching him in general. Beware though, if he reads your landing while you're hovering away from his grenade camping, he will try to punish you with Dash attack.

I dont know A2Z. I beat a pretty okay Snake with Mario in a tournament set while camping once. It went down to 2 minutes, but i still won. Anyways, I agree on the juggle part. I have to play very patient in this MU though... lol

 

[Coolwhip]

A2Z knows his stuff.

 

[fromundaman]

I feel the main problem with camping Snake is that it's only effective at mid-distance, but at that distance, it only works if Snake decides to keep trying to camp you, and if he does pretty much anything else, he can **** you up.

Against a camping Snake, main thing I try to do is have a fireball in the way of his grenade throws so that his grenades stop next to him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think fromundaman explained it most concisely. Snake has options besides grenades that he can use to counter Mario at his fireball range. And the thing that makes fireball camping really iffy is that the damage on it is extremely low, while all of Snake's counters to fireball camping do at least two to three times as much damage.

You can afford to camp Olimar because his camping actually does really low overall damage to Mario and can be turned against him (between Cape and D-air not to mention Mario's own fireballs, he's one of the better characters in Brawl at neutralizing Olimar's camping). Against Snake...the way you're gonna maximize your reward against him is only going to happen if you can approach him successfully.

 

[Sleek Media]

What do you think Snake can do to counter through fireballs? The best he can do is cancel them out, and you have more than enough time to react. Like I said, if he can mortar slide under your fireballs, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Matt07]

Ehhh....outdated but a good example on the MU...Just don't sandbag like I did and you'll be fine :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5yjAgcFAdo

Aslo@ 3:42 FIREBALL GUARD, rofl

Famous your really good at dodging those f-tilts, teach me!

 

[A2ZOMG]

There isn't any one consistent way to deal with Snake's F-tilt. Either you outspace it in the air, punish it out of shield with D-smash or B-air (watch the spacing), powershield the first hit into shieldgrab, bait and punish with F-smash, you just have to kinda keep an open mind for how you're gonna deal with that move.


And yeah Sleek, I agree he shouldn't exactly be mortar sliding under fireballs. But what I do think Snake can do is generally make approaching him really tedious. And a slight mistake in your approach can usually be punished by a Dash Attack for a good chunk of damage. Generally once you start pressuring, the idea is that hopefully in theory you can make the right reads so that you maintain control for the majority of the match, since that is more or less essential for racking up the necessary damage needed to kill him.

 

[Inferno3044]

One of the best things to do with Snake is to just camp. Do the Deltacod and clock him out. It's perfectly a legit way of winning. Also, I think BF is a terrible stage for Snake so I'd take him there. Can't type why now because I have class soon.

 

[Sleek Media]

Yeah, A2Z, I agree that ftilt is probably the biggest problem with Snake. He'll wear you down fast...your shield can't handle it, and he can go for grab chases anyway. The best way to deal with it is to stay in the air and keep fireball pressure on. Your goal should be to keep his shield weak so that you can eat through with attacks like dair when necessary.

 

[Inferno3044]

Mario can outcamp Snake. It just looks hard because fireballs do so little and ftilt does like 20%. Snake has to approach you. He can't throw grenades if Mario keeps throwing fireballs at him. That's why I like BF is an amazing stage to fight Snake on. Just throw fireballs and platform camp. The top platform is very safe because has very few, if any good options to hit you.

 

[SKidd]

And watch as no one is trolled by your post

 

[A2ZOMG]

Inferno, your matchup logic is pretty bad if you believe Mario outcamps Snake. What Snakes have you been playing? I've played a number of good Snakes in tournament actually. My sparring partner JohnZ for example (I have replays of him I need to get up eventually), JonT, SuSa. Back when Bigfoot still went to tournaments he turned to Snake and I played him in tournament as well.

And trust me, Mario has to approach Snake. You don't have the freedom to fireball camp when Snake tosses a grenade at you. Grenades are MUCH harder for Mario to deal with than other projectiles because you can't automatically cape them back. While merely avoiding grenades isn't hard, camping Snake back WHILE simultaneously avoiding them, ESPECIALLY if he cooks grenades is much too hard to do against a good Snake. If you try too hard to fireball camp, Snake can and will punish you with his dash attack at some point. He's not merely a character that helplessly tries to bait you 100% of the time. He has options that beat yours. Usually your best option against Snake if he's grenade camping is grabbing him, since you know he's not going to be using his tilts while holding a grenade.

I wouldn't try timing out Snake with anything less than a stock lead. It's much too difficult for Mario to constantly run away from a Snake player that realizes that Mario's options for defending against most of Snake's attacks at best trade. You WILL get hit for more damage if you try too hard to camp against Snake since he has enough range on his options to punish the lag of fireballs. And while trying to float away from him may be a neat option for timing him out, avoiding his lingering and powerful aerials is anything but fun and easy against a Snake player that knows when to move when you have exhausted your escape options. His sourspot U-air and B-air are viable kill moves keep in mind. SDIing his N-air and D-air is good, but not something you want to count on if your opponent feels like reading your near-inevitable airdodge towards the ground.

Against Snake (and I know ThatGuy will agree with me if he comes by here), your goal is to approach him and make him suffer once you get in. Camping him usually is counterproductive and too difficult to do for the purpose of getting the lead.

Furthermore Snake doesn't suck on Battlefield. In fact going from my experience against Snakes, Battlefield I would say is a better stage for him than FD except against characters like Metaknight, Marth, and G&W since in most other matchups the platforms do more to help his recovery and control space vertically. There is practically no legal stage in this game that he is terrible on. RC gives him more problems than some other characters, but he's perfectly viable on that stage still.

 

[Inferno3044]

I meant terrible stage for Snake to be relative. Just like FD is a terrible stage for MK. It's not that they're bad on them. They just have much better stage options. I don't wanna get into another SWF debate on MUs. AIM me if you wanna hear why Mario outcamps Snake.

 

[Coolwhip]

I think all of us marios should talk about how to fight metaknight on rainbow cruz now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Snake does slightly better against Mario on Battlefield contrary to popular belief. That's pretty much what I'm trying to say.

I find it noticeably harder to kill Snake on BF since the platforms help his recovery more than they help yours. In exchange, Mario DOES get more damage options on BF (a lot of which I bet you don't actually know), but losing options to kill Snake with Up-smash reliably makes BF a worse stage to play Snake on for Mario, and before you say Snake sucks on platforms, platform drop B-air is no joke especially since you're not punishing him for staying on the platform with a kill move. Hovering on platforms to camp Snake is all fun and games until they realize outprioritizing you or hitting you out of your inevitable airdodge is a more than viable option. He can and will punish the slightest mistake you make severely, and that makes it very very difficult to camp Snake with anything less than a stock lead. Against Snake on battlefield, Mario has to go out of his way to stand on a platform in order to kill a recovering Snake, which is something the Snake player can definitely read and use B reversals as necessary to move to a safe platform where you can't kill him.

Mario's best neutral against Snake is FD for this very reason since Snake has the fewest options for avoiding Mario's kill moves on that stage (cover the inevitable B reversal at a kill percent and he's as good as gone). Smashville is the worst neutral for Mario to go on against Snake.

 

[SKidd]

And watch as no one is trolled by your post

****, I was wrong.

 

[Sleek Media]

Sorry, A2Z. Alot of what you say is true, but you're flat-out wrong about the grenades. These aren't Diddy's bananas, where you are CONSTANTLY under pressure, and have both physical attacks and chains to worry about at the same time. If you can count to five, you can beat Snake's grenades. It's exactly the same as dodging Din's fire. As long as you don't airdodge right into the ground, you can't be touched by them, even if two blow up at once. Your airdodge outlasts the explosion. Fireballs come out faster and more often than grenades, and you can get two or three off while he bakes a single grenade (which he pretty much has to do if he wants any chance of hitting you). Dash attack is not an answer to smart fireball camping because you are in the air.

Obviously, fireball camping isn't broken against snake. He can simply walk up and powershield them, but he's not going to beat fireballs with grenades.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fireball camping Snake works on wifi. In person? Not so well.

I'm not saying his grenades are going to hit you, because in an ideal world, they shouldn't. However the window you have to camp WHILE avoiding grenades is pretty strict especially since they are projectiles that cannot be shut down by caping (in fact item tossing is REALLY iffy against Grenades, while it's clearly much more powerful against Bananas). And the extent to which you get punished for making a slight mistake is too severe for actually camping Snake to be worthwhile without a stock lead.

If you have a stock lead, go ahead and try to camp him out if you're confident. But he'll get the damage lead very easily if you overcommit to camping in this matchup due to his much more damaging options to punish your camping as opposed to your options for punishing his camping.

 

[Sleek Media]

You just gotta know what you're doing. Like I said, there are much more dangerous projectiles out there. Grenades are as easy as timing your jumps and hitting the shoulder button. Maybe you just need to see it in practice.

 

[vato_break]

At higher levels the snake matchup is all about how well you are good at baiting him in and punishing him. Gimps are a little more reliable in this matchup as well. Still a horrible matchup though

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't consider Snake really horrible. It's an "unnecessarily" difficult matchup. It's made stupid due to how many more times Mario has to hit Snake to get a KO, and usually that's the reason why Mario loses since while he has tools to win the matchup, there is next to no room for error on Mario's part.

 

[Sleek Media]

Agreed, though I still prefer Snake to pretty much anyone else in the high tiers.