Mario Questions and Answers; Ask here first!

[A2ZOMG]

I'm not gonna john if my Ganon loses to you, since I have invested a lot of time in the character. I'm very confident I can beat your Lucas with my Ganon. Lucas has bad punishes in general. It's not a particularly bad matchup for Ganon simply because the entire cast doesn't give a **** about Lucas's punishes. Just far less boring than Mario vs Lucas, where I am CONFIDENT I can time you out on pretty much any stage that isn't named FD. Logically though you shouldn't be afraid of my Ganon since he's of course the worst character in the game, and he's not my main (though people do often ask me if I main Ganon). I'm not worried though since the matchup is Lucas.

And again, I don't want to play your Marth. I'd much rather play Mike's Marth for demonstration purposes (or Bardul, if he's around). Feeding your ego is not my goal. Educating the masses is what matters.

 

[Kanzaki]

If you're confident in the Mario vs Lucas match up, it's a free 20 dollar for you. Why not?

I don't care for fighting Ganons, like you said so yourself, he's garbage. And this argument started AS Lucas vs Mario, not Ganon. So either you're afraid to fight my Lucas, although you say you're confident in it, or the fact that you're just not confident in the match up and just pre-Johning.

Although I'm not on Mikehaze's caliber of Marth, you're saying that you're theory crafting will work on arguably the best Marth right now..? That's cool I guess.

Also, Bardull isn't currently active, proof of your activity of late. Experience beats theory crafting =/

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't play for money. I play to make points.

I'd rather not waste 8 minutes platform camping on a lead given the opportunity. I'd much prefer to make my point in less time since there's other people I want to meet given how difficult it is for me to make it to tournaments and I also would rather not expend that much energy on non-tournament matches. My point in general is that Lucas has bad punishes, and that you should be taking advantage of that fundamentally. I don't need to use Mario to prove that Lucas is a limited character who can't do much to punish you if you don't make dumb commitments. My point is best made by demonstrating Ganon, the worst character in the game, does well against him. If you beat my Ganon, then props since I spend a lot of time practicing the character.

And yes I'd much rather play a real Marth main in the matchup. I'm not expecting to win mostly. I'm expecting to demonstrate that the things I talk about work against good players. I don't want to go up against you and then win because your Marth is suboptimal. I want to go up against a LEGIT Marth main and lose because the guy actually knows what he's doing, but not before demonstrating that there is stuff that works in the matchup.

 

[Kanzaki]

That's cute, you think you can beat my Marth.

gg.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Most definitely. He's not your main, and even then you don't really know much about your main anyway. Also you are a defensive player by default, which is a suboptimal mindset for using the character effectively, and yet you don't understand that Lucas is easy to platform camp effectively. I'm not scared of your Marth. I'm willing to bet I'm perfectly capable of outplaying you in a spacing war and then winning off my knowledge of how to combo and gimp Marth. That's not what I want to do though.

I'm NOT expecting to win in my demonstration of how the matchup works. I'm expecting the matchup to be played WELL. I'll take on Haze any day over you for that reason alone. Demonstrating that my tech skill is in fact useful against Haze >>> demonstrating that it's useful against non-Marth mainers.

 

[Matador]

Whatever you guys decide to do, plz record.

Seriously, please record.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Don't worry it won't happen

 

[Kanzaki]

Most likely wont. Matador, you have a better chance of coming out here to Cali then A2Z does going to a legit tourney xD

Any who, good luck with Mikehaze :D

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm assuming the Marth player has GOOD spacing when I tell you that U-air oos is amazing. It's actually just a really fricken practical option in general, since even if you whiff it, there's ways to keep maintaining a position of mixup after it due to the extremely low commitment. If you're letting Marth get away with spacing that you cannot punish all day, step up your zoning. It is your job to create opportunities in this matchup, not to let him eliminate them.

Honestly, now I'm just thinking you're really dumb. If you whiff the Uair, you're gonna get hit.

Marth has to come to you, not the other way around. And way to theorycraft poorly bro. If you're sitting around like a statue letting him hit the front of your shield all day, of course you're gonna lose, but your character is not a statue. You have mobility and you CAN in fact do things to trick him as well as the fact Mario is very capable of getting massive reward on Marth. In general, I'm telling you to be more technical, because that's how you win against Marth. You have to have mastery over your spacing, and you must have an intimate understanding of what followups and what edgeguard techniques work on him. Until a single Mario user demonstrates that they understand how GOOD grabbing the edge is against Marth, you have no say in my book complaining about how stupid the matchup is. I've been getting off quite a few stagespike kills or outright gimps against some Marth players in ladder matches and in offline friendlies ever since I started practicing invincible edgedrops. It's relatively low risk, and potentially extremely rewarding (if you're getting stagespiked, you're doing it waaaaay too slowly).

The reason Marth comes to Mario is because it's more beneficial, not because he has to. The point of my statement is that you can punish with bair or uair OOS; not both. That was my point to when you said, "if uair doesn't work, use bair." I know how to fight Marth because I've played a lot against multiple good Marth's. In fact, Marth is one of my favorite MUs despite how bad it is. Just because you found one option that has worked on some Marth's that probably are nobody's doesn't mean you know more. Most Marth's just don't know the MU just like how most people don't know low tier MUs.

Please play Mikehaze and record it. You have to go to a legitimate tourney though.

 

[Omari]

Random tip: Having trouble understanding if your f-tilt (any angle) is well spaced? Use your sense of touch (you should (MO) be using all your senses). My controller preference is Nintendo Game Cube Controller (NGCC) with the vibration enabled. There's a large vibration when the f-tilt isn't well spaced & a small vibration when it is. *Testing how to make f-tilt hit faster after d-airing toward the ground (hold or tilt+attack).

@Inferno: You going to ktar5 this weekend? If so, pm me your cell (me & a friend may need a ride). May have to teach a class this weekend but if not, I'd like for you to pick me up at one of the bus stations in NJ. Thanks.

@A2ZOMG & Kanzaki: I'd love to play both of you 1v1, 2v1, IDGaF...Wisdom...goes a long way.

 

[BarDulL]

named searched

a2zomg's G&W/mario are actually not bad, idk how he would do against mikey though.

continue discussion

 

[Omari]

Personally, I don't believe there's a best or worst (multiple categories) but other smashers here get the impression that A2ZOMG may come across as an arrogant ******* (which I don't think he intends to be). MO, he loves this game unconditionally. There's always something more to be learned from the community because not everyone thinks the same but that's just me...

 

[Inferno3044]

named searched

a2zomg's G&W/mario are actually not bad, idk how he would do against mikey though.

continue discussion

I'm not going to say he is bad because I haven't seen that many vids of him. I'm just saying Mario vs. Marth is awful. I have said that the MU is 7:3 Marth's favor and even then I don't mathematically agree with it.

 

[steep]

@a2z: watch Mekos play lucas against ADHD. It doesn't seem like he has a hard time because he isn't trying to punish most of the time. He uses PK Fire to shield pressure him and stays out of ADHD's zoning attempts. I don't see why you say lucas is so bad, that's all. here's the video, with commentary by Mekos himself:

ADHD vs Mekos INTENSE MATCH!! WITH COMMENTARY!

 

[Kanzaki]

Adhd obviously doesn't know how to play the match up </sarcasm>

 

[Deathfox30]

How do I beat a level 8 Jigglypuff with Mario? Her spacing is godly, she punishes my cross-ups by somehow shield grabbing behind her, and she breaks my shield with pound then hits me with a fully charged Rollout. I feel like I'm never safe...

Tips on the MU?

 

[Coolwhip]

How do I beat a level 8 Jigglypuff with Mario? Her spacing is godly, she punishes my cross-ups by somehow shield grabbing behind her, and she breaks my shield with pound then hits me with a fully charged Rollout. I feel like I'm never safe...

Tips on the MU?

Ahh....You're fighting a cpu jiggs? O_o

 

[Inferno3044]

@a2z: watch Mekos play lucas against ADHD. It doesn't seem like he has a hard time because he isn't trying to punish most of the time. He uses PK Fire to shield pressure him and stays out of ADHD's zoning attempts. I don't see why you say lucas is so bad, that's all. here's the video, with commentary by Mekos himself:

ADHD vs Mekos INTENSE MATCH!! WITH COMMENTARY!

Mekos is a very good player. Regardless of how a MU looks on paper, the player can still be good and do work. Ike is a bad character and San wrecks people with him. KingKong does the same thing with Bowser.

How do I beat a level 8 Jigglypuff with Mario? Her spacing is godly, she punishes my cross-ups by somehow shield grabbing behind her, and she breaks my shield with pound then hits me with a fully charged Rollout. I feel like I'm never safe...

Tips on the MU?

Stop failing XD

 

[Deathfox30]

Whenever I try to quote your post it gives me this: http://easycaptures.com/fs/uploaded/438/6119968294.png

Yes, I'm fighting a level 8 CPU Jigglypuff. I can't even recover against her because she just D smashes me out of Up B and I get stage spiked.

I can upload a set if needed.

 

[Coolwhip]

I don't know what to tell you deathfox. A cpu should not be ****** you @ all tbh. xD
I don't think we have or even talk about the jiggs mu. Play wango's jiggs & come back here.

 

[Deathfox30]

I don't know what to tell you deathfox. A cpu should not be ****** you @ all tbh. xD
I don't think we have or even talk about the jiggs mu. Play wango's jiggs & come back here.

You're obviously underestimating my level 8 CPU Jigglypuff. She powershields EVERYTHING and punishes everything. I can't even jump without getting Fair'd. If I roll/spot dodge she ***** me hard and she destroys my shield with Dair and finishes it off with Pound.

 

[ADHD]

Lol, lucas is like x3 easier offline. You literally can't avoid PK fire.

 

[Coolwhip]

Lol, lucas is like x3 easier offline. You literally can't avoid PK fire.

With mario you can. :D

 

[steep]

Lol, lucas is like x3 easier offline. You literally can't avoid PK fire.

When I first posted the video I didn't realize it was online.... Lol My bad.

 

[Blubolouis]

How bad is mario's nair OOS?
Should I use Dsmash as a punisher or keep it fresh for the kill (since I don't land fsmash that easily if at all)?
Can mario edgeguard marth with invincible aerials from the ledge? Is it reliable? (I suppose Nair, Uair or Bair)

I think I'm beginning to like mario, I might ask for a critique one of these days :o

 

[Matador]

Mario's Nair OOS is good as a punisher because of the speed. It lacks range, so you won't be punishing Marth's Fair or anything, but most nairs cant do that either.

Against Marth, yeah you can use ledge invincibility and aerials to rack damage on him. If you just nair in the path of his upB, you'll trade (just don't get caught in the initial hit of his upB).

Dsmash...depends on the match-up. Vs heavies or a character where you NEED a powerful ground game, use it for punishes. Against lighter characters though, it's sometimes good to save it. Either way, it doesn't kill very early too be honest...Usmash is 100x better in that regard.

 

[Blubolouis]

Ok, thanks!

 

[Deathfox30]

Should I ever use D tilt? Like.... ever? Other than to troll my opponent, which I can do 50x easier with Falcon.

 

[Matador]

It can be used as a mix-up to set-up kills. If you land it at KO percentages, the opponent will be knocked off the ground, but just barely above Mario's head.

Instinctively, most people think to airdodge to the ground from that height...if you expect this, you can throw out an Usmash/Fsmash and catch them as they land.

Famous (MD/VA Mario) and Boss actually do this more often than most Marios I've seen, and have success with it sometimes.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Does theorycrafting work against CPUs?

 

[Deathfox30]

Does theorycrafting work against CPUs?

Yes. CPUs are somewhat predictable. If you walk up and jab a level 8 Jigglypuff twice then stutter step F smash behind you it almost always hits her after she rolls. It's pretty funny. There are a lot of good mind games and it's easy to condition a CPU. If you U tilt her when she approached with Fair/Bair/Nair then jump up and try to Uair her she'll usually try to jump or air dodge and you can read either and hit her. Eventually she'll start dairing after U tilts and you can shield and Up B her. It's amazing!

I'm getting better at the level 8 Jigglypuff MU. :] I can get her to game 3 now. I usually take her to Brinstar and try to platform camp her but she ***** me offstage. :[

Jigglypuff just forced and edge slip on me then jab locked me and F smashed... Way too good. I wish it would've been under 3 minutes.

 

[Omari]

@Blubolouis: Honestly, there's no exact (fixed) rating regarding how bad a certain move actually is (troubleshooting requires experience from as many scenarios as possible, general rule for approaching=limiting your opponent's defensive options while keeping yours flexible).

Short hop n-air isn't a good choice for an OoS air whereas short hop u-air (opponents above@mid percents), b-air (walling opponents who benefit more at close range than you do) & d-air (picking on heavy characters, getting them airborne) do better.

Those examples are instant because you can jump OoS, but that doesn't mean you should be creative & give thought to dropping shield (jab (poking can bait shield (counter by performing an attack with multiple hits, grabbing or smashing depending on situation) or landing lag if hit), u-tilt (anti air can be used to bait), f-tilt (quick spacing punish at low percents (you'll you spaced effectively if your controller has a light vibration opposed to a strong one), d-smash (damage builder can be used to put opponent(s) in a bad/worse position=utilizing d-smash is excellent near ledges due to knock-back) & f-smash is debatable (still testing).

Fire ball, n-air & QDA are very good options for edge guarding.

Fire ball: Space fire balls (short hopped or full) so that they bounce before leaving the stage (covers jump, get up attack, get up, free fall custom recovery or/& fast fall custom recovery). Rolls can be baited with attacks that have multiple hits (auto-jab, d-air or d-smash) or attacks that have lingering hit-boxes (n-air, b-air & even QDA although it depends).

N-air: Character dependent (most useful for gimp-able characters like all space characters, Ganondorf, Mario , Diddy (Boss almost did this to ADHD at VC8 but didn't follow up at part 3:17 (he could have n-aired again, fire ball towards to ledge or SJP back to the ledge repeatedly to force a stage spike)), Marth (really depends), etc just to name a few). Generally, you'll want to force your opponent into choosing an option that they don't want to (trading makes n-air very effective).

QDA: Still testing (there's two hit-boxes from QDA with three possible outcomes regarding when they hit) & I'll get back to you.

 

[steep]

Hey guys, I just wanted to bring something up that I haven't seen much discussion about, but that I see many of the best Mario's (Boss, Flameleon, KirinBlaze, and others) doing. They ffairdodge to ground cancel. I experimented with this today and it is an excellent way to be unpredictable and also to appear to be a very fast player. Not only is it a good way to punish, and to surprise attack, but it also is a great mind game and could be an effective way to psych out your opponent into putting themself into a punishable situation. An example of this could be to jump towards your enemy, and then fast fall and air dodge away from them, and landing as they throw out an attack, and then punish!

What do you guys think?

 

[Famous]

It's been implemented in Mario's Metagame for some time now...It's better to do that instead of just doing empty SH's...Be warned though, you can get punished for doing this if you don't mix up your approaches with it...

Works best against characters that outranges you on the ground (Snake, Rob, Etc) Baits them into using tilts mostly.

 

[steep]

Ok I see. I'm still not too familiar with all that has been brought up in Mario's Metagame. I have only been to a few tourneys and there is still a lot that I am just now learning.... Ha Ha I always feel so far behind everyone else! But I am getting better, fast! So hopefully I will be able to impress some people at the tourneys I'm going to this summer.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Pretty standard, the airdodge is mainly so that you could buffer your next move

 

[Coolwhip]

retreating bair -> charged fsmash

Marios need to use that m-game trick more.....alot more. Oh, make sure you add ya fast fall tech into it.

 

[Omari]

Air dodging becomes useful to prevent getting anti aired, grabbed or being vulnerable (while airborne) when in your opponent's attacking range. Think of air dodge as a way to cover yourself. You can use air dodge to get behind your opponent if they're fighting you linear (rolling is another option but use sparingly as it's punishable, very).

Personally, it's much better to stay out of their max attacking range (requires experience, much to grasp firmly) rather than stick with linear baits.

Reason air dodging to the ground (MO) isn't effective as staying out of their max attacking range is due to being flexible (having options). I'm not suggesting you don't use it but more-so knowing when you should use it. I've went through that phase (going to a tournament, learning something new & abusing what you previously learned regardless of the situation).

B-air, f-smash isn't a mind game unless you conditioned your opponent before execution Coolwhip. Example: (if you'd like to use b-air...) b-air (conditions to block)>grab (conditions to spot dodge, yes they could roll but that wouldn't be as useful as-especially near ledges).

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's been implemented in Mario's Metagame for some time now...It's better to do that instead of just doing empty SH's...Be warned though, you can get punished for doing this if you don't mix up your approaches with it...

Works best against characters that outranges you on the ground (Snake, Rob, Etc) Baits them into using tilts mostly.

I disagree. Empty SHs are very very powerful. You just have to know your opponent really well and have really good spacing.

Flameleon is the only Mario user I've seen videos demonstrating that he understands how GOOD empty SHs are. Empty SH -> crossover grab for instance. Not something you do all the time, but something you do once you have conditioned people to respect Mario's spacing. The point of doing an empty SH hinges heavily on threat vs execution.

 

[Matador]

I disagree. Empty SHs are very very powerful. You just have to know your opponent really well and have really good spacing.

Flameleon is the only Mario user I've seen videos demonstrating that he understands how GOOD empty SHs are. Empty SH -> crossover grab for instance. Not something you do all the time, but something you do once you have conditioned people to respect Mario's spacing. The point of doing an empty SH hinges heavily on threat vs execution.

What Steep and Famous are referring to serves the same purpose as empty SHs, but just fastfalling an airdodge instead of fastfalling without airdodging.

You could still empty SH -> fastfall airdodge -> crossover grab. The main difference is buffering.