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You overrate just how good Wario is at these things. He's not a character that never dies. He is of the same weight class as Yoshi, and while they are reasonably heavy, they actually will die before 150% unlike Snake. Landing the kill move on him is tricky, but the difference between playing against Wario is that it's actually STUPIDLY easy for Mario to do all the damage he needs against Wario (this is not including the fact that Wario is very easy for Mario to combo). You can and WILL outdamage Wario in the matchup. Getting him to KO damage will never be a problem, simply landing the kill without getting F-smashed one too many times will be tricky.
We don't need to be like this if you disagree.tl;dr version:
a2z's friend's wario never jumps and is bad.
inb4A2saysyourewrong
Wario's U-air can only be used as a punish. It is NOT hitting you unless you flat out screw up. He just doesn't have the tools to really force you to get hit by it. If you're on a platform, angle shield down and it's never going to do anything to you. If you're above Wario, the worst he can really do is N-air or try to grab you. It's so pointless for Wario to try to hit things above him with his U-air unless it's explicitly a whiff punish. He's far more likely to hit grounded targets with his U-air, and it still requires him to punish a mistake.
Nobody said Wario's aerials were bad, but the point is that Mario anti-airs Wario EXTREMELY well. Superior tilts, B-air, and U-smash guarantee this, meaning that Wario has to rely on airdodge and random F-smash/grab punishes to really get in on Mario. His air game for the most part isn't really helping him much against Mario. The only reason Mario doesn't flat out destroy Wario is frankly because screwing up a land trap and getting F-smashed for it matters a little too much.
He wins against Mario through sheer brute force, since his F-smash is VERY STUPIDLY USEFUL IN THIS MATCHUP. Toolwise though Mario actually dominates Wario, not the other way around. In almost every match I see of other Mario users playing against Wario, it is Mario landing the most hits and dishing out the most damage, despite the fact that Wario has INSANELY superior damage per hit.
That's not an argument. I proved in the stage discussion that Mario is by far a much better character than Wario on Brinstar, one who ACTUALLY can hit you for platform camping because of the frametrap setups he has from D-air. Wario can do zilch except hope you shield Bite if you platform camp him. Let's not forget Mario also has a projectile as well.
Don't take this the wrong way, but what authority do you have to suggest how well Mario does
It can still hit the opponent. There are a good amount of moves that require a mistake or read to hit (eg. Mario's Fsmash).
So why does Mario not beat Wario?
So Wario isn't good on Brinstar. Just like Snake isn't good on Halberd.
I was right though.Again unneeded.
More like that set is not actually the best example of how to play the matchup. Furthermore way to change the topic. M2K should be criticized for his mistakes, and the fact he gets hit by U-air several times is simply a statement that he ****ed up during various moments in that match, and that Reflex simply was doing his job punishing suboptimal decisions. Any time you get hit by Wario's U-air in general though, you should always be analyzing what mistakes you made, because I GUARANTEE that it was completely avoidable in 98% of situations.
Instead of making yourself look ignorant, you should actually read my posts where I stated at least twice that Wario beats Mario slightly on most stages, but loses the advantage on certain CPs.
Snake is stupidly overrated on Halberd and people don't understand how KO percents work. Wario might be better against other characters who fail at platform pressure on Brinstar, but he explicitly loses to Mario on that stage.
I'm not saying that the Uair's were unavoidable. People make mistakes and punishing mistakes is a big part of any fighter game, but you make it sound like Uair is such a bad punisher that it shouldn't be landed. Honestly a lot of times you get hit are off mistakes if you wanna dig into theorycraft but let's not do that now.
This is my point. Some moves you have to either make a read or they have to make a mistake for them to land. This **** happens and you can't just say "this shouldn't happen." I got out of Pound 5 pools 1st round off a really good Fsmash read.
I have read your posts and this is the only thing I read of yours that sounds like Wario has the advantage:
So he has ONE move going for him. So Mario dominates Wario tool-wise, has better damage racking, walls Wario, better air game, better ground game, and better tilts and Wario just just Fsmash going for him. If that's all he has going for him and he still has some advantage then Mario must be a really bad character.
Yes Snake dies at lower percents just like everyone else, but he has a really strong, reliable kill move with broken range and probably still dies at pretty high percents. Mario has nothing to match up to that. Other heavy characters like DK don't have a move as reliable and therefore aren't good on Halberd. Although that's enough to prove your idea wrong, I'm gonna disregard it. What also makes him stupidly good on Halberd is how his recovery is increased dramatically. Edgeguarding Snake is one of the best ways to rack up damage. On Halberd, he now has the option to avoid a lot of damage by recovering through the stage. Talking about Mario specifically now. He has lost a big way, possibly the best way to rack up damage on Snake and he's gonna die from Utilt at 90%. What does Mario possibly have that can match up to that?
U-tilt, F-tilt, and AutoJabs control Wario extremely well, and when Wario is at KO damage (or if Mario is in the lead), he has to really fear U-smash. They have the range and frames to make it extremely difficult for Wario to get in safely. Not having a grab release I guess sucks, but this doesn't change the fact that Mario does wall Wario really well. With a grab release or a stronger B-throw, Mario would win about 6/4, which is simply a statement that Mario's damage dealing is by far more consistent.
Uh, Wario just has F-smash. Granted F-smash is really good. In terms of being able to rack damage and control the pace, Mario clearly does it better, just he has to legitimately outplay Wario for the kill. Winning in fighting games is not always guaranteed by being able to control the pace alone. Controlling the pace is simply one of the more important aspects of matchups. Wario wins however not because he's in control. He wins through essentially random brute force.
Lava is MUCH better for Mario than it is for Wario. Mario can camp with a projectile on Brinstar as much as he wants and cover wherever he wants. The platform layout is also MUCH better for Mario because his platform pressure is one of few that is existent on that stage. Fullhop D-air covers the top platform. SH D-air covers the low platforms. And you can frametrap escape options easily after a blocked D-air. Mario can Cape Stall to avoid the lava easily in most situations. Waft is decent, but a limited resource, and Mario benefits more from the fact that U-smash and B-throw kill earlier. Waft kills early on any stage, even Japes, so getting killed by it on Brinstar isn't a big deal.
U-air is a bad punisher. It has crap range, and its application is generally very telegraphed. You have to make a very blatant mistake to actually get hit by it, and that's the facts. Thus it matters little in matchup discussion.
Again, this is an example of being gimmicky enough that it does not matter in matchup discussion. You are by far more likely to win matches by focusing on more practical things. There's actually non-gimmicky ways to land F-smash, but the standard tactic where most Mario users grab bait into F-smash is so 2009.
You're taking this so ridiculously out of context. You can't make lazy assumptions like that. The point is despite the fact Wario has a lot of moves with extremely bad range, priority, and below average speed, F-smash alone is extremely good and changes what the game is about. It has to be respected, since it does massive damage and can kill. This coupled with Wario's mobility gives him slight adv because you have to legitimately outplay him to get the kill, since a screwup results in getting F-smashed. However the advantage Wario has on Mario is extremely slight, and lost on counterpicks. The facts are Mario does in fact outdamage Wario easily, and on Brinstar, where Wario's F-smash almost never comes into play, it's Mario's advantage easily, especially since Wario cannot effectively aircamp against Mario on Brinstar.
Snake's U-tilt is super overrated as a "reliable" kill move. He ultimately requires you to **** up to get hit by it since his juggle options are ***, and that's the way it is. Recovering through the stage sucks *** because it means you can't walltech to save yourself when C4 recovering. And he's almost never going to actually be in the position where he can avoid your edgeguards by recovering low anyway. You're theorycrafting mad hard. Seriously man, do you even play this matchup? You obviously have zero Halberd experience given the things you're suggesting that make Snake better on Halberd. He only gets slightly more annoying grenade camping. The stage is actually not favorable for him at all in every other way possible.
I'm improving pretty fast now that I have a Wii to keep my execution on point.Are you guys good at this game yet?
17 of 50 at a regional, got 2nd in my pool...ehhh still need work to get up to a top 8 at one.Are you guys good at this game yet?
Trying, and improving.Are you guys good at this game yet?
Uh, I fail to see how I'm underrating Wario's ability to get in. Watch more videos of this matchup. Mario users never have trouble outdamaging Wario DESPITE the fact that Wario does insanely superior damage per hit. Mario controls Wario, not the other way around. Wario is not as hard to wall as you think he is. High mobility is great, but it doesn't change the fact that Wario is going to be losing a lot of head on exchanges. And it's not actually simple for Wario to get in at all on an autocanceled B-air that has only about 10 frames of ending lag, or an angled F-tilt that has only 24 frames of total duration. Especially when Mario still comes out ahead for simply trading hits with Wario's aerials. It's MUCH easier for Mario to effectively wall Wario's air game than you think it is. Wario would need an instant air teleport to be as good at breaking walls as you suggest.
You're simply unobservant. That's not a crime, you're just simply not special. And yes Wario wins against Mario almost solely because of the threat of F-smash. This is not an exaggeration. If Wario's F-smash wasn't as STUPIDLY rewarding as it was, he would be losing hardcore to Mario (and actually several other characters as well) because his ridiculously bad range as well as the fact that trading with his aerials (especially D-air) tends to be out of his favor which means he HAS to airdodge (which granted, is made broken by the threat of F-smash). Mario isn't threatened at all by Wario's air game for the most part, but because Wario has F-smash, making a mistake while land trapping him, especially if its for a kill, is too costly.
I don't care about being special, I care about being myself.
Well, not the first thing I've heard from him I disagreed with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_65Zmm8C1k
To be frank, I am a bit self centered and do believe my ability to make good observations is superior to that of most people. I'm tired of listening to people bull****ing me with outdated information and then they claim that I'm making things up, when in fact I do actually attend tournaments, as well as the fact I spend a lot of time experimenting with things and video critiquing as well.
I don't particularly want to upload or post links of old matches of myself, but I have offline experience that is extremely consistent with my observations. Although in the end, the experience argument is all bull**** used by hypocrites.
