Mario's Metagame Analysis (Updated as of 3/06/2010)

[A2ZOMG]

SHD-air -> N-air/U-air is such an awesome shield pressure tactic.

Most people try to drop shield to punish the D-air, and then get hit by the next attack. However against the ones that do hold shield the entire time, make sure you landed behind them, and then try Jabbing. They probably don't have any out of shield options that are fast enough to punish this.

Yeah so I was just sayin'....

 

[vato_break]

Like i said it's best to mix everything up especially your punishments too.Sometimes it good to throw in "fake punishments" to make them think a move they're doing is unpunishable..Just a nice little mindgame i noticed many ranked players do.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oh by the way, about Jab cancel followups, first refer to this topic.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199907

Anyhow, we know that Luigi's Jab1 has a 5 frame advantage on Mario, and Mario's Jab1 has a 4 frame advantage on Mario, and that Mario's Jab1+2 has a 7 frame advantage on Mario.

So anyhow, look at the chart there and if you want to calculate Mario's advantages, I think you can get a rough idea by just subtracting 1 if you're referring to Mario's Jab1, and adding 2 if you're referring to Mario's Jab1+2.

If you go by numbers like that, Mario is able to Jab Jab F-tilt/D-tilt the entire cast in short. Then Mario's Jab D-smash works on the 15 characters that Luigi can Jab Up-B.

Of course, actual testing would be helpful, but for now, I think this is the best way of knowing what is possibly unblockable.

 

[Famous]

Wait... I thought B-sticking was setting the C-stick to specials... How could you B-stick without the C-stick?

By tapping B right before inputting a direction on the analog stick

Much of the cast has a high chance of getting hit with the Jab cancel-Downsmash setup like GaW...Though some of the cast can just hold the block button and perfect shield DSmash just before landing out of the jab...You have to substitute the smash for a grab sometimes

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Hey all! Ever since my run-in with Boss in friendlies, I've been very skeptical of most other random Mario's I face nowadays when they say they're good.

Anyways, the main reason I am visiting...

I was wondering if you guys could make use of this new AT with pikachu? I'm teaming with my bro (arc-thefallen-, plays Ness and Mario) and am going to advance the technique in the future. Here's the original post AND video! ^_^ enjoy!

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8104088&postcount=14

Maybe cape or fludd could add a dimension to the glitch? Also especally for Mario, the other Pika AT is possible... mix? 2nd AT : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3xzQvawR7E

Thanks you guys.

 

[Javon89]

Is this a good tech for the Jumpman style?
First short hop into the air and cape in reverse, then follow up with a B-air (two if you're fast enough).

 

[Inferno3044]

Is this a good tech for the Jumpman style?
First short hop into the air and cape in reverse, then follow up with a B-air (two if you're fast enough).

no cape. too laggy to combo with. It's use is to reflect, gimp/edgeguard, and you use it sparingly on stage to throw your opponent off

 

[BoTastic!]

The fact that it's laggy makes it a mindgame.

Also good for stalling mainly.

 

[Dusty]

I don't think its that good of a stall either. Depending on the char you face depends if this is even worth attempting. Also depends on the opponents style likk if they're spacing they wouldn't get fooled by the stall, aggressive they would just attack you instantly, defensive like they shield a lot like DDD or DK where that could work but the Bair would more then likely be shield grabbed.

Its not a good approach even for stalling. now if you just want to mix it up i guess it works for that reason.

 

[BoTastic!]

stalling offstage. >.>

 

[Javon89]

well i guess it was a bad idea.
Off Topic: Offline i can combo really nicely and fight against friends and own, but when it come to Wi-Fail when I lag my reaction time gets slower to the point were i can't even short-hop and my button commands responding slower, it's like switching from Melee to Brawl. It's almost impossible to win on Wi-Fail with my Mario.

 

[Dusty]

wait using the reverse cape idea of stage? I personally believe that's a worse idea cuz if they try to attack you off stage they would be effected by the cape.

Now using it while still facing them u at least get an opportunity to to cape them away or if your high enough fireball them.

 

[Javon89]

Yea I can see your point.... If we did that we would have a nasty attack coming to us, maybe a spike. but we still need to find ways to mix up Mario's game that could place us higher tournaments, and maybe move Mario up from E-tier.

 

[Dusty]

How about predication? Let me explain....

Say Mario isn't getting any better then this but we still want mario to get better. Well all me have to do is understand our opponent. Like their movement for example. Lets say Marth (note this kind of like spacing just more risky) He primarily attack with Fair and Ftilt maybe Nair to poke or space. So use SH while using fireballs to keep him back then he might use Fair to destroy the fireball while moving forward. Keep it up till its a pattern. If u watch closely enough u can see how far is his reach. then when u think u got it stop it and come in for an attack to push him back like Ftilt or jabs or a smash, or maybe even a grab to combo. then retreat back. and continue this again but mix in like a grounded fireball or a full jump fireball and see what happens. Eventually u learn exactly how he dodges the fireball or if he gets hit u know where he doesn't defend him self as much.

for there u try exploiting that one fault until he learns then push him back again. then somewhere use Fsmash to out reach his Fair to kill him.

This may sound very complicated but this is how i fight and i typically beat Marth, Snake, MK, basically all the high tiers using this method. Trust me it gets annoying until its a habit (which it won't be for awhile)

ssry for the long post.

 

[Javon89]

Read movement......hm I like the idea, usually I just play aggressively, maybe I can take your play-style in account, with those holes I can find, I can really punish my opponent. Thanks I'll try practicing it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S54mPByImY0

Watch it. I'm one of many people who's pretty much ignored this mechanic in Brawl.

 

[:mad:]

DASC looks pretty interesting, Mario seems like one of the characters that can take advantage of it. It can set up potential gimps if your name isn't ROB, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Meta Knight, etc.

DASC -> Nair seems promising.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Most importantly, this is a guaranteed setup into F-air and Cape indeed.

Sounds like **** against Falco.

 

[Inferno3044]

How about predication? Let me explain....

Say Mario isn't getting any better then this but we still want mario to get better. Well all me have to do is understand our opponent. Like their movement for example. Lets say Marth (note this kind of like spacing just more risky) He primarily attack with Fair and Ftilt maybe Nair to poke or space. So use SH while using fireballs to keep him back then he might use Fair to destroy the fireball while moving forward. Keep it up till its a pattern. If u watch closely enough u can see how far is his reach. then when u think u got it stop it and come in for an attack to push him back like Ftilt or jabs or a smash, or maybe even a grab to combo. then retreat back. and continue this again but mix in like a grounded fireball or a full jump fireball and see what happens. Eventually u learn exactly how he dodges the fireball or if he gets hit u know where he doesn't defend him self as much.

for there u try exploiting that one fault until he learns then push him back again. then somewhere use Fsmash to out reach his Fair to kill him.

This may sound very complicated but this is how i fight and i typically beat Marth, Snake, MK, basically all the high tiers using this method. Trust me it gets annoying until its a habit (which it won't be for awhile)

ssry for the long post.

Couple things I want to say to this:

1. This isn't complicated at all. It's just reading the opponent. When I'm playing a D3 and I'm in kill percentage, he is gonna try to land his most reliable kill move (Utilt). I expect that, bait it, and punish. A good player will do something to throw their opponent off guard.
2. This can't be relied on. There will always be factors so that the exact same thing won't repeatedly happen. For your Marth example: Marth's position, your position, if you guys are in the air or ground, etc.. There are so many factors in this. Also he will try to read you.
3. This shows more of how good the player is than the character. Boss and Famous are very smart players and are very good, but Mario is still low tier. Ally beasts with C. Falcon and can be a threat to top level players, but the character is still near the very bottom.

To show Mario's potential, it must be a group effort. We all have to get better, be able to fight top tier characters, and prove how good we are.

 

[PZ]

is the cape dash is when u use side b right when u get off n edge then hold the side ur goin to? cuz if not i found somethin new its very helpful against starfox n ppl who just stay away from u by flyin far away well theres no way they can escape bad thing is that u pretty much die if u do this perfectly

 

[condemned_soul]

DASC looks pretty interesting, Mario seems like one of the characters that can take advantage of it. It can set up potential gimps if your name isn't ROB, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Meta Knight, etc.

DASC -> Nair seems promising.

yeah i went to a tourney yesterday and tried to use it on M2K's MK and got punished horribly. i wish i read that post before i went to that tourney lol.

 

[fromundaman]

is the cape dash is when u use side b right when u get off n edge then hold the side ur goin to? cuz if not i found somethin new its very helpful against starfox n ppl who just stay away from u by flyin far away well theres no way they can escape bad thing is that u pretty much die if u do this perfectly

Ummm... a technique where you die by doing it right doesn't sound very helpful...

 

[PZ]

Ummm... a technique where you die by doing it right doesn't sound very helpful...

ik but it helps when u have nothin to lose

 

[DUB]

On a Mario+DK team, would application of FLUDDing DK's Up+ B to make last longer be viable for situations for edgeguarding or approaching in doubles?

 

[fromundaman]

On a Mario+DK team, would application of FLUDDing DK's Up+ B to make last longer be viable for situations for edgeguarding or approaching in doubles?

I wouldn't do it for edgeguarding, considering in my experience, I use it to make DK's UpB more punishable

 

[kirbyfan66]

What he said.

For teams, the best is Mario-Ice Climbers, right? Since there's a way to make Nana invincible to everything except throws?

 

[The Master of Mario]

"The most used aerial for this will have to be the U-air. It’s quick, has good range, and easily chained. It’s a simple beginner move for combo-happy Marios to take advantage of. Mario also has reliable ways to start off combos, which is something a large majority of the cast doesn’t have. D-Throws, U-tilt locking, and U-airs are moves to acknowledge. "

This may have been true in Melee but is a very inaccurate description of Mario's combos in Brawl. I would seriously consider revising this. Brawl is more floaty than Melee and because of this Mario's combos come more from the secondary hit-frames of his attacks. These are the last hit frames on Mario's fast aerials. He can use the later Frames on his N-air and B-air to lead into other attacks. These are his major damage racking moves in Brawl. In part because the PRIORITY of B-air and N-air is much greater than U-air but also because the knockback is less making followup easier at higher percents. Mario's combo game relies more on AUTOCANCEL frames akin to L-CANCEL frames in Melee so saving the U-air which cancels on the earliest frame is better for followups. Mario's combos in brawl for beginners should be:



**B-air->N-air**
(N-air is many frames faster than U-air/B-air thus easier to land)


Though there is:
**B-air->B-air**
(It can be difficult a first but the range is the best)



Moderate Difficulty(because of U-air's range compared to B-air)


Note: Blind is attacking while Mario looks away from the opponent


B-air->U-air
(Harder because it must get to frame 7-8 to hit
behind mario and has less range than B-air)
(The opponent may DI to far away for it to hit by then.)

Blind-U-air->B-air
Blind-U-air->N-air
Blind-U-air->D-air
(Manageable if you can get the U-air to hit, 3-4 frames of startup
animation after starting on frame 4)

U-air->U-air
(Hard because Brawl is floaty Mario will be descending while the
opponent is ascending on the second hit) (Mario's U-air takes 25
frames from the start and the appex of mario's short hop is around
frame 26. Frame 6 (Jumpframe1)+ Frame 25 (earliest attack frame)
means Mario won't get the second U-air until aroundframe 31 if it's
perfect otherwise it'll be closer to frame 35 when he's more than
1/3 of the way to the ground.)

U-air->N-air
U-air->B-air
(These are only useful when the first U-air hits a shield and Mario
moves from the front to behind the opponent in the air)

Hard Difficulty
D-air->N-air
D-air->D-air
D-air->U-air

(Hard becuase SH is only 40 frames with 6 frames of startup lag
so you have to press D-air before mario leaves the ground allowing
mario to do D-air at the start of the jump on frame 6-7. This will leave
an appoximately 1-Frame-window for D-air and U-air and about 2
Frames for a N-air.) (The only use these really have are suprising an
opponent who is shielding a D-air because if they drop the shield
during the 12 frames of ending lag you can attack.)



"A major weakness is Mario’s options on the ledge, which are pretty low due to his lack of range compared to the rest of the cast. While he does have a number of options (Ledgedrop > DJ > U-air; Cape stall; Wall-kick -> B-air; Ledgedrop > DJ > Fireball approach), those options are often easily handled by simply outranging it with good spacing."


You also didn't mention Ledgedrop->Up-special or Ledge->DJ->D-air which provide better priority and shield pressure than Ledge drop->DJ>U-air (which has 21 FRAMES OF LAG compared to D-air's 12 FRAMES). You also left out the INVINCIBILITY frames on Mario's ledge jump which is better than a ledge drop because you can use the INVINCIBILITY frames to launch a fireball safer than a ledge drop. Ledgedrop->Double Jump is inherently less safe than Ledge Jump that it should rarely be used because you usually waste the DJ. You also might want to differentiate between the different types of ledgedrops because pushing away from the ledge gives more options than fastfalling.

 

[HeroMystic]

This may have been true in Melee but is a very inaccurate description of Mario's combos in Brawl. I would seriously consider revising this. Brawl is more floaty than Melee and because of this Mario's combos come more from the secondary hit-frames of his attacks. These are the last hit frames on Mario's fast aerials. He can use the later Frames on his N-air and B-air to lead into other attacks. These are his major damage racking moves in Brawl. In part because the PRIORITY of B-air and N-air is much greater than U-air but also because the knockback is less making followup easier at higher percents. Mario's combo game relies more on AUTOCANCEL frames akin to L-CANCEL frames in Melee so saving the U-air which cancels on the earliest frame is better for followups.

No, U-air chains are easiest for beginners and in fact is Mario's most used aerial. Your numbers seemed to be pulled out of *** too. Plus if you read down further you'd notice I've already taken in account of N-air and B-air.

You are correct about Auto-Cancel, I'll give you that much.

But honestly, it's been about a year and half since I made this thread. It needs to be revised as my opinion has changed on a lot of stuff I typed up. But I don't have enough motivation to care about it.

Also, where in the world did Melee come from?

 

[The Master of Mario]

Had some free time.


STANDARD ATTACKS


First Jab
Hit: 2
End: 15
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 2
Advantage: -11

Second Jab
Begins: 8
Hit: 9
End: 24
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 1
Advantage: -14

Third Jab
Begins: 14
Hit: 20
End: 42
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 2
Advantage: -20

Up Tilt
Hit: 5
End: 29
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 3
Advantage: -21

Forward Tilt (same for all angles)
Hit: 5
End: 24
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 3
Advantage: -16

Down Tilt
Hit: 5
End: 34
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 2
Advantage: -27 (oh, dtilt)

Dash Attack
Hit: 6-23
End: 37
Shield hitlag difference
-Strong hit: 0
-Weak hit: 0
Shield stun
-Strong hit: 4
-Weak hit: 3
Advantage
-Strong hit: -27 to -24
(Strong hit switches to weak hit after frame 9.)
-Weak hit: -24 to -11

Up Smash
Hit: 9-13
End: 39
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 5
Advantage: -25 to -21
Discharge: 3-7

Forward Smash (same for all angles)
Hit: 15
End: 47
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 5 (6 tipped)
Advantage: -27 (-26 tipped)
Discharge: 10

Down Smash
Hit: 5, 14
End: 37
Shield hitlag difference
-First hit: 0
-Second hit: 0
Shield stun
-First hit: 6
-Second hit: 5
Advantage
-First hit: -26
-Second hit: -18
Discharge: 3, 12


AERIALS
Landed advantages assume the attack hit on the last possible frame before landing (totally unrealistic, but possible nonetheless), while regular advantages assume you are still in the air.


Uair
Hit: 4-8
End: 29
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 4
Landing lag: 10
Autocancels: ~17+
Advantage: -21 to -17
Advantage (landed): -6

Fair
Hit: 16-~21
End: 59
Shield hitlag difference
-Strong hit: 0
-Weak hit: 0
Shield stun
-Strong hit: 5
-Weak hit: 4
Landing lag: 26
Autocancels: ~44+
Advantage
-Strong hit: -37 to ~-35
(I'm not totally sure where the strong hit switches to the weak hit. Going to guess 19.)
-Weak hit: -36 to ~-34
Advantage (landed)
-Strong hit: -21
-Weak hit: -22

Nair
Hit: 3-~28
End: 45
Shield hitlag difference
-Strong hit: 0
-Weak hit: 0
Shield stun
-Strong hit: 4
-Weak hit: 2
Landing lag: 10
Autocancels: ~34+
Advantage
-Strong hit: -38 to ~-34
(Again, not sure where strong switches to weak. Maybe 8?)
-Weak hit: ~-35 to ~-15
Advantage (landed)
-Strong hit: -6
-Weak hit: -8

Bair
Hit: 6-~12
End: 33
Shield hitlag difference
-Strong hit: 0
-Weak hit: 0
Shield stun
-Strong hit: 5
-Weak hit: 3
Landing lag: 10
Autocancels: ~20+
Advantage
-Strong hit: -22 to ~-20
(Strong/weak problem again. Let's say 9.)
-Weak hit: ~-21 to ~-18
Advantage (landed)
-Strong hit: -5
-Weak hit: -7

Dair
Hit: 5-25
End: 37
Shield hitlag difference
-First hit: 0
-Last hit: 0
-Landing hit: 0
Shield stun
-First hit: 1
-Last hit: 2
-Landing hit: 1
Landing lag: 19
Autocancels: ~33+
Advantage
-First hit: -31
-Last hit: -10
-Landing hit: -18
Advantage (landed)
First hit: -18
Last hit: -17


SPECIALS


Super Jump Punch
Hit: 3-14
End: 40-ish
Invincible: 3-6
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 3
Landing lag: 30
Advantage: Ha ha ha.

Cape
Hit: 12
End: 35
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 3
Advantage: -20

Fireball
Action: 14
End: 43
Shield hitlag difference: -5 (you don't get any)
Shield stun: 2
Advantage: -22

F.L.U.D.D.
Action: 20/21 (water comes out at 20 but begins to push away at 21)
End: 66 (same for all charges)
Time to fully charge: 108

You can hit B to release from no charge at 19 frames, but the water doesn't affect anything until 21 frames. (courtesy of Amazing Ampharos)

Mario Finale
First Hit: 26
End: 179
Shield hitlag/stun: Goes through shields. TRY AND SHIELDGRAB THIS, DEDEDE.
Advantage: If you hit with this you don't need an advantage.


GET-UP OPTIONS


Get-up Attack 1 (fists)
Hit: 19, 25
End: 49
Invincible: 1-26
Shield hitlag difference
-First hit: 0
-Second hit: 0
Shield stun
-First hit: 3
-Second hit: 3
Advantage
-First hit: -27
-Second hit: -21

Get-up Attack 2 (legs)
Hit: 20, 24
End: 49
Invincible: 1-33
Shield hitlag difference
-First hit: 0
-Second hit: 0
Shield stun
-First hit: 3
-Second hit: 3
Advantage
-First hit: -26
-Second hit: -22

(Useless knowledge: which get-up attack is used depends on how Mario lands; if he's facing the sky after landing, he'll use his legs, and if he's facing the side, he'll use his fists.)

Get-up Attack (trip)
Hit: 19, 31
End: 49
Invincible: 1-8
Shield hitlag difference
-First hit: 0
-Second hit: 0
Shield stun
-First hit: 2
-Second hit: 2
Advantage
-First hit: -28
-Second hit: -16

Stand Up
Invincible: 1-22
End: 29

Forward Roll (facing side)
Invincible: 1-19
End: 35

Backward Roll (facing side)
Invincible: 1-24
End: 35

Forward Roll (facing up)
Invincible: 1-21
End: 35

Backward Roll (facing up)
Invincible: 1-22
End: 35


LEDGE OPTIONS


Ledge Attack -100%
Hit: 24
End: 55
Invincible: 1-23
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 4
Advantage: -34

Ledge Attack 100%+
Hit: 40
End: 69
Invincible: 1-44
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 4
Advantage: -25

Ledge Roll -100%
Invincible: 1-30
End: 50

Ledge Roll 100%+
Invincible: 1-55
End: 79

Ledge Stand-up -100%
Invincible: 1-30
End: 34

Ledge Stand-up 100%+
Invincible: 1-55
End: 59

Ledge Jump -100%
Invincible: 1-15
End: 19

Ledge Jump 100%+
Invincible: 1-20
End: 25


MISCELLANEOUS


Standing Grab
Action: 6
End: 29

Dash Grab
Action: 12
End: 39

Pivot Grab
Action: 11
End: 35

Grab Attack
Hit: 16
End: 23
Hitlag: 5

Up Throw
Action (heavy): 22
Action (light): 13
Average action: 17.5
End (heavy): 47
End (light): 27
Average end: 37

Forward Throw
Action (heavy): 16
Action (light): 10
Average action: 13
End (heavy): 33
End (light): 19
Average end: 26

Back Throw
Action (heavy): 53
Action (light): 31
Average action: 42
End (heavy): 80
End (light): 45
Average end: 62.5

Down Throw
Action (heavy): 22
Action (light): 13
Average action: 17.5
End (heavy): 47
End (light): 27
Average end: 37

Airdodge
Invincible: 4-29
End: 49

Spotdodge
Invincible: 2-20
End: 25

Forward Roll
Invincible: 4-19
End: 32

Backward Roll
Invincible: 4-19
End: 32

Short Hop
Begin: 6
End: 46
Landing lag: 2

Short Hop Fast Fall
Begin: 6
End: 35
Landing lag: 4

Full Hop
Begin: 6
End: 68
Landing lag: 4

Full Hop Fast Fall
Begin: 6
End: 53
Landing lag: 4

Up Taunt
End: 179

Forward Taunt
End: 79

Down Taunt
End: 89

Notes:
1. Advantage is the difference between when you can react and when your opponent can react after one of your attacks hits their shield. A negative advantage means your opponent has that many frames to retaliate after shielding your attack before you can do anything. Brawl has precious little attacks that are actually safe on the block, so advantages function more as a gauge of how punishable attacks are (although they don't take into account spacing or sliding while in shield).
2. Shield hitlag difference is the difference between your hitlag and the opponent's after your attack hits their shield. This is rarely different.
3. The amount of frames it takes for an attack's animation to end is purely visual, so all "end" values are calculated as the final frame before the attack is interruptible by another action. Add 1 to get the first IASA frame.
4. Anything with a tilde in front of it should be considered a close approximation pending further testing as laziness subsides.
5. The more obnoxious values to find like how long non-obvious hitboxes stay out or when strong hits switch to weak hits will be calculated when I feel like it (never) or if someone does it for me.
6. Shield drop lag is 7 frames. If the frame disadvantage is under that, they can only punish you with a grab or an up-B out-of-shield.
7. Discharge is the term I made up for the frames it takes for a smash attack to connect out of the charging animation. It takes 59 frames to fully charge an attack, by the way.
8. For throws, the heavy figure is based on Bowser and the light figure is based on Jigglypuff.

Thanks go to GCC for the incredibly helpful frame-by-frame code which I only discovered after I was 3/4ths finished and to 3GOD for helpful reassurance that calculating invincibility frames is supposed to be a pain and that I wasn't just missing something.


You ever get that feeling that you could be doing something better with your time?

The numbers are from this quoted site:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219407

And as you can see if you read carefully the advatage on the last hit of D-air is:

-Last hit: -10

While U-air is

Advantage: -21 to -17

Autocancel would only come into play if you waited before using the U-air because a jump > 29 frames

There were a couple other things:

"Dash attack is a risky move that doesn't bring a lot of reward. For a dash attack however, it gets the job done. It's quick on execution, has a nice amount of priority, and can shield poke. The Dash attack has primary and secondary hitbox. The primary hitbox is the first half of the animation when Mario is dashing forward. The secondary hitbox is when Mario is slowing down."


Dash Attack is risky if you attack an opponent on the ground but if you attack an opponent that is falling from the air to the Ground kinda like how Snake does DACUS it’s much, much, much safer. If you can get the Dash attack to hit during the final few frames it will only have 14 frames of lag (Yes only 14 frames of lag) while F-tilt has 19 frames of lag and JABS have 13-15 frames of lag. Plus, In the Air the opponent's Air Dodge won’t help the opponent much because Dash attack has so few lag frames and most are good priority hitbox frames. This allows Dash attack to be a combo starter if used correctly so that the opponent has no attack options while Mario is approaching.


“sends him/her slightly above Mario, which is the perfect opportunity for Mario to use a u-tilt or U-Smash (for the kill?).”


There are other uses for the weaker hitbox of Dash attack. It can lead into a quick D-smash or grab by turning around quickly or even a B-air. D-airs also work great after dash attack as can F-smash at higher percents. U-smash can kill but its probably better to use U-smash and just taking advantage of stale moves through the match. U-smash does 14% damage which is a lot for Mario and without that you’ll have more trouble racking up damage at least on heavier foes.


"He can go up to 70% and then use a B-throw to throw the opponent off the stage. That’s when Mario can get a gimp kill off. “


B-throw is not good for leading into Gimping because opponents can DI higher than Mario can reach with any attack. Then recover above where Mario would be able to knock them back. F-Tilt, D-smash and N-air are better because they come out faster especially on heavy foes.


“Right now, what seems to be the biggest problem for us right now in terms of comboing is the fact that we’re too limited with our list of combos. We need to understand the knockback and damage of each aerial, as well as our ground game, and see if we can make new potential combos that we can mix up to lower predictability. Oh, and those U-air chains need less abuse.”


The major thing Mario needs is to take advantage speed to make up for the lack of range. Using techniques like FoxTrot and DACUS, StutterStep can be very helpful. Slowing down opponents with advancing and retreating fireballs needs more emphasis because it can create more openings to attack. Throws have to be used more as DAMAGE RACKERS because they help with stale moves and B-throw does good damage compared to the rest of the cast. We need to get better reaction time so Up-B-Invincibility frames can be used to stop opponent’s approaches with aerials. We need to get better at comboing into Mario’s Grab Game because that is the key to better damage and combos. Grabs can easily lead into Techchase with Foxtrot->Dash Attack and Shield Grab and more combos or grabs. Yes, We do have to look at Mario's moves IN DETAIL and then look for advantages in the metagame.

 

[HeroMystic]

You are not understanding what I am saying. This is exactly what I mean when I said numbers are pulled out of your ***.

I'm saying none of this stuff looks tested nor has it been applied, as if you just threw a bunch of crap together and said "Hey, it works!"

There are incredibly small combos in Brawl, and the majority of them have to be done through juggles.

 

[The Master of Mario]

You are correct about Auto-Cancel, I'll give you that much.

But honestly, it's been about a year and half since I made this thread. It needs to be revised as my opinion has changed on a lot of stuff I typed up. But I don't have enough motivation to care about it.

Yes, it's obvious that the thread is in need of revising. It hasn't been updated in over a year and needs to talk more in depth about frame data and new techniques. Not even the frame data given goes deep enough into the timings of Mario's moves. At the very least a more in depth decription of frame data might help to find combos.

Also, where in the world did Melee come from?

Melee? The use of U-air so much as a combo starter seemed like Melee where all the characters fell fast enough that they couldn't escape juggling as easily. Mario also could cancel attacks earlier. The description of Mario's air game seemed too much like Melee and not enough like Brawl where Mario has a better D-air and B-air.

 

[HeroMystic]

Again, have you tested these "combos" yourself?

I'm not gonna input frame data and say "This works" just from word of mouth alone. In fact, the frame data given hasn't even been updated with IASA data which would make your arguments a whole new ball game.

If you want to add on frame data extensively, then update it yourself, because right now your advocation is nothing more but TheoryCraft.

 

[The Master of Mario]

"I'm not gonna input frame data and say "This works" just from word of mouth alone. In fact, the frame data given hasn't even been updated with IASA data which would make your arguments a whole new ball game."

Not really, because Tilts and Dash Attack would likely benifit from IASA frames. Ledge jumping would still be safer than Dropping and double jumping and D-air would still be safer on shields and U-air came closer to the ending lag of D-air. Even my estimate of the lag was generous assuming you hit with the last frame of U-air which obviously wouldn't be the case if you were U-air juggling or approaching with U-air as there would be 29 frames in between attacks and 24-25 frames of lag minimum this way while B-air-> N-air can have at minimum ~24 frames between attacks (obviously ignoring IASA frames).

"Again, have you tested these "combos" yourself?"

Everything with Dash attack and the Aerials has been tested.

 

[A2ZOMG]

...Read my guide to Mario.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248362

 

[HeroMystic]

I'll be updating this sometime this week. Probably on Sunday and onwards from there.

 

[HeroMystic]

Updated slightly. Moveset analysis is next on the list.

Any questions, concerns, or perhaps even a disagreement is welcomed for discussion.

 

[BoTastic!]

So far, I agree with the analysis. I'm also learned a few things. I didn't Mario's jab canceled dsmash does 21%.

 

[Matt07]

Agree on all parts.

Some new stuff too add for grabs should be

F->throw to Fireball, not too mention F-throw-> Fsmash on Spacies (I know it works with Fox...)
U->Throw, It's not as bad as it seems. I tend to use it more at low %'s as a mix-up, put's quite a few characters in bad positions, allows you too retailate.

Of course I've missed some things, and I don't know if you planned on doing Grabs in your update, but future things too write about.

Good stuff overall, I'm liking this.

 

[Famous]

Someone was discussing a semi-chain grab with Mario a few weeks ago...Well, I did some further research and found out its legit on some characters if you buffer it right...Inescapable and could lead to a happy ending off the ledge(Fthrow Fthrow Spike)...works on DK, D3, Fox, Falco and Wolf from what I've tested...and it only works at 0%...The person can only be thrown twice

I don't remember who mentioned the chain grab but I thank you...I think Kanzaki bought it up


EDIT-It must be a well buffered SHIELD GRAB, dash grab is hella slow...

 

[Matt07]

Very, interesting finds Famous! I'm going to practice this when I have access to my Wii .

Eat that Chaingrab, we can chaingrab you!

...Only twice though ...

.