Mario's Metagame Analysis (Updated as of 3/06/2010)

[Inferno3044]

Agreed, though I still prefer Snake to pretty much anyone else in the high tiers.

There are a good amount of characters I'd rather fight besides Snake. I'd rather fight Diddy, Wario (with Luigi), Lucario, Pikachu, G&W and maybe ICs and Falco. Although I played the ICs MU only once in tournament, I feel like I got the basic idea of how to play it. Snake isn't that hard. It's a 4:6 MU.

 

[Sleek Media]

Ugh...Falco? I hate him and his ridiculous chaingrab. Free 40%-50% is inexcusable on the part of the designers.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falco I believe is technically a worse matchup than Snake, but not because of the chaingrab. Falco is a much more difficult character to approach and pin down, and if he knows the matchup, he's also very difficult to combo and edgeguard.

Falco essentially can fundamentally do everything Snake can, except it's a million times safer, but kills you about 50% later. The only better thing about fighting Falco is counterpicking him to Brinstar basically. Other than that he's by far infinitely more demoralizing and gayer to fight against.

I've played DEHF before and my sparring partner mained both Snake and Falco. A good Falco makes Snake look like a cakewalk.

 

[Inferno3044]

I was talking more on a personal level. I just get really annoyed fighting Snake because it's annoying to land kills against good Snakes and dies at like 50% or more than Falco. Pierce has a good Falco and he knows the Mario MU really well AND he knows my habits. I've played other Falco's in tourney and I felt more confident against and I think I could've beaten one if I didn't fish for the kill (learned my lesson there) so I feel much more comfortable fighting Falco than Snake. The fact that Snake doesn't die aggravates me.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

The worst is when hes at 150% and you're at 120%. You have no approaches and he can just dacus or something unpunishable like that

 

[A2ZOMG]

Personally I find the fact that Falco doesn't die aggravates me. Even if I can do various stuff to him, if he so chooses to be extra gay and doesn't screw up or otherwise fall for one of my shenanigans, I can't kill him because he can run away from my attempts. And his F-smash is able to legitimately bait a lot of Mario's stuff since it slightly outranges Mario's reverse F-smash, which is especially annoying if I'm at a range where I can be killed. It's actually a lot gayer than approaching a Snake who is camping with U-tilt, since his U-tilt can be bait punished when you get into F-smash range. Falco's F-smash on the other hand, you have to actually stand outside of your F-smash range in order to bait punish it.

Snake actually dies pretty easily against Mario the way I see it. You just can't make very many mistakes while getting him to KO damage, but when he actually has KO damage, he dies easily. But it seems not everyone is patient with KO percents like I am and most Mario users from what I find at some point make the mistake of staling both D-smash and U-smash before an opponent can be killed. Personally me, I have a knack for being able to kill heavies at 120-130% when I make a good read. Whenever I land a kill move, I generally know for certain it will kill.

 

[Sleek Media]

God, I hate Falco so much. Everything about him is so cheap.

Anyway, does anyone know the timing for caping the illusion? Do you have to reverse cape it or something? I can never seem to land it...FLUDD works pretty well, though.

 

[vato_break]

Falco's jab defeats mario's whole ground game except maybe a spaced fsmash, it's really ********.

The easiest parts to cape falco's illusion are the begining and the end of it. You can cape it during the middle but, i think you have to predict he's going to do it. As in you have to whiff cape first before he illusions. One thing you can do is condition them to illusion onto platforms(pressure on ledge and punishing the illusion's on stage in general will condition them.) you can actually fludd them in the direction they are going to pretty much push them offstage with fludd.

As for snake. Dthrow ***** the **** out of mario and rolling in general does too. Snake punishes mario's recovery VERY hard. If you get hit off stage you are taking alot more damage or you are getting gimped. Thats why i think the matchup is horrible and for the fact snake can camp you all day and camping him back isn't very good. He counters mario's approaches and you put your self at great risk by actually approaching. Only vaible play mario has is in the air and it's really hard to get in/get snake in the air.

 

[HeroMystic]

Don't have much problem with Snakes.

I agree with the synopsis of Falco though.

 

[vato_break]

well i have trouble beating JonTs and Halls snake. They just cover my recovery options, it's really hard.

 

[UberMario]

Anyway, does anyone know the timing for caping the illusion? Do you have to reverse cape it or something? I can never seem to land it...FLUDD works pretty well, though.

The best time is the beginning of the attack [during the startup lag], but usually in order to hit it at that point you have to follow your prey off the stage and be in their face. If they use their mid-air jump they'll likely be forced to use a special, which is your cue to cape them. If they go Fire Falco you shoud attempt to return to the stage since if you cape it during the startup lag they can still return to their original direction. If you have insanely good timing you can reflect them in the middle of the attack, but the spike effect will still connect with you, so FLUDD is usually the safer option in that case. It's more effective too.

 

[BSP]

Falco can't juggle Mario wwith Jab 1 and 2 can he?

He is such a gay matchup. Both Mario Bros. have trouble with the bird. It also really sucks that he completely kills fireballs onstage with his stupid fast and disjointed reflector :/

 

[Luxor]

Mario Uncharged Usmash
9-14 Hit
42 FAF (First actionable frame, ~IASA)
9-14 Invincible

For you, mariobrouser. Invincible during every hitframe. Have fun breaking through nados.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

So basically... it in a way "clashes" or beats anything?

 

[BSP]

Allright, no excuses for getting hit by snake FF'ing a bair. We do in fact have invincibility on our Usmash. Abuse it people.

 

[Luxor]

So basically... it in a way "clashes" or beats anything?

No. It's invincible. It doesn't clash, Mario's head just can't get hit. Like it's gone.

 

[BSP]

Thanks by the way.

This applies to Luigi too since most Mario users use Luigi too.

 

[Sleek Media]

What? Invincibility frames on upsmash? Mario's body still has hurtboxes during the attack though, right?

 

[Luxor]

HiS head is invincible the indicated frames. The rest of him is still vulnerable, but you can power through anything above you.

 

[Sleek Media]

Gah...that's not going to help against anyone with a sword. In fact, I'm not sure how using usmash as an anti-air is gonna help all that much, especially since we need it fresh to kill...

 

[Luxor]

You could use the invincibility frames to hit through something for the kill. IDK though, I just find the data. It's up to you to use it.

 

[Inferno3044]

Gah...that's not going to help against anyone with a sword. In fact, I'm not sure how using usmash as an anti-air is gonna help all that much, especially since we need it fresh to kill...

It doesn't need to be relied on to kill. If it works really well against a character then I'd use it for massive damage racking than a kill. Or if they're really heavy and probably won't die from it anyways. I can use Dsmash or Fsmash to kill.

 

[Naisora]

My style of beating Snake is semi- camping him a bit imo, then, approach and use your ground game to wreck him.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario Uncharged Usmash
9-14 Hit
42 FAF (First actionable frame, ~IASA)
9-14 Invincible

For you, mariobrouser. Invincible during every hitframe. Have fun breaking through nados.

HiS head is invincible the indicated frames. The rest of him is still vulnerable, but you can power through anything above you.

This is very useful information, and strengthens the point of using U-Smash for Anti-Air and juggles. Thanks.

Gah...that's not going to help against anyone with a sword. In fact, I'm not sure how using usmash as an anti-air is gonna help all that much, especially since we need it fresh to kill...

If you're trying to keep all your moves "fresh", urdoinitwrong.

You do not need U-Smash for it to be fresh in order to kill. It just needs to never go stale. You're essentially holding yourself back trying to not use moves that beat the situation.

It's more important to not take damage instead of giving damage.

 

[Calebyte]

That is very useful info, I wasn't aware usmash had invincible frames, I just thought it had high priority. Good stuff, definitely gonna work on my up-smash game!

 

[HeroMystic]

*refrains from saying "I Told You So"* Frame Data is nice eh? Also, updated U-Smash.

 

[Matt07]

Wow this is really awesome to know about u-smash, very nice find, Luxor ^_^.

Also: hi, Hero .

 

[Sleek Media]

If you're trying to keep all your moves "fresh", urdoinitwrong.

You do not need U-Smash for it to be fresh in order to kill. It just needs to never go stale. You're essentially holding yourself back trying to not use moves that beat the situation.

In what case is usmash your only option? Unless you're using it to build damage within the first 35% or so, have fun trying to KO with it under 100%.

 

[HeroMystic]

In what case is usmash your only option? Unless you're using it to build damage within the first 35% or so, have fun trying to KO with it under 100%.

You have a lot to learn, young padawan. Did you even read the analysis? Since I'm rather bored right now I'll enlighten you.

Your best Anti-Air options are U-Smash and U-tilt. U-tilt has to be spaced and U-Smash has a great disjoint as well as the recently confirmed Invincibility frames (at the head). You also have U-air. However that is riskier since you're aerial and quite frankly the disjoint on U-air is miniscule at best.

U-Smash is your best bet. Why? Because it's absolute. It easiest to hit with, has the highest margin of error due to it's disjoint and invincibility, and it covers most of the upper area of Mario's hurtbox, so it's essentially a shield to prevent opponents from hurting Mario.

have fun trying to KO with it under 100%

Avoiding Damage is more important than Giving Damage​

A smarter way of saying don't run into ****. I still see a lot of Marios go offensive, then get destroyed because they can't get inside, so I believe this needs to be made clear. Spacing, defense, and knowing what works are far more important then hoping you'll get that U-air off, and hoping you'll be able to land in front of the opponent to attack.

This goes hand-in-hand with avoiding KOs. If you know it works, do it, but one needs to realize that getting hungry for the KO won't do Mario any good. If you have to wait till 200% to score a KO, then do so. As long as you have less damage and up in stocks, you don't need to be going out of your safe zone.

Nevermind under most conditions you can't KO with U-Smash under 100% unless it's fully charged.

EDIT: I just comprehended your post and notice you're talking about U-Smash being your only option for kills. I never said that. Re-read the analysis on U-Smash, then what I posted to you.

 

[Luxor]

Mario's Dsmash is like frame 5 or 6 or whatever anyway

Thanks for the thanks guys.

 

[SKidd]

Thanks for the thanks for the thanks Lux


I bid you good day.

 

[Coolwhip]

I love the update on the u-smash. One question?
Does mario's reverse u-smash gives more damage? some ppl say that the back of mario's head
is the sweet spot. *ponders*

 

[HeroMystic]

No, the "Sweetspot" myth was created because we Mario mains didn't have a better term for it.

A Reverse U-Smash just has (slightly) larger range and comes out faster.

 

[Coolwhip]

No, the "Sweetspot" myth was created because we Mario mains didn't have a better term for it.

A Reverse U-Smash just has (slightly) larger range and comes out faster.

My god, all this time i was fool. Thanks for telling me hero.
And i know da reverse u-smash has a larger range & a bigger hitbox.

<-- Da Bess

 

[SKidd]

Can anyone give me tips on my Nair and Dsmash game?

 

[HeroMystic]

Like what? N-air is mostly used as a wall and D-Smash is mostly used as a spacing tech, though the analysis shows they have more uses.

What exactly do you wish to improve on?

 

[SKidd]

I wish to improve my nair and dair game
How do I use these? When, where, without being punished, etc.


They appear as very useful moves.

 

[Inferno3044]

I wish to improve my nair and dair game
How do I use these? When, where, without being punished, etc.


They appear as very useful moves.

A good way to use Nair is to sourspot it to clip character's jumps. If you clip the jump of a character with a bad recovery (Spacies, Ness/Lucas, etc) your chances of gimping them is better.

 

[HeroMystic]

The question is too broad honestly. I could type of an essay on how to use N-air and D-air/D-Smash (though I already did).

How do you use N-air and D-air now would be a good start to allow me to give tips.

 

[Sleek Media]

You have a lot to learn, young padawan. Did you even read the analysis? Since I'm rather bored right now I'll enlighten you.

Your best Anti-Air options are U-Smash and U-tilt. U-tilt has to be spaced and U-Smash has a great disjoint as well as the recently confirmed Invincibility frames (at the head). You also have U-air. However that is riskier since you're aerial and quite frankly the disjoint on U-air is miniscule at best.

U-Smash is your best bet. Why? Because it's absolute. It easiest to hit with, has the highest margin of error due to it's disjoint and invincibility, and it covers most of the upper area of Mario's hurtbox, so it's essentially a shield to prevent opponents from hurting Mario.





Nevermind under most conditions you can't KO with U-Smash under 100% unless it's fully charged.

EDIT: I just comprehended your post and notice you're talking about U-Smash being your only option for kills. I never said that. Re-read the analysis on U-Smash, then what I posted to you.

I hear what you're saying, but I prefer utilt over uair in almost every case. Utilt gives you a taller hitbox (the difference between hitting and missing someone on Battlefield platforms), and I think it comes out a little faster, or at least it feels that way. Mario's roll is decent enough that you can roll around some arials for refreshing jabs or jab->dsmash.

Also, I didn't mean to imply that usmash is Mario's only KO option, but there are enough stages/matchups where fsmash just isn't gonna do the trick where you may want to save it. Obviously if you can catch 3D or DK in a triple usmash at the start, you should take the ~32%, but if it's against light characters like MK, having early usmash kills might make or break your fight.

Anyway, it's just the way I play. I'm always trying new things, though, and I'll be sure to try usmash as anti-air. If it works, great, but I'm very concerned about how punishable a missed usmash could be.