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[steep]

ROB MU:

Stages that Mario should ban (my opinion based on experience/conversations with ROB mains):
PS1, Frigate Orpheon, RC

Reasons:
PS1 -
ROB has a dtilt lock on the fire transformation that is fairly easy to land on you.

Plus, almost every ROB main I have talked to has told me this is one of/the best ROB stage.... I'm actually not sure why tbh. We should ask them for more details on this.

Frigate -
This stage has some weird shenanigans ROB can pull off. Namely,
1. ROB can camp with his dair and upb on the edges of the map and time you out with no fear of you approaching him because he will just wait for the side platform to appear and then land on it and refresh his upb and camp some more. It sucks to be timed out in this manner.... Trust me.

2. ROB can throw out a dair just as the stage starts to flip and has a decent chance of hitting you as it settles in on the new position.... Random spikes on Mario are bad. lol So try to air dodge when the stage flips if you see them going for the random dair. Or don't take them to/ban this stage!

3. The lack of a ledge on the right side of the starting transformation doesn't hurt ROB hardly at all.... but if he can get a chain of fairs on you at low-mid % and gimp you much easier here than on most stages since there is no ledge for you to get back to....

4. The angled floor of the second transformation can actually help his laser aim, while it generally hinders your fireballs against him. At least in my experience.

RC:
The main thing here is how much more air mobility ROB has than you with his upb.... I have never actually played a ROB main on RC, so I could be totally wrong on this, but I feel like this stage would be pretty heavily in ROB's favor, since he will have to spend so much time in the air as you move between platforms, and his best and most reliable kill options air aerial attacks.

Good Stages for Mario:
BF, maybe Halberd (Brinstar?), possibly others (sorry about my uncertainty. most of my games with ROB's have been on Smashville, Battlefield, or PS1)

BF - This is just a good stage for Mario, and the platforms will help with those lasers if the ROB tries to hit you on his way back to the stage from above. Also, Mario's platform pressure will work even better because of how bad ROB's shield is. >.<"

Halberd - Low ceiling works generally in Mario's favor here, since your most reliable kill option is usmash. I feel like even if ROB tries to shark you, Mario won't have too much trouble dealing with this because of how laggy ROB's aerials are (at least the aerials that he would be using to shark you are laggy). Again, I just feel like the small blast zones will benefit Mario here more than they will benefit ROB in most cases.

Hopefully most of that made sense. Feel free to comment or critique me, or even flat-out disagree with me. I could easily be wrong about some of these things. I hope this is at least somewhat useful though!

 

[A2ZOMG]

So how about the ROB Matchup? I've grown bored of debating with A2. He knows numbers and data; nothing more. He is sometimes the only one that believes what he says. Tony told me in the P:M discussion it was unanimous that P:M link got a buff from both melee and brawl. A2 was the ONLY person who didn't think so. Then he spouted some nonsense and was almost kicked out of the thread.

And yes it's **** like this which is why nobody believes you A2.

Uh, you didn't read the thread. I simply complained that Link was clearly one of the worst characters in Project M. And if Project M had the balls to claim that their Link was the best incarnation of Link seen in a Smash game, they haven't played Balanced Brawl, where Link is high tier.

Nobody is denying Link is buffed from Melee. But a lot of chars are buffed to. Actually one of the problems with PM Link is the fact his recovery is worse since he can't wall grapple. This means his recovery gets ***** all day by generic ledgedrop tactics. Doesn't matter that his Up-B goes farther honestly. Link's recovery only goes in one direction, so you have no reason to not attempt hogging the ledge.

And actually I was not the only person to agree that Link was underpar compared to the other chars in Project M. But again, you didn't read the thread. If you talk to Fly Amanita, he'll cite that most of the disagreement was basically because a lot of silly people were bad at reading and overemotional over my statements. HE thought my statements were reasonable and intelligent, and he's a REALLY good Melee player.

What I told them is that the ONLY way Link would be on par with matchups against characters like Fox, Falco, Sheik, Jiggs, and Marth is if he kept the Brawl Z-air, something they deliberately did not. BBrawl Link >>>> Project M Link by far because of Z-air, and F-smash actually, the two of which combined give BBrawl Link a superior pressure game than Link in Project M. Also edgetrapping is fundamentally a better strategy in Brawl, so D-air actually sees more use in Brawl engines rather than in Melee engines.

Speaking of D-air, I hate how even the strong hit *still* is less powerful than Fox's U-smash. Link in Project M is just a character who wants you to approach badly. His aerials and mobility aren't good enough to give him the pressure tactics he needs to approach in matchups against clearly better characters, and the fact his recovery is much more vulnerable to ledgedrop tactics REALLY hurts. He has some okay walls and does some fun damage per hit and that's it. His projectiles are alright, but they only are good as punishers. They still aren't fast enough to really force anyone into doing something stupid. It's the way it's always been in every Smash game.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm going by what Tony told me. Also nobody really cares about BBrawl XD. And Brawl- Link >>>>> BBrawl Link probably. I was told Mario was good in P:M though by Kirin. He said get them off stage and fair. They are gonna die one way or another and frankly it doesn't matter how.

 

[Kanzaki]

P:M Mario is ****. Juu seen my P:M Mario, it's pretty sexy.

 

[Inferno3044]

I haven't played project P:M. All what I heard is that they made Fox and Falco exactly the same as they were in melee and then boosted everyone else to that level.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm going by what Tony told me. Also nobody really cares about BBrawl XD. And Brawl- Link >>>>> BBrawl Link probably. I was told Mario was good in P:M though by Kirin. He said get them off stage and fair. They are gonna die one way or another and frankly it doesn't matter how.

I don't care what other people say when Fly Amanita basically agrees that people fail at reading. And either way the Project M devs should be embarrassed about making outlandish statements on their dojo, since it's clear that they sometimes don't know wtf they should be doing.

P:M Mario is definitely good though. Personally I think the buff to D-smash is far more important, since it's one of Mario's easier moves to set up into, and keeping the range on Brawl U-smash is HUGELY helpful for Mario as well. The Mario Tornado is also much easier to use as a recovery move horizontally, and it actually is safe on hit should you want to use it as an actual attack (which only really applies for gimmicky platform pressure to be frank).

 

[SKidd]

**** it, I'll just post it here.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8dPK0GFrYY&feature=feedu

 

[Inferno3044]

I don't care what other people say when Fly Amanita basically agrees that people fail at reading. And either way the Project M devs should be embarrassed about making outlandish statements on their dojo, since it's clear that they sometimes don't know wtf they should be doing.

So since one person agrees with you, that person is smart and everyone else is dumb and doesn't know anything. It's things like this which is why you don't have respect. You might be right, but you just sound like a douche to people who disagree. If you know better, then why don't you help develop?

 

[Boofy!]

**** it, I'll just post it here.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8dPK0GFrYY&feature=feedu

I'm not even lying when i say i almost fell asleep watching that from the music LOL

 

[SKidd]

Better than what it was before. It's pretty much the exact opposite.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So since one person agrees with you, that person is smart and everyone else is dumb and doesn't know anything. It's things like this which is why you don't have respect. You might be right, but you just sound like a douche to people who disagree. If you know better, then why don't you help develop?

I do know better, so I told them exactly what Link needed in Project M to be "the best incarnation of Link seen in a Smash game".

Honestly it's statements like those that the devs make that makes them sound like total douches that think they know better but obviously don't. And unless they made any recent changes to their P:M releases, Link is definitely one of the worst characters in the game, regardless of his buffs, since none of them truly address the reasons why he wasn't up to par.

Worse are the people who try to argue, but completely miss the point of the arguments I'm making. There are two things I don't like in arguments. Hypocrites, and people who fail at reading. There were plenty of those in the P:M discussion. If I look like I hold resentment against anyone in particular, I feel I have a pretty good reason to because other people are pretty good at missing the point and going off on totally unrelated tangents.

Another example of the devs totally not knowing what they're doing. Zelda. What they wanted out of her was a strong defensive character (again something they stated on their dojo website). What they actually created was the exact opposite. Zelda's defenses are UTTER crap, except for the fact that as a floaty she survives forever in Project M. Din's Fire was the main move altered, and it's crap for keeping people out or for camping. AMAZING for getting free approaches and applying offensive pressure.

 

[Inferno3044]

Well when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. I heard Zelda is really good in P:M. They wanted something and made something else good.

Well what I heard in the argument (taking it from Kanzaki) was that they said he was better in P:M than he was in melee or brawl. Also, Link has been pretty *** in every actual smash game so he probably is the best incarnation by being better than how he was in any actual smash game. The best incarnation of Link to my knowledge is Brawl- Link who is annoying as **** and super easy to use.

 

[-Sensei-]

I see not much has changed on the Mario boards...

 

[SKidd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8dPK0GFrYY&feature=feedu




...Reposting...

 

[Coolwhip]

It's time for mario's metagame to "1-up" again. I haven't seen much
improvement in talking about it as of late.

 

[Kanzaki]

I don't get how someone that plays Link, nor Zelda, says they know how to improve said characters better than people that main those. Project M developers went directly to one on the top Link mains in Melee, and asked him what needed to be improved.. and they did pretty much exactly just that. I played Link in Melee before picking up Dr. Mario, and I agree with practically everybody else he's been buffed.

So.... listen to a person who mained Link, and gotten results.. or a random dude who just posts walls of texts and possibly only played Link like twice.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well what I heard in the argument (taking it from Kanzaki) was that they said he was better in P:M than he was in melee or brawl. Also, Link has been pretty *** in every actual smash game so he probably is the best incarnation by being better than how he was in any actual smash game. The best incarnation of Link to my knowledge is Brawl- Link who is annoying as **** and super easy to use.

Uh, I'm talking competitive viability when I'm talking about how good or bad a character is. Link as I saw him in Project M is not a competitively viable character. He still loses hardcore to space animals and Sheik for the same reasons as usual. That never changed, except he also got easier to gimp.

Brawl- dunno. I don't think Link matters compared to someone like Wolf. Mario in Brawl- beats Link and he's not outstanding in that game.

The best incarnation of Link in a Smash game is almost certainly BBrawl's Link, given that he ACTUALLY is high tier in that game.

So to be frank, Link is actually still about as bad as he originally was in Melee since his matchups didn't really get better. He has some buffs, nobody is denying, but they don't actually matter that much since he still pretty much loses to all the same characters.

Link's best incarnation in a REAL Smash game is most likely from 64, where Isai makes the entire cast viable and proves there are no unwinnable matchups in that game. Project M doesn't have **** on that, and that's not saying much for them because Link is still low tier in that game and a character with generally unfavorable matchups. If Project M wants to claim in all builds of Smash, official or unofficial they have the most competitively viable Link, which is WHAT I HOPE they mean by the best, then they should take more examples from BBrawl. For starters, Link needs the lagless Z-air. And furthermore his F-smash should be AT LEAST as stupid as it is in BBrawl (one of the hitboxes on F-smash2 does 22% uncharged, and the entire move is basically safe on block. Note that actual damage = shield damage, and full shield has 70 health).

Well when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. I heard Zelda is really good in P:M. They wanted something and made something else good.

Nobody said she was bad. The point is though the devs don't know how to analyze characters at all. They tell you that the best way to play her is defensively. Defensive Zelda gets ***** all day. No oos options. Bad dodges. Bad mobility. She isn't cut out for defense at all. She wants to set up **** and rush you down as much as possible and not give you a chance to breathe.

I'm also betting the fact she survives forever was completely unintended as well (well, I mean what are you gonna do about game physics?) but chances are they weren't exactly expecting that to be part of the equation in playing Zelda. I mean they acted like Jiggs being light and floaty is bad for her survival when tournament results for melee have long proven that those characters survive ridiculously long.

 

[Inferno3044]

Brawl- Link wrecks. You camp like Brawl Link except you deal massive damage and win. The only reason Mario probably wins is because his can reflect.

Also once again, you fail to understand that nobody has really given a crap about BBrawl. There are tons of hacks that nobody really has ever cared about. The only ones I can actually think of that ever mattered are Brawl+, Brawl-, and P:M possibly in the future. Basically all the other ones were either poorly hyped like Unstoppa-Brawl or didn't gain popularity.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Whether or not people care about BBrawl isn't the question. The question is as simple as saying has anyone made Link more competitively viable? BBrawl AND Smash 64 beg to differ with Project M. And Project M would do well to care about BBrawl since generally speaking it's the best example of how Link actually can be good.

 

[Inferno3044]

Any character can be hacked to become viable so I'm really not counting BBrawl. Smash 64 at least has a point, but as you said every character is viable in that game and Link relatively is *** in that game.

 

[steep]

Um.... did anyone read my post about stages against ROB? just curious....

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Well I wouldnt ban any of those stages except for RC against ROB imo. You shouldn't be getting dtilt locked unless you're being extremely unsafe. Also the random dair for transformations is just.. wat? lol you have to be extremely unlucky for that to actually happen to you. Though the right side of the first transformation of frigate is probably the main reason why this stage is good for rob. That also depends on how long you stay on the first transformation anyways. Also just cape ROB's lasers (as long as you don't get obv punished for doing it.. lol)

Just my cents on the stages you suggest we ban in the matchup steep.

 

[Kanzaki]

I did Steep, although I appreciate it, I mostly play friendlies against this ROB player, therefore we just random stages xD

However, it was nice to keep in mind for any potential tournaments. It's good to know bout PS1.

 

[Inferno3044]

I read it as well. Thank you Steep.

 

[steep]

Ok thanks guys. Ha Ha I was just worried that it got burned out of existence by all the flaming going on.... Thanks for the advice Jimmyfosho! I agree with you on pretty much everything, I just wanted to put those things out there so everyone was aware of them.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

just noticed when I reread my post that I accidentally put **** instead of cape... wow

 

[A2ZOMG]

Any character can be hacked to become viable so I'm really not counting BBrawl. Smash 64 at least has a point, but as you said every character is viable in that game and Link relatively is *** in that game.

The argument originated from Project M Link viability, so BBrawl is relevant since this is a topic that includes hacks.

Link is *** in every Smash game. He's viable in 64 because he actually has a real pressure game and because character mobility discrepancies are far less extreme. In Melee over half the cast ****s on him because he's slow, fragile, and not extremely powerful, and he might as well quit against any top tier besides maybe Peach or Jiggs. Matchupwise he's not quite as bad off in Brawl than he is in Melee given he actually survives forever and because Z-air, U-smash oos, and the removal of crouch canceling are pretty neat for him, though just fewer characters are statistically worse than him which comparatively speaking makes him lower tiered.

In terms of competitive (matchup) viability, 64 >>>>> Brawl > Melee Link imo. Ironically he's highest tiered in Melee, but it doesn't mean much when Melee is the least balanced of the titles in terms of matchups.

Add in hacked games, it's more like BBrawl > 64 >> Brawl Minus >>>> Project M > Brawl > Melee.

 

[ccst]

Thank you steep, among others. It seems that R.O.B. has a slightly favour, so the ratio must be 55:45 R.O.B.. Pretty impressive posts from you steep btw. xD

 

[steep]

Thank you steep, among others. It seems that R.O.B. has a slightly favour, so the ratio must be 55:45 R.O.B.. Pretty impressive posts from you steep btw. xD

Thank you! ROB is probably the MU I have the most experience with, since I have played quite a few in tourney, and my college roommate from last semester was a snake main who switched to ROB and now is a pretty decent ROB.

 

[steep]

Sorry for the double post, but I need some pointers on how to get good at retreating bair. When I do it, it's either not spaced well or I miss completely. I guess I just want to know how far from my opponent I should be when I start the jump so that it will be well spaced as I retreat. Any videos would help too! Thanks in advance!

 

[Coolwhip]

Sorry for the double post, but I need some pointers on how to get good at retreating bair. When I do it, it's either not spaced well or I miss completely. I guess I just want to know how far from my opponent I should be when I start the jump so that it will be well spaced as I retreat. Any videos would help too! Thanks in advance!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWV9rpMjK_k&feature=related

^ I hope that helps....Small tip from me. Retreating bair>charged fsmash.
It works @ best when you fast fall tech. To me, it's a good mindgame trick that most non-marios won't see
coming.

EDIT: Watch firemario's "How to use mario" video series. It help me tons!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sorry for the double post, but I need some pointers on how to get good at retreating bair. When I do it, it's either not spaced well or I miss completely. I guess I just want to know how far from my opponent I should be when I start the jump so that it will be well spaced as I retreat. Any videos would help too! Thanks in advance!

Retreat B-air is best when your opponent is moving towards you.

Happens to be most obviously beneficial in matchups like vs Wario, the ditto, and against Luigi.

I will bet however there are many situations you should be poking with F-tilt instead.

 

[Zwarm]

Ok Kanzaki! Glad to oblige. I'm not saying I am a pro at this MU, but I have played Sneaky Tako, Mr. E, Spin, ComradeDeux, and Zwarm (all ROB mains of varying skill levels) all in tourney.

We played in tourney, but iirc, I went all Dedede against you because I was a jerk.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Retreat B-air is best when your opponent is moving towards you.

Happens to be most obviously beneficial in matchups like vs Wario, the ditto, and against Luigi.

I will bet however there are many situations you should be poking with F-tilt instead.

Poking with Ftilt isn't as sexy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Conditioning people to expect F-tilt pokes however can be amazingly sexy, given the number of fun options you have to bait people.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Right, but shieldpoking people with Fair is far sexier.

 

[Omari]

@All Mario Mains: What are your thoughts about Mario's f-tilt (all angles (up, straight & down))?

Mario's up tilt (u-tilt) angled up acts as an effective Option Select IMO.

"How so Omari"?

Reasons:
1. Frame 5 Footsie (able to poke while grounded).
2. Frame 5 anti-air (able to counter many short-hopped approaches).

Combo-wise:
3. Best (MO) move to end after Down Airing (D-airing) your opponent(s) when making ground contact. Depends on character because jab is more beneficial due to having +1% more damage, bigger knock-back & resetting damage for stale moves.
4. Excellent against taller characters Mario with large hurt-boxes.

Honestly, I've yet to figure out many true uses for Mario's u-tilt angled straight & angled down.

Angled Straight:
1. Walling (preventing smaller characters from getting inside Mario's comfort zone).

Angled Down:
1. Knee buckling (adding additional hit-stun) at mid percents (30-40% ideally speaking).

I'd like to hear your thoughts, opinions & facts (if any). Thanks.

 

[steep]

We played in tourney, but iirc, I went all Dedede against you because I was a jerk.

yes you're right. AND iirc, you swallow-cided me at 222% on your last stock on lylat, while I was at 0%.... That was my last game of my first pools set ever and I lost every game because of that.... lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

F-tilt is never used enough. It's just a really practical move in terms of range and speed.

F-tilt after Jab cancels is pretty good. Unlike D-smash, it never has issues blatantly whiffing due to its range, so it's a reliable option for ending your hit confirm juggles. Weak DA also usually combos into F-tilt.

You can actually use F-tilt as a faux spotdodge if you face backwards when doing it. Not super practical, but that option exists.

Down-angled F-tilt is a good option for edgeguarding Snake if he has to recover close to the edge.

Up-angled F-tilt is indeed an underused anti-air option.

F-tilt, along with Jab, Grab, and F-smash is one of the better options after fireball.

 

[Omari]

Even though Down Smash (d-smash) hits on frame 5 too, the risk/reward usually isn't worth the trouble (-3% if 1st hit whiffs (requires mastery of spacing), less knock-back, not safe on stage (unless near ledges for pressuring your opponent(s) offstage)), doesn't cover airborne opponents too in an arc-like motion like u-smash does & is the last option (MO) for a smash kill.

Jab has better range than d-smash. Any attack that has better range than jab (& similar qualities) are effective. Mario's d-smash, u-tilt, grab & d-tilt aren't recommended after jabbing (jab-canceling also) IMO.

Weak d-air>f-tilt (angled up) IMO is most effective chance for linking, walling & spacing your opponent for yet another setup.

Honestly, my style becomes much crisp when I understand a MU, understand the stage & understand why I'm utilizing certain moves for w/e reason. IMO, f-tilt (angled up) is an excellent Option Select for opponents who have a habit of linear (1angle) approaching (doesn't utilize (mix-up) angles).

Fireballs are great manipulation tools (best used once at a time) I'm starting to realize. Never understood before why certain smashers would fireball>anything. Fireball in a sense baits reactions I believe. My other focus to establish why certain setups like fireball>jab work so well. Kirin made gdlk use of this against Seibrik@*Pound* V.