Mario Questions and Answers; Ask here first!

[Inferno3044]

As long as you don't infract me for saying pineapple pizza.

 

[vato_break]

mario sucks, why?

 

[Inferno3044]

mario sucks, why?

Because the Sakurai didn't create Mario. He created MK.

 

[Matador]

I'm starting to believe Mario's not that bad. Like...mid-tier material. I just think we haven't been using him right.

I mean, he's at least as good as Ike and Ness to me.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I think he's eh.

 

[Juushichi]

That sounds like the definition of mid tier Xero. Ike and Ness aren't too far ahead. Plus, well. I think this game has a bunch of mid tier characters honestly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Matador, I've been certain about mid tier status forever given matchup theory. And yeah, it's honestly to be expected that we are kinda underdeveloped given that our character requires a rather high learning curve to make the most of.

 

[Inferno3044]

MU wise, Mario is definitely mid tier. It's the results that keep us down. Boss did very well with Mario in 08-09 and Kirin has been stepping it up recently but none of them have gotten as far as someone like San. Also it doesn't help that Mario has some terrible MUs vs. common characters.

Before anyone starts to meat ride Flameleon, someone post tournament results of this guy. I hear a lot of people saying "we should all play like Flameleon" but I have never seen results from him.

 

[Coolwhip]

MU wise, Mario is definitely mid tier. It's the results that keep us down. Boss did very well with Mario in 08-09 and Kirin has been stepping it up recently but none of them have gotten as far as someone like San. Also it doesn't help that Mario has some terrible MUs vs. common characters.

Before anyone starts to meat ride Flameleon, someone post tournament results of this guy. I hear a lot of people saying "we should all play like Flameleon" but I have never seen results from him.

I agree with everything you said inferno. I hope to start going to more tourneys
& placing well with mario & ONLY mario. Funny how ike use to be "L-tier"
but thanks to san, he made ike a force. Oh & the only person that said about
"We should all play like flameleon" is a2z.

I like to watch videos of top/legit well known marios. Copy & paste some part of
there playstyle & add it on to my playstyle. I wanna be the "Top Mario"
and i'd push my mario to a higher limit just like how san did w/ike.
I just need to show up to more smashfest/tourneys. to make that **** happen.

 

[fromundaman]

I have to agree with all of this. Mario is a bad character, but not as bad as some of the other low tiers (though to be fair, most low tiers could be bumped to mid tier, with a few exceptions.).


Just throwing this out there: I meatride both Flame and Kirin too. What can I say, I love seeing people **** with Mario, partially because it's fun to watch and partially because I can't seem to do it myself.
To quote a wise man: Just sayin'.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There was one tournament I think Flameleon placed 2nd in. He lost to a Falco.

 

[Inferno3044]

There was one tournament I think Flameleon placed 2nd in. He lost to a Falco.

I need an Inui style AIB medal case from this guy

 

[Matador]

You don't need tourney results to see that Flame is on another level than nearly any other Mario.

Like, it's pretty obvious to me that, even with his old videos, he's playing at a level beyond what our current metagame perceives Mario to be capable of.

Just look at how he does online. Yeah it's wifi, yeah it sucks balls, yeah it doesn't mean much, but after you're done regurgitating what the community has conditioned us to believe, you'd notice that some of our top players are where they are due, in part, to wifi.

And Flame ***** on wifi. He's always insane on ladder, does NOT lose the ditto (I've only taken him once or twice...) and just plays a more solid Mario than most of us.

If he went to ANY tourney in the US, I'd put money on him causing multiple upsets.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The beauty of Flame's style is I don't consider it unrepplicable.

While he doesn't limit himself away from improvisation, the jist of how he plays is beyond solid. It's also very non-gimmicky for the most part, based on sound and proven strategy and good implementation of required fundamentals. For a number of us it might be hard to match his level of execution as well, but his style best represents a full understanding of how competitive play works as well as the little quirks in this game.

 

[Inferno3044]

You don't need tourney results to see that Flame is on another level than nearly any other Mario.

Like, it's pretty obvious to me that, even with his old videos, he's playing at a level beyond what our current metagame perceives Mario to be capable of.

Just look at how he does online. Yeah it's wifi, yeah it sucks balls, yeah it doesn't mean much, but after you're done regurgitating what the community has conditioned us to believe, you'd notice that some of our top players are where they are due, in part, to wifi.

And Flame ***** on wifi. He's always insane on ladder, does NOT lose the ditto (I've only taken him once or twice...) and just plays a more solid Mario than most of us.

If he went to ANY tourney in the US, I'd put money on him causing multiple upsets.

I never meant to say he's not good. It's just people here meat ride him so much it's like he's M2K. He is definitely a player who knows the basics of Mario and the game very well. He chooses good options and makes good reads and punishes, but I don't think that he would make that many upsets at a large tournament in a strong region. I just watched him on youtube against Lil' G in the ditto 4 times. Lil' G won twice and could've won 3 imo. Does Mexico have a PR?

Lil' G if you read this, step up your punishes. There were times where you had free punishes and you just either didn't punish or chose a bad punish option. Just to say one, Flameleon used UpB and missed. What you should've done was either hit him with Usmash or turn around Fsmash and he would've died. Instead you chose to hit him with the back hit of Dsmash. Soon later he trips. You read the roll correctly and instead of punishing with a kill move, you used a sour Nair. You would be so much better if you stepped up your punish game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lil G winning against Flameleon is probably more related to the fact that the Mario ditto is extremely stupid and doesn't actually reward the player with better fundamentals particularly much as it rewards the player who simply just abuses a few simple tactics and waits for random **** ups. Flameleon himself says he doesn't like the ditto matchup. Furthermore, it's friendlies.

I'm just saying, you probably picked the worst example possible to defend your argument. The argument still stands strong that Flame by far has by far some of the best fundamentals of all the other Mario users here, and would almost certainly do better than all of us given he could be transported to the USA. Dropping a few games in the ditto matchup isn't out of the question especially if it's friendlies. Hell PIERCE BEAT BOSS AT THE DITTO. It's not like Pierce was actually a better player than Boss, even if he is solid in general. Anyone who is familiar with Boss's playstyle is that his one general flaw in his playstyle is he suffers at playing patiently, and forgoes optimal options in favor of his own improvised mixups.

Honestly a lot of Lil G's decisions are pretty bad, and shouldn't work, but they do in a friendly match, while Flame is CLEARLY performing better, but just getting randomly owned by stupidity of the matchup in general. You can just see that Flame's decisions and move choices are by far better, in spite of the fact he is falling for dumb **** here and there.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I never thought Flame was that great.

He lost the Mario ditto to Joey online, which I found hilarious btw. Joey doesn't even play that character!

 

[Boofy!]

@a2z

no johns

 

[Juushichi]

Joey plays every character though and if he cared enough, he would he beating a lot more people.

Anyway, I'll continue to be playing Mario. It'll be alongside Sheik because that works for me. But I'll be trying to do my part to show a little better on a larger stage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The facts remain, Mario dittos mean nothing. They don't prove who is better with the character, since the matchup is not dominated by skill. It's been that way since Melee to be frank.

 

[Matador]

I never thought Flame was that great.

He lost the Mario ditto to Joey online, which I found hilarious btw. Joey doesn't even play that character!

But you don't think anyone's that great...

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

But you don't think anyone's that great...

I think lots of people are great. Just not many Marios. Kirin is really good. I can really only judge someone as "good" if I play them.

Yeah Juu but Joey doesn't have a very great Mario. Just the best online Mario.

EDIT: Also A2Z, I don't play the Mario matchup very campy at all. Only slightly defensive, and I hardly ever lose it.

 

[Coolwhip]

Who on earth is this joey guy?

I heard about him awhile back. Is he another Ninjalink or something like that?

Edit: Since we're all here talking about flameleon. (Good friend btw) I'd post some offline tourney matches
he been in & one wifi match of him vs. legan. (Link main)
It's hella old, but i still enjoy his style of play.

Flame vs. Legan (WiFi)

Flame vs. Wonf (sonic)

Flame vs. Chota (falco)

I got ya back, matador. (-_^)b

 

[Kanzaki]

Closest thing to a Mexico PR that I know of. It's Tijuana, and Flameleon isn't in that region... But if you guys want an idea:

http://allisbrawl.com/group.aspx?id=11308


And top on wifi obviously means top over all.

 

[Inferno3044]

With the Mario ditto, that was to counter the point of Matador's saying he doesn't lose the ditto and then stated that there is evidence that he lost the ditto twice. Yes Flameleon has good fundamentals and basics. I will not argue that. I'm just saying that I think he is a bit overhyped. If he came to a US tourney and wrecked people I will gladly eat my words, but I don't see him getting top 10 at a tourney like KTAR. Also if options shouldn't work, why are they working? o.0

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's friendlies, and it's the Mario ditto. If you want to actually win it, fireball, cape, block a lot especially if you get Jabbed (getting Jab cancel D-smashed should rarely ever happen normally for instance ESPECIALLY on wifi where it can be ridiculously hard to hit confirm the 2nd hit), and poke with F-tilt or retreating B-airs. Don't force kills, just wait until you can edgeguard with N-air or juggle with U-smash/B-throw.

Actually to make it even easier, 90% of the time when something works and shouldn't, the answer is block better. This happens to be extremely applicable to getting out of platform pressure, given most characters lack aerials that can frametrap jump out of shield. And when people start fishing for KO moves, it tends to not be safe on block either. Especially in a matchup like the Mario ditto where Mario naturally is good at limiting his own options, AND especially because most Mario players are bad at saving B-throw for kills, you have little reason to not block when you're in doubt. Anyone who has observed my Mario recently in the ditto matchup will observe that I generally survive much longer than my opponents, simply because I block more than they do.

To me, that didn't really look like Flame playing the Mario ditto. He was playing friendlies, and trying to demonstrate other things instead of actually trying to win. I know for a fact that he has stated that he dislikes the Mario ditto.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

He is most definitely overhyped. Just like everybody else the Mario boards praise generally.

 

[Matador]

Here's a question:

Who here actually still PLAYS Mario? Who's going to tourneys or still playing Brawl in general?

 

[Inferno3044]

Here's a question:

Who here actually still PLAYS Mario? Who's going to tourneys or still playing Brawl in general?

Not me. No wii + no transportation = can't do ****. And I still got out of 1st round pools. If I have time, I will go to some tourneys in the summer.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I still use Mario if I want to be serious... or if I just feel like playing mario lol lack of tournies is my issue

 

[A2ZOMG]

Here's a question:

Who here actually still PLAYS Mario? Who's going to tourneys or still playing Brawl in general?

I play Mario as a secondary in tournament. I don't get to tournaments as often as I would like, but remember my latest results in were placing 3rd in a local with G&W/Mario/Falco.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Here's a question:

Who here actually still PLAYS Mario? Who's going to tourneys or still playing Brawl in general?

I'm regularly going to tourneys and I play Mario. But I never do both at the same time
I'm already dedicated to Wofl but I might start to use Mario as a surprise "counter" against Wario [I'm good at the match-up], Pikachu and Sheik [too boring to play as Wolf] but I'm really not sure about that^^

I'll try to get some new vids up by the end of April though.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Here's a question:

Who here actually still PLAYS Mario? Who's going to tourneys or still playing Brawl in general?

Haven't played since January. But unfortunately for me, the less I play this game the better I am at it. But I still play Mario.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm already dedicated to Wofl but I might start to use Mario as a surprise "counter" against Wario [I'm good at the match-up], Pikachu and Sheik [too boring to play as Wolf] but I'm really not sure about that^^

Mario vs Wario is a mostly neutral matchup though, and can be CPed to Mario's favor (take him to Brinstar, especially since Wario mains don't know how much better Mario is there). In a sense, he basically is a counter to Wario.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Brinstar is banned in region FYI. I can play the match-up just fine though I think^^

 

[condemned_soul]

wait brinstar is banned............****

 

[Inferno3044]

Mario vs Wario is a mostly neutral matchup though, and can be CPed to Mario's favor (take him to Brinstar, especially since Wario mains don't know how much better Mario is there). In a sense, he basically is a counter to Wario.

can I get video proof of Mario being better on brinstar than wario? Also he is basically a counter to wario as he is a counter to pikachu. Its 55:45 or 6:4 wario just because he is a much better character but its not like wario has a lot of things he can really abuse.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Unfortunately, I don't really have video evidence of Mario vs Wario on Brinstar. But I can safely say Mario is definitely better against Wario than he is against Pikachu.

Wario actually fails on the ground and pretty much only has F-smash to stop Mario from being too stupid (granted, it's hard for Mario to punish on block, but the point is Wario's other ground tools aren't very good in the matchup). Also Mario's autojab does extremely well stopping Wario from getting away with spotdodge shenanigans, which Wario users seem to be fond of doing.

Pikachu on the other hand does slightly beat out Mario on the ground, and he's also harder to not trade hits with in the air. It's made up for sorta by the fact he's a lot lighter than Wario, but all in all Mario's tools are definitely better against Wario. Wario in general is MUCH easier for Mario to anti-air. Intelligently spaced B-airs not only wall Wario extremely well, but can be used to landtrap Wario's airdodge as well. If Wario does NOT airdodge, you can trade with him favorably all the time or flat out beat him with tilts as anti-air options, and the idea is eventually you should be conditioning him into airdodging into positions that you can punish. Pretty much the only reason Wario like...sorta beats Mario is because of the threat of F-smash basically lol. It's the ONE move you really have to respect, and it's stupidly rewarding enough to justify very slight adv Wario. Eating 19% for screwing up an anti-air is kinda dumb.

On Brinstar, Wario almost never gets to use F-smash against Mario ideally. He has to play by Mario's rules and deal with fireball camping and superior platform control. The lava rises are TERRIBLE for Wario especially in this matchup because you can simply camp him or force him to approach and wall whatever he does to try to get in. If he has to land on the same platform as you, he risks getting grabbed or U-smashed, both of which are good for kills. His aerials aren't a threat once you are in the habit of almost never getting hit by his U-air.

I doubt that Brinstar is strictly the only stage that Mario actually beats Wario on. I believe we also benefit significantly more from Halberd just given how helpful the small blastzones are. I also suspect Delfino and RC give a bit more to Mario than they give to Wario. Either way Mario vs Wario is overall really close. At worst slight adv Wario. This happens to be one of few matchups where I EXPECT Mario to outdamage his opponent. Played correctly, Mario is definitely going to be hitting Wario more than he can hit you back.

 

[steep]

Here's a question:

Who here actually still PLAYS Mario? Who's going to tourneys or still playing Brawl in general?

I have gone all Mario in every tourney I have ever been to. I have been improving a lot, but I am still pretty new to the tourney scene so.... I have a lot of work to do before I start getting noticed.

 

[Coolwhip]

Here's a question:

Who here actually still PLAYS Mario? Who's going to tourneys or still playing Brawl in general?

TBH. Idk how long i'll keep playing smash. Sometimes i feel like I'm done with smash"
Can't get rich & famous off playing this shiz. As for me in general, i still play it for the
fun & passion of it. Even more, i had a friend (Great friend) who got me into smash (64)
He was so HYPE about brawl. Sadly, he died 1 month before the game came out.
I play it as a memory of him. R.I.P. ZAY-ZAY

Oh, I still enjoy playing the god-tier marry-o cuz he's a fun/legit character to play with.