Mario Questions and Answers; Ask here first!

[A2ZOMG]

Just right click on the video and one of the options is "copy video URL at current time"

Don't know how long it took for youtube to implement that.

 

[KMFBrawler]

I'm almost certain that pivot grab has an increased grab range. It also helps because as well as grabbing you are putting yourself farther away from opponent. Honestly, I don't use it much because I've never really seen it as a vital part of his metagame like it is for Yoshi and Olimar.

With Ally, I'm partially sympathizing because I think he is a good guy and an amazing player. I'm not gonna meat ride him and say if there was no crowd he would've definitely won. A loss is a loss and you learn from mistakes.

Agreed. Also, I have a feeling that the majority of smashers are not used to pivot grabs, and therefore don't expect them. But my problem is that I sometimes use pivort grabbing to often. I need to mix it up a bit.

 

[Omari]

Thanks Inferno but that doesn't explain why. Yes, it works most of the time but is it range, priority, armor, etc?

@Mario Mains: Falling d-air>grab (walk up) is our new BnB (they become conditioned to shield for the most part).

*Falling d-air>jab (or buffered f-tilt angled up) > full jab, f-tilt or d-smash works too.

Spoiler

I wonder if falling d-air>jab>QDA works?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Pivot grabbing covers options due to its range (it's VERY disjointed, about twice as long as a regular grab), and it's less risky to whiff than whiffing say dashgrab. That's why it's practical in juggles.

I personally don't like comboing into Jab after D-air simply because further hit confirming your combos after D-air is usually unnecessary. It only adds 2-3%, and there is a chance your opponent might mash jump to escape. Going immediately for grab or D-smash imo is best.

 

[2fast]

Okay Mario's, I've been talking with my friend that mains Yoshi and he says that Yoshi has worst MUs than Mario. I feel Mario has worst MUs than Yoshi. What do you guys think?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd personally say we're better against most other mid tier characters. And we beat Yoshi in that particular matchup for that matter. When you get to the higher tiers...meh. He's better against Wario and the ICs I guess. We're better against Snake and Pikachu imo.

 

[Inferno3044]

Okay Mario's, I've been talking with my friend that mains Yoshi and he says that Yoshi has worst MUs than Mario. I feel Mario has worst MUs than Yoshi. What do you guys think?

If we are going with how bad some MU's are, I'm gonna say Mario is worse. His really bad MUs are all high tiers (MK, Marth, D3). I guess you can add Falco if he plays gay enough (which most people don't do). Yoshi is definitely better vs. Marth, D3, Falco, and maybe MK. He is also better against G&W However, there are some MUs we are better at than him like Lucario, Wolf, and Fox. As deltacod told me a while ago, Yoshi struggles against some mid tiers and does pretty well against high tiers. Mario vs. Yoshi I hear a lot of people say it's 6:4 Mario but honestly I'm uncertain. There are some myths about the MU such as fireballs shutting down Yoshi's ground game.

Not to call A2 out, but I wouldn't say Yoshi is worse at the Snake MU. They probably do about the same.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Yoshi is also better against MK than Mario. Which is the MU that matters the most lol

 

[Inferno3044]

Yoshi is also better against MK than Mario. Which is the MU that matters the most lol

Probably. I just talked to delta about it and he says Yoshi vs. MK is -3 which is what I think Mk vs. Mario is.

 

[A2ZOMG]

MK is silly to Yoshi. Just because Yoshi can do some chip with his GR chaingrab doesn't change that MK can crap over his spacing just fine. Now the a character where his GR ACTUALLY matters is against Wario. Yoshi legitimately beats Wario instead of loses slightly because of that. We would probably beat Wario solidly if we had a reliable air release on Wario on the other hand.

And Mario is definitely better against Snake than Yoshi. More practical approaches. Better kill moves. They both can combo Snake reasonably well, but Mario kills earlier and more easily and has better stage counterpicks (Brinstar especially. Halberd is also better for Mario than it is for Yoshi). Mario also can get away with shielding more than Yoshi, which is very important against Snake especially when dealing with grenades.

I know Yoshi has a silly GR chaingrab and Falco doesn't like losing ground from it, but I'd say he gets destroyed about as badly by Falco's insane moveset as Mario does, especially when we factor that Mario can duck under lasers and can do more to keep Falco honest about his Jab mixup game (Mario can D-smash before Falco can Jab cancel grab for instance. SDIing and U-airing and Up-Bing is situationally useful as well. Not things you can count on, but they are options that Falco has to respect if you can do them with some semblance of consistency).

I also disagree that we do as poorly against Marth as you think, especially since Mario users haven't demonstrated a solid understanding of ledgedrop edgeguards as well as being able to confirm when U-air out of shield is good for getting out of pressure. Also we combo Marth significantly better than most of you realize.

And we do beat Yoshi. You space better since you have better aerials. Your Jab game limits him a lot and prevents him from doing a lot of his usual shenanigans (especially the spotdodge related ones). And you kill him better (especially since he can't really get away with spotdodging easily against Mario). He can't really stop you from approaching if you need to since you have fireballs, which give you a significantly superior zoning game and make it pointless for Yoshi to pivot grab for any reason besides juggling.

The rest is probably right.

 

[steep]

MK is silly to Yoshi. Just because Yoshi can do some chip with his GR chaingrab doesn't change that MK can crap over his spacing just fine.

And Mario is definitely better against Snake than Yoshi. More practical approaches. Better kill moves. They both can combo Snake reasonably well, but Mario kills earlier and more easily

And we do beat Yoshi. You space better since you have better aerials. Your Jab game limits him a lot and prevents him from doing a lot of his usual shenanigans (especially the spotdodge related ones). And you kill him better (especially since he can't really get away with spotdodging easily against Mario). He can't really stop you from approaching if you need to since you have fireballs, which give you a significantly superior zoning game and make it pointless for Yoshi to pivot grab for any reason besides juggling.

How much Yoshi experience do you have A2? Because that all sounds like "on paper" stuff. Yoshi's GR cg on MK is more useful than you make it sound. He can buffer a sliding usmash if done right, and can buffer a fair for a mid-high percent spike on MK when he GR's him at the edge of the stage. Also, Yoshi's pivot grab beats anything MK has as far as range and his egg throw is beastly when you know how to use it well. These two tools do more for Yoshi than pretty much anything of Mario's against MK. I mean, Yoshi can pivot grab nado, for one example!

As for the Snake MU, I don't see how you think some of that ^^. Mario may indeed have better approaches, but how does he have better kill moves? Yoshi's usmash and fsmash are just as good as Mario's in my experience (as far as spacing and useability, not sure about kill power, but I expect it's pretty close, just by how it feels and what I've seen) and Yoshi's uair is ridiculous, and because his second jump gives super armor, it's not that hard to land. Same with his nair.

I feel like you just haven't played any good Yoshi's when you started talking about how we beat him. Mario may end up with a slight advantage on paper, but there are some things that you forgot. When he lands a grab, he has super armor, like most of the cast (lol @olimar). The difference he has from most of the cast is that his grab range is ridiculous, so if you fsmash and he grabs and they land at the same time, he wins. This can also work on FB approaches, although it's less reliable. Also, in my experience, most Yoshi's like to egg camp Mario and force an approach, and as I said before, his egg throw is too good.

Last thing, I know I would appreciate it (and I'm sure many of the rest of the people on this board would agree) if you stopped treating us all like idiots. Almost every post contains some wording that says we as players don't know how to implement something or whatnot. I understand that you are trying to improve the metagame, and I respect that, but if you insult people in doing so, noone will listen to you, and all that you could have accomplished will be null invoid because everyone responds negatively to insults. If you just gave advice on what the Mario population as a whole could do better without tearing down every current Mario main out there, you would get your point across much more effectively.

EDIT: Anything I didn't quote and discuss from your last post, I either agree with or didn't have enough knowledge to comment on.

 

[Inferno3044]

MK is silly to Yoshi. Just because Yoshi can do some chip with his GR chaingrab doesn't change that MK can crap over his spacing just fine. Now the a character where his GR ACTUALLY matters is against Wario. Yoshi legitimately beats Wario instead of loses slightly because of that. We would probably beat Wario solidly if we had a reliable air release on Wario on the other hand.

I agree that MK is bad for Yoshi and most MKs probably don't know the MU. I feel like the guaranteed damage and kill setup make it easier for Yoshi than for Mario. Wario I guess Yoshi might win due to his infinite, but it's normally really hard to grab Wario and I'm not sure how well Yoshi can do it.

And Mario is definitely better against Snake than Yoshi. More practical approaches. Better kill moves. They both can combo Snake reasonably well, but Mario kills earlier and more easily and has better stage counterpicks (Brinstar especially. Halberd is also better for Mario than it is for Yoshi). Mario also can get away with shielding more than Yoshi, which is very important against Snake especially when dealing with grenades.

Yoshi has much better camping options than Mario does. I've seen Deltacod camp two Snakes. I think Yoshi can deal with one fine. Also Yoshi's Usmash > Mario's Usmash. More range both vertically and horizontally and about as much power. Yoshi can also benefit from flat stages when against Snake.

I know Yoshi has a silly GR chaingrab and Falco doesn't like losing ground from it, but I'd say he gets destroyed about as badly by Falco's insane moveset as Mario does, especially when we factor that Mario can duck under lasers and can do more to keep Falco honest about his Jab mixup game (Mario can D-smash before Falco can Jab cancel grab for instance. SDIing and U-airing and Up-Bing is situationally useful as well. Not things you can count on, but they are options that Falco has to respect if you can do them with some semblance of consistency).

Yoshi I believe has CG > fair on Falco which puts him below the stage which is terrible for Falco. Mario ducking under lasers means doesn't do ****. Mario can't approach while crouching. Honestly, I only really know about the CG for Yoshi. He probably can deal with his camping better than Mario can. Not 100% sure on that though.

I also disagree that we do as poorly against Marth as you think, especially since Mario users haven't demonstrated a solid understanding of ledgedrop edgeguards as well as being able to confirm when U-air out of shield is good for getting out of pressure. Also we combo Marth significantly better than most of you realize.

Ledgedrop edgeguards can result in being stage spiked by UpB. Marth laughs at Mario's uair OOS. It doesn't reach him. I tried. It's pretty hard to combo Marth especially because you have to get through his sword to hit him.

And we do beat Yoshi. You space better since you have better aerials. Your Jab game limits him a lot and prevents him from doing a lot of his usual shenanigans (especially the spotdodge related ones). And you kill him better (especially since he can't really get away with spotdodging easily against Mario). He can't really stop you from approaching if you need to since you have fireballs, which give you a significantly superior zoning game and make it pointless for Yoshi to pivot grab for any reason besides juggling.

The rest is probably right.

I agree that our aerials space better, but Yoshi's aerials mostly aren't meant for spacing. Killing is honestly around even. He has a couple of egg traps that lead to a kill that you have to look out for. Also, I don't understand the "if you have to" when it comes to approaching. Mario can't force an approach on Yoshi. Yoshi's jab beats fireballs. His eggs can halt your approach, but you can cape them. With pivot grab, it's definitely possible depending on your position. He can also punish with Usmash.

 

[A2ZOMG]

How much Yoshi experience do you have A2? Because that all sounds like "on paper" stuff. Yoshi's GR cg on MK is more useful than you make it sound. He can buffer a sliding usmash if done right, and can buffer a fair for a mid-high percent spike on MK when he GR's him at the edge of the stage. Also, Yoshi's pivot grab beats anything MK has as far as range and his egg throw is beastly when you know how to use it well. These two tools do more for Yoshi than pretty much anything of Mario's against MK. I mean, Yoshi can pivot grab nado, for one example!

I probably have more Yoshi experience than you to be honest. I've beaten campy Yoshi players in tournament and online. I'm pretty aware how to not fall for most of Yoshi's shenanigans.

GR CG is best on FD. MK never needs to worry about it on most other stages besides like SV sometimes.

Why is Metaknight approaching recklessly? You WALK against Yoshi and wait for him to commit. He can't force you to commit.

As for the Snake MU, I don't see how you think some of that ^^. Mario may indeed have better approaches, but how does he have better kill moves? Yoshi's usmash and fsmash are just as good as Mario's in my experience (as far as spacing and useability, not sure about kill power, but I expect it's pretty close, just by how it feels and what I've seen) and Yoshi's uair is ridiculous, and because his second jump gives super armor, it's not that hard to land. Same with his nair.

Mario does kill significantly more early than Yoshi on all Smashes. Also Mario has a MUCH better edgetrap game than Yoshi for the simple fact that he's allowed to use Shield as an edgetrap option and then F-smash out of shield if Snake commits to the ledge attack. Mario also worries less about staling U-smash since his D-smash and B-throw are viable KO options, while Yoshi can't really kill with his D-smash or throws at all.

The armor on Yoshi's 2nd jump is crap for the purpose you stated, especially since Yoshi's 2nd jump is extremely telegraphed. Snake can still easily B-air, and given Yoshi has taken damage, it's probably going to beat his armor. Yoshi is better off spacing the U-air than trying to armor.

I feel like you just haven't played any good Yoshi's when you started talking about how we beat him. Mario may end up with a slight advantage on paper, but there are some things that you forgot. When he lands a grab, he has super armor, like most of the cast (lol @olimar). The difference he has from most of the cast is that his grab range is ridiculous, so if you fsmash and he grabs and they land at the same time, he wins. This can also work on FB approaches, although it's less reliable. Also, in my experience, most Yoshi's like to egg camp Mario and force an approach, and as I said before, his egg throw is too good.

Maybe. On the other hand, I did beat a Yoshi in tournament by camping like hell. I never died until 200% every stock, and always killed him at optimal percents for all three Smashes.

Last thing, I know I would appreciate it (and I'm sure many of the rest of the people on this board would agree) if you stopped treating us all like idiots. Almost every post contains some wording that says we as players don't know how to implement something or whatnot. I understand that you are trying to improve the metagame, and I respect that, but if you insult people in doing so, noone will listen to you, and all that you could have accomplished will be null invoid because everyone responds negatively to insults. If you just gave advice on what the Mario population as a whole could do better without tearing down every current Mario main out there, you would get your point across much more effectively.

I treat everyone this way. You guys aren't special here, except for the fact that since I use this character in tournament, I have more to talk about here.

I agree that MK is bad for Yoshi and most MKs probably don't know the MU. I feel like the guaranteed damage and kill setup make it easier for Yoshi than for Mario. Wario I guess Yoshi might win due to his infinite, but it's normally really hard to grab Wario and I'm not sure how well Yoshi can do it.

Grabbing Wario is not as hard as you think it is. And it does change the matchup by at least 10 points on a 100 point scale.

Yoshi has much better camping options than Mario does. I've seen Deltacod camp two Snakes. I think Yoshi can deal with one fine. Also Yoshi's Usmash > Mario's Usmash. More range both vertically and horizontally and about as much power. Yoshi can also benefit from flat stages when against Snake.

Mario's U-smash is significantly stronger. I don't know where you get otherwise. And unlike Yoshi, Mario can viably kill with D-smash and B-throw as well. He doesn't need to worry about stale moves as much so long as he isn't forgetting which moves he's used to damage Snake.

Yoshi I believe has CG > fair on Falco which puts him below the stage which is terrible for Falco. Mario ducking under lasers means doesn't do ****. Mario can't approach while crouching. Honestly, I only really know about the CG for Yoshi. He probably can deal with his camping better than Mario can. Not 100% sure on that though.

Crouching is not a commitment. You walk, then you crouch, then you figure out how to deal with Falco's insane movepool.

Ledgedrop edgeguards can result in being stage spiked by UpB. Marth laughs at Mario's uair OOS. It doesn't reach him. I tried. It's pretty hard to combo Marth especially because you have to get through his sword to hit him.

You're doing it wrong if you're worrying about getting stagespiked, since you should be INVINCIBLE while doing it.

Again, you're doing it wrong if you're not OBSERVING his spacing and noticing where U-airing is useful. In other situations, you should stick to B-airs and U-smash. By learning to PROPERLY implement U-air, you decrease the commitment of your out of shield options.

Marth has to respect your Jab cancel game. U-throw at 0 is actually really good on Marth due to his size. D-throw -> buffered U-smash also hits Marth. If you must, wait til he has about 20% before trying U-air juggles on him.

I agree that our aerials space better, but Yoshi's aerials mostly aren't meant for spacing. Killing is honestly around even. He has a couple of egg traps that lead to a kill that you have to look out for. Also, I don't understand the "if you have to" when it comes to approaching. Mario can't force an approach on Yoshi. Yoshi's jab beats fireballs. His eggs can halt your approach, but you can cape them. With pivot grab, it's definitely possible depending on your position. He can also punish with Usmash.

Yoshi can't force you to do anything. That's what I mean by if you have to approach. Approaching is not a requirement. It's an option. If you get the first kill, which honestly shouldn't be hard, what's he gonna do if you simply wait? Yoshi approaching is generally a bad idea for him.

 

[Juushichi]

Steep, I mostly feel that we do well against Yoshi for most of the reasons that A2 initially said.

I know we both have Yoshi's in our immediate area (MX in my immediate area and Hades in yours), both of which probably stronger than ones A2 have run into (this is conjecture of course). But they play pretty differently. MX doesn't use his eggs like Hades does and is loads more aggressive. Hades is arguably better (plus I know when I played him months back at a Nope's, I got annihilated - while I go even with MX every time).

I guess I got off topic a bit. I think we have a slight advantage at best vs Yoshi, even most of the time and slight disadv on bad days. It fluctuates. And is one of the most even MU's in this game IMO.

We lose to snake. **** that character.

 

[Inferno3044]

I probably have more Yoshi experience than you to be honest. I've beaten campy Yoshi players in tournament and online. I'm pretty aware how to not fall for most of Yoshi's shenanigans.

GR CG is best on FD. MK never needs to worry about it on most other stages besides like SV sometimes.

Why is Metaknight approaching recklessly? You WALK against Yoshi and wait for him to commit. He can't force you to commit.

I doubt you have played a Yoshi as good as Deltacod. When he was in his super campy phase, he knew how to really camp. This guy WOULD NOT APPROACH YOU. Percent down, stock down, didn't matter. He just threw eggs. Eggs can get MK to approach to an extent.

Mario does kill significantly more early than Yoshi on all Smashes. Also Mario has a MUCH better edgetrap game than Yoshi for the simple fact that he's allowed to use Shield as an edgetrap option and then F-smash out of shield if Snake commits to the ledge attack. Mario also worries less about staling U-smash since his D-smash and B-throw are viable KO options, while Yoshi can't really kill with his D-smash or throws at all.

Bthrow is not a viable kill move (at least to me). If you have to be at 160+ to kill with it fresh then it is not a viable kill move. His Usmash kills MK at 115% on FD. I'm pretty sure Mario's isn't too much better. Also Yoshi has aerials that he can kill with, which Mario doesn't have (uair and nair).

Maybe. On the other hand, I did beat a Yoshi in tournament by camping like hell. I never died until 200% every stock, and always killed him at optimal percents for all three Smashes.

Bad yoshi is bad

I treat everyone this way. You guys aren't special here, except for the fact that since I use this character in tournament, I have more to talk about here.

So you admit that you purposely belittle people, put yourself on a higher degree than ANY smasher, think you know every character better than people who actually use their character, never admits someone else is right if they don't agree with you. Combine all this with the lack of results against good players and that is why you aren't respected.

Grabbing Wario is not as hard as you think it is. And it does change the matchup by at least 10 points on a 100 point scale.

I can see this. Yoshi does have a good grab range. Might try and confirm this with Delta or some Wario players.

Mario's U-smash is significantly stronger. I don't know where you get otherwise. And unlike Yoshi, Mario can viably kill with D-smash and B-throw as well. He doesn't need to worry about stale moves as much so long as he isn't forgetting which moves he's used to damage Snake.

Read my above comment.

Crouching is not a commitment. You walk, then you crouch, then you figure out how to deal with Falco's insane movepool.

I guess. Would be much more viable if you could move though.

You're doing it wrong if you're worrying about getting stagespiked, since you should be INVINCIBLE while doing it.

The invincibility isn't that long is it?

Again, you're doing it wrong if you're not OBSERVING his spacing and noticing where U-airing is useful. In other situations, you should stick to B-airs and U-smash. By learning to PROPERLY implement U-air, you decrease the commitment of your out of shield options.

Uair OOS will not hit a Marth if he spaces properly.

Marth has to respect your Jab cancel game. U-throw at 0 is actually really good on Marth due to his size. D-throw -> buffered U-smash also hits Marth. If you must, wait til he has about 20% before trying U-air juggles on him.

He has to respect your jab cancel game if you can get in. If you can't, then you have to respect his sword.

Yoshi can't force you to do anything. That's what I mean by if you have to approach. Approaching is not a requirement. It's an option. If you get the first kill, which honestly shouldn't be hard, what's he gonna do if you simply wait? Yoshi approaching is generally a bad idea for him.

Mario can't force an approach on Yoshi. If anything, Yoshi can force it more on Mario because he can make his eggs land while camping with fireballs shouldn't do anything. Also if you get the first kill Yoshi can still camp

 

[A2ZOMG]

I doubt you have played a Yoshi as good as Deltacod. When he was in his super campy phase, he knew how to really camp. This guy WOULD NOT APPROACH YOU. Percent down, stock down, didn't matter. He just threw eggs. Eggs can get MK to approach to an extent.

Nah, I've definitely played people like that. Yoshi users as well. It's not surprising to me. I'm an extremely patient player myself. I know Deltacod has results, but if you're trying to tell me I don't know what camping is, I beg to differ. I'm probably at least as campy as Deltacod if not more when I really want to do it.

Bthrow is not a viable kill move (at least to me). If you have to be at 160+ to kill with it fresh then it is not a viable kill move. His Usmash kills MK at 115% on FD. I'm pretty sure Mario's isn't too much better. Also Yoshi has aerials that he can kill with, which Mario doesn't have (uair and nair).

Nah, b-throw is totally viable. If you can do that much damage consistently, then it's viable, though you probably wouldn't understand since the things you complain about suggest to me that you need to improve your spacing. And I see PLENTY of Mario users who never have trouble getting Snake to that much damage BEFORE they get killed. They just simply pick the wrong throws. Watch more videos of Mario vs Snake. The average Mario user on a good day can do just fine racking damage on Snake. They just pick suboptimal methods of move management.

Mario can also situationally KO with U-air, N-air, and B-air. It isn't going to happen all the time, but it DOES happen. F-airing Snake offstage also is good for KOs, both sourspotted or sweetspotted. For both Mario and Yoshi actually, though Mario gets more out of it since his double jump is more practical.

Ok to be fair, a 5% difference is small on a lightweight. Against a Snake who is momentum canceling that, I don't have specific numbers atm, but short story is it's a significantly bigger difference.

So you admit that you purposely belittle people, put yourself on a higher degree than ANY smasher, think you know every character better than people who actually use their character, never admits someone else is right if they don't agree with you. Combine all this with the lack of results against good players and that is why you aren't respected.

I don't belittle people. I tell people exactly how it is, and for me, it's business as usual. Nothing personal. If you're offended, it's not my problem. I don't beat around the bush. I simply expect you to understand what I'm talking about after listening the first time. Being blunt is far more practical than being tactful. If you played horribly, I will make it clear. I'm not just gonna mindlessly be a fanboy for any players UNLESS they demonstrate that they know wtf they're doing. If you're hearing me praise you, you better believe you played really well. Of course most people don't actually do that very often yet. So hence hearing praise from me will be uncommon.

I can see this. Yoshi does have a good grab range. Might try and confirm this with Delta or some Wario players.

It's not even having good grab range that makes Wario totally grabbable. It's the fact his aerials are trash for spacing and that he HAS to dodge to the ground at some point, and his ground options are also trash besides F-smash, which still can be grabbed easily. Most of the cast honestly has no trouble grabbing Wario at some point. Don't force it. It WILL happen if you simply have good spacing. Even Ganon can grab Wario. Of course it's more difficult for him since his mobility sucks, but it's far from impossible for him to get a grab on Wario since Wario's aerial spacers are trash and Wario has to actually take stupid risks to get in on Ganon.

I guess. Would be much more viable if you could move though.

I don't get where you say it isn't viable to approach Falco with crouching. The problem at hand isn't so much the lasers as it is the fact Falco has retardedly good normal moves as well as physics that make him difficult to juggle.

The invincibility isn't that long is it?

Ledge invincibility: 1-46
Minimum Time on Ledge: 25 frames
Maximum "usable" ledge grab invincibility: 21

Say you drop from the ledge on frame 30, which is one half a second after grabbing the ledge. Being off by 5 frames is assuming generous error. If your timing is good, your consistency should only be off by around 2 frames. If you're actually getting stagespiked by Marth, your timing is extremely off, since where Marth MIGHT potentially be hitting you once you try an invincible edgedrop, you shouldn't be worried about getting stagespiked generally speaking.

Anyhow you should have at least 16 frames where anything you do in that time is completely invincible, and 16 frames is a HUGE window. N-airing, U-airing, B-airing, hell if you have balls Cape technically can be pulled out with invincibility frames as well. The only catch is you need to be able to read Marth's recovery well enough to know when he's in a position where this is likely to hit him. But if you're invincible for around 16 or more frames, it's not actually that hard to fish for a moment where Marth is likely to get hit out of his recovery. Of course, don't forget the possibility of actually edgehogging his Up-B. In short, you should be grabbing the ledge whenever Marth has to recover low. Use FLUDD, Fireballs, Cape, and B-airs when Marth is higher.

In general, people need to recognize that this is REALLY applicable in general. Even against Metaknight.

Uair OOS will not hit a Marth if he spaces properly.

Learn to zone better then. If you're letting Marth walk all over your shield for free, I guarantee you're not doing something right. Most out of shield options shouldn't hit anyone who spaces properly, even Ganon. If you're not understanding that U-air oos is amazing for it's low commitment and IN GENERAL very applicable against aerial spacing characters, you have work to do.

Mario can't force an approach on Yoshi. If anything, Yoshi can force it more on Mario because he can make his eggs land while camping with fireballs shouldn't do anything. Also if you get the first kill Yoshi can still camp

Zone better with fireballs at midrange. He has no business trying that given that you have a superior midrange zoning game. It's much less of a commitment for you to zone with a fireball than it is for Yoshi to zone with Egg Toss.

And Yoshi is VERY easy to platform camp. Especially given how bad his double jump is (similar story against Lucas and Ness as well, in that their ability to hit above them is gimped by their double jump, though Ness's PKT is an ok workaround for him). Once you have the lead on him, you never have to really worry about him doing much of anything to you, since his offense is bad.

 

[Inferno3044]

Too lazy to quote so I'm gonna list my comments.

What good Yoshi's have you played? Also Delta has learn to go aggro at times and because of it he is a lot better.

I probably should address that it's not that I have bad spacing. It's fair-good but not bad (need to step up the consistency). I can be very impatient though. That's probably one of my worst habits.

Uair, nair, and bair are not kill moves. They might kill when fresh and they won't be for the most part unless you just lost a stock.

Are you saying Wario's aerials are trash? WARIO'S?!? A character who dominates a vast majority of the cast in the air. I don't know where you get the idea that Wario has to air dodge every time. Malcolm autocancels his moves (or the closest you can do with Wario) sometimes.

You need to back your **** up. I hear so much from you "people need to use (insert option here) more" but you have nothing but words to back yourself up. Actions speak louder than words broski. Honestly, that's my beef with you. You are someone claiming they know everything better than everyone else. If this was true, then you should be a nationally ranked player. Either that or you can't apply what you know when you play like every theorycrafter I know not named Pierce7d.

Uair OOS DOES NOT HIT MARTH. I tried this. I've shown what you said about Marth vs. Mario to Pierce and he laughed his *** off. I'm gonna break it down for you and hope you get it this time around. When you initiate a move, a hit box comes out. For Uair, the hitbox is his legs. If his legs don't reach Marth, it won't hit him.

I'm going to say this again. Fireballs don't force **** on Yoshi. He jabs them and they go away. At least for Yoshi he can make the egg pop in your face, but that shouldn't happen often.

How are you going to platform camp yoshi? He has the best aerial mobility in the game out maneuvers you.

 

[Matador]

How is Yoshi outcamping Mario when you have more than enough time to cape each egg?

Heck, you can cape, fireball, and still have time to cape again if he tosses another egg...and that's assuming that the eggs don't collide (the first one you caped and the second one he's tossing).

Also, I think the big problem with Marth is allowing him to fully space on your shield. With perfect spacing, we can't punish much when he Fairs our shield. That's why you don't let him space perfectly, lol.

This is assuming that we don't powershield his Fair.

 

[Inferno3044]

Yoshi's eggs are more versatile. He can more or less decide where they explode. I'm not saying you'll get hit by a lot though because that's definitely not the case.

 

[Kanzaki]

There's no Yoshis in SoCal, no experience x.x


Only experience was a few years back when Furbs was still active =/


For Marth's, just don't get intimidated by his sword, just play it safe. And also what Larry(I believe?) once said, wait for him to swing his sword, THEN attack xD

 

[A2ZOMG]

I probably should address that it's not that I have bad spacing. It's fair-good but not bad (need to step up the consistency). I can be very impatient though. That's probably one of my worst habits.

Proved my point regardless. Since you obviously can't analyze that it's YOUR problem and YOUR mistake, that's why you complain.

Uair, nair, and bair are not kill moves. They might kill when fresh and they won't be for the most part unless you just lost a stock.

If you edgeguard really well though, killing with these aerials isn't unrealistic.

Are you saying Wario's aerials are trash? WARIO'S?!? A character who dominates a vast majority of the cast in the air. I don't know where you get the idea that Wario has to air dodge every time. Malcolm autocancels his moves (or the closest you can do with Wario) sometimes.

Wario's aerial SPACERS are trash. His airs are okay, but only for punishes. He can't actually get in on you easily with his aerials though. He HAS to dodge if your spacing is actually good in order to get in on you with any real consistency.

You need to back your **** up. I hear so much from you "people need to use (insert option here) more" but you have nothing but words to back yourself up. Actions speak louder than words broski. Honestly, that's my beef with you. You are someone claiming they know everything better than everyone else. If this was true, then you should be a nationally ranked player. Either that or you can't apply what you know when you play like every theorycrafter I know not named Pierce7d.

It doesn't take a great player to make good observations. Adumbrodeus knows what he's talking about for instance. He doesn't get out too much with results. Pierce makes lots of GREAT observations and doesn't back up a lot of them.

Uair OOS DOES NOT HIT MARTH. I tried this. I've shown what you said about Marth vs. Mario to Pierce and he laughed his *** off. I'm gonna break it down for you and hope you get it this time around. When you initiate a move, a hit box comes out. For Uair, the hitbox is his legs. If his legs don't reach Marth, it won't hit him.

Of course he'd laugh his *** off at you. Your Mario hasn't demonstrated a strong understanding of the fundamentals I've explained. Furthermore he knows your playstyle in and out and probably outplays you due to his significantly better fundamentals.

I'm going to say this again. Fireballs don't force **** on Yoshi. He jabs them and they go away. At least for Yoshi he can make the egg pop in your face, but that shouldn't happen often.

You ZONE as in you threaten him into getting punished for commitment. That is why fireballs are better. You control midrange better because you can limit his commitments better.

How are you going to platform camp yoshi? He has the best aerial mobility in the game out maneuvers you.

Yoshi's jumps and aerials do not let him punish you easily for platform camping. Simple enough. If you simply shield on a platform, what's he gonna do? Throw out random command grabs that you can dodge on reaction?

 

[Inferno3044]

Proved my point regardless. Since you obviously can't analyze that it's YOUR problem and YOUR mistake, that's why you complain.

I know my problems. They would be solved if I actually had a wii (which I will on Friday). I'm gonna take what I learned from LoL and see if that makes me better. It worked for Malcolm.

Wario's aerial SPACERS are trash. His airs are okay, but only for punishes. He can't actually get in on you easily with his aerials though. He HAS to dodge if your spacing is actually good in order to get in on you with any real consistency.

I just feel like you underestimate Wario. His aerials are really good and his aerial mobility makes them even better.

It doesn't take a great player to make good observations. Adumbrodeus knows what he's talking about for instance. He doesn't get out too much with results. Pierce makes lots of GREAT observations and doesn't back up a lot of them.

Pierce actually applies what he knows. I personally just think knowledge is useless if you can't implement it.

Of course he'd laugh his *** off at you. Your Mario hasn't demonstrated a strong understanding of the fundamentals I've explained. Furthermore he knows your playstyle in and out and probably outplays you due to his significantly better fundamentals.

He laughed his *** off when he read your posts *******. Then I trolled by implementing what you said and got 3 stocked.

You ZONE as in you threaten him into getting punished for commitment. That is why fireballs are better. You control midrange better because you can limit his commitments better.

What is he committing to? He stands there and he jabs the fireball. The only thing he commits to is pressing the attack button. And if you get too close he run under you and Usmash. Stop acting like I don't know what I'm talking about.

Yoshi's jumps and aerials do not let him punish you easily for platform camping. Simple enough. If you simply shield on a platform, what's he gonna do? Throw out random command grabs that you can dodge on reaction?[/QUOTE]

First of all, egg lay is a very viable option. Poltergust loves egg lay and lands it very well. Also Yoshi's dair eats shields alive which can lead to nair.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

another day another pointless argument.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I just feel like you underestimate Wario. His aerials are really good and his aerial mobility makes them even better.

Wario has three decent-ish aerials, and neither of them is actually good for spacing. His N-air, U-air, and D-air, which are ALL best for punishes, crap for actual spacing purposes. It doesn't take much to outspace Wario. Luigi has a bad spacing game, and early on Wario mains listed him as a bad matchup until they learned to use more F-smash against him. It takes more effort to defeat Wario without getting F-smashed for trying too hard to kill him. He also relies heavily on edgeguarding you with Waft to actually kill you if he can't F-smash you, which while overall not a bad strategy, is still iffy and can usually be avoided on a read.

Wario does NOT dominate most characters in the air. He dominates them on the basis of punishes, and he doesn't really have any matchups where he crushes anyone in terms of tools. It's the same principle as Snake, only he's better at not getting killed in matchups where you can't grab him for an easy kill, worse at getting in without taking damage. The main reason he's good is mostly because killing him requires taking stupid risks, but actually controlling him is easy for most characters. He would probably be low tier if the entire cast had an air release on him. Wario treads on a very fine line that only barely keeps him above most other characters. That line is crossed when Mario takes him to Brinstar for instance, where his threat of F-smash mostly disappears, while Mario's superior control takes priority.

Pierce actually applies what he knows. I personally just think knowledge is useless if you can't implement it.

I do implement what I know, which is one reason why I can tell you it works. Getting to tournaments is the hard part for me. Most people who play me on the ladder however can recognize that my Mario is solid as well as extremely technical.

He laughed his *** off when he read your posts *******. Then I trolled by implementing what you said and got 3 stocked.

You didn't implement what I said most likely. You just tried your hand at random **** that you didn't practice for even a minute and got bodied because you have no tech skill. The stuff I say that works is stuff that I've spent at least a good week toying with and implementing into my comfort zone before saying to everyone that "yes, it's practical and realistic to use this competitively AND very useful". It's also why I can tell you what stages are actually good for Mario, since I actually do implement stuff in matches and can understand when things are making me land hits more easily.

What is he committing to? He stands there and he jabs the fireball. The only thing he commits to is pressing the attack button. And if you get too close he run under you and Usmash. Stop acting like I don't know what I'm talking about.

What is Yoshi NOT committing to? If this lets you ignore his slight threat of pivot grab and egg toss, the purpose of fireballs is accomplished, since Yoshi's MAIN strategy hinges on you badly approaching him. Also if you bait your opponent into hitting a button that is not named shield, it's a free F-smash keep in mind, and it's worth noting your F-smash is both more powerful and longer ranged than his.

First of all, egg lay is a very viable option. Poltergust loves egg lay and lands it very well. Also Yoshi's dair eats shields alive which can lead to nair.

You can see all those coming from a mile away, especially if you platform camp on BF's top platform for instance given how much he has to extend himself to actually cover that platform. And why would Yoshi bother using D-air when you can easily angle shield to nullify the threat and potentially punish if he's in range? It's not like he can really frametrap anything after the D-air anyway. Unlike Mario's D-air which ACTUALLY is a legit frametrap tool.

 

[Kanzaki]

How do you say you implement stuff.. then say you dont goto tournies... then quote a wifi ladder.

if wifi is serious business, a bunch of people said that i have a pro jiggly, lucas, falcon, and link xD

 

[Inferno3044]

Wario has three decent-ish aerials, and neither of them is actually good for spacing. His N-air, U-air, and D-air, which are ALL best for punishes, crap for actual spacing purposes. It doesn't take much to outspace Wario. Luigi has a bad spacing game, and early on Wario mains listed him as a bad matchup until they learned to use more F-smash against him. It takes more effort to defeat Wario without getting F-smashed for trying too hard to kill him. He also relies heavily on edgeguarding you with Waft to actually kill you if he can't F-smash you, which while overall not a bad strategy, is still iffy and can usually be avoided on a read.

Wario does NOT dominate most characters in the air. He dominates them on the basis of punishes, and he doesn't really have any matchups where he crushes anyone in terms of tools. It's the same principle as Snake, only he's better at not getting killed in matchups where you can't grab him for an easy kill, worse at getting in without taking damage. The main reason he's good is mostly because killing him requires taking stupid risks, but actually controlling him is easy for most characters. He would probably be low tier if the entire cast had an air release on him. Wario treads on a very fine line that only barely keeps him above most other characters. That line is crossed when Mario takes him to Brinstar for instance, where his threat of F-smash mostly disappears, while Mario's superior control takes priority.

So Wario is apparently bad and Brinstar is a bad stage for him. I'm pretty sure people who actually play Wario will agree.

I do implement what I know, which is one reason why I can tell you it works. Getting to tournaments is the hard part for me. Most people who play me on the ladder however can recognize that my Mario is solid as well as extremely technical.

So you implement it, but you don't go to tourneys where you can implement them. That's terrible logic. I've played my 12 year old brother with low tier characters and I implement things all the time like hitting him with Falcon Punch or Bowser's Fsmash. Just because it can work on one person doesn't mean it's viable. And yeah wifi ladder is serious biz.

You didn't implement what I said most likely. You just tried your hand at random **** that you didn't practice for even a minute and got bodied because you have no tech skill. The stuff I say that works is stuff that I've spent at least a good week toying with and implementing into my comfort zone before saying to everyone that "yes, it's practical and realistic to use this competitively AND very useful". It's also why I can tell you what stages are actually good for Mario, since I actually do implement stuff in matches and can understand when things are making me land hits more easily.

I'll admit I was trolling your comments (as stated in my post), but just think about it. Just tell me how you are going to hit Marth when he is out of range of your Uair.

What is Yoshi NOT committing to? If this lets you ignore his slight threat of pivot grab and egg toss, the purpose of fireballs is accomplished, since Yoshi's MAIN strategy hinges on you badly approaching him. Also if you bait your opponent into hitting a button that is not named shield, it's a free F-smash keep in mind, and it's worth noting your F-smash is both more powerful and longer ranged than his.

They still don't really stop the threat. Plus if you're camping he can't pivot grab you because that requires you to approach. How the **** are you going to chain a fireball to Fsmash? If you're in range to use Fsmash, Yoshi can run under you can Usmash. It has a lot of range, but it's not a projectile.

You can see all those coming from a mile away, especially if you platform camp on BF's top platform for instance given how much he has to extend himself to actually cover that platform. And why would Yoshi bother using D-air when you can easily angle shield to nullify the threat and potentially punish if he's in range? It's not like he can really frametrap anything after the D-air anyway. Unlike Mario's D-air which ACTUALLY is a legit frametrap tool.

Mario's Fsmash is very telegraphed but you say you can land that easily. Even the best people get hit by moves that are extremely telegraphed. IC's CG, Pikachu's Thunder, and ZSS's Dsmash are all telegraphed but even the best players get hit. What does Mario's dair even frametrap to?

Do you like arguing with me? It never leads anywhere.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So Wario is apparently bad and Brinstar is a bad stage for him. I'm pretty sure people who actually play Wario will agree.

Wario mains don't know better. They don't play this matchup on Brinstar. I'm here to tell you to take advantage of that since they will NEVER ban Brinstar against you due to their lack of knowledge.

Wario is good, but not for the reasons people SAY he's good for. He doesn't actually dominate anyone toolwise. He wins matches through simple brute force, and is allowed to do so since most characters have to go through stupid risks to kill him, and since his punishes are GOOD. If Wario's F-smash was weaker, or if more of the cast could air release him, he would be low tier, but that isn't the case. He lucked out. Unlike Jiggs who doesn't have Wario's stupid F-smash, but instead has to rely on her significantly weaker Dash Attack to pose a similar threat. Jiggs with Wario's F-smash however would be an insanely broken character, close to if not better than Metaknight status. Point remains, people need to stop overhyping Wario's air game. It's the threat of his punishes that makes him good. He's crap at getting in against good spacing games favorably without the threat of his F-smash.

So you implement it, but you don't go to tourneys where you can implement them. That's terrible logic. I've played my 12 year old brother with low tier characters and I implement things all the time like hitting him with Falcon Punch or Bowser's Fsmash. Just because it can work on one person doesn't mean it's viable. And yeah wifi ladder is serious biz.

Inferno, use your head and learn what freaking analysis is. It's not hard, or I hope it isn't. I did in fact place first in a local not long ago, though admittedly the only real player there was Dantarion, whose DK and Snake I beat solidly. Also it doesn't take a genius to realize Flameleon is on another level even if the vast majority of his recorded matches are wifi matches.

I'll admit I was trolling your comments (as stated in my post), but just think about it. Just tell me how you are going to hit Marth when he is out of range of your Uair.

Inferno, BEFORE you say anything else, try to learn what spacing confirmation is. You SEE your opponent's spacing, and if they are in range, you do your option. If they aren't, you DON'T. This is just common sense. If he's not in that range, see if you can B-air or U-smash him. If not, then jump backwards and fireball. Honestly if you're a creative player, your opponent should be making minor errors that allow you to get in. Minor errors as in the fact people are human and not machines that always space 100% perfectly at every given frame. Bigger errors are more like getting hit by Snake in general.

In the event you **** up however, U-air oos is MUCH less unsafe than N-airing for instance, and you can for example pull out a B-air before you land after your initial U-air.

Also, one spacing trick that is universally useful that NO Mario user besides myself and recently Matador knows about is buffered fullhop U-air to autocancel D-air. This is also useful out of shield or for mixups, since the buffered U-air DOES hit most standing characters.

They still don't really stop the threat. Plus if you're camping he can't pivot grab you because that requires you to approach. How the **** are you going to chain a fireball to Fsmash? If you're in range to use Fsmash, Yoshi can run under you can Usmash. It has a lot of range, but it's not a projectile.

If you're in midrange and zoning with fireballs, if the Yoshi isn't stupid, he's not going to commit to anything that will make him unnecessarily take free hits. Big commitments include Egg Tossing and Pivot Grabbing of course.

Watch Flameleon. He does Fireball -> F-smash quite often. Requires you to do a reverse F-smash, but point is it's a very strong mixup and has to be respected. Spaced correctly, it actually combos.

Mario's Fsmash is very telegraphed but you say you can land that easily. Even the best people get hit by moves that are extremely telegraphed. IC's CG, Pikachu's Thunder, and ZSS's Dsmash are all telegraphed but even the best players get hit. What does Mario's dair even frametrap to?

Hmmm, when did I say Mario's F-smash is easy to land? I might have said that there are viable ways to condition people into being baited into it. Though there are a lot of Mario users who are pretty bad about telegraphing it.

Dunno why you mentioned ICs CG. It's grabbing, so it's not relevant since grabbing has universal setups for basically everyone. Pikachu's Thunder MOSTLY shouldn't hit you unless you DI badly, in which case against bad DI, it's free. ZSS's D-smash I don't understand why anyone gets hit by it these days. I don't get where your argument is leading. If good players are getting hit by ZSS's D-smash, they need to stop being so ****ing careless since there is almost no reason to not shield when in doubt against ZSS due to her grab being terrible.

And against Yoshi and many characters, there is no reason for them to be hitting you if you platform camp them. They don't have the frame data to stop you from shielding their attack and jumping out of shield to safety. ESPECIALLY on a stage like Brinstar where there is 0 threat of getting hit out of your jump startup frames by a random U-tilt. Yoshi in particular is gimped by his double jump when platform pressuring, since he commits HEAVILY on that. Hitting anything above him is a huge commitment that is telegraphed as hell since he lost the ability to double jump cancel. And it's not like his aerials have particularly amazing frame data.

Mario's D-air is one of the FEW aerials in the game that actually can frametrap jump out of shield. Only like...MK (U-air), G&W (N-air), Luigi (F-air), and Squirtle (U-air) also have aerials that are INSANELY fast enough to do this. It's why Mario is stupid on Brinstar. He can platform camp most characters just fine on that stage since platform pressure is mostly nonexistent for most characters on that stage. Most characters INCLUDING Wario cannot platform camp him back since it's too difficult for them to escape from his D-air mixups.

Do you like arguing with me? It never leads anywhere.

As a matter of a fact, I do like arguments. I live for intelligent discussion and running my thought process. I only am disappointed that you don't understand proper tool and match analysis. It shows in the problems you complain about from experience. You don't analyze enough WHY you have problems. For example, you would be complaining about how much concentration it takes to beat Snake as opposed to how gay his U-tilt is on Halberd if you actually knew how to do freaking match and tool analysis and the RIGHT way to learn from experience, just given that Snake in general is the one matchup where everything he does is totally manageable, but playing suboptimally more than a few times isn't allowed. Instead of whining about how you got killed at 90% on Halberd by Snake's U-tilt, you should tell yourself that it was stupid you basically LET him do that, given how much less mobility he has than you. Mostly hypothetical example, but you have to recognize what avoidable mistakes are. They do happen, BUT since they are avoidable, you should minimize them.

Similarly, you are extremely good at taking things in completely the wrong context. Start taking me more literally, because if you take me word for word, I guarantee you there are no contradictions. For example it's a fact Wario has some of the worst spacing tools in the game and that he doesn't dominate most characters in the air. OTHER things make him a good character, such as the threat of his insane F-smash combined with his weight and just the general fact not everyone air releases him for free kills.

 

[steep]

You're really smart A2. You're just an ***.

Go to some legit tourneys, give us some results, and then EVERYONE will recognize you. If you have results, NOONE will be able to argue with you. I live in freakin' Columbus, IN, and go to college in Muncie, IN, and I can tell you that it's hard for me to go to tourneys too. This entire summer there is only one tourney that is less than a 2 hour drive away, and a majority of them would be much further. I mean, Calebyte is going to a tourney that is 7 hours away and that's a better option than a lot of others!

My point is, YES it's tough to get to tourneys, but until you have REAL, CONCRETE results against really good players, OFFLINE, you're just an ***hole running his mouth.

 

[Inferno3044]

Ending the argument because, as usual, it's going nowhere.

So who do you guys think are gonna be in the NBA finals? No favoritism.

 

[Matador]

I like when u guys argue, lmao.

D'you guys ever give a legitimate shot to what A2 suggests? Tourney results or not (hasn't he been to two tourneys recently?), if some of the stuff he's saying actually works (Dair frametraps work. Lol, fireball to Fsmash works, I do this all the time. Just pivot as soon as you land so that it comes out stutter-stepped, otherwise it never reaches. Even if your timing is off, it pushes their shield if your spacing is good, so they can't really shieldgrab as a punish or anything unless they're Oli or have a long tether grab.) then awesome...if they don't, then they don't.

Lets stop looking at where the info is coming from and just start looking at the info...because in all honesty, very few of us are really all that good if you look at tourney results.

 

[Kanzaki]

I'd like to point out the tourney A2Z got first in was the same day as Mikehaze's EK4 tourney which included OOS people >.>

I got first place in a school tourney a few times before too :D

Anywho, with what A2Z has to say, 1/25 of them actually works, and most of the time are just common sense stuff(IMO)... the rest are just useless garbage that doesn't really work, or is him pretty much saying "READ GOOD!"

Check out my new sig :D

 

[Matador]

Can't see it T_T

Once I get to a computer, I'll comment, lol

 

[Kanzaki]

Just for you Matador, I'll quote my own sig :D

"Rock Paper Scissors Theory Crafting 2.0 - If your opponent uses paper, you should use scissors, and so forth. If you delay your reaction by 1 frame, you have the frame advantage over your opponent, and can frame trap their hand, which you should use to pull off a perfect response.

Theory Crafting wins."

 

[mars16]

I think the slide to Fsmash is pretty cool baiting tool.
I used it and it worked

 

[Inferno3044]

I'd like to point out the tourney A2Z got first in was the same day as Mikehaze's EK4 tourney which included OOS people >.>

I got first place in a school tourney a few times before too :D

Anywho, with what A2Z has to say, 1/25 of them actually works, and most of the time are just common sense stuff(IMO)... the rest are just useless garbage that doesn't really work, or is him pretty much saying "READ GOOD!"

Check out my new sig :D

I know I told you this on AIM, but your sig is hilarious.

I like having debates with A2 sometimes tbh, but eventually they get annoying. It might be that I assume he understands some things I don't actually say. For example, yes Uair OOS will hit Marth if he's in range but why would he be so close? To get hit by Mario's Uair OOS, he would have to fully commit his fair which he doesn't have to do or have worse spacing than A2 thinks I have. Bair wouldn't work instead of Uair because bair will hit behind you and Marth will be in front.

Also, yeah if Yoshi's close and makes a completely idiotic option like the one A2 showed me then Fsmash will connect. Flameleon whiffed an Fsmash and the Yoshi pivot grabs. If he did any other option he would've successfully punished it. Pivot grabbing gave him the space to shoot the fireball. Then the Yoshi player was dumb and pivot grabbed again when the fireball got out, got hit, and died. Fair enough that in that situation, jab might not have worked, but he could've easily avoided that Fsmash and just made dumb opinions.

 

[Omari]

Fireball>Shutter Step Front Smash=Legit kill setup but the only setback is that it's linear (hits at 1 angle). Full hop>fireball (at apex)>jab is an excellent approach. The high angle fireball covers jumping, shielding (for poking), rolling (away), attacking (to cancel out your opponent's attack), etc while jab covers dodging (spot dodge) & you can pivot jab to cover them rolling behind you (idea stolen from Boss-jabs side2side between stocks whenever bored).

Important: D-air>f-tilt angled up hits faster (combos effectively) when your control stick returns to neutral, input diagonal up (towards your opponent, direction you hit them, etc) on your control stick plus the attack button instead of holding your control stick after the d-air.

Guaranteeing hits is important (MO) which is why I love troubleshooting moves.

There are two ways of hitting (hitting with Mario's arms or his body) with d-airing on ground believe it or not. Hitting with his arms has more horizontal knock-back than vertical (f-tilt angled up (recommended), d-smash & jab come to mind) & hitting with his body has about an even amount of both angles (u-tilt, f-tilt angled up & jab come to mind).

Other Viable Options: Jab (unless you're holding) isn't much of a reward (it'd benefit you more if your opponent were as low to the ground as possible when airborne before taking advantage of landing lag) for the trouble (even though simple to confirm), grab isn't guaranteed (suits mind games) & SJP is an extremely reckless combo (depending on opponent(s)) with large style points.

I'm not exactly sure why this works but I find smashers become more open to utilizing certain moves when they understand the reasoning behind it (why). Still testing.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I like having debates with A2 sometimes tbh, but eventually they get annoying. It might be that I assume he understands some things I don't actually say. For example, yes Uair OOS will hit Marth if he's in range but why would he be so close? To get hit by Mario's Uair OOS, he would have to fully commit his fair which he doesn't have to do or have worse spacing than A2 thinks I have. Bair wouldn't work instead of Uair because bair will hit behind you and Marth will be in front.

I'm assuming the Marth player has GOOD spacing when I tell you that U-air oos is amazing. It's actually just a really fricken practical option in general, since even if you whiff it, there's ways to keep maintaining a position of mixup after it due to the extremely low commitment. If you're letting Marth get away with spacing that you cannot punish all day, step up your zoning. It is your job to create opportunities in this matchup, not to let him eliminate them.

Marth has to come to you, not the other way around. And way to theorycraft poorly bro. If you're sitting around like a statue letting him hit the front of your shield all day, of course you're gonna lose, but your character is not a statue. You have mobility and you CAN in fact do things to trick him as well as the fact Mario is very capable of getting massive reward on Marth. In general, I'm telling you to be more technical, because that's how you win against Marth. You have to have mastery over your spacing, and you must have an intimate understanding of what followups and what edgeguard techniques work on him. Until a single Mario user demonstrates that they understand how GOOD grabbing the edge is against Marth, you have no say in my book complaining about how stupid the matchup is. I've been getting off quite a few stagespike kills or outright gimps against some Marth players in ladder matches and in offline friendlies ever since I started practicing invincible edgedrops. It's relatively low risk, and potentially extremely rewarding (if you're getting stagespiked, you're doing it waaaaay too slowly).

 

[Kanzaki]

My Lucas vs A2Z's Mario for 20 dollars already.

I'd like to add on, my Marth vs A2Z's Mario as well for another 20 :]


I agree Marth isn't as hard as people make him out to be, but what A2Z is saying just does not make sense x.x

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd rather not MM your Marth. I'd rather just teach and demonstrate in person rather than hear you john about how your Marth sucks. Also I'd rather MM your Lucas with another garbage character such as Ganon, to prove my point that Lucas fundamentally has bad juggle options and sucks at chasing rolls and that you don't need to do anything fancy to win against him when he isn't much of a threat in the first place. I WILL make the matchup take forever if you go up against my Mario. I feel like I have better things to do than cater to you who obviously doesn't know what they're talking about, but if you insist, things will go by much faster if I pick Ganon, since I might actually have to do more than get a lead and platform camp.

You'll have to wait anyhow for me to attend one of the E4J tournaments during the summer.

 

[Kanzaki]

When have I said my Marth sucks? My Marth's pretty good, multiple people actually told me to main Marth instead of Fox/Mario, Marth's just not my style for tournament play >.>

And all I'm hearing from you right now are pre-Johns, "Oh, your Lucas beat me, I was using a garbage character anyways".

Since I obviously don't know what I'm talking about, although I play against a Lucas all day who rivaled Oats back in the day as best Lucas in SoCal. So go ahead, make it a long match, it's fine. I've timed out multiple people with my Mario, I don't care if it's a long match. It's okay if you're scared to use your Mario against my Lucas =/

Let me know which E4J you're going to, I'll happily go as well. I'm busy next couple of weekends due to projects/graduation, but I'll make time just for you :]