Mario's Metagame Analysis (Updated as of 3/06/2010)

[Matt07]

Uhm I didn't want to make a New Thread about it because I don't know if this is 100% possible.

Mario may have a semi-chaingrab on heavy characters (Snake, DDD, Bowser, maybe others, but those are the three I tested.)

The untested chaingrab is with down throw.

1) Use Down Throw (duh.)
2) Heavy characters may not be able to jump/DI, giving you another free throw.
3) Re-grab, and repeat.

Another good thing is, if opponents don't tech the grab, you will be able to get a Jab Lock in. Anyways yea...I need some people to confirm if this is true.

 

[HeroMystic]

Sure you're not talking about Maylay? :o

I'm not visualizing it... down throw doesn't really have a lot of hitstun.

 

[Matt07]

No, lol it's Brawl.

Well it works on heavy characters because down throw doesn't have much hit stun like you said. Which is why you can re-grab them, because it doesn't give a lot of knockback. Yea, lol watch them just be able to jump out of this >.> oh well lol.

 

[KirinBlaze]

No, lol it's Brawl.

Well it works on heavy characters because down throw doesn't have much hit stun like you said. Which is why you can re-grab them, because it doesn't give a lot of knockback. Yea, lol watch them just be able to jump out of this >.> oh well lol.

I can imagen it working. Most players tendancy is to air dodge right out of the throw. If that's the case they'd just fall in front of you letting you re-grab them. While they may figure out they need to jump after the 3rd or 4th throw it still can work. I've done it once or twice to, like Matt07 has stated, only a few of the heavy characters.

 

[HeroMystic]

Okay then...

I can't test it because I don't have a Wiimote for my Wii. ~_~ So I think it'll be best if you can make another topic about D-Throw and see if you can get others to test it. I'll be interested on seeing how this goes.

EDIT: TBH I can't really see it working. If they're able to attack, then it's not considered a chaingrab. If it has mild success even with the possibilities taken into account, this can be a faux chaingrab.

 

[Matt07]

I don't want to make a New Thread until this is 100% true, it's because I don't want to build 'hype' and for it to be untrue, and you see where I'm going with this lol.

Yea, I set the computer to attack, and jump. And they couldn't break out at early %'s.

But a computer is not a human sooo.

 

[KirinBlaze]

Okay then...

I can't test it because I don't have a Wiimote for my Wii. ~_~ So I think it'll be best if you can make another topic about D-Throw and see if you can get others to test it. I'll be interested on seeing how this goes.

EDIT: TBH I can't really see it working. If they're able to attack, then it's not considered a chaingrab. If it has mild success even with the possibilities taken into account, this can be a faux chaingrab.

Of course it won't be a real chain grab, more like a tech chase but not quite that either. I'd call it more of a mindgame maybe? Since people I play with are so prone to the SHUair right after the Dthrow they airdodge, fall in front, I grab again.

 

[HeroMystic]

I don't want to make a New Thread until this is 100% true, it's because I don't want to build 'hype' and for it to be untrue, and you see where I'm going with this lol.

Yea, I set the computer to attack, and jump. And they couldn't break out at early %'s.

But a computer is not a human sooo.

Okay... try using evade on the computer.

Of course it won't be a real chain grab, more like a tech chase but not quite that either. I'd call it more of a mindgame maybe? Since people I play with are so prone to the SHUair right after the Dthrow they airdodge, fall in front, I grab again.

Matt actually is talking about it being a real chaingrab however.

 

[KirinBlaze]

Matt actually is talking about it being a real chaingrab however.

Then allow me to say that I don't think it can work as a true chain grab, but more as what I said in my previous post.

 

[Matt07]

I will further test this, record it (Digital Camera though sorry ), as soon as I get TV which should be in a few minutes.

Edit

Nope, it's useless doesn't work. I had Snake double jump out of it on the second one. Like a free 12% means anything.

 

[HeroMystic]

Nope, it's useless doesn't work. I had Snake double jump out of it on the second one. Like a free 12% means anything.

If only Mario's throws had more hitstun, eh? =/

Oh well, Mario is too good without them chaingrabs.

 

[Matt07]

I know if ONLY.

I was seriously hoping something good was going to come out of this, ah well.

And I agree, Mario is too **** good.

 

[Judge Judy]

Well, Mario does have true chaingrabs on all metal characters lol.

 

[vadgama]

N-air = Sex kick hahaha

 

[SSGuy]

great advice!!! ive been playing as mario forever and i learned so much from your post. obviously you are a mario pro!

 

[HeroMystic]

So... I forgot what I need to update on this analysis.

-Hippiedude's (or ???????'s) approach technique
-Doubles Analysis

And that's about all I can remember. Was there anything else?

 

[vato_break]

i would like to add that i use upthrow at around 70%+ to give me time to charge fludd.

 

[Matador]

i would like to add that i use upthrow at around 70%+ to give me time to charge fludd.

It works better than Bthrow?

 

[vato_break]

if i happen to grab in the middle of the stage i upthrow,i use backthrow near the edge.

 

[mariofanpm12]

Yup, Mario definitely needs to worry less about Top Tiers(and some High Tiers) and concentrate more on evening out matchups with the Low and Mid tiers.

Let's face it--Dedede and MK are just always gonna' be a very tough matchup for Mario. No point struggling to help it if it can't be. So instead let's worry about the lower tiers who we may have a disadvantage on but can easily do better against.

 

[BoTastic!]

Mario has an advantage over all the low tiers or is even with them. He isn't disadvantage to either one of them lol.

 

[Fire!]

Hopefully, this thread will get some extra attention since a new Tier List will be coming out soon.

 

[Matador]

The hardest matchup of the low tiers is between Link and Lucas. Lucas eats through just about everything and is difficult to gimp with that whole zap-jump thing, but I've never really had much trouble with him. He's not particularly speedy but has remarkable KO power.

I fear a good Link more than just about every low, mid, or high tier. Vastly outranges/outprioritizes Mario, nice jab cancels, Zair combos, nice projectile game, and a powerful character overall. Mario can gimp and combo him pretty well, but Link lives long. If he knows how to properly recover, he's definitely a force to be reckoned with.

Add this to the fact that getting matchup experience against these particular characters is difficult...and you've got a couple of tough matchups. Even at best for both...Link feels a bit harder though.

 

[HeroMystic]

ratio wise, Mario beats Link rather easily. I have it as 60:40.

In actual competition though, I agree with you. A good Link that uses ATs can beat down just about anyone in the cast except for the top tiers.

 

[Matt07]

IMO Link vs Mario is 50-50, very even and fun match. (If you want me to explain just ask =P.)

Lucas is pretty good too, he's down air is amazing at keeping my away, and his smashes are strong and have pretty good knockback.

Deva, Legan, Arkive, and Izaw are some amazing Link's you should check them out.

 

[Matador]

Yeah...whenever I get within Link's range, I'm not leaving without dealing some heavy damage. Comboing him is like comboing Ganon.

Matador tip of the day: If you cape Link/TL's bombs while you're facing backwards, you don't have to worry about them exploding on the cape impact. You still reflect it, but you don't blow it up.

 

[HeroMystic]

Deva, Legan, Arkive, and Izaw are some amazing Link's you should check them out.

I'm a High Tier Link.

Basically, if Link's recovery didn't beg to be gimped, I'd say Link would've been a high tier character. But his recovery is just THAT bad. You can't last one match without being gimped.

Stong on-stage application.
Good gimp tools (Arrows and Gale Guard)
Best Z-air in the game.
Excellent Space game.
Decent Combo potential.
TONS of kill moves.

But all that is debunked when you get inside, combo the hell outta him, get him off the stage, then gimp him. It's too simple to beat him when you get right down to it. That's why mindgames for Link is rather important.

 

[Matt07]

Wow, nice didn't know you were a high tier Link =P. You play him in tourney's?

Yes, the major part of the match-up is getting inside of Link's range, he does have a LOT of options for keeping opponents away, and approach. Problem like you said Mario's just have to get in his range. Unless you have godly DI like Arkive (>.>) then you shouldn't have too much troubling K.O'ing/gimping.

Didn't know Link had the best z-air? I thought it was Samus'?

 

[HeroMystic]

I have him as a back-up character if my Mario gets thrashed, mainly for DeDeDe.

Samus' Z-air is the best at spacing, but Link's z-air can be used for spacing, comboing, and edgeguarding.

 

[vadgama]

If you can get on the other side of links gale as its being thrown you'll get a nice boost towards him. Which is especially fun when its unexpected.

 

[Veggi]

I think Link mains start to expect that after a while of playing him. Especially against Falcon users. FALCON PUNCH

Come on, who hasn't tried a Gale Wind Falcon Punch before?

 

[mario brawler]

wow nice post hero,im sooo late, this stuff is really good
I can tell you put quite the effor on this o.O, this is really gonna help my mario

 

[fromundaman]

Quick note, though I think some/most of you guys probably already know this:

FLUDDing Lucario's Dair is just plain awesome, especially in teams. FIHL ellongates the first hit so that it lasts longer than the whole move usually should, then pushes him away quite a distance before he pulls out the second hit, which also gets elongated, but to a lesser extent.

I've caused a number of teamkills among my opponents like this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm a High Tier Link.

Basically, if Link's recovery didn't beg to be gimped, I'd say Link would've been a high tier character. But his recovery is just THAT bad. You can't last one match without being gimped.

Stong on-stage application.
Good gimp tools (Arrows and Gale Guard)
Best Z-air in the game.
Excellent Space game.
Decent Combo potential.
TONS of kill moves.

But all that is debunked when you get inside, combo the hell outta him, get him off the stage, then gimp him. It's too simple to beat him when you get right down to it. That's why mindgames for Link is rather important.

The problem with Link isn't just his recovery. His out of shield options are mediocre (okay, they are AMAZING against Ike. I'll give him that. But seriously? His Jab is on the slow side. His D-smash is cool, but still slightly too slow (and it isn't strong enough...seriously). His Up-B is also a little too slow and not powerful enough, and his jump and aerials are pretty slow. And his KO moves, except for D-air are all underpowered and usually better as situational damage dealers. His poor air mobility makes it difficult for him to space once people are past his projectiles.

His grab has good range, but is also on the slow side and if it whiffs, he gets punished severely. None of his throws combo or KO reliably either (although at least he has a good pummel).

Basically, Link doesn't have much that is extremely good. He isn't very good at edgeguarding since he can't chase his opponent and none of his stuff otherwise reaches high enough to deal with an opponent who DIs. He lacks KO power. His out of shield game is so-so. And his recovery sucks a lot.

If his recovery weren't awful, he'd probably be mid-tier at best. I mean, kinda the way Toon Link is. Toon Link has some neat stuff, none of which is amazingly good.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

The thing is. In a nutshell. You work with what you have, and what works. No different then a Captain Falcon focusing on Jabs and cancelling with grabs. It works, it's safe, and above all. It gets the job done.

 

[JUDGE]

good work hero!

 

[condemned_soul]

i would be surprised if you told me that you haven't been winning tournament. this info is point on......good job

 

[stealth3654]

Hey guys, this might be worth looking into for Mario: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240920. This might work for Mario because his cape alters his momentum (and so does FLUDD?).

The Fox boards already found a way to use this, too: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240983.

 

[vato_break]

this doesn't work for mario..

 

[SuSa]

Can you even B-reverse F.L.U.D.D? If so fastest aerial > Reverse FLUDD could actually help. <_<