Mario's Metagame Analysis (Updated as of 3/06/2010)

[HeroMystic]

lol, ironic. Good find, Famous. I'll be sure to mention it for everyone to see.

Smashes are almost done. Btw, I nominate that Jab-Jab-Dsmash be called the Breakdance Combo and Jab-Jab-Filt be called the PPK combo.

 

[hippiedude92]

A2 i think was explaining a semi cg before, l know he was telling me about always doing a jab cancel... wow mario has changed lol

personally think the styles should be removed or at least changed imo

 

[HeroMystic]

I know, the styles are kinda whacky for today's metagame. I'll see if I can salvage it and redo them. We still have different playstyles, just that the core of Mario is more refined.

 

[HeroMystic]

Smashes and Aerials updated. Taking a break here before proceeding to grabs.

So guys, Breakdance Combo and PPK Combo? =D

 

[Matt07]

I like the name for the "Breakdance combo, and PPK combo." I'm down with that.

Will read updates soon!

 

[A2ZOMG]

From my testing, I can only consistently get the F-throw chaingrab on Fox. Other characters seem to be able to spotdodge it if I recall.

If F-throw is stale, you can LEGIT CG him to about 30ish percent which is **** on walkoffs like Delphino.

 

[HeroMystic]

Moveset analysis completely updated. Please give feedback before I decide to move on.

 

[Famous]

It works on more characters if you buffer the grab well...It's just like D3's Shield Grab on Marth/Pit/etc

The only ones I'm aware that can't escape are the spacies and D3...Didn't work on snake since he can upb out..I can never regrab any of them a 3rd time...

 

[Fire!]

Somthing I noticed while making the Jab cancel vid. Jab combo actually does 9% rather then 10%. Jab,Jab, Ftilt does 13% and Breakdance combo does 20%.

Tested for like 20min on training and multiplayer and checked a couple threads too. Just throwing that out there.

Edit: Vid should be out sunday.

 

[HeroMystic]

That's what I get for using outdated guides and going by word of mouth.

Fixed though.

 

[Matt07]

Famous, I've tried the f-throw to fsmash on Fox, and he was able to Power Shield it, unless I buffered it wrong.

 

[HeroMystic]

Currently into other (non-smash related) projects that I've been putting this off.

Next section will be done in it's entirety within the week.

 

[Famous]

Famous, I've tried the f-throw to fsmash on Fox, and he was able to Power Shield it, unless I buffered it wrong.

Idk about fthrow to fsmash..Double Fthrow works though...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Famous, I've tried the f-throw to fsmash on Fox, and he was able to Power Shield it, unless I buffered it wrong.

It's 100% legit. If you do it right, it will state on Training mode that it's a consecutive hit.

 

[exdia_16]

i say fthrow the pivot fthrow then backthrow.

 

[Veggi]

If the fthrow is guaranteed, there is no reason to pivot.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

It's pretty sexy.

 

[HeroMystic]

Idk about fthrow to fsmash..Double Fthrow works though...

I just did it myself. It works.

Just buffer a pivot as you're performing F-throw and it's easy to do.

 

[HeroMystic]

The next section has been updated.

 

[Matt07]

Good stuff, Hero keep it up! I agree with things we should test out, especially Cape Jump. It's sooo good O_o.

I'm curious Hero, would a reverse Cape be able to beat Metaknight's aerials? A reversed Cape momentum makes you avoid the attack, and still hits him...hmm, something to test out? AKA, Glide Attack.

Also I agree on up smash, I definately don't use it enough lol, I only use it for kills, and never bother to charge it, DACUS it, etc. And the sweet-spot is debunked, huh . Kinda sad it has decreased knockback, but still comes out sooner so that's fine.

Anyways I strongly suggest rest of you read this.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's something that has always been running through my head, but I never really get the chance to do it. Florida really hates using Metaknight. >_>

 

[HeroMystic]

Pretty much updated everything else. Only thing missing is pictures, so all the information is there now.

 

[Flameleon]

-Good job, Hero : )-

 

[Veggi]

Does it say anywhere how to perform the ATs it talks about in the guide? Sorry if it does, but I didn't see it.

 

[HeroMystic]

They're in FireMario's video guide.

 

[Javon89]

Great section Hero! I've also tried the fthrow to fsmash it works well. I wonder if A2Z can teach me the Super Sliding Usmash, I haven't seen anyone use it.

 

[Big-Omar]

I use sliding Usmash to punish and as a follow up after Dthrow and Fthrow at low percents. Its also good to kill when the opponet is in the air and you predict well.

 

[The Nutz of Norcal Deez]

I wonder if A2Z can teach me the Super Sliding Usmash, I haven't seen anyone use it.

If you're talking about the Hyphen-Smash, Just have a running start prior to Up-smashing and time it just right and you should slide pretty far. it all depends on the timing.

 

[hippiedude92]

didnt really read the upsmash part since im lazy, but it'd be nice to throw in that, it's really important that upsmash becomes of an importance in terms of killing against floaties and light weights since it does make kill differences and actually landing it, different or w/e.

 

[Calebyte]

Good stuff, Hero. I'm loving it.

 

[Judge Judy]

I think Mario's real problem right now, besides tourney rep, is that he has to rely on his Bair for decent range. It's not a bad thing, I mean at least he has a good ranged move, and he does have fireballs to help, but I feel like his lack of mixups for ranged moves is what's hurting him right now. Mario's Bair is pretty fast and lagless to the point of being able to instantly FF and buffer directly into jabs, but it would help if he didn't have to overly rely on it. Mario's Bair might be enough if it came out about 2 frames faster, but 6 frames means it'll be used a lot like how most characters use 6 frame Bairs, or possibly how MK uses his Fair. Just some food for thought, because that is honestly Mario's largest flaw right now.

People tend to generalize the fact that Mario has poor range overall to the point of forgetting that he has any ranged moves at all, but the fact is that Mario simply lacks a good variety of ranged moves. I really wish Bair was all that Mario needs, cause it is close to being that since it's so safe, but without at least some kind of reliable mixup with similar range Mario will be held back, or at least become more and more unpopular. Mario has potential to be great, but there really needs to be a solid strategy to keep him less linear. I mean honestly, someone with frame advantages that rival MK's does not deserve low tier.

 

[HeroMystic]

I think Mario's real problem right now, besides tourney rep, is that he has to rely on his Bair for decent range. It's not a bad thing, I mean at least he has a good ranged move, and he does have fireballs to help, but I feel like his lack of mixups for ranged moves is what's hurting him right now. Mario's Bair is pretty fast and lagless to the point of being able to instantly FF and buffer directly into jabs, but it would help if he didn't have to overly rely on it. Mario's Bair might be enough if it came out about 2 frames faster, but 6 frames means it'll be used a lot like how most characters use 6 frame Bairs, or possibly how MK uses his Fair. Just some food for thought, because that is honestly Mario's largest flaw right now.

People tend to generalize the fact that Mario has poor range overall to the point of forgetting that he has any ranged moves at all, but the fact is that Mario simply lacks a good variety of ranged moves. I really wish Bair was all that Mario needs, cause it is close to being that since it's so safe, but without at least some kind of reliable mixup with similar range Mario will be held back, or at least become more and more unpopular. Mario has potential to be great, but there really needs to be a solid strategy to keep him less linear. I mean honestly, someone with frame advantages that rival MK's does not deserve low tier.

By ranged moves, I guess you mean spacing moves. Well besides B-air, F-tilt and U-tilt/U-Smash are good spacing moves as well, and U-tilt/U-Smash actually beats a high majority of aerial moves from the entire cast, barring any large disjointed moves like swords.

Now, if you mean approach-wise... yeah, Mario has trouble there. He really has no reliable way to approach a target where it'd work 100% of the time. He basically has to weasel his way in through mildly effective methods like shield pressure and FLUDD, but none of them are 100% foolproof.

Mario was pretty much made with balance and simplicity in mind. He has his obvious flaws and obvious strengths. I won't nessecarily say range is his largest flaw, but it's definitely one of them. If Mario had something like Fox's speed or Wario's aerial movement it wouldn't really matter though. Mario overall just demands patience and being passive aggressive. His only drastic flaw is a lack of an easy button. Every fight basically has to be fought with 100% focus due to him not having an extreme like DDD's grabs or Ike's power.

But meh, I'm rambling again. To conclude, the lack of range attacks is a flaw but certainly isn't the biggest. It's easy to get around, but it's a combination of flaws that doesn't make him the best.

BTW, nice to see you posting again, J.J.

 

[Judge Judy]

By ranged moves, I guess you mean spacing moves. Well besides B-air, F-tilt and U-tilt/U-Smash are good spacing moves as well, and U-tilt/U-Smash actually beats a high majority of aerial moves from the entire cast, barring any large disjointed moves like swords.

Yeah, I tend to be sloppy in my writing.

Now, if you mean approach-wise... yeah, Mario has trouble there. He really has no reliable way to approach a target where it'd work 100% of the time. He basically has to weasel his way in through mildly effective methods like shield pressure and FLUDD, but none of them are 100% foolproof.

I'd still say Bair is about as close as you're going to get, with a few fireballs mixed in. To make myself more clear, Mario has good close-up pressuring moves, and decent long ranged moves, but he lacks good mid range moves with Bair being just about his only one. It is also possible to avoid getting grabbed out of it if you're only hitting with the end of it and taking extra care not to accidently DI towards your opponent at that point.

BTW, nice to see you posting again, J.J.

Thx, took a beak for a while.

 

[HeroMystic]

B-air and F-tilt are as close as you're going to get to mid-range moves (F-tilt is capable of poking out grab range for a majority of characters). B-air is far better though, but F-tilt is capable of locking due to IASA frames, and thus more poke damage.

To be honest shieldgrabs don't really bother me anymore. With the shield pressure methods and spacing moves, it's realistic to avoid them the majority of the time unless you're going up against someone like Olimar. The real problem stems from people just simply outranging your moves, period, or having a considerably strong defensive game.

 

[Judge Judy]

Agreed, but any ideas on how to get around this problem? As far as me, I still think there's a lot more that could be done with fireballs.

 

[HeroMystic]

There's a few methods, the most obvious one being camping. Fireball-wise, you can exploit their shield when they PS fireballs, and you approach with D-air to apply shield pressure then exploit shield pokes.

You can also apply vertical spacing with B-air, where you approach and attack at a 90 degree angle. This actually beats a lot of options, but opponents that can angle up their F-tilt or having a wide-range U-tilt (or U-Smash) can beat it.

Then there's of course Cape Jump. The versatility on this tech is pretty amazing. Fake-outs, intercepting aerial movement, reflects projectiles, and capable of shield-poking to reverse opponents.

 

[Judge Judy]

As far as fireball approaching goes, I've been using the first 2 hits of the jab combo to poke and then cancel into whatever. If they try to DI up or forward from the 2 hit jab they'll be setup for a possible Dsmash or something faster with about the same range, if they DI away, they'll be far enough away for you to avoid punishment but still be close enough for you to possibly land a normal Fsmash or whatever.

 

[Matt07]

I found a new little technique for Mario...

You know how Diddy can cancel his Peanut Popgun animation, and throw a Naner? Mario can do the same with FLUDD. It's super easy to do. Just charge FLUDD, then throw the Naner into the opposite direction.

 

[Flameleon]

-On the ground, yeah, just charge Fludd, and then press Shield and fast use any way to throw the naner(throw glitch, dribble, normal throw, etc) and there u go...-

 

[Matt07]

You don't need to shield it to throw it, you just cancel the charging animation when you throw the banana. But if you mean for using it as mindgames, then that'd work too.