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Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff
- Thread starter Mahone
- Start date
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
I also like usmash oos, but it's kinda situational and easily punished off a read.
I spent my entire sophomore year of college playing this MU from Falcon's side, and I agree with much of what's been said. You need to practice those edgeguards and you ESPECIALLY need to shield less. Dthrow -> knee is guaranteed (or as good as) at basically any %, so you CANNOT afford to get grabbed. Crouch is a better alternative to shield, most of Falcon's stuff with the exception of stomp and knee can be CC'd at low %'s.
The rest of Falcon's game is bait-and-punish. Watch for his empty jump -> dj patterns, that is a classic Falcon juke to bait you into moving/attacking/shielding/doing something with the empty jump and then punishing with a dj fastfalled aerial/tomahawk/something. You want to turn his game against him by baiting his aerial/tomahawk/whatever and then punishing it.
When you are recovering, be very careful how you use Pound. It's really laggy and Falcons will look for it, and they can run out there and knee you from really far away. It's better to empty hop or fair when you get close, since doing an aerial increases your air speed and makes it much riskier for Falcon to chase you offstage.
Overall, patience is key in this MU. You want to keep your spacing and avoid getting hit rather than trading. Make sure you always DI down and away out of combos for as long as possible (i.e., until DI down and away will literally kill you). You're better off going offstage and trying to recover than you are trying to interrupt the combo, which will most likely trade. In fact, aerial hits in general usually trade, so don't go airborne unnecessarily. Also, don't feel obligated to follow up every poke or single hit in the neutral game. Falcon has a greater reliance on combos than you do, and if you get a few hits in and keep him bottled up in the neutral game long enough, he'll eventually be forced to go for something risky which you can punish.
Just remember that this MU really is pretty even, you have disadvantages that you need to avoid but you also have advantages you can lean on.
Bones0
Smash Legend
What allows Jiggs to stay so cool during the summer?
(No one will get it.)
(No one will get it.)
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
... Vanillite?
MaPow
Smash Apprentice
I got destroyed by two solid falcons in my first tourney. I have a hard time predicting what they are going to do. And I remember them baiting me well and punishing me with deadly strings in the air. DI'ing down and away makes sense and should help prevent that. I could edge guard them well, but I couldn't really find that many opportunities to land a string of Bairs or Fairs to get them offstage.
I am looking forward to this.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Bair conditioning.
Mahone
Smash Champion
it also helps that shes bair naked
Bones0
Smash Legend
It was a team joke. 11/10
Bones0
Smash Legend
Just bairly though.
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
Fair enough.
Translucent
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 20, 2012
- Messages
- 354
I Dair people to go on with these terrible jokes.... Have we not seen these too many times yet?
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Upairently not.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
And I'm done.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Come on, guys, we've only got one more aerial to go! We're nairly there!
Bones0
Smash Legend
Next person to make a pun is a ne'er-do-well.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
What do you guys think about the viability of using upB to take the ledge, seeing that as long as you haven't used an aerial jump, it's possible to upB in the air without accidentally doing a dj?
If you are near the ledge (but farther than wd distance), running off the ledge and upB to grab on backwards seems faster than turning around and short hopping backwards. If you are farther away from the ledge and facing towards the ledge, sh or fj off the ledge and upB right as you dip below stage level seems like it saves a little time over turn around and sh or fj backwards. It looks whack as **** if you time it so that the Sing animation doesn't visibly come out, it looks like you just grabbed onto the ledge backwards.
Beyond a certain point, even if you are facing the ledge, turning around and sh backwards -> [dj aerial backwards]*x becomes the fastest way to take the ledge, but there seems to me to be a certain range where running to where a fj will just barely take you offstage, then fj forwards and upB right as you dip below stage level seems faster.
If you are near the ledge (but farther than wd distance), running off the ledge and upB to grab on backwards seems faster than turning around and short hopping backwards. If you are farther away from the ledge and facing towards the ledge, sh or fj off the ledge and upB right as you dip below stage level seems like it saves a little time over turn around and sh or fj backwards. It looks whack as **** if you time it so that the Sing animation doesn't visibly come out, it looks like you just grabbed onto the ledge backwards.
Beyond a certain point, even if you are facing the ledge, turning around and sh backwards -> [dj aerial backwards]*x becomes the fastest way to take the ledge, but there seems to me to be a certain range where running to where a fj will just barely take you offstage, then fj forwards and upB right as you dip below stage level seems faster.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I thought this was the Falco forums, so I reread your post like 5 times thinking you must be ********. LOL
I am curious how fast WDing is compared to Puff's aerial drift. It seems like it's actually faster for short distances, so I think it might be optimal to begin travelling to the ledge with a WD, and finish with a WD onto the ledge (or perhaps if you are facing the wrong way, a WD into a ledge sing). Also, this reminds me of something I brainstormed earlier. It seems like Puffs often try to cover ledge height side-Bs from Fox, and as a result the Fox will dip down below the ledge a little and up-B with the Puff just barely too high to catch him in time. I think it'd be cool if, immediately after covering the high option from Fox, Puff reverse Rollouts onto the ledge to continue the edgeguard. :D
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
Well you could full jump turn around and waveland to grab the ledge. I do use sing to sweet spot the ledge, mostly just to refresh invincibility.
I mean doing it is possible and I've used sing to take the ledge from people when they upB but its still high risk so I try not to overuse it. Not sure how much faster it'd be.
I mean doing it is possible and I've used sing to take the ledge from people when they upB but its still high risk so I try not to overuse it. Not sure how much faster it'd be.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Or you could moonwalk. 
idea
Smash Master
can't every character do the pc chris edgehog anyway? where you walk to the edge, turn around and fall off with walking momentum?
yeah, reverse up-b to grab the edge from onstage is generally the fastest way, but it's hard to time and just slightly better than the alternatives.
a better use of sing is when you're in the middle of an edgeguard and want to grab the edge but don't have time to turn around. i can remember a few instances where i wouldn't have completed the edgeguard/gotten back alive without doing this.
and it's faster than reverse rollout
not as swag, though.
yeah, reverse up-b to grab the edge from onstage is generally the fastest way, but it's hard to time and just slightly better than the alternatives.
a better use of sing is when you're in the middle of an edgeguard and want to grab the edge but don't have time to turn around. i can remember a few instances where i wouldn't have completed the edgeguard/gotten back alive without doing this.
and it's faster than reverse rollout
not as swag, though.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
I'll accept that using Sing to grab the ledge is not significantly faster than the alternatives, but I don't think it's that hard to time because it's the exact same timing as for shield dropping. You just roll the Control Stick from forward, to just a smidge past the 45-degree diagonal forward and up, and then press B. And if you haven't used an aerial jump, then you can buffer the "up" input at the end of a fair or nair or something super easy.
I disagree that starting with a wd and then jumping is better than just jumping.
The reason wd is faster than the aerial drift over short distances but slower over long distances is because aerial drift needs to accelerate and wd doesn't, but full speed aerial drift is faster than wd.
If you wd and then jump, you get the worst of both worlds. You will still have to deal with air acceleration after the jump, only you now have less distance over which to utilize your full air speed, if you even have enough space to reach full air speed. It will now also take longer for you to fall down to stage height and grab the ledge than if you just jumped to start with. On top of that, you covered the first 1 wd length of your journey with a wd, which is slower than full speed aerial drift over the same distance.
I guess I can see wd -> jump being faster over a few, very specific distances (such as if that wd lets you use fewer jumps and spend less time falling), but I don't think it's faster in general.
I feel like I've read somewhere that characters keep their ground momentum when they sh, which is why running and shorthopping puts characters like Fox/Falcon instantly at full air speed. If that's accurate, then what I think would be fastest with Puff is dash -> immediate sh.
I cannot wait for the glorious day when a Puff (preferably me) edgeguards a Fox by perfectly timing a reverse Rollout or reverse Sing onto the ledge, then using the invinc frames to ledgehop rest the Fox out of his upB.
Voltz
Smash Journeyman
Slow thread...
Anyways, pound to rest is not guaranteed, but it is fun to see someone's face when it works.
Anyways, pound to rest is not guaranteed, but it is fun to see someone's face when it works.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Slow thread...
Anyways, pound to rest is not guaranteed, but it is fun to see someone's face when it works.
Pound to rest true combos pretty often, especially against spacies.
MaPow
Smash Apprentice
I have pulled off a double pound to rest on a fox before XD
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
So I want to play some puff in a serious capacity.
That's all I got, pretty much don't know where to start improving because I need to do everything better lol I also do not I fully understand the character. Any good posts to read or anything?
That's all I got, pretty much don't know where to start improving because I need to do everything better lol I also do not I fully understand the character. Any good posts to read or anything?
Krynxe
I can't pronounce it either
read the op
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Any tips on how to approach Doc, guys? I played a decent Doc a while back, kept eating pills when I tried to approach. I was prob just being stupid and impatient, but is there any trick to it?
Krynxe
I can't pronounce it either
Be above them, don't get uair'd or random fair'd for it
throwing a pill is unsafe and laggy, so wavedash in with your back turned and bair oos if he does an unsafe pill. Usually, they'll do retreating pills to stay safe, so just shield it and move in and back him into the ledge until he doesn't have any more space. Make sure to cover the platforms with uairs and cover his jumping with bairs and you can just control the stage easily. Just don't be a scrub and do random aeriel movement and bair spacing, cause pills beat it out and you need to be thoughtful about your stage control and movement.
throwing a pill is unsafe and laggy, so wavedash in with your back turned and bair oos if he does an unsafe pill. Usually, they'll do retreating pills to stay safe, so just shield it and move in and back him into the ledge until he doesn't have any more space. Make sure to cover the platforms with uairs and cover his jumping with bairs and you can just control the stage easily. Just don't be a scrub and do random aeriel movement and bair spacing, cause pills beat it out and you need to be thoughtful about your stage control and movement.
Bones0
Smash Legend
#Mahoned
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Thanks for the tips. I'll try staying more grounded next time and being more deliberate with my aerial movement.
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- Mar 14, 2011
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- 5,493
Grabs are good vs Doc too, cause grabs > CC.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
why don't I ever see drill->rest
at the percents where drill usmash or drill grab true combos (if they don't SDI it) can't you just rest?
at the percents where drill usmash or drill grab true combos (if they don't SDI it) can't you just rest?
Mahone
Smash Champion
ya, but there's little leeway in spacing and timing vs upsmash... im sure we'll see it in the future though
also, i think kyrnxe doc advice is great but bones and shroudedone's advice is just not good
bones is just wrong and isnt based only playing the mu or hed know that doesnt work well based on the trajectory of pills and how doc usually follows up pills and spaces them
and shroudedones i guess is technically not wrong since grabs are good when u get them vs everyone, but i dont think spacing to get grabs vs doc is good at all and itll do more harm than good to be going for that kind of spacing vs just aerialing him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VLY0Y1Ew-I
i just watch this, its a great set to see how to destroy doc
also, i think kyrnxe doc advice is great but bones and shroudedone's advice is just not good
bones is just wrong and isnt based only playing the mu or hed know that doesnt work well based on the trajectory of pills and how doc usually follows up pills and spaces them
and shroudedones i guess is technically not wrong since grabs are good when u get them vs everyone, but i dont think spacing to get grabs vs doc is good at all and itll do more harm than good to be going for that kind of spacing vs just aerialing him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VLY0Y1Ew-I
i just watch this, its a great set to see how to destroy doc