Mario Questions and Answers; Ask here first!

[A2ZOMG]

Omari, you're silly. Never once have I suggested that I'm superior to anyone here. It's only your interpretation of what I'm saying, but I simply expect people to take me word for word.

I'm simply trying to make it clear to Matador that the Falco matchup is in fact really stupidly bad for Mario, and that Falco is in fact really really silly to Mario. I don't like hearing weak and vague claims about how Mario somehow has tools that work in this matchup, when the point is he usually doesn't, while Falco actually does have ridiculous stuff that just works, and none of it requires Falco to even grab, or get baited into grabbing. And most importantly he barely has to read Mario at all to get massive reward, while Mario has to read the **** out of Falco to simply get in.

Even if Mario can somehow pull wins out of nowhere against Falcos who just insist on grabbing when it's obviously a bad option (grab baiting in my opinion is overall a very unreliable strategy), it doesn't change that Falco wins and has a lot more options for winning that Mario really can't cover.

There's two crucial areas where you have to outplay Falco to beat him. Close range, and offstage, and this isn't a question about Mario really having the tools for this. You have to find a way to chip at him with pokes safely without getting hit by his inherently superior moves a lot, and if god forbid he actually lets himself get U-tilted at the magic percents (you could try getting him to spotdodge, and then trying to hit him out of that), then by all means go for it and make sure he takes at least 40%. Extra props if you do like Flameleon and SDI and U-air Falco out of Rapid Jabs and mash Jabs and D-smashes in between his Jab cancels on reaction to interrupt his grab followup (this is the PRIMARY way Falco wants to get grabs. I don't understand why Matador thinks shieldgrab baiting is good against Falco). And you have to be willing to make difficult reads on his recovery, though again, it's something you probably are not going to be able to count on much if even at all if the Falco knows what Mario can do.

 

[Matador]

I mentioned baiting grabs because that's one example of the many ways that you can manipulate the opponent into letting down their wall, which is the only way that you can win match-ups where Mario's options are limited.

If you know that they have multiple solutions to one of our options, make them believe that they need to use one, then punish them for it. Of course it's not as reliable as Falco's options, but that's why we lose the match-up, innit? Grab is just one of many.

Also, I told you before that I'm not getting into theory-fighter with you, which is why my reasoning lacked specificity. I'm not going to explain to you why, when trying to avoid Falco's combos, that nair and airdodge don't lose to the same things. The bair follow-up in the combo you made up would beat nair but you'd escape with airdodge granted you airdodge away from him and cover your landing. Mario is not going to get hit by a nair, two utilts, two bairs, a shine, and an Fsmash anywhere near reliably. He'd be lucky to land the second utilt. There's ample time to escape something like that. There's no need for me to explain something like that when you're intentionally ignoring the many options that we still have.

And Fludd does terrible things to Falco offstage. The only thing that he can even do to stop it is recover low (which is bad). He HAS to come directly at you or he puts himself at risk...and even if he's aiming for the ledge, Fludd screws that up as well. He also can't wrecklessly illusion from the ledge either since a cape will mean a stock. All of this should be taken in account.

Fighting at close range presents issues for Mario since Falco's jabs and spotdodge are so good, but Mario has options. Why do our jab cancels, grabs, SHaerials, tilts, and OOS options magically no longer work AT ALL in close range? Yes, Falco is BETTER at this range than we are, but why are our options now reduced to ftilt pokes and spaced Bairs in your idea of this match-up?

And we can't we combo Falco? He has combo breakers just like the other 70% of the cast. So what? He can't punish you for trying true combo strings. He only gets to punish you when you try to extend them. If you manage a shdair > uair, don't go for another aerial. If you get an utilt, don't keep going with the lock if it doesn't work on Falco. This is elememtary stuff here. If he can break combos, then don't do them. End them early and follow-up from there. If he tries to break out, then he'll miss you and you may be able to punish. If he doesn't, then next time you catch him, you know that you MAY be able to sneak an extra Uair into your strings.

These are things that I know that you know already, A2. What I personally think is going on is a Falco beat you at some point or another, shut down your options, and you figured "WELP, Mario just doesn't have the tools here!" In reality, said person just read you extremely well or something.

To make matters worse, you use Falco, so when you do these things to others, and they work, you figure that, "There must be nothing that THEY can do either!" And apply it to these match-up disussions.

That's why I don't even take arguing with you seriously. You probably still think Ike is the 3rd worst character in the game and that everyone that S@n beats isn't playing him right. Once you get an opinion, swaying it isn't even possible.

 

[2fast]

Sorry A2Z but I don't believe the Falco MU is that bad either. I'll have to see it for myself. Whenever I meet DEHF I'll MM and see what happens.

 

[Famous]

I played dehf, Mario gets pretty mangled in the MU...Then again Larry is the only Falco that rhaped my Mario that badly...

Weegee does way better in that MU for some odd reason

 

[Inferno3044]

So many walls of text.

Once you get an opinion, swaying it isn't even possible.

This x infinity.

 

[HeroMystic]

Let's try to focus on continuing mario's metagame & finding the formula to make mario "Broken-tier" then arguing like abuch of little girls.

What if you're quite feminine?

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Mario boards, putting people on blast since 08

 

[A2ZOMG]

I mentioned baiting grabs because that's one example of the many ways that you can manipulate the opponent into letting down their wall, which is the only way that you can win match-ups where Mario's options are limited.

Why against Falco? Sure against DDD, he barely has any other options. Against Falco that isn't the case. The point is it shouldn't be counted on as an option against Falco specifically. And furthermore I generally think grab baiting is not a good strategy in Brawl for the most part. It's part of the reason I think Wario is not as dominating to Mario or other characters as he was considered previously. Grab baiting sucks, and Wario happens to need it quite a bit to score kills. Mario does much better against Wario when you realize this simple fact.

Also, I told you before that I'm not getting into theory-fighter with you, which is why my reasoning lacked specificity. I'm not going to explain to you why, when trying to avoid Falco's combos, that nair and airdodge don't lose to the same things. The bair follow-up in the combo you made up would beat nair but you'd escape with airdodge granted you airdodge away from him and cover your landing. Mario is not going to get hit by a nair, two utilts, two bairs, a shine, and an Fsmash anywhere near reliably. He'd be lucky to land the second utilt. There's ample time to escape something like that. There's no need for me to explain something like that when you're intentionally ignoring the many options that we still have.

You underestimate Falco's physics, and this is where you're theorycrafting, and where I'm explaining from experience. Falco's physics are actually retardedly good. Not only does your N-air lose to his B-air, airdodging reflexively to B-air also flat out loses to Falco spamming B-air for juggles. Falco CAN follow your DI easily and still hit you with a 2nd B-air even if you airdodge the first. I'm pretty sure most of us have played a Metaknight that frametraps your airdodge with U-air for guaranteed damage. Falco can do the same thing with B-air, given he has the fall speed to chase down the escape options of floaty characters like Mario.

Yes two U-tilts and B-airs was a slight exaggeration, but this doesn't change that Falco's combos are extremely good, damaging and reliable. You're still taking close to around 30% for getting N-aired, U-tilted, and B-aired for a long time, which is not only easier to do than Mario's D-throw U-air combos, it's more damaging. Falco's D-throw -> BDACUS also works basically forever if you DI away from him, and that does about the same damage as D-throw -> U-airx2.

And Fludd does terrible things to Falco offstage. The only thing that he can even do to stop it is recover low (which is bad). He HAS to come directly at you or he puts himself at risk...and even if he's aiming for the ledge, Fludd screws that up as well. He also can't wrecklessly illusion from the ledge either since a cape will mean a stock. All of this should be taken in account.

Falco's recovery doesn't get ***** by FLUDD if he saves midair jump and DIs well. You should be well aware that Mario's recovery is plenty solid if he DIs well, and Falco is no different. This is the part that you ignored. It's true that Falco's ledge game is limited and he suffers from RCO lag, but it's much harder for Mario to punish than you're suggesting because he cannot challenge the SideB on reaction with Cape and FLUDD.

Fighting at close range presents issues for Mario since Falco's jabs and spotdodge are so good, but Mario has options. Why do our jab cancels, grabs, SHaerials, tilts, and OOS options magically no longer work AT ALL in close range? Yes, Falco is BETTER at this range than we are, but why are our options now reduced to ftilt pokes and spaced Bairs in your idea of this match-up?

Jabs are pointlessly not rewarding in this matchup. You only do 9% for full Jab combo on Falco, and you only have at best a 3 frame advantage for Jab canceling on Falco, which means he can either Jab or spotdodge before you can D-smash or follow up with grab (I'm pretty certain Falco can roll before you grab as well). This is not funny to deal with, when your only guaranteed option out of Jab cancel is back into Jab1.

Grabs also suck in this matchup mostly. U-throw at 0% helps. D-throw has to wait until like 10%, and it still sucks if he DIs away. Jumping a lot is not good unless you're poking him with B-air because of his laser camping. I don't know what OOS options you're expecting to get on Falco. If you're lucky, you can try to shieldgrab him in between hits of Jab1 and 2. This is not easy for Mario to do at all. Maybe you can Dash attack after shielding F-smash.

And we can't we combo Falco? He has combo breakers just like the other 70% of the cast. So what? He can't punish you for trying true combo strings. He only gets to punish you when you try to extend them. If you manage a shdair > uair, don't go for another aerial. If you get an utilt, don't keep going with the lock if it doesn't work on Falco. This is elememtary stuff here. If he can break combos, then don't do them. End them early and follow-up from there. If he tries to break out, then he'll miss you and you may be able to punish. If he doesn't, then next time you catch him, you know that you MAY be able to sneak an extra Uair into your strings.

Most of the casts combo breakers actually LOSE to Mario's juggle options if you pick well. You can almost never challenge Falco's D-air directly, and it's low lag enough to be difficult to punish consistently, and it sucks more that he's not floaty, which decreases the time you get to keep him in a bad position.

Yes Mario can try to read Falco's landing. Doesn't change that Mario's reward is overall bad for getting in on Falco due to Falco being by far the most difficult character in the game for Mario to combo effectively.

These are things that I know that you know already, A2. What I personally think is going on is a Falco beat you at some point or another, shut down your options, and you figured "WELP, Mario just doesn't have the tools here!" In reality, said person just read you extremely well or something.

Said person was previously a Mario user. Not only was he willing to camp me for 8 minutes in friendlies, he knew Mario's options. I even beat him once, by just plain outsmarting him with some hilarious shenanigans.

I also beat Mars pretty badly in some wifi friendlies, but you don't have to take that seriously. Even if Mario happens to be better on wifi.

I don't think the last time I played DEHF he beat me nearly as badly as I was able to beat Mars, or Crackle beat me in most matches though. Yeah DEHF is the best Falco...not sure if he really knows Mario.

To make matters worse, you use Falco, so when you do these things to others, and they work, you figure that, "There must be nothing that THEY can do either!" And apply it to these match-up disussions.

And you're going to accuse me of playing theory fighter. Very funny. I really wish I was playing theory fighter, because then I could pretend that Falco isn't as dominating of a character than he actually is and we could go back to the days when Mario went even with Falco because we had stronger and faster kill moves.

That's why I don't even take arguing with you seriously. You probably still think Ike is the 3rd worst character in the game and that everyone that S@n beats isn't playing him right. Once you get an opinion, swaying it isn't even possible.

Ike is probably 4th worst. Better than Zelda, Bowser, and Ganon.

Ike is still bad though, and San's execution is leagues better than that of many player's I've observed. I actually applaud him for his technical skill and ability to pick good options. It's a breath of fresh air compared to all the players who just don't even know all their options for the character they main.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

San's execution is leagues better than that of many player's I've observed. I actually applaud him for his technical skill and ability to pick good options.

Come on, do you know how you sound now?

 

[A2ZOMG]

You don't have to main a good character to be a ridiculously good player with top notch execution. It should go without saying that more players should try to be as good as him in fundamentals.

I think San gets to recover for free too much in most of his matches and that Ike's recovery alone is enough to make him a bad character, but at least San makes it clear that he'll outplay you onstage badly if you don't know what you're doing.

 

[Inferno3044]

So A2, according to your walls of text Mario has absolutely no options against Falco except to basically just die. Jw, how do you really not think you're using theorycraft?

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Ike is probably 4th worst. Better than Zelda, Bowser, and Ganon.

A2, I'm curious, what would your tier list look like?

 

[Omari]

@Coolwhip: Breaking Mario has been one of my main concerns (regarding smash) since I registered here. If you would like to discuss how to break Mario, improve as a smasher (person) then you know how to reach me.

@A2ZOMG: Honestly, you have an unconditional love for smash IMO (no matter how many theory-crafting posts you've created on several different character boards). I believe we could play brawl IRL (probably most of the day), have reasonable discussions (about smash related topics) while we play. There's no doubt in my mind that you aren't an internet troll because you do actually put the time/effort somewhat to backup what you spit (somewhat due to several of your previous post being false).

My point: I can play whatever game you'd like (the "he said, she said game", the "taking shots" game, the "I don't know what you're talking about game", the "politically correct" game, the "theory-fighter" game, the "denying that I'm in denial" game, the "oh no, I didn't mean that exactly when I said that" game or any other game I'm sure you'd love to play all day long without fear of being wrong) but I'm not. There comes a time (& point) where you have to learn from your mistakes & move on. Don't you (at least) realize that I'm not the only smasher (person) who notices the way(s) you present yourself? Believe or not, I'm attempting to help (which several smashers may advise me that I shouldn't even bother) you while you're too stubborn to be aware of your surroundings (not have tunnel vision-only seeing outcomes in the A2way).

Granted, I'm stubborn too in a sense (but I'm improving that weakness by being open & negotiable) whenever socializing (networking) with whomever.

@Mario Boards: My fault for spamming, posting walls of text & possibly wasting time in my our objective/goal to break Mario. IMO, I consider myself a good-Samaritan & will offer help to those in need. If they refuse, I'm afraid there's nothing left I can do but call for help.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So A2, according to your walls of text Mario has absolutely no options against Falco except to basically just die. Jw, how do you really not think you're using theorycraft?

This is not an exaggeration. This is what I've seen from playing Falco users in person, and from picking up the character myself. I have a friend who was a Mario user that also switched to Falco/Snake. A Falco that knows the matchup and is WILLING to camp you for 8 minutes is a far worse nightmare than Marth or G&W. Like you can conventionally outplay Marth and G&W because they're going to make generic spacing mistakes here and there, and because you can actually combo them. Against Falco? Nope. His walling is on an entirely different level to deal with.

Like the fact DEHF didn't 3stock me in tournament was probably because he didn't know the matchup, and because Falco straight up beats Mario in a "fair" fight through having ridiculously better normal moves.

If I was theorycrafting, I would be telling you about how oh, Mario doesn't get ***** badly because we can do this bull**** and because Falco magically sucks at kills, which is what we've always believed since 08. This isn't the case. You have to actually play a Falco that knows Mario really well to realize how demoralizingly stupid this matchup is.

My experiences against Snake, including my stage opinions are not theorycraft either. They are results of observation from playing against the same Falco/Snake player who knows the matchup really well. Random claims from everyone else about how strong vertical kill moves are always gay on Halberd are however theorycraft.

Please don't be a hypocrite. You're just as guilty if not more for theorycrafting.

 

[Inferno3044]

first of all I admitted I was wrong about snake and you still bring it up. At least I know when to admit when I am wrong like I did about hardcore camping snake. You make ridiculous claims like Mario just needs a lead on olimar and can then successfully run away for the rest of the match and he can easily get and keep a lead on olimar, that snake can't reliably land utilt, fireballs completely halt yoshi or that falco barely gets hit by Mario let alone take a stock. You have played 2 marios that might be bad. If you consistently time out rich brown and 3 stock vato's mario with falco I will believe you. I fully proved you wrong about Yoshi and you wouldn't even admit that you were wrong.

Also please don't accuse me of theorycrafting to anywhere near your extent. I don't post theory crafting posts on the Mario boards and you post them on multiple. Sometimes you say smart things I agree with (eg. Ike is bad. I don't think he is as bad as you think but I think he is bad) but sometimes I think you are wrong (eg. Mario should cp snake to halberd).

Tl:dr- a2 theorycrafts way more than I do and does not change his opinion.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I change my opinions. I change them according to new relevant information that comes up like everyone else does. Announcing to the world when you change opinions is mostly pointless, and Pierce seems to get that. You saying that you change your opinions more than me does not make you any more credible.

And don't pretend you don't theorycraft at least as much as I do. Everyone who has an opinion theorycrafts. The only difference between you and me here is that you're far less confident and researched on your opinions. I base quite a lot of my matchup opinions on past experiences though, not unlike anyone else who contributes opinions in matchup discussion. And everyone theorycrafts in matchup discussions at some point. Everyone. It's just necessary to explain options in depth.

The way you suggest you play against Olimar also tells me personally that you have suboptimal spacing strategies (not uncommon anyway. I dislike the spacing strategies of the vast majority of Mario users I watch videos of, including decent Mario users like Vato. Kirin and Flame are exceptions.). And lol no, Snake does in fact have trouble landing U-tilt if you're better at spacing than him, which is the vast majority of the cast playing on point (but people do often suck at spacing, so I dunno), and this is the REASON why Halberd is not a bad CP against Snake for Mario, because he's fundamentally never going to land U-tilt unless you bite it. Dunno about Fireballs and Yoshi, except for the fact those, better aerials and Smashes, and AutoJabbing are the reason why Mario beats Yoshi solidly.

 

[Inferno3044]

I will admit I theorycraft and I never said I didn't. I will also admit im not as researched or confident. Part of who I am; I am tentative unless I know its fact like the sky is blue. My spacing is meh if I don't really focus on it. The reason people have trouble with your theorycrafting imo is that you are very extreme on things that don't always work. For example that combo you said does not reliably connect but he can connect hits fairly well by brawl standards. Also with spacing with fsmash is also real extreme. Yes its good and outranges our entire moveset but its not so good that it completely eliminates Mario's options

With snake you said if Mario has better spacing. what if snake has equal/better spacing?

 

[Matador]

Guys, let's just drop it. There's nothing to gain from ganging up on A2...enough people do that already on this site.

The fact of the matter is that he's correct on many counts whether or not we (I) choose to admit it, and has definitely gotten me thinking harder about the match-up.

I still believe, from personal experience, that we have options...but I now believe even more firmly that I need to prove this in tournament.

 

[Famous]

Mario beats Yoshi slightly...Yoshi has no answer to our camping. Shouldnt have to fight a Yoshi close up unless hes forcing you.

 

[HeroMystic]

I still believe, from personal experience, that we have options...but I now believe even more firmly that I need to prove this in tournament.

Honestly a lot of our match-ups are like this.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

A2 just called some of our top Marios decent. I guess anyone who isn't a "decent" Mario main must either be Boss, or horrible at this game.

 

[Famous]

<---Is horrible at this game

 

[Omari]

@Famous: Bull****, won't let you lie like that bruh...

 

[Inferno3044]

<---- Is bad at this game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

For example that combo you said does not reliably connect but he can connect hits fairly well by brawl standards.

The only part of the combo that isn't guaranteed when Falco puts you above him is 2 B-airs. He's GOING to hit you with at least one if he simply goes for it because his physics allow him to chase the airdodges of floaty characters easily.

Also with spacing with fsmash is also real extreme. Yes its good and outranges our entire moveset but its not so good that it completely eliminates Mario's options

If Falco's F-smash were as unsafe on block as say...Marth's, then yeah. We'd have quite a few more options against it, except it's safer than Mario's F-smash, which is actually rather hard for Mario to punish in the ditto matchup. It's hard enough for Mario to punish Falco's F-smash that Falco actually can afford to almost spam charged F-smash in this matchup, provided he doesn't space it too badly. It's especially hard to deal with when Falco has you cornered, or on the edge.

With snake you said if Mario has better spacing. what if snake has equal/better spacing?

In high level play, the vast majority of the cast has better spacing than Snake. This isn't an exception to Mario. He just has better mobility than Snake does, and Snake has blindspots that are not hard for most characters to take advantage of.

Snake's entire goal is just to wait for you to make mistakes that he can punish. Granted, there's a half million different possible ways to screw up in any given match. But he still basically needs you to actually commit to something somewhat unsafe first before he can do anything.

SF4 Sagat is a character blessed with some amazing normal attacks that are fast, safe on block, and have high range. But at the same time, he's a character who gets dominated in footsies, or midrange spacing wars. How is this? It's because his mobility is trash and he has next to no way of surprising his opponent into making a spacing mistake. Once people get past the range where Sagat can safely throw out Tiger Shots, Sagat is usually in a disadvantageous position where to keep people out requires Sagat to be really careful about throwing out moves that his opponent can whiff punish. In vanilla SF4, this makes his matchups with Ryu and Akuma, characters who aren't quite as damaging or specialized at zoning as he is, neutral at worst for them because they are significantly better in midrange (as well as slightly in closerange) than he is.

Outspacing Snake for many characters really isn't any different. He can't do anything that will surprise you most of the time due to his bad mobility, and because of this, most characters have a way of approaching Snake safely.

A2 just called some of our top Marios decent. I guess anyone who isn't a "decent" Mario main must either be Boss, or horrible at this game.

Vato and Boss are decent. The best is Kirin (I'd add Flameleon, but he lives in Mexico. His playstyle is the one to emulate). I don't know 2fast enough but I think he could surpass Vato and Boss from what I've seen.

That's pretty much who matters at the moment.

 

[fromundaman]

Not trying to down-play anyone, but if you compare Mario players with other 'top' low/mid-tier character players (TKD, Reflex, A couple of the Sonics, San, Shaky, etc.), then yeah, our top Mario players aren't quite on the same level.

That being said, calling them decent may be a stretch, but that may also be because of what I personally consider decent. I consider most smashers to be decent, then less of them to range throughout 'high level' play, and only the best of the best to be 'top' level players. I would consider the best Marios to be scattered throughout the 'high' level category.



I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I am not reading all these walls of text right now.

 

[Inferno3044]

The only part of the combo that isn't guaranteed when Falco puts you above him is 2 B-airs. He's GOING to hit you with at least one if he simply goes for it because his physics allow him to chase the airdodges of floaty characters easily.

I don't think 2 utilts connect with Falco, but I may be wrong. Just putting possibilities on the table, why can't Mario trade hits with any of these moves?

If Falco's F-smash were as unsafe on block as say...Marth's, then yeah. We'd have quite a few more options against it, except it's safer than Mario's F-smash, which is actually rather hard for Mario to punish in the ditto matchup. It's hard enough for Mario to punish Falco's F-smash that Falco actually can afford to almost spam charged F-smash in this matchup, provided he doesn't space it too badly. It's especially hard to deal with when Falco has you cornered, or on the edge.

Yeah it's safe but you definitely can't spam charging Fsmash. I can just shield it or just move out of range. When you are cornered or on the ledge it's pretty dumb but you can just wait for him to release it and hit him with UpB you to get back on. It's definitely a good move but not as safe as MK's Fsmash.

In high level play, the vast majority of the cast has better spacing than Snake. This isn't an exception to Mario. He just has better mobility than Snake does, and Snake has blindspots that are not hard for most characters to take advantage of.

Snake's entire goal is just to wait for you to make mistakes that he can punish. Granted, there's a half million different possible ways to screw up in any given match. But he still basically needs you to actually commit to something somewhat unsafe first before he can do anything.

SF4 Sagat is a character blessed with some amazing normal attacks that are fast, safe on block, and have high range. But at the same time, he's a character who gets dominated in footsies, or midrange spacing wars. How is this? It's because his mobility is trash and he has next to no way of surprising his opponent into making a spacing mistake. Once people get past the range where Sagat can safely throw out Tiger Shots, Sagat is usually in a disadvantageous position where to keep people out requires Sagat to be really careful about throwing out moves that his opponent can whiff punish. In vanilla SF4, this makes his matchups with Ryu and Akuma, characters who aren't quite as damaging or specialized at zoning as he is, neutral at worst for them because they are significantly better in midrange (as well as slightly in closerange) than he is.

Outspacing Snake for many characters really isn't any different. He can't do anything that will surprise you most of the time due to his bad mobility, and because of this, most characters have a way of approaching Snake safely.

This doesn't answer my question.

Vato and Boss are decent. The best is Kirin (I'd add Flameleon, but he lives in Mexico. His playstyle is the one to emulate). I don't know 2fast enough but I think he could surpass Vato and Boss from what I've seen.

That's pretty much who matters at the moment.

I used to be on the path to decency but then college came and the only brawl I played were FFAs on an LCD tv using random characters. And even that was last semester.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think 2 utilts connect with Falco, but I may be wrong. Just putting possibilities on the table, why can't Mario trade hits with any of these moves?

At 0, I'm pretty sure you can't escape 2 U-tilts. Furthermore, Falco is far more disjointed than Mario. Just his hitboxes are much bigger, and he has a lot of moves that render his limbs (especially his legs) completely invincible. I can CLEANLY beat Squirtle's Up-B with Falco's B-air every time without trading, and Squirtle's Up-B I'm pretty certain does reach above his head. Not sure if Falco's U-tilt has invincible limbs, but the hitbox is so huge it barely matters.

It's worse than getting outdisjointed by Marth. Yeah Marth has longer disjointed range than you do, but he has to actually have a decent sense of timing since most of his hitboxes are short duration and have existent cooldown in between hits. Falco still beats you cleanly in most exchanges, and he hardly has to try spacing his B-air particularly well when you just lose to it for sticking a leg at it while it's out.

Yeah it's safe but you definitely can't spam charging Fsmash. I can just shield it or just move out of range. When you are cornered or on the ledge it's pretty dumb but you can just wait for him to release it and hit him with UpB you to get back on. It's definitely a good move but not as safe as MK's Fsmash.

Falco's F-smash is NOT Marth's F-smash. You can wait out Marth's F-smash feasibly if he thinks it's a good idea to edgetrap with it (it's not). Falco's F-smash leaves him at a frame advantage if you try to wait it out on the edge and avoid it before he knocks you off the edge. You pretty much cannot ledgehop aerial or ledge attack his F-smash edgetrap on reaction (and challenging it directly with an aerial is a no. It hits quite a bit above him), and if he spaces it correctly, he's not going to be in range to be Up-Bed either. It's far stupider than MK's F-smash to deal with by virtue of the sheer range, though MK beats Mario worse in other ways.

This doesn't answer my question.

You were asking if Snake has better/equal spacing to Mario. The point is as a character, he just doesn't, and Mario is able to win against Snake because he technically can play a better spacing game. If as a player he has better spacing than you, you just get bodied no matter which character you are because Snake crushes suboptimal playstyles. We aren't talking about suboptimal playstyles though. We are talking high level play and between players who both know the matchup.

 

[vato_break]

Snake ***** mario pretty hard if the snake plays the MU correctly which most snakes don't. I'm not a snake main but, i'm willing to bet i'm not likely to lose to a mario while im snake, i think i beat inferno with my snake? i don't recall(though he beat me in mario ditto, the fack). I think snake is one of marios harder matchups and from what i've seen marios success in this matchup is dependant on the snakes ignorance to marios options and gimmicks.

 

[A2ZOMG]

My friend Crackle who mains Snake knows the matchup really well. He beats me a fair bit more than I beat him in this particular matchup, but it's usually extremely close and I always feel that whenever he beats me I could have played better or made smarter decisions. He usually needs me to just flat out not see an explosive to get the advantage against me.

I'll play your Snake Vato if we ever meet again. I'm not even expecting to beat you the majority of the time just because the matchup requires a ******** amount of concentration to play correctly, but if I'm playing on point, I know I can win this matchup as long as the stage is not Battlefield or Lylat.

 

[Payne]

When I am in mid-air and my opponent is below me,mr dair seems use less what do I do?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Cape Stall or B reverse fireball to trick them into whiffing an attack.

 

[exdia_16]

i hav a weird play strat to mess with people in game one first stock i gav boss an example. wat is the first thing your opponent does when you jab them. discuss i post the rest later i would like to see some results or post from fellow plumbers(xD) once i hav seen enough i will post my strat i think this will really help your mind and hurt theres.

 

[KMFBrawler]

They will move away or try to attack you

 

[exdia_16]

okay atleast 4 more different answers will be fine

 

[2fast]

They'll naturally try 2 shield. The some ones may see your jab cancel coming and just keep jamming their jab button though.

 

[Matador]

They'll naturally try 2 shield. The some ones may see your jab cancel coming and just keep jamming their jab button though.

This.

As Mario, if Mario's jabbing me, I'd jab back cuz if they're going for a jab cancel, I have a chance to hit them back. If I'm higher in percent, I might shield to try and roll away or something.

That's only if Mario's jabbing me tho. If it's like Ike or somebody, he's eating every hit of my upB...

 

[exdia_16]

okay so has anyone ever tried jab>jump>cape,or jab>cape? and please positive feed back.

 

[Matador]

Yeah, it used to be like...my go-to mix-up.

It's not bad as long as you don't do it ALL the time. The surprise factor is what makes it awesome.

You also get wrecked for doing the same thing all the time if they shield the cape. Like, if you cape, then airdodge away or cape, then drop a nair.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No thanks to you Matador, you made me realize a long time ago that Jab canceling into F-smash is funny and awesome. Works especially great against people who try to Jab back during Jab cancels, because then they whiff, and then you punish them.