Mario Questions and Answers; Ask here first!

[A2ZOMG]

Just never take Metaknight to Brinstar because he just benefits from low ceilings, lava, and transparent floors more than Mario does, and yes, Brinstar is Mario's best stage because he benefits from that stage more than anyone else not named Metaknight.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth isn't one of Mario's worst match-ups... imo it's MK / Snake / Falco. DDD is pending.

 

[Matador]

DDD is definitely one of his worst. Scrubby ones won't give you trouble, but he just has options that cover SO many of our own.

If the DDD knows how, he can pretty much negate crossing him up with dair while he's in his shield since his dash grab covers so much range. And DDD is one of the best characters at edgeguarding Mario...about as good as MK.

His bair goes through fireballs, all of our aerials, and will gimp us on a trade with our upB. His fallspeed and multiple jumps also make it easy to hover above the ledge until we exhaust our recovery stalls and whatnot, and still snatch the ledge before our upB can. Literally the only way to deal with DDD offstage is to time upB invincibility to come out at the same time as his bair so that you'll beat it. Fludd can sometimes work too.

I'd say Marth is a little worse than Falco and Snake too. All 3 are bad, but Marth is AT LEAST as bad as those two.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Falco is def. worse than Marth. He completely shuts down all of Mario's approaches with minimal commitment. Marth can't do that without leaving the ground.

Marth ... really isn't that bad.

 

[Matador]

Falco is def. worse than Marth. He completely shuts down all of Mario's approaches with minimal commitment. Marth can't do that without leaving the ground.

Marth ... really isn't that bad.

Yeah, both are pretty hellish match-ups. I honestly haven't ever had a real problem approaching Falco.

Can't use fireballs? Mmk, just don't.

Lasers in the way? Cape/duck/airdodge/pshield are pretty good tools for getting around that without setting Falco up for a combo.

Falco's CQC getting u down? ...........

No answer for that one. That jab, CG, and spotdodge are ****in stupid. That's where most of the challange is for me vs Falco. We've got him offstage, he's okay to combo (remember that his aerials aren't safe on block. Wait for him to try them as combo breakers), and cape = a stock on a predicted illusion.

Killing is tricky, but his main KO set-up is his most reliable by far. Don't get laser-> Usmashed and he won't be killing u very easily.

Just this past weekend, Kirin and Shugo went at it. He did amazing. Maybe even could've taken the set. You'd think it were an even-ish match-up the way the set went.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Jab, laser, ftilt combo is stupid and shuts our grounded approaches down. Dair never works because he can nair it OoS and combo it into utilt. I just have no idea how you approach this guy. If you retreating bair him he can just side-B in your cool-down to reset the situation.

I'd like to see Shugo vs Kirin though :C
But being close to winning doesn't matter ... if you lose 8/10 games you're still getting *****, no matter how close you actually are.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marth isn't one of Mario's worst match-ups... imo it's MK / Snake / Falco. DDD is pending.

Marth is easily harder than Snake.

Snake at top level play I feel is 55/45 Snake's favor. 6/4 Snake's favor on Battlefield and Lylat specifically. He probably still wins slightly on Brinstar, although it's extremely close on that stage. Mario has the tools to get in and set up kills reliably as long as he's willing to wait a lot. The disadvantage in this matchup is getting punished ridiculously hard for screwing up.

Marth I feel wins at least 6/4 no matter the stage you take him to.

Falco I agree is worse than Marth on most stages not named Brinstar. Though you actually beat Falco slightly on Brinstar. Just a statement as to how terrible the stage is for Falco, and good for Mario. Outside of that the matchup is usually 65/35 Falco. Probably 8/2 Falco on Japes if he ever takes you there.

Approaching Falco requires you powershield lasers and basically legitimately outplay him. Legitimately outplaying Falco in close range is possible. Definitely not easy though and frustrating as hell on top of being mostly a onesided affair in Falco's favor, though you CAN usually D-smash him in between hits of his Jab cancel combos. SDIing his Rapid Jabs is also important.

Also guys, comboing Falco is hugely overrated. He's one of the hardest characters in the game for Mario to combo. This is partly why Mario does badly against him.

 

[Matador]

I want to see vids of how you guys fight these characters.

There's no way my opinion is so different from yours on how the Falco match-up is for Mario.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If Orion still plays Falco I could ask to play some friendles with him in like 2-3 weeks.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I want to see vids of how you guys fight these characters.

There's no way my opinion is so different from yours on how the Falco match-up is for Mario.

I'll see if I can get recorded friendlies with Crackle. His Falco was the first reason I suspected this matchup was awful for Mario. Actually picking up Falco and learning how to use him is the second reason I'm convinced it's a 65/35.

 

[Inferno3044]

Mario vs. Falco is 6:4 falco. It's not that hard. Yes his ground game is really good and much better than Mario's but Mario can rack some massive damage on falco, body him, and edgeguard him.

Marth is definitely harder. He has a ground and air game that is a lot better than ours. Its dumb. Mario's 3 worst MUs are Mk, Marth, and dedede

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario vs. Falco is 6:4 falco. It's not that hard. Yes his ground game is really good and much better than Mario's but Mario can rack some massive damage on falco, body him, and edgeguard him.

Marth is definitely harder. He has a ground and air game that is a lot better than ours. Its dumb. Mario's 3 worst MUs are Mk, Marth, and dedede

Mario can't combo Falco unless the Falco fails at the matchup tremendously. If the Falco knows ANYTHING about Mario, he will not get comboed by Mario period. Falco is one of the hardest characters in the game for Mario to combo.

He does not get U-tilt chained at 0%. D-throw -> U-airx2 does not work on him at 0% either. His D-air is also one of the best moves in the game at breaking Mario's combos. Furthermore he is not vulnerable to any Jab cancel combos except for perhaps Jab canceling back into Jab.

Falco also is much harder to edgeguard than you're suggesting, given that his SideB cannot be gimped on reaction. And his B-air is a better move than anything Marth has for walling Mario.

 

[Inferno3044]

I said Mario can edgeguard him. I didn't state it was easy. 6:4 is a pretty solid advantage imo, but it's definitely winnable on Mario's half. Falco's SideB is fairly telegraphed depending on what stage you are on but you're right that you're not always gonna get the gimp and that it'll require some sort of read.

Speaking of edgeguarding, I gotta do it more. My pimp hand has lost so much power because I haven't practiced edgeguarding in so long. I also gotta get back to my high point and ascend. I didn't do bad here, but overall I was definitely better at Apex.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How does Mario combo Falco? You'd either have to get him above you in the air or a grab at the right % in the right position and neither is going to happen against a good Falco.

Marth has to approach from the air to remain fully safe, that alone puts him in an inherently worse position than Falco.

 

[HeroMystic]

Hero once explained this to me... It was something like:


Mario, as a balanced character, has no "bad" stages. Even on the majority of bad stages, he's quite alright. Though, without a doubt, Battlefield is Mario's best stage. You should think about the stages you prefer the best and the stages your opponent is worst on.

This is correct except for the bolded apparently. BF used to be Mario's best stage until some development happened, which I was absent for.

EDIT: For the topic above, I'm biased because M@V is a beast with Falco, and I played like 50 other Marths, but I'm gonna have to go with Falco being harder than Marth. Both are hard match-ups but Falco has way more options than Marth.

 

[Inferno3044]

How does Mario combo Falco? You'd either have to get him above you in the air or a grab at the right % in the right position and neither is going to happen against a good Falco.

Marth has to approach from the air to remain fully safe, that alone puts him in an inherently worse position than Falco.

I said rack damage and body. I didn't say combo. 2 different things.

Who cares if Marth has to approach from the air? That really doesn't put Marth in a worse position. Especially since Mario has little to nothing against a well spaced fair. We also are bad on the ground against Marth because of Dancing Blade.

This is correct except for the bolded apparently. BF used to be Mario's best stage until some development happened, which I was absent for.

The development was a lot of characters are bad on Brinstar. Mario is not.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I said rack damage and body. I didn't say combo. 2 different things.

So...where is Mario getting massive damage on Falco? If he's getting massive damage, either he has significantly superior spacing (which he actually does against Snake), or he is comboing Falco.

Who cares if Marth has to approach from the air? That really doesn't put Marth in a worse position. Especially since Mario has little to nothing against a well spaced fair. We also are bad on the ground against Marth because of Dancing Blade.

You could y'know, powershield and then try to punish. Granted you can't count on it consistently, but it ***** Marth and done right is not particularly unsafe to do. B-airs are also good against Marth's spacing, though trading isn't fun in that matchup.

On a hard read, you could also try F-smash. FLUDD can be used to create space fairly safely at midrange, which is something you want a lot of against Marth.

Dancing Blade is a stupidly good punisher for the most part, but shielding is really good against it. It's significantly less safe than Falco's Jabs. It's more like a 4 hit version of Snake's F-tilt that does a bit less damage and less shield push (I D-smash out of shield against Snake's F-tilt here and there. Just saying).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

"Racking massive damage" as you put it heavily implies combos because that's all Mario has to do so. Everything else is occasional chip damage.

If Marth is in the air it's easier to disturb his spacing by walking than for him to space correctly. It's almost impossible for Falco to "misspace" a jab1 or a laser -> ftilt, that's simply not happening. Walking powershield a marth fair or duck -> utilt below a poorly spaced one is much more likely. Dancing Blade is a good move but it's unsafe on block ... it's nowhere near as much of a pain as Falco's jab is.

 

[Inferno3044]

So...where is Mario getting massive damage on Falco? If he's getting massive damage, either he has significantly superior spacing (which he actually does against Snake), or he is comboing Falco.

Well when I pull it off it's normally walling them with well spaced bairs. It's not easy but it's possible.

You could y'know, powershield and then try to punish. Granted you can't count on it consistently, but it ***** Marth and done right is not particularly unsafe to do. B-airs are also good against Marth's spacing, though trading isn't fun in that matchup.

What would you punish with? MAYBE UpB will hit. Honestly, well spaced hits on Mario's shield is free

On a hard read, you could also try F-smash. FLUDD can be used to create space fairly safely at midrange, which is something you want a lot of against Marth.

Dancing Blade is a stupidly good punisher for the most part, but shielding is really good against it. It's significantly less safe than Falco's Jabs. It's more like a 4 hit version of Snake's F-tilt that does a bit less damage and less shield push (I D-smash out of shield against Snake's F-tilt here and there. Just saying).

Fsmash is really unreliable and you have to be a combination of lucky and ballsy for it to work.

OK. I will say that ground game wise, Falco's jab is better but that doesn't negate the fact of how good DB is. Also just a tip about DB, it's really easy to punish after the 3rd hit.

"Racking massive damage" as you put it heavily implies combos because that's all Mario has to do so. Everything else is occasional chip damage.

If Marth is in the air it's easier to disturb his spacing by walking than for him to space correctly. It's almost impossible for Falco to "misspace" a jab1 or a laser -> ftilt, that's simply not happening. Walking powershield a marth fair or duck -> utilt below a poorly spaced one is much more likely. Dancing Blade is a good move but it's unsafe on block ... it's nowhere near as much of a pain as Falco's jab is.

If you wanna make it simple, Mario can simply walk to either make the jab whiff or run, shield, and punish his jab.

I get this feeling you guys think that I think Falco is easy. He isn't, but it's not omg hard. I'm just saying Marth is harder.

 

[Matador]

Mario can't combo Falco unless the Falco fails at the matchup tremendously. If the Falco knows ANYTHING about Mario, he will not get comboed by Mario period. Falco is one of the hardest characters in the game for Mario to combo.

He does not get U-tilt chained at 0%. D-throw -> U-airx2 does not work on him at 0% either. His D-air is also one of the best moves in the game at breaking Mario's combos. Furthermore he is not vulnerable to any Jab cancel combos except for perhaps Jab canceling back into Jab.

Falco also is much harder to edgeguard than you're suggesting, given that his SideB cannot be gimped on reaction. And his B-air is a better move than anything Marth has for walling Mario.

I agree in regards to jab cancels, but if he's breaking out of your combos with dair, end them early and shield. It'll force him to guess whether he should use dair/nair, airdodge, or jump when he's above you.

Some characters can break Mario's combos. So just don't do them predictably. Utilt, then shield. Dthrow, then pivot regrab. Dair, then DON'T follow up for a change. You'd be surprised how effective waiting is.

And does Fludd not work on illusion anymore? Why does everyone keep ignoring this?

Edit: Also, do what Vato suggested awhile back. Try spacing cape vs Falco. It beats all of his attacks (except shine), and could mean a stock if he starts abusing illusion near you.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well when I pull it off it's normally walling them with well spaced bairs. It's not easy but it's possible.

Lol at saying Mario walls Falco. Falco walls Mario. Not the other way around. If he catches on to your air spacing, it LOSES to his tilts and B-air. Not to mention lasers anyway.

What would you punish with? MAYBE UpB will hit. Honestly, well spaced hits on Mario's shield is free

And as Gheb suggested, air spacing is not always "well". It entirely depends on what Marth does, and which way I'm facing. If he's completely safely spaced, then it's an opportunity to use a fireball. U-air, F-tilt, and B-air out of shield are all options that work in different situations, even on normal block. If you happen to powershield, you have plenty of time to move a bit before trying to counterattack.

Fsmash is really unreliable and you have to be a combination of lucky and ballsy for it to work.

Well it isn't any less reliable than trying to B-air your way past Falco's broken walls which generally do MORE DAMAGE than Marth's assuming Marth is not consistent about tipper range.

OK. I will say that ground game wise, Falco's jab is better but that doesn't negate the fact of how good DB is. Also just a tip about DB, it's really easy to punish after the 3rd hit.

Yes, everyone knows how to punish DB.

If you wanna make it simple, Mario can simply walk to either make the jab whiff or run, shield, and punish his jab.

You don't get to walk freely in the Falco matchup if he has any idea how laser camping works. Furthermore Mario's low grab range makes punishing Falco's Jabs extra difficult. Considering also that Falco's rapid Jabs are both safe on block and have MASSIVE range, how are you punishing this character's Jabs?

Also getting grabbed by Falco generally sucks more than getting grabbed by Marth. He can follow up his throws with DACUS if you DI away. Aerials if you DI towards him, and Falco's moves are better for baiting airdodges than Marth's.

Also, as stupid as it sounds, Falco's F-smash walls the hell out of Mario. It is one of few moves that actually does in fact outrange your reverse F-smash. It's not nearly as laggy as Marth's F-smash either, and it's a much bigger pain in the butt to get around when getting up from the ledge than anything Marth has.

I get this feeling you guys think that I think Falco is easy. He isn't, but it's not omg hard. I'm just saying Marth is harder.

Falco is only easier than Marth on Brinstar. Harder on every other stage except maybe Lylat.

 

[HeroMystic]

Does Marths still not use D-tilt vs Mario? It's far better than DB at stopping Mario's ground game, though I think Cape Jump beats it.

 

[SKidd]

This page = TL;DR (Except Hero <3)

Snake > Marth > Falco, IMO

Snake... Just shuts me down.

Marth is hard to penetrate, he just never lets down.

Falco isn't as bad because lasers aren't as bad for us I think(crouch, cape, platforms(don't go to fd lol)), and we can actually build up quite a bit of damage with a good hit and a couple of reads up close.

 

[Inferno3044]

Don't wanna point out every little false statement in A2's point. I'm just going to say Larry says it's 6:4 Falco (he has a post somewhere of his opinion of all of Falco's MU's). Boss also claims on the highest level, Mario can beat every character except for 4. Marth is one of those 4 and Falco isn't. Pierce also says Marth:Mario is 8:2 Marth's favor. Just pointing out opinions of very good and smart players.

@Hero - Dtilt is really good against Mario.

 

[HeroMystic]

Pierce also gives absurd ratios to provoke a response.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pierce also said that Marth is the 2nd or 3rd best character. The match-up vs Marth is nowhere near 8/2.

MK / DDD > Snake / Falco >>> Marth

 

[Matador]

I agree with A2 that Snake isn't that bad at high level play. He has far too much that can be abused.

Marth isn't 80:20...that's absurd.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Don't wanna point out every little false statement in A2's point. I'm just going to say Larry says it's 6:4 Falco (he has a post somewhere of his opinion of all of Falco's MU's). Boss also claims on the highest level, Mario can beat every character except for 4. Marth is one of those 4 and Falco isn't. Pierce also says Marth:Mario is 8:2 Marth's favor. Just pointing out opinions of very good and smart players.

@Hero - Dtilt is really good against Mario.

I can see why Pierce thinks Mario is 8/2 Marth's favor. He is extremely knowledgeable with both characters, and he's good enough that he would probably never drop a set against the vast majority of Mario users, even good ones. Given that especially Mario can't really counterpick Marth. Hell, he's spot on about how Marth can capitalize on Mario's weaknesses pretty devastatingly.

But he's far more liberal with matchup ratios than I am or most people (though it does help make his point clear). And I definitely disagree with him that vs Marth is that bad for Mario. Falco is safer against Mario and gets at least as much reward as Marth does for shutting Mario down, while it's very difficult for Mario to get substantial reward against Falco.

At least against Marth, you can juggle him with something that resembles consistency due to how floaty he is, and Jabbing him is far more useful. Also Marth is easier to edgeguard than Falco. Not necessarily easy to edgeguard, but he's definitely easier to edgeguard than a Falco that knows the matchup against Mario.

 

[Inferno3044]

Pierce also said that Marth is the 2nd or 3rd best character. The match-up vs Marth is nowhere near 8/2.

MK / DDD > Snake / Falco >>> Marth

Trust me, he doesn't think that now. Also my point wasn't the number but more on the point that it's bad. Larry's opinion on the ratio is below.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=284308

Also I really gotta say your graph is wrong. First, no way D3 is harder than MK unless the infinite is legal. Second there is no way at all Snake is harder or even as hard as Marth.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, he lost to Vato once or something? Mario's a pretty uncommon matchup, and granted, I'm pretty familiar with Falco users who don't really know Mario and just kinda get hit more than they should.

My friend Crackle once mained Mario, and then switched to Falco. Playing his Falco on the other hand...one that was willing to never approach and camp for 8 minutes straight in friendlies...was a complete chore and didn't feel very legitimately winnable.

 

[2fast]

Personally, I thought D3 was harder then MK. Then again, I think a pro aggro Peach is harder than MK atm. I feel D3's chaingrab and his high %'s before he dies is to much. If it comes to changing characters for anyone, it'd have to be D3 for me.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah, DDD is easily as hard as MK ... with the infinite allowed it's def. out worst match-up.

 

[Matador]

Never found a D3 outside of Coney difficult. They don't catch on to the gimmicks I use to avoid grabs in time.

 

[Inferno3044]

Personally, I thought D3 was harder then MK. Then again, I think a pro aggro Peach is harder than MK atm. I feel D3's chaingrab and his high %'s before he dies is to much. If it comes to changing characters for anyone, it'd have to be D3 for me.

What Peach did you play? You might've just played a really good Peach/really bad MK.

 

[2fast]

What Peach did you play? You might've just played a really good Peach/really bad MK.

I battled Llod's Peach, and then I battled Logic and Smurfs MK's.

 

[Inferno3044]

Logic's MK is a secondary. Smurf's isn't bad but I'm pretty sure he isn't that good against Mario. Play a top level MK like Anti or Nairo then tell me Peach is harder.

 

[Juushichi]

I played Nicole's and boy did I get handled. Same thing by Rowan's.

D3 isn't as bad for me as Falco, Marth and MK. Part of it is a pocket Sheik. The other part is a Brinstar/Halberd CP and platform camping him on BF or PS1 (which is where game one usually goes).

IMO; MK > Marth/Snake > Falco > D3.

I ****ing swear, I never realized how annoying it is to outplay someone and still lose until I vs'd Snakes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I battled Llod's Peach, and then I battled Logic and Smurfs MK's.

Llod if I recall is like one of the best Peach players ever. And then what Inferno said about the other two.

You probably just felt Peach was harder because Llod is super amazing.

 

[Inferno3044]

If people are gonna make graphs then I guess I'll give my 2 opinions:

MK > Marth/D3 (Marth is a tad harder imo due to lack of good CPs) > Falco/G&W

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd rank it something like....

MK >>> Falco > Marth/G&W/DDD overall

on Brinstar, MK >>>>> Marth > G&W > DDD >> Mario ditto > Falco

on FD, DDD > MK > Falco >>> Marth/G&W

And that's most of what matters.