Mario's Metagame Analysis (Updated as of 3/06/2010)

[Sleek Media]

Can anyone give me tips on my Nair and Dsmash game?

I like nair as an out of shield attack. It's fast, reasonably safe, and if you connect, you're gonna get the best knockback out of it that way. Like someone mentioned, sourspotting it isn't always bad if you use it strategically. Nair's priority is also pretty good...you can stop moves like falco's illusion dead in it's tracks.

I mostly use dsmash as a damage builder/punisher. It's fast. Like, MK's dsmash fast. You can kill with it when fresh, too. Fireball->dsmash is a beautiful ~17%. As you know, you can also jab cancel into it, but I'm not able to do that reliably yet.

Dair is kind of quarky. For me, it's the main shield pressure move. A few fireballs can weaken the opponent's shield enough to allow this to eat through. It's also possible to cross over with it to help avoid punishment, though it is not guaranteed safe. Dair is best when your opponent is trying to get some breathing room, and you want to keep on them. It won't do much damage on its own, but it can give you alot of momentum. Last hit is pretty nice too...even cancels the whorenado.

 

[HeroMystic]

I hear what you're saying, but I prefer utilt over uair in almost every case. Utilt gives you a taller hitbox (the difference between hitting and missing someone on Battlefield platforms), and I think it comes out a little faster, or at least it feels that way. Mario's roll is decent enough that you can roll around some arials for refreshing jabs or jab->dsmash.

I never advocated U-air being better than U-tilt. In fact it's the opposite.

U-air's advantage over U-tilt is the fact that you're aerial, which means you're mobile. You can't do this with U-tilt. In every other case though, U-tilt is the better option.

Also, I don't quite understand what you mean by the bolded.

Also, I didn't mean to imply that usmash is Mario's only KO option, but there are enough stages/matchups where fsmash just isn't gonna do the trick where you may want to save it. Obviously if you can catch 3D or DK in a triple usmash at the start, you should take the ~32%, but if it's against light characters like MK, having early usmash kills might make or break your fight.

This is true, but slightly misguided. "Early" U-Smash kills would be charged U-Smashes under 100%. Stages aside, no character in the game can be killed from a Fresh uncharged U-Smash under 100%, especially when taking Momentum canceling into account. You save U-Smash to make it a viable kill option, not necessarily to get an early kill.

Nitpick aside, you're correct about the difficulty of landing F-Smash and saving U-Smash for kill purposes.

Anyway, it's just the way I play. I'm always trying new things, though, and I'll be sure to try usmash as anti-air. If it works, great, but I'm very concerned about how punishable a missed usmash could be.

U-Smash is virtually unpunishable outside of powershields, and you can't shield in the air.

 

[Sleek Media]

I never advocated U-air being better than U-tilt. In fact it's the opposite.

U-air's advantage over U-tilt is the fact that you're aerial, which means you're mobile. You can't do this with U-tilt. In every other case though, U-tilt is the better option.

Also, I don't quite understand what you mean by the bolded.

What I meant was that if someone's attacking with an aerial that only hits in front of them, and you see it coming, Mario's roll is good enough to consider rolling behind them and going straight into jabs as an option. I never commented on uair, though I agree with what you said (at least in terms of anti-air).

This is true, but slightly misguided. "Early" U-Smash kills would be charged U-Smashes under 100%. Stages aside, no character in the game can be killed from a Fresh uncharged U-Smash under 100%, especially when taking Momentum canceling into account. You save U-Smash to make it a viable kill option, not necessarily to get an early kill.

Nitpick aside, you're correct about the difficulty of landing F-Smash and saving U-Smash for kill purposes.

Charged usmash is completely viable, and is one of your best airdodge punishers if you see it coming. Mario can do damage in other ways, so don't be wasteful. Save the usmash for when you absolutely need it. It's always that one tiny little bit of DI or whatever that brings people back from the edge and changes matches. I say do whatever you can to keep that from happening, and a 100% fresh usmash could mean the difference between sending MK to the stars or eating another 50% yourself.

U-Smash is virtually unpunishable outside of powershields, and you can't shield in the air.

You sure it's unpunishable? Just seems real laggy to me, like large range grabs and disjointed stuff would wreck you. Like I said above, I love charged usmashing airdodgers.

 

[HeroMystic]

What I meant was that if someone's attacking with an aerial that only hits in front of them, and you see it coming, Mario's roll is good enough to consider rolling behind them and going straight into jabs as an option.

This is dependent on fall speed and ending lag of the aerial. Rolls in general are actually very bad unless you're Lucario. Shielding, even spot dodge is a better option in nearly all cases when defending against an attack.

I never commented on uair

Oh?

I hear what you're saying, but I prefer utilt over uair in almost every case.

Charged usmash is completely viable, and is one of your best airdodge punishers if you see it coming. Mario can do damage in other ways, so don't be wasteful. Save the usmash for when you absolutely need it. It's always that one tiny little bit of DI or whatever that brings people back from the edge and changes matches. I say do whatever you can to keep that from happening, and a 100% fresh usmash could mean the difference between sending MK to the stars or eating another 50% yourself.

First, you're paraphrasing what I say in my analysis from the OP in attempt to look smart. Stop that.

Second, you either missed my point, or didn't read at all. That quote has nothing to do with what I said, at all.

You sure it's unpunishable? Just seems real laggy to me, like large range grabs and disjointed stuff would wreck you. Like I said above, I love charged usmashing airdodgers.

If you're not ******** enough to actually charge your U-Smash while the opponent is on the ground.

 

[BSP]

Nitpick aside, you're correct about the difficulty of landing F-Smash and saving U-Smash for kill purposes.

That'as another thing. Mario's Fsmash is stronger than we all think. It actually kills earlier than Kirby's Fsmash, and I'm sure you guys know how much it sucks to get hit by it at the ledge/in KO percent. We need to work on landing Fsmash more. It doesn't have Luigi level KO power and KB scaling, but it does have good power and range to compensate. Btw i remember doing it in a match once completely fresh and it did 19% angled up. We've got to land this more.

For mario's smashes in general, I use Dsmash for speed (and it's generally really safe. The pushback is great enough to avoid getting shield grabbed by D3)

Usmash for priority. On lighter characters without great momentum cancelling, it is a good option to save the usmash for a kill. But if you can use it to rack damage, go for it. Just remember to keep Fsmash or Dsmash fresh for the kill.

Fsmash for power at the cost of a little speed.

 

[HeroMystic]

Your general analysis is agreeable (and for the most part correct), but you may be overestimating F-Smash just a tad bit.

I too, emphasize the need to use F-Smash more for the sake of it's damage (which does more than any other move in Mario's arsenal) and due to the fact you can easily refresh F-Smash which minimizes the staleness problem that other Mario mains overrates to the nth degree. However, one has to remember the reason why F-Smash has to be used sparingly. It isn't because F-Smash is our main KO move, but because the move is very punishable if used incorrectly. A whiffed F-Smash leaves Mario wide open to get to get damaged or worse yet KO'd.

If it weren't for the high lag at the end of F-Smash, Mario would be using it just as much as Luigi uses his.

 

[Sleek Media]

This is dependent on fall speed and ending lag of the aerial. Rolls in general are actually very bad unless you're Lucario. Shielding, even spot dodge is a better option in nearly all cases when defending against an attack.

Oh?

First, you're paraphrasing what I say in my analysis from the OP in attempt to look smart. Stop that.

Second, you either missed my point, or didn't read at all. That quote has nothing to do with what I said, at all.

If you're not ******** enough to actually charge your U-Smash while the opponent is on the ground.

Dang, ego much? The analysis in the OP is good. Are you actually critcizing me for agreeing with you? That one sentence where I mentioned uair was supposed to be usmash. Just a typo, dude. Chill.

You know, I actually kinda liked reading your posts since not a whole lot of people know Mario too well, but it's disappointing to see you lash out like this. Remember, this is a VIDEO GAME. There is no wrong way to play it as long as you have fun.

That'as another thing. Mario's Fsmash is stronger than we all think. It actually kills earlier than Kirby's Fsmash, and I'm sure you guys know how much it sucks to get hit by it at the ledge/in KO percent. We need to work on landing Fsmash more. It doesn't have Luigi level KO power and KB scaling, but it does have good power and range to compensate. Btw i remember doing it in a match once completely fresh and it did 19% angled up. We've got to land this more.

For mario's smashes in general, I use Dsmash for speed (and it's generally really safe. The pushback is great enough to avoid getting shield grabbed by D3)

Usmash for priority. On lighter characters without great momentum cancelling, it is a good option to save the usmash for a kill. But if you can use it to rack damage, go for it. Just remember to keep Fsmash or Dsmash fresh for the kill.

Fsmash for power at the cost of a little speed.

The problem with fsmash isn't it's power, it's the speed. You pretty much have to catch someone by surprise with it - it's not like alot of smashes where you can just keep throwing em out until the opponent slips and you land one. I remember seeing somewhere that you can throw some heavy characters into a reverse fsmash at 0%.

In my opinion, the reason it's not used as much for KOs is because it's less reliable than Mario's gimps and other smashes. There is no FLUDD->fsmash for example. Maybe you could go cape->fsmash if the opponent's attack was laggy enough?

 

[HeroMystic]

Dang, ego much? The analysis in the OP is good. Are you actually critcizing me for agreeing with you? That one sentence where I mentioned uair was supposed to be usmash. Just a typo, dude. Chill.

Fact is, people respond better to more "powerful" posts as they tend to remember it due to the stronger impact on words used. If I seem "harsh", it's for that reason only, plus I like doing it.

In your case, you had doubts on U-Smash, I corrected them, then you made a good point on saving U-Smash, and I slightly amended it about why you save U-Smash (It's not for early kills, but rather to have a second kill option). Then you attempted to make a counter at basically nothing, which is why the previous reply popped up the way it did.

It puts a stronger emphasis on reading comprehension and the old saying "don't run into ****". A lot of message boards do this for a living and to be frank it isn't a bad thing.

You know, I actually kinda liked reading your posts since not a whole lot of people know Mario too well, but it's disappointing to see you lash out like this. Remember, this is SPARTA!!! There is no wrong way to play it as long as you have fun.

You ain't seen nothin' yet. You should've seen me on the tier list discussion.

And there actually is a lot of wrong ways to play the game in a competitive environment. Playing in a FFA with all items on high? No one cares. But when money, recognition, and the representation of your favorite character is on the line it becomes Serious Business.

I'll refrain from talking about Mario specifically unless you'd like to know, since I'd be stepping on oh so many toes.

 

[ThatGuy]

Against Snake (and I know ThatGuy will agree with me if he comes by here), your goal is to approach him and make him suffer once you get in. Camping him usually is counterproductive and too difficult to do for the purpose of getting the lead.

Felt like doing a random name search.

(Yes, I agree)

 

[Calebyte]

I've been re-reading this thread a lot lately. It's really great stuff. It helps to remind of everything Mario has at his disposal. Thanks for maintaining this thread Hero, it's really terrific stuff.

 

[Coolwhip]

I agree with everything calebyte just said. *smiles*

<---Da Bess

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I generally use Nair out of shield a lot. A rising Nair is relatively safe on block and can be used as a cross-up if the opponent blocks it. If the opponent decides to spot dodge you can just fast fall to hit him with the weak hit box [which combos into AAA] and if he wants to roll behind you Nair can still hit him because of it's hit box. If he rolls away you're in a safe position anyways.

Dair is a solid frame trap against aerial opponents. It outlasts lots of air dodge attempts and even if you use it too early to do that you can still punish the air dodge with Nair right afterwards. It's a solid option out of shield and a retreating dair is a good way to pressure shields while remaining in a backward motion from where you can follow up with fireballs [which can force another opening for more dair pressure or a grab]. I find both moves to be important.

I use fsmash after a whiffed bair - sometimes the opponent will shield grab on accident [great opportunity to check his habits] and the fsmash will connect. From that position fsmash is also quite safe on block as well because most aerials don't have to range to punish it [I can't think of one]. Only characters with a quick, long ranged ground move can fully punish it. DDD can ftilt and tethers can shield grab you but that's pretty much it. Angle fsmash downward to poke low health shields and upwards to beat or trade with predictable aerial approaches.

The information on Usmash is great but I wonder where you can actually apply it except against the tornado. Maybe a falling aerial can be beaten by a well timed usmash? It seems easier to time against long lasting moves like Snake bair or DK side B.

 

[Sleek Media]

And there actually is a lot of wrong ways to play the game in a competitive environment. Playing in a FFA with all items on high? No one cares. But when money, recognition, and the representation of your favorite character is on the line it becomes Serious Business.

The thing I don't get is, if you're the kind of person who only cares about winning the game, then why play someone like Mario at all? Either you care more about winning, or more about playing as the character you like best. I fall into the latter category.

And don't be so "stop having fun guys" about items or FFA or whatever. It's all awesome, and no less legit that the horribly broken character balance that exists under the tourney ruleset.

Anyway, I'll keep an eye on your posts, since as I said, you do know what you're talking about, even if we don't agree on everything.

 

[HeroMystic]

The thing I don't get is, if you're the kind of person who only cares about winning the game, then why play someone like Mario at all? Either you care more about winning, or more about playing as the character you like best. I fall into the latter category.

Don't be so naive. People play competitively for multiple reasons, and most of them fall under both those categories. I personally play competitively as Mario to represent him in tournaments to show the world what Mario can do at his very best. This is also why I make threads such as these to expand the knowledge to not just Mario mains but to all players.

You also used the trope incorrectly. If you wanted to label me as a trope, I'd be a Tournament Player. A Stop Having Fun Guy would completely disregard any other method of play, period. I only talk about in a competitive environment, where again, money and reputation is on the line. I have no quarrels against casual fun.

 

[Sleek Media]

Don't be so naive. People play competitively for multiple reasons, and most of them fall under both those categories. I personally play competitively as Mario to represent him in tournaments to show the world what Mario can do at his very best. This is also why I make threads such as these to expand the knowledge to not just Mario mains but to all players.

You also used the trope incorrectly. If you wanted to label me as a trope, I'd be a Tournament Player. A Stop Having Fun Guy would completely disregard any other method of play, period. I only talk about in a competitive environment, where again, money and reputation is on the line. I have no quarrels against casual fun.

I like to show how deadly a casual player can be. And I still say that supporting a single ruleset for tournaments is folly. The community would double overnight if we held item-supported tournaments and FFAs alongside the current offering.

 

[Inferno3044]

I like to show how deadly a casual player can be. And I still say that supporting a single ruleset for tournaments is folly. The community would double overnight if we held item-supported tournaments and FFAs alongside the current offering.

Competitive players > Casual players. This is because the competitive player learns how the game is played on an optimal level and makes overall smarter options. A casual player doesn't really know what he's doing. The only good in this is that he is unpredictable, but if you constantly throw out bad options and do punishable things, you'll lose. I'm not a person who is like "having fun is bad," but in a tournament you are trying to win. Basically the smash community put in rules because having every stage and item on is not on the level of a competitive fighting game. We allow some diversity with stage choices, but it shouldn't be something where a player can lose because of the stage.

I'm not sure what you mean by single rule set, but with context clues I'm guessing you mean 1v1. There is teams if you didn't know which adds a whole other aspect to the game. Items and FFA's are fun when you're not playing seriously, but not good for tournament. Although there is a possibility that community will increase, it might end up being a really scrubby community that only does FFA's and items. The rule set is for competition, not casual play. If you don't wanna play competitively, then don't.

Also, what bad character balance is bad other than MK being above everyone and Ganon being rock bottom? Most character have some sort of viability although some more than others, but that's how a game is. Some characters are better than others. That's for every game.

 

[HeroMystic]

I like to show how deadly a casual player can be.

There's two ways I can go about this.

First, I can say you're lying to yourself because a casual player in a tournament level play wanting to beat other tournament-level players with tournament-level rules with tournament-level strategies seems contradicting in of itself.

Second, I can just simply say you're a Scrub and leave it at that.

And I still say that supporting a single ruleset for tournaments is folly. The community would double overnight if we held item-supported tournaments and FFAs alongside the current offering.

Besides what Inferno(<3) said, there are item-based tournaments. Jack Kaiser supports them. However, they are not main events and do not count towards tournaments records.

Judging by your last few posts, I'm gonna assume you've never been to a tournament. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but it seems you're naive on just how competitive-level play works.

 

[SKidd]

Community > Game


hippie knows what's up lol

 

[Inferno3044]

Community > Game


hippie knows what's up lol

Quality over quantity. A community with 1000 skilled players is a better community than 5000 scrubs. If you really want to be a part of a competitive game's community, you'll want to become a better player by actually getting skilled and being able to fight in a 1 on 1 rather than tons of **** being able to happen.

FFA's are a lot of fun though not gonna lie. I remember at when I did a FFA with M2K, ADHD, and Malcolm on Mushroomy Kingdom World 1-2. So much fun.

 

[Sleek Media]

There's two ways I can go about this.
First, I can say you're lying to yourself because a casual player in a tournament level play wanting to beat other tournament-level players with tournament-level rules with tournament-level strategies seems contradicting in of itself.

Okay, you got me. I'm actually a manly player.

Second, I can just simply say you're a Scrub and leave it at that.

Somehow, I thought you were a cooler guy than this. Nothing worse than an elitist attitude in video games...that's just plain dorky. We're talking negative stereotype dorky. Come on, let's not be that way.

Besides what Inferno(<3) said, there are item-based tournaments. Jack Kaiser supports them. However, they are not main events and do not count towards tournaments records.

Who? I've never heard of a smashboards-organized item tournament. Just mentioning the idea here usually brings on tons of flaming. I'd like to attend one, though.

Judging by your last few posts, I'm gonna assume you've never been to a tournament. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but it seems you're naive on just how competitive-level play works.

*corrects you*

 

[Sleek Media]

Quality over quantity. A community with 1000 skilled players is a better community than 5000 scrubs. If you really want to be a part of a competitive game's community, you'll want to become a better player by actually getting skilled and being able to fight in a 1 on 1 rather than tons of **** being able to happen.

FFA's are a lot of fun though not gonna lie. I remember at when I did a FFA with M2K, ADHD, and Malcolm on Mushroomy Kingdom World 1-2. So much fun.

That stage has the best music in the whole **** game. Worth the trip just to hear it!

 

[HeroMystic]

Somehow, I thought you were a cooler guy than this. Nothing worse than an elitist attitude in video games...that's just plain dorky. We're talking negative stereotype dorky. Come on, let's not be that way.

Don't degrade yourself to ad-hominems.

Who? I've never heard of a smashboards-organized item tournament. Just mentioning the idea here usually brings on tons of flaming. I'd like to attend one, though.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164675&highlight=Jack+Kaiser

*corrects you*

If that is the case, then you're indeed lying to yourself and should look into another competitive game because this isn't for you.

 

[SKidd]

Quality over quantity. A community with 1000 skilled players is a better community than 5000 scrubs. If you really want to be a part of a competitive game's community, you'll want to become a better player by actually getting skilled and being able to fight in a 1 on 1 rather than tons of **** being able to happen.

FFA's are a lot of fun though not gonna lie. I remember at when I did a FFA with M2K, ADHD, and Malcolm on Mushroomy Kingdom World 1-2. So much fun.

What I was saying is the game sucks, and the community is really cool.

Arguing over metagames isn't worth friendship <33

 

[Inferno3044]

What I was saying is the game sucks, and the community is really cool.

Arguing over metagames isn't worth friendship <33

I wouldn't say it's bad. Smash as a whole is looked down on by the other fighting communities. It's very different though. Instead of trying to reduce your opponent's health bar, you are trying to knock them off the stage. It's very unique and I personally think other communities are just haters. I don't know the real reason to why smash is looked down and I really wish I knew.

Sorry for the misinterpretation

 

[HeroMystic]

I don't know the real reason to why smash is looked down and I really wish I knew.

I'd say developer's intent vs community wants. A lot of other communities don't see Brawl or Smash in general as a true competitive game.

 

[Inferno3044]

A lot of other communities don't see Brawl or Smash in general as a true competitive game.

This is what I wish I knew.

 

[A2ZOMG]

That, not to mention the perception that Smash in general is a game dominated by casual players/scrubs.

Although to be fair, you have scrubs galore for any competitive game.

 

[SKidd]

And then Brawl players...



Don't take Mario as a serious competitive character.

 

[HeroMystic]

They do, actually.

 

[Sleek Media]

I'd say developer's intent vs community wants. A lot of other communities don't see Brawl or Smash in general as a true competitive game.

I'd say it's people like you.

 

[HeroMystic]

Lol.

Greatest comeback ever.

 

[SKidd]

Hero is so mystic



and the girl in his avatar is kinda cute too i guess

 

[HeroMystic]

You guess? Unacceptable!

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c...rrent=An_Egg-hunter_Is_Hatched_03-18-2010.jpg <- Full image.

I might put the Rosalina avatar back up though.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

And then Brawl players...



Don't take Mario as a serious competitive character.

Take him srsly for low tier shiz.

 

[SKidd]

You guess? Unacceptable!

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c...rrent=An_Egg-hunter_Is_Hatched_03-18-2010.jpg <- Full image.

I might put the Rosalina avatar back up though.

For some reason, that had me laughing for like 5 minutes.




...seriously!

 

[Calebyte]

Grounded D-air has fixed knockback for any percentage so that can be useful to going ground options, particularly smash attacks.

Man this is so useful. I've been messing around with grounded-dair > ss f-smash. I don't know if it's inescapable, but it's pretty awesome.

 

[A2ZOMG]

D-air landing hit -> D-smash combos on the entire cast (will register a consecutive hit in training mode on everyone except the heaviest characters, who don't have options to escape regardless). It's annoyingly hard to land on some characters though (I think it's stupidly hard to land on Marth for instance). And the key thing about landing the combo is that your opponent has to be in the air before the ground hit connects, otherwise they will slide too far away for a combo to be possible.

D-air -> F-smash is pretty much shenanigans, but it can work. You can also combo into sweetspot Jabs and F-tilt easily from grounded D-air.

 

[The Nutz of Norcal Deez]

You guys aware of the wavebounce you get with F-Tilt? And the exntended range from a stutter-stepped F-smash? Well add em together! i know it sounds corny how i say it, but its a hilarious mind-game to see mario f-tilt the opposite direction then side smashing towards the opponent with a greatly boosted smash. It takes some getting used to but the extension is so worth it on the edge of characters with long get-up attacks.

 

[BSP]

Guys, remember that Dair covers rolls extremely well, and at low percent, a successful SH dair nearly garuntees a follow up uair. Most people won't jump away from it.

 

[vato_break]

Guys, remember that Dair covers rolls extremely well, and at low percent, a successful SH dair nearly garuntees a follow up uair. Most people won't jump away from it.

thank you very much, i will use this agianst the pros and win