Mario Questions and Answers; Ask here first!

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You see, best stage does not mean you use it in every MU. Because best usually refers to what most would consider for the general cast their best stage.

Brinstar is not the best stage for MK in every MU, there are some where even he would want FD.

Based on that vid and the first game

[yt]h_eJyqXJhxU[/yt]

Seems like Wario doesn't have the damage issue your talking about, at least not to the point you seem to be describing it as.

Kills are an issue, if Mario commits to something and Wario sees this, he can move in and punish very effectively, even with Uair. He is using his moveset effectively all around, it's not just Fsmash.

You seem to ignore the movement issues I brought up as well, and I'm still saying it, Wario can get in due to his air mobility. This is extremely apparent when he can get in on Mario and get the kills and moves that would normally have range issues if he was a lot slower.

Either way this is all I can say, whatever happens with this MU will happen and what works will be advocated and shown.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Brinstar isn't always the best stage for MK? That's news for me. The only character who comes close to benefiting as much as MK does from that stage is Mario, who of course still loses the matchup.

Aside from the MK matchup, Brinstar though is by far definitely Mario's best stage, and he benefits from it more than practically anyone else. There literally isn't another character in the game who has a downwards arcing projectile, an aerial that frametraps jump out of shield, and a reasonably strong KO throw.

Given that I've played the Wario matchup a few times there, I have reason to believe that most of Wario's advantages are nullified against Mario on Brinstar. The threat of Wario randomly getting in with a F-smash just isn't going to happen very often against a Mario user that is playing to take as long as possible to win on Brinstar given that Mario can essentially cover anywhere Wario can land on the same platform by simply charging U-smash. Then there is the fact Mario's fireballs actually adjust perfectly to the layout of the stage due to their downward arc, meaning he's always able to throw those out to control space from wherever he likes. Wario might be able to platform camp against characters who suck at platform pressure, but against Mario he's only asking to lose if he tries to do it against Mario's D-air.

 

[Matador]

Okay, here's the deal:

Mario's aerials either beat, or trade favorably with all of Wario's aerials. This is pretty much fact...it's been seen in practice, all of the vids linked show this.

Because of the speed of his aerials, this gives Mario the ability to wall Wario...very effectively, in fact. Bair is really good in this match-up for that reason.

OBVIOUSLY, that doesn't mean that Wario will never get inside and deal his damage, especially when Mario needs to kill Wario. Due to Wario's aerial mobility and damage output, he's able to deal heavy damage from a few reads relatively consistently. However, this requires Wario to get inside the wall. He has options available to get through the wall, and can mix them up to confuse Mario's walling, but in a direct confrontation, Wario loses to Mario's tilts and aerials every time. When Mario needs to kill, he has to bring down this wall to do it, and everytime he does that, he's vulnerable.

The reason Mario doesn't beat Wario in the match-up is due to Wario's weight and KO power. He kills us better than we kill him, especially due to how well Fsmash punishes Mario. Mario's Fsmash also isn't too reliable against Wario because of how aerial he is (but still has its uses because of how severely it outranges him).

For these general reasons, Wario beats Mario by a small margin. Mario's close due to his ability to wall, but Wario's ability to close the gap from KOs and sheer survivability keep him ahead.

WITH THAT SAID, on Brinstar, the balance shifts. Due to the nature of this match-up, Mario gains the advantage here.

It's been said, Mario gains platform pressure with aerials and Usmash, superior stage control through fireballs, closer blastzones for easier kills, lava to close off Wario's movement options (and sometimes force Wario to come to Mario's platform) as well as assist Mario's recovery if needed, and a few additional kill moves. Wario's gains aren't as convenient for this match-up as Mario's.

Mario's difficulty in killing Wario is now much less an issue. Bthrow is viable. Utilt is viable. Usmash is MUCH more viable since it covers whole platforms AND cleanly beats all of Wario's aerials AND is good at punishing airdodges. Mario's able to control space better due to fireballs and greater ability to wall afforded by the stage.

Wario gains earlier kills, which is great, but you must remember that he had no issue killing in the first place. Mario's main killer is now easier to land, and he has a few other reliable KO moves to back it up.

This is what I've gotten from this discussion so far. I'm inclined to agree with A2Z for the most part.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There is a reason why people said Luigi beat Wario in the past. He walls the living **** out of Wario for favorable damage. Honestly Mario does it about as well. Maybe slightly better because his U-air out of shield is superior and because his B-air and tilts have less ending lag. Though Luigi has an incredibly underrated F-air that nobody seems to understand how to use.

But they both lose slightly because of Wario's F-smash honestly, since neither of them can really do anything to kill Wario safely.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Brinstar would help in the matchup. I'd be inclined to take Wario there if BF and Lylat didn't exist.

Also, killing isn't that much of an issue in the matchup IMO. You just have to be patient and know what you're doing. A2Z is fairly right about what he's talking about most of the time guys, and I see no reason to troll him nearly as often as you do. Although I often get tired of reading his walls of text so maybe he has thrown out some false information, :/

I also swore off of theorycraft and matchup discussion long ago. I just come up with my own numbers based on what I've experienced. So goodbye! (I'll be in the social thread)

 

[steep]

Hello Mario boards; just a question. What do you think about the R.O.B. MU and why? Thanks in advance!

Here is an example of this MU (given, we are not the greatest players, but we do know each other pretty well and have a pretty decent knowledge of the MU):

ComradeDeux (ROB) vs Steep (Mario)

Would you like my pros, cons, and general thoughts here on this forum, or is there a ROB board you'd like me to post on?

 

[Kanzaki]

its not about being "right" or wrong, its the fact tha t theory crafting is at it is.. theoretical. not practical. you need real life experience with experienced players to know what works or not.

steep i would like to hear your input on the rob match up. im asking steep particularly, or anybody that actually fights robs.. not someone who only plays their friends robs, or used rob for 5 minutes and thinks theyre the best rob.

 

[Inferno3044]

its not about being "right" or wrong, its the fact tha t theory crafting is at it is.. theoretical. not practical. you need real life experience with experienced players to know what works or not.

This. I'll repeat it again: Theory is ALWAYS different from practice.

Can't help with ROB MU. I played a ROB in one game at my first tourney ever and that's it.

 

[steep]

steep i would like to hear your input on the rob match up. im asking steep particularly, or anybody that actually fights robs.. not someone who only plays their friends robs, or used rob for 5 minutes and thinks theyre the best rob.

Ok Kanzaki! Glad to oblige. I'm not saying I am a pro at this MU, but I have played Sneaky Tako, Mr. E, Spin, ComradeDeux, and Zwarm (all ROB mains of varying skill levels) all in tourney.

First off, I'll list some pro's and con's for both characters:

ROB

Pro's:
- upb gives excellent air mobility and recovery options
- your gyro allows for glide-tossing shenanigans and possible gimps
- nair beats most of Mario's moves when timed and spaced well (with the exception of a well-spaced usmash and fsmash)
- fair's can chain together and gimp Mario at low-mid % offstage
- bair has a deceptively long-lasting hitbox and covers ROB's whole body, and helps with recovery
- spotdodge -> dsmash has virtually no room for punishment and counters most of Mario's close-range options
- at low %, grab release -> ftilt is a good option I believe
- laser and gyro allow for some camping options
- dtilt is fast and has good range
- bthrow -> laser can be a good kill option at mid-high %
- nair can help you land safely
- your ftilt, dtilt, and dsmash outrange most of Mario's ground game

Con's:
- most kill moves can be predicted/read and shielded on reaction
- doesn't have a lot of options to get out of being juggled/combo'd
- if you become predictable with your seemingly good options (i.e. spot dodge -> dsmash, glide toss shenanigans), you will get punished HARD by Mario's combos/kill options because you are easier to punish than a lot of the cast when readable, at least for Mario
- your laser and gyro can be used against you if you aren't smart with them
- your shield is pretty bad at covering your head and feet, allowing for shield-poking with a lot of Mario's moves (bair, fb, dair, even nair or fsmash)

Mario

Pro's:
- cape works well against lasers and top
- ability to combo well with uair, utilt
- well-spaced bair can work well at walling to an extent because most of ROB's aerials are slow to start up
- fb approach works pretty well even if they shield because of shield-poking
- auto jab deals with excessive spot-dodging
- usmash and fsmash kill relatively early and an upward-aimed fsmash can shield poke
- usmash and fsmash, when spaced well, can beat ROB's nair
- utilt can hit several times at lower % without having to worry about punishment
- SDI up out of their dsmash and upb works if they dsmash you a lot (a good counter for their spot dodge -> dsmash option)
- good DI and shield game can make you live for a pretty long time (I once lived through ROB's up throw at nearly 200% on smashville with solid DI, which usually kills straight up at about 140% i'd guess)

Con's:
- ROB is nearly impossible to gimp/meteor strike successfully
- ROB can shieldgrab Mario even out of a perfectly spaced bair, unless you use a retreating bair (in other words, use retreating bair! lol)
- his offstage game beats yours easily
- you should recover low, or else you risk being gimped/meteor struck
- you have a hard time approaching ROB while he is in the air or punishing him as he lands because of his aerials, particularly his nair

If I think of more, I will add them. Sorry for the wall of text!! I will add a tips segment and also a list of stages that are good and bad for both characters tomorrow sometime.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The irony is what I'm explaining is from MY practice. It's not untested theory, like most of the **** you make up Inferno. Yes I know you're making up ****, because I've ACTUALLY played the Snake matchup a lot for instance against many different players on all the legal stages possible.

And I've played the ROB matchup in tournament as well. I think it's slightly ROB's favor. You win if you catch the Gyro and camp really well, but if he never lets you catch the Gyro, it's a chore to get in on him, and his land trap options are pretty good. His B-air and N-air edgeguards are also annoying as well. AutoJabs and D-air are extremely important. Fireballs are good against him because his shield sucks, but you have to respect his F-tilt at all times.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ok, lets not be nasty.

Like I disagree with the notion of Brinstar and the MU earlier but I avoided jabbing at people personally, let's not take pot shots at each other k?

 

[Kanzaki]

Very nicely structured steep. I like how you included whom you've played with to allow us to know that you actually know what you're talking about xD

And yes... ROB is nearly impossible to gimp... I've meteor spiked -> wall spike -> wall spike, and the ROB still had enough gas to make it back on stage.. this was actually recorded however video isn't up yet.. quite depressing =/


My trouble against this particular ROB player is that he's extremely well at spacing/reading/mix ups... I've 2/3 stocked multiple ROB's in tournies before, actually now that I think about it, my only losses to ROBs before this one was Hugs o.O

Stupid gyro -.-

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I'm okay versus ROB, it isn't my favorite matchup. But I'd say it's definitely a little in ROB's favor, especially if you aren't playing smart. I don't think I've lost to a ROB in tournament with my Mario before now that I think about it, but I remember that it was a pain to actually win, you generally have to bait out one of his aerials which I believe may be able to be punished consisently with Usmash OoS, or any aerial OoS. His nair can definitely be punished with Usmash, which is generally their go-to aerial.

There's no point in trying to camp him, it could work kind've but it's not really worth it IMO. You can throw fireballs from higher up to annoy him, and he can throw lasers back to annoy you. I would probably use Gyro the same way I use bananas, holding onto them and camping with them, and attacking with them when I see an opening.

Luckily for us, it's easy to rack up damage on ROB. But due to the range of his Ftilt it can sometimes be hard to land an Fsmash outside of baiting a spotdodge, so I generally save my Usmash for kills, and kill when I shield an aerial or see an opening to use the move.

ROB's offstage game surpasses our own, so you generally want to get back to the stage after being knocked off as soon as possible, because when he's got you in that position it's the easiest time for him to kill you. At other moments you don't have to worry too much about death until higher percents, provided you watch out for obvious kill setups. Feel free to follow him offstage though, because even if you mess up it likely won't end in death and we do have a solid pressure game on him as long as we're the closest to the stage. Just watch out for his Dair. I believe you can jump backward and Fair, and if he attempts to hit you out of it with his Fair you'll likely spike him, but that's something I try on most characters as an offstage mindgame.

You can beat his Ftilt with Fsmash, but it's really hard. It's sexy though, and at decent percents can mean an early kill, and momentum seems to be a big deal in this matchup.

That's just some stuff I've noticed from playing the matchup.

EDIT: To mention something from Steep's post, ROB cannot shield grab Mario provided Mario is doing a retreating Bair, which is easy to work into your Bair game IMO (and can lead to free Fsmashes toward people who think they CAN shield grab you) This also works against DDD and is one of the tricks that really doesn't make the matchup so hard.

 

[steep]

@Kanzaki: Thanks for the compliment! :D
@Xero: Retreating bair is definitely something I need to work into my game. I will change my con's section to include that retreating bair will keep you from getting shield-grabbed.

 

[Inferno3044]

The irony is what I'm explaining is from MY practice. It's not untested theory, like most of the **** you make up Inferno. Yes I know you're making up ****, because I've ACTUALLY played the Snake matchup a lot for instance against many different players on all the legal stages possible.

So you don't get hit by Snake's Utilt?

 

[Kanzaki]

The way I see the ROB match up... if the ROB doesn't know how to play against the Mario, he's going to get destroyed... else slight advantage towards ROB. This is due to the fact that I've destroyed many different ROBs who didn't know the matchup, other than 1 who actually does :[


Inferno - Many different players being his friends, and possibly kids at Gamestop.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I said knock it off for a reason.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So you don't get hit by Snake's Utilt?

Snake DOES NOT hit me with U-tilt unless I flat out **** up. This is against every Snake I've played, not just the ones in my area, but I've also had the luxury of playing Tyrant and Havok at WGF. They beat me of course since they were better players than me, and I was unfamiliar with their little quirks, but it wasn't really ****. Mind you, Snake has other ways of killing besides U-tilt. All of them require you to **** up in different situations, but U-tilt is probably the most obvious one to watch out for since Snake can only be standing or walking when he U-tilts. Snake is by far much more likely to kill you with B-air or Dash Attack than he is to kill you with U-tilt if you both have any idea how the matchup works.

If you're complaining about Halberd because you're getting killed earlier by Snake's U-tilt, you are DEFINITELY doing something wrong. Now Japes is a stage where it's appropriate to complain about how stupidly powerful Snake's U-tilt is.

Honestly Inferno the way you complain about things, it makes me wonder if you even know how to use shield or what spacing is. You do those two things correctly, a lot of dumb **** does not happen to you. Getting hit by Snake's U-tilt is one such thing. Any time you get hit by that move, you should reflect on the mistake you made. It's not even a question of "did I do something wrong?" No, you DID flat out **** up somewhere when you let Snake hit you with that move. Learn a lesson from that and step it up.

 

[Kanzaki]

http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=9970

Control F - A2Z


When I sand bag, I tend to mess around.

 

[Inferno3044]

Snake DOES NOT hit me with U-tilt unless I flat out **** up. This is against every Snake I've played, not just the ones in my area, but I've also had the luxury of playing Tyrant and Havok at WGF. They beat me of course since they were better players than me, and I was unfamiliar with their little quirks, but it wasn't really ****. Mind you, Snake has other ways of killing besides U-tilt. All of them require you to **** up in different situations, but U-tilt is probably the most obvious one to watch out for since Snake can only be standing or walking when he U-tilts. Snake is by far much more likely to kill you with B-air or Dash Attack than he is to kill you with U-tilt if you both have any idea how the matchup works.

If you're complaining about Halberd because you're getting killed earlier by Snake's U-tilt, you are DEFINITELY doing something wrong. Now Japes is a stage where it's appropriate to complain about how stupidly powerful Snake's U-tilt is.

Honestly Inferno the way you complain about things, it makes me wonder if you even know how to use shield or what spacing is. You do those two things correctly, a lot of dumb **** does not happen to you. Getting hit by Snake's U-tilt is one such thing. Any time you get hit by that move, you should reflect on the mistake you made. It's not even a question of "did I do something wrong?" No, you DID flat out **** up somewhere when you let Snake hit you with that move. Learn a lesson from that and step it up.

I'm not saying he can just throw Utilt out and it'll work. Yes you have to more or less make a mistake, but that mistake can be really slight like him shielding your attack or just he uses Utilt at a time that will beat your option or he reads your option off of his Dthrow. At least dying by that once a game is no exaggeration. But for fun, let's play by your rules anyways and pretend that Snake never kills with Utilt. Ftilt is a fairly reliable kill move. So is Uair is you place it right. Honestly, EVERY move of Snake's has the power to kill you at some percent except for cypher and every throw of his besides Bthrow iirc. Will he be killing with every move in his moveset? Probably not, but the point is he is a character with a ****load of power and can kill you reliably with MULTIPLE moves.

Also let me get this straight. You can complain about Utilt's strength on JUNGLE JAPES but not on Halberd? If anything I would complain about how Mario's Usmash basically becomes an unviable kill move there.

Random thing though, I love how Snakes always try to guess your get up action preemptively. They always do some option and I react accordingly (eg. if they run left, I get up to the right). Honestly Snake's should just try to "cheat" by looking at their opponent's controller. That's what I do in the "Look Away" minigame in Mario Party 2 until they catch on lol.

http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=9970

Control F - A2Z


When I sand bag, I tend to mess around.

LMAO!

I said knock it off for a reason.

I'm used to him acting like a superior douchebag and thinking that everyone who doesn't agree is an idiot. We say to each other that we are both dumb and don't know how to play this game and life continues.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If you're complaining about Halberd because you're getting killed earlier by Snake's U-tilt, you are DEFINITELY doing something wrong. Now Japes is a stage where it's appropriate to complain about how stupidly powerful Snake's U-tilt is.

You can't be serious.

I'm used to him acting like a superior douchebag and thinking that everyone who doesn't agree is an idiot. We say to each other that we are both dumb and don't know how to play this game and life continues.

There is nothing wrong with what your doing, Kanzaki on the other hand is doing it in a bad manor.

So that said, Kanzaki, we get it, and FlamewaveK has told me about this, stop bringing it up to troll him, even if you disagree there is no need to do it like this at all. If you dislike it so much, put him on your ignore list, ignore him or don't respond like this, those are your choices.

 

[Inferno3044]

You can't be serious.



There is nothing wrong with what your doing, Kanzaki on the other hand is doing it in a bad manor.

So that said, Kanzaki, we get it, and FlamewaveK has told me about this, stop bringing it up to troll him, even if you disagree there is no need to do it like this at all. If you dislike it so much, put him on your ignore list, ignore him or don't respond like this, those are your choices.

I think his point was that A2 claimed he went to WGF and he didn't enter the tournament. Also I'm pretty sure Tyrant and Havok use MK (and Havok has a Marth). Some people don't take friendlies seriously. I remember when I started out, people would play friendlies against me with their sides. I played Snakee's Zelda/Sheik, ADHD's Peach/Jiggz, and Pierce's almost everyone. If they don't use their main or a secondary they are working on, I normally don't take them seriously.

 

[Kanzaki]

Not doing it to troll, although it may seem like it. I'm doing it to pretty much asking him to back up what he says, not just say crap, and then tell other people they're bad without backing it up.

Just out of curiosity though, how did FlamewaveK get brought into this o.O

I miss him <3

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Cause he visits Luc boards I mod, and is the best trap ever.

I think his point was that A2 claimed he went to WGF and he didn't enter the tournament. Also I'm pretty sure Tyrant and Havok use MK (and Havok has a Marth). Some people don't take friendlies seriously. I remember when I started out, people would play friendlies against me with their sides. I played Snakee's Zelda/Sheik, ADHD's Peach/Jiggz, and Pierce's almost everyone. If they don't use their main or a secondary they are working on, I normally don't take them seriously.

I agree, which is why I called out that Pink Fresh vid.

 

[Inferno3044]

Cause he visits Luc boards I mod, and is the best trap ever.



I agree, which is why I called out that Pink Fresh vid.

So by that statement, the matches he had vs. Tyrant and Havok shouldn't matter and A2 is some idiot trying to tell everyone how he thinks the game should be played.

 

[Kanzaki]

Me and FWK teamed up in friendlies before, and pulled off the Anubis strat WITH Mario.

And he told me before I wouldn't be able to pull it off xD


<-- Most defensive Mario ever.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm not saying he can just throw Utilt out and it'll work. Yes you have to more or less make a mistake, but that mistake can be really slight like him shielding your attack or just he uses Utilt at a time that will beat your option or he reads your option off of his Dthrow. At least dying by that once a game is no exaggeration. But for fun, let's play by your rules anyways and pretend that Snake never kills with Utilt. Ftilt is a fairly reliable kill move. So is Uair is you place it right. Honestly, EVERY move of Snake's has the power to kill you at some percent except for cypher and every throw of his besides Bthrow iirc. Will he be killing with every move in his moveset? Probably not, but the point is he is a character with a ****load of power and can kill you reliably with MULTIPLE moves.

It's true that Snake's D-throw is a viable mixup tool into whatever kill move Snake can imagine on a read, but he shouldn't be grabbing you very often anyway.

F-tilt can kill, but only if you're grounded and if it's fresh. U-air is mostly worse than B-air.

For Snake to land U-tilt, he has to either read you off a D-throw (and getting the grab isn't exactly something Snake is doing consistently either), or you have to literally screw up and CHOOSE to do something risky that leaves you in his U-tilt range. The fact his U-tilt kills early just means it's a good punish. It doesn't mean you have to get hit by it. In general you don't have to get hit by the majority of what Snake does. He just wants to frustrate you until you hit a wrong button. He's good because he gets STUPIDLY high reward for punishing wrong buttons, but the facts are everything Snake does to you hinges on you making a mistake you could have avoided. It's different from the vast majority of other characters who almost always have some way of realistically spacing and playing poke wars.

Also let me get this straight. You can complain about Utilt's strength on JUNGLE JAPES but not on Halberd? If anything I would complain about how Mario's Usmash basically becomes an unviable kill move there.

That kinda is the point, and I don't get why you're being so picky about wording here. Snake's kills are random, but really early, and getting killed by him is more related to your personal quality of playstyle, meaning his kills don't really change based on stage that much. For Mario where your kills are less random, it's much more to your benefit if you get earlier kills. Mathematically speaking, you benefit more from Halberd anyway, and you get hurt a LOT more by Japes as well too.

I'm used to him acting like a superior douchebag and thinking that everyone who doesn't agree is an idiot. We say to each other that we are both dumb and don't know how to play this game and life continues.

Uh, I just think the vast majority of people fail at observation. Experience arguments are overrated, especially when there are examples in people like M2K and Emblem Lord who are able to come up with extremely accurate and helpful information more because they are extremely observant, less because of their performance (though M2K unlike most people practices what seems to be endlessly).

It's a proven fact I handle details and numbers better than you do as well as the fact I am better able to articulate reasons as to why things work, although if you insist upon the experience argument, I can also confidently say that I have much more diverse offline Snake experience than you do. It's why I can confidently tell you that BF is a bad stage for Mario to take Snake to in most circumstances.

And who the **** cares if Tyrant and Havok don't main Snake these days. They're GOOD players, and they have used Snake in tournament. Yeah I played them in friendlies. Do good players simply just suck and drop friendlies? Quit johning guys. It doesn't take a top level tournament match for people to come up with good game analysis. It's why we can have a discussion board in the first place.

 

[Boofy!]

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ummm...I've beaten Kain's Falco and Fox in friendies, doesn't mean jack though. Because he is far better with Wolf whom I have never beaten in friendlies or anything. I've two stocked Arty's Falco before in friendlies, same thing as Kain when I played him in bracket, never taken a game off of Arty.

Good player doesn't mean they are competent with the whole cast, nor does it mean friendlies are necessarily proof of something.

~

MtwoK has some questionable opinions and statements he has made, even people in the BBR have some issues trusting things he has said.

 

[A2ZOMG]

People need to stop caring about the people behind things, and actually focus on what matters. If you can analyze and understand wtf is going on, THAT is what matters. If you can consciously understand and explain that you beat someone in friendlies because they ****ed up in a few key areas, then that's respectable.

We don't have to feed the community example after example of top level tournament play to prove a point. We have a discussion board, and people are entitled to make good observations.

 

[HeroMystic]

hay gais wuts goin on lolz

 

[Inferno3044]

For Snake to land U-tilt, he has to either read you off a D-throw (and getting the grab isn't exactly something Snake is doing consistently either), or you have to literally screw up and CHOOSE to do something risky that leaves you in his U-tilt range. The fact his U-tilt kills early just means it's a good punish. It doesn't mean you have to get hit by it. In general you don't have to get hit by the majority of what Snake does. He just wants to frustrate you until you hit a wrong button. He's good because he gets STUPIDLY high reward for punishing wrong buttons, but the facts are everything Snake does to you hinges on you making a mistake you could have avoided. It's different from the vast majority of other characters who almost always have some way of realistically spacing and playing poke wars.

The thing that if you are trailing by reasonable percent or stock, you have to take risk. Snake can easily get a lead because be does stupid amounts of damage per hit.

That kinda is the point, and I don't get why you're being so picky about wording here. Snake's kills are random, but really early, and getting killed by him is more related to your personal quality of playstyle, meaning his kills don't really change based on stage that much. For Mario where your kills are less random, it's much more to your benefit if you get earlier kills. Mathematically speaking, you benefit more from Halberd anyway, and you get hurt a LOT more by Japes as well too.

My pickiness in wording is because wording changes the meaning. For example I wouldn't say "Don't take snake to Japes. His Utilt kills well there." I would say "Don't take Snake here. The large blast zones make it so he lives for a very long time." Japes is definitely a stage where it's better to kill horizontally, but not the point. My point is you should be more worried about him living to like 200% on every stock.

Uh, I just think the vast majority of people fail at observation. Experience arguments are overrated, especially when there are examples in people like M2K and Emblem Lord who are able to come up with extremely accurate and helpful information more because they are extremely observant, less because of their performance (though M2K unlike most people practices what seems to be endlessly).

What? Experience arguments are overrated? Having experience gives you the hands on knowledge of what to do. I'm going to make up some bull**** theory right now: MK is easy to juggle because you can follow him easily due to his low aerial mobility. The 2nd half of my statement is true, but I have not counted for any mixups such as how many jumps he uses before he lands, rising dairs, if he decides to glide, if he uses dimensional cape, etc. If I had experienced all of these things, then in a MU discussion I can say "MK is not easy to juggle because of the numberous mix ups he has such as..."

By saying experience arguments are overrated, you have admitted that you are a theorycrafter. Thank you for finally admitting it. I might make it my sig.

Also, M2K's observations are probably a good amount from his own experiences. And he has had some incorrect theories (Diddy beats MK). Nobody is perfect and people make wrong theories.

It's a proven fact I handle details and numbers better than you do as well as the fact I am better able to articulate reasons as to why things work, although if you insist upon the experience argument, I can also confidently say that I have much more diverse offline Snake experience than you do. It's why I can confidently tell you that BF is a bad stage for Mario to take Snake to in most circumstances.

You probably know more details and numbers than me and therefore you can articulate why things work on paper. I was going to use this vid as a way of saying Utilt kills are fairly often with Snake, but it serves its use here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI798XwOUhg

At 1:42 Razer hits Dojo with a Nikita. On paper it's a terrible option and Dojo should've reacted to it and punished, but it worked Why? Because it was an unexpected option. I've done the same thing. An MK came out to try to edgeguard me. I FLUDD'd them to keep him away and he used SL. Because of my unexpected option, he missed and SD'd. I hate sounding like a broken record because I've said this at least twice to you. I'll make you notice this time.
Theory is ALWAYS different from practice.

And who the **** cares if Tyrant and Havok don't main Snake these days. They're GOOD players, and they have used Snake in tournament. Yeah I played them in friendlies. Do good players simply just suck and drop friendlies? Quit johning guys. It doesn't take a top level tournament match for people to come up with good game analysis. It's why we can have a discussion board in the first place.

Some people are bad with some alts. I remember in the summer of '09 I beat ADHD's Peach and Jiggs. This was after he won SNES keep in mind. Honestly, some people don't care that much for friendlies and sandbag. I don't do this, but I have seen people who do.

You're right that you don't need to play the best person to make a discussion. You have had to play people that know their character and that know the MU. I've actually lost to people who I could've beaten because I have overestimated them. I expected them to know the MU and they didn't. I've gotten away with things I don't think I should've, but they didn't know what to do. I've gotten punished for things as well for my own MU inexperience. When I played Snakeee a few months ago, I had never really played a ZSS before. There were things I knew like which moves of her's are good, but there were gimmicks I didn't know and he was able to take advantage of them. Probably gimmicks that if I knew, I would've done better.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People need to stop caring about the people behind things, and actually focus on what matters. If you can analyze and understand wtf is going on, THAT is what matters. If you can consciously understand and explain that you beat someone in friendlies because they ****ed up in a few key areas, then that's respectable.

We don't have to feed the community example after example of top level tournament play to prove a point. We have a discussion board, and people are entitled to make good observations.

Yeah if you understand what is going on you can know what is happening, the real question is, do people actually understand what is going on?

We do feed them examples because to get to top levels of play, you were doing something right more than other people who doing what they were doing correctly. That is why people look at high levels of play.

You last statement is the basic freedom of speech thing, yeah everyone is entitled to say good things, they are also entitled to say incorrect things. It works both ways.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The thing that if you are trailing by reasonable percent or stock, you have to take risk. Snake can easily get a lead because be does stupid amounts of damage per hit.

What risk? You're again just making up **** by theorizing. You don't need to do anything stupid to get in on Snake. You space well, and work your way in with aerials, fireballs, and grabs. Of course a slight spacing mistake can be costly. Don't make them, and if you do, just remember how it happened the next time you go about it.

My pickiness in wording is because wording changes the meaning. For example I wouldn't say "Don't take snake to Japes. His Utilt kills well there." I would say "Don't take Snake here. The large blast zones make it so he lives for a very long time." Japes is definitely a stage where it's better to kill horizontally, but not the point. My point is you should be more worried about him living to like 200% on every stock.

And again, you're arguing about completely irrelevant things. The point is Snake's U-tilt kills you for screwing up, not because you picked Halberd. The implication is that smaller blastzones are more favorable for control based characters like Mario as opposed to heavy hitters like Snake, and the numbers prove it, and especially moreso when we take the inverse where control characters lose a lot more on stages with huge blastzones.

What? Experience arguments are overrated? Having experience gives you the hands on knowledge of what to do. I'm going to make up some bull**** theory right now: MK is easy to juggle because you can follow him easily due to his low aerial mobility. The 2nd half of my statement is true, but I have not counted for any mixups such as how many jumps he uses before he lands, rising dairs, if he decides to glide, if he uses dimensional cape, etc. If I had experienced all of these things, then in a MU discussion I can say "MK is not easy to juggle because of the numberous mix ups he has such as..."

Yes experience arguments are overrated. They hold no more weight than observation in any other form. Experience arguments are worse in that you have to manually sift out the bull**** related to skill in order to make truly accurate metagame analyses, only slightly better because they help quantify just how much of a barrier execution is competitively given that **** ups are a part of competitive play, as rare as they should be in high level play. And how your pretend bull**** theory argument means anything I don't know how. All you're doing is pretending to make bad observations. Anyone could have made those bad observations by pulling off bull**** in an actual match. That isn't the point of discussion. We're here to see beyond that and lay down information as to how people are supposed to improve and play optimally. The only thing that matters is simply making good observations, and YOU DON'T need constant streams of close to optimal high level play for that.

By saying experience arguments are overrated, you have admitted that you are a theorycrafter. Thank you for finally admitting it. I might make it my sig.

You're just as much of a theorycrafter to be frank. Don't be in denial, because EVERY PERSON WHO POSTS IN A METAGAME DISCUSSION IS THEORYCRAFTING. Explaining from experience of an offline match is only a synonym for that, and it still requires innate skills, knowledge, and understanding to properly make good conclusions. Ironically enough, when we take into account the statement that theory is different from practice, it becomes more accurate when we realize the two terms are synonymous. Results are different for everyone. What we should realize is that good observations can be consistent, because in competitive games, everyone is fundamentally going for the same objective, and rules (or mechanics) leave some absolute boundaries.

Also, M2K's observations are probably a good amount from his own experiences. And he has had some incorrect theories (Diddy beats MK). Nobody is perfect and people make wrong theories.

As we all know, M2K is basically hyper experienced in the MK ditto and relatively speaking little else. Again, experience based arguments are hugely overrated, and in fact are very synonymous with what you call theorycraft. In the end, all that is needed are smart players who are willing to set aside biases, look past bull**** such as skill gaps and times when people unnecessarily **** up, and good enough at writing to make the connections clear on paper for everyone else to see.

Some people are bad with some alts. I remember in the summer of '09 I beat ADHD's Peach and Jiggs. This was after he won SNES keep in mind. Honestly, some people don't care that much for friendlies and sandbag. I don't do this, but I have seen people who do.

What discussions ACTUALLY need are more statements of acknowledgement like this. Yes you explained you won random friendlies against a player who obviously was very inexperienced with the character he was using. That's the kind of stuff I actually look for in discussion. I don't see enough of people actually recognizing where to sift out suboptimal play in their analyses.

You're right that you don't need to play the best person to make a discussion. You have had to play people that know their character and that know the MU. I've actually lost to people who I could've beaten because I have overestimated them. I expected them to know the MU and they didn't. I've gotten away with things I don't think I should've, but they didn't know what to do. I've gotten punished for things as well for my own MU inexperience. When I played Snakeee a few months ago, I had never really played a ZSS before. There were things I knew like which moves of her's are good, but there were gimmicks I didn't know and he was able to take advantage of them. Probably gimmicks that if I knew, I would've done better.

These are some of the steps I EXPECT people to take when getting into a matchup discussion. A match does not have to be perfect to represent things that do exist. And most important is being able to see where improvements can be made.

 

[steep]

@Red Ryu: Sorry but I gotta ask this! In your sig, are you just b-reversing that energy ball to continue the combo? And if so, how come your momentum didn't reverse as well? Sorry if I sound like a noob but I'm not too knowledgeable about how Lucario works other than the basics.

 

[A2ZOMG]

That isn't a B reverse. That is a turnaround neutral special. It's a mechanic that has existed since 64. Briefly pressing the control stick in the opposite direction, going back to neutral position, and then inputting your special cases you to turn around while doing a neutral special without affecting your momentum.

B reversing requires you to smash the control stick in the direction you are not facing during the first 2-4 or so frames of your special move activation (I forget the exact window).

 

[Boofy!]

That's Trela in that gif

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm not gonna quote everything. Not worth it. I know I'm talking very technically and I guess you can call it theorycrafting (I personally don't think it is) but everything has some sort of risk. Even a simple approach has a risk, especially vs. Snake. He has options to punish heavily like shield > whatever (normally ftilt for 21% assuming he waits for you to land), grenade drop, etc. There are very few things in any game that have no risk.

Btw, the reason that I can't be more of a theorycrafter than you is because you know this game better than I do. You know a lot of statistics that I don't and therefore can implement them, hence your argument of "the numbers prove it." This is the point of my theory vs. practice. With numbers and data alone (theory), you can make a claim that should make sense but it doesn't always work when you put it to use. Take Olimar's recovery. With data and numbers, it's pretty terrible. Characters with good edgeguarding like Mario, Marth, and MK should be able to gimp him no problem. But when you actually try to go for it (practice), it's not as easy as it seems. He actually has a lot of mix ups. He has air dodge, whistle, and can throw out a random move and have it catch you off guard. Even ledge hogging isn't as easy as it sounds. Olimar can either throw all his pikmin to get a tiny jump boost to get back on or he can whistle his purples to the front line and have them hit you off the ledge. What numbers appear to show does not always work when implemented.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People need to stop caring about the people behind things, and actually focus on what matters.

This is why nobody takes you serious.

You make a statement. When asked for back-up / accused of theorycrafting you say you actually did it in practice vs your friends [who conviniently nobody has ever heard about]. When people mention that it doesn't mean much you mention tournament friendlies that matter just as little. When called out for that you said that the people behind things don't actually matter. Even though you always stress the "fact" that you it's always backed up by what you do in practice against other people. Essentially confirming that it *is* theorycrafting that's the basis for your arguments.

 

[Inferno3044]

So how about the ROB Matchup? I've grown bored of debating with A2. He knows numbers and data; nothing more. He is sometimes the only one that believes what he says. Tony told me in the P:M discussion it was unanimous that P:M link got a buff from both melee and brawl. A2 was the ONLY person who didn't think so. Then he spouted some nonsense and was almost kicked out of the thread.

And yes it's **** like this which is why nobody believes you A2.