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Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Do you guys ever use buffered jump? I find it harder to get full control on directions and stuff...

:phone:
Buffered jump is pretty much pointless unless you're using it as an escape option. The problem is if you're using it to do something like bair/fair OoS, your aerial isn't going to come out any sooner because the timing of your aerial is based on when you THINK you will be able to jump. So lets say you wanted to FH bair asap. If you buffer the jump, your brain is recognizing when you are out of stun, and then you bair 5 frames after it ends (Jiggs has 4 frames of jump squat iirc). Because you're human and there's staling and timing nonsense going on, let's say you usually jump OoS 2 frames late. Even if you jump OoS 2 frames late, your bair is still going to come out on frame 5 of your jump because your timing of bair is based on the timing of your jump. If you buffered the jump, those 2 frames of discrepancy in which you thought you wouldn't be able to jump get spent in the air instead of in shield. That means you aren't jumping 2 frames late, but you're bairing 2 frames late, which I would argue is worse. It means your spacing is off and you are spending less time shielding without doing anything to protect yourself.

On top of that, it's also extremely hard to SH if you wanted to. The example above was if you wanted to FH OoS. If you want to SH, you have to hold the C-stick down, and then time the let-go so that it is during those 4 frames of jump squat. Holding a frame too long because you didn't correctly evaluate how much stun you will have means you're going to FH instead, which can be disastrous for obvious reasons. The only time I would ever think about buffering a jump OoS is when I want to escape. As a Falco, FHing is quite ridiculously safe as an escape option, but even with him he is prone to a lot of mixups that will get him caught. For instance, let's say I am on a platform and want to FH away because a Marth is underneath me. He has SHed, so I think he will either late uair or DJWL tomahawk. Instead of trying to react to it, I can hold the C-stick up as soon as his uair stun would begin IF he used it. If he doesn't use it when I thought he would, then as he DJs onto the plat to grab I will already be FHing away. This is great and all, but it overlooks the possibility of him DJing into a uair. So basically I don't like buffering jump OoS because it messes heavily with your timing (unless you're keeping track of which moves are staled, there's no way your OoS timings will be accurate every time) and for ANY buffered action, you're inevitably committing to that action earlier than if you aren't buffering. Maybe someone just uses C-stick to jump OoS regularly, which is fine, but if they start trying to buffer with it they're still going to fall victim to the first problem.
 

Kaizer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 13, 2005
Messages
303
Location
Oslo, Norway
Yeah, I agree. But since we are talking about puff, couldn't it be legit to buffer a jump out of bthrow > jump > bair/whatever in an edgeguard situation? Like, using it for positioning and spacing and stuff? All in all we are talking about saving a couple of frames, so it's pretty marginal what you get out of it. I just wondered if it was worth incorperating.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Yeah, I guess it could be used there. If your problem during that situation is drifting, why not just the direction during the throw's cool down, hold shield (you won't roll as long as you hold the direction before the shield comes up), and then hold up on the C-stick? Also, because you have to shield first, timing a jump perfectly out of the throw would actually be faster, and being just a frame late would mean it has no difference from a buffer.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
TBH I much prefer jumping out facing forward than backward because of the duration of her attacks in that stance, and the angles they cover. If they move as far away as they can horizontally, then the extra range of the bair is irrelevant provided you time and/or angle the fair or nair appropriately. The dair being able to reach a bit below is nice for catching certain fades or simply if they fast fall so low to stall out the duration of the other two (since dair reaches longer, it shrinks how long you need it to last). It also feels like you can action after it quickly, so fast falling it in a lot of positions isn't a big deal / shouldn't open you up to counter-gimps by Fox. And if they go up, you can uair in either position and sometimes it does more than 11% and other times it doesn't but oh well. Puff is slow going up what else is new.

Oh the above is in regards to vs spacies btw. Against characters who can DJ into a huge attack then I prefer to be backwards because you can bair through it or mix with grabbing the edge since all those characters have conveniently restable Up+Bs. And get bair chained really easily if they're over like 25%, which is easy as hell to produce (may require an edgecancel to get the 2nd bair out super fast if they appear slightly inwards to and above the stage but edgecancels are also easy to produce with this character).
 

Kaizer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 13, 2005
Messages
303
Location
Oslo, Norway
I have this feeling Hbox gonna tear **** apart at apex ;)

I got an epiphany concerning using more jumps. I've been doing the old school wall of pain for way too long, and the stuff you guys wrote a while ago really helped me recently. I've never thought about asking for critique before, but it turns out it's a amazing tool, at least w/ the puffs. Yeah!



edit: oh, and happy holidays fellow puffians!
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Yeah, I tried doing SH bair, DJ bair and I got a bunch of free hits on Marth's fair OoS attempts. I still get hit by that way too often though. :mad:
 

hungrybox

Smash Legend
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
12,203
Location
Orlando, FL (walking distance from the Loop)
Yeah, I agree. But since we are talking about puff, couldn't it be legit to buffer a jump out of bthrow > jump > bair/whatever in an edgeguard situation? Like, using it for positioning and spacing and stuff? All in all we are talking about saving a couple of frames, so it's pretty marginal what you get out of it. I just wondered if it was worth incorperating.
your avatar <333333
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Dair -> rest is easy now. Life is good. What else can I do out of dairs? I can grab, but I usually mess up when they are behind me, and usmash is pretty easy, but utilt somehow eludes me. It seems so slow sometimes.

Also, any general tips on edgeguarding Marth would be great. I have just been using desperation dropzone nairs/fairs and I usually end up dying as a result... Is it better to just wait on stage and make them get off the ledge, or is there a way to manage invinc so that he won't hit me as I try and hit hit with a LH attack?



You better destroy Armada at Apex, Hbox. No 3 sets going down to the wire nonsense. I want a 3-0, and potentially make him feel so helpless that he has to go Peach. ;D
 

Mahone

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
2,940
Location
Blacksburg, VA
if marth goes low, marthkiller is an amazing and underused option

@boom: this is too much for me to handle right now lol, when my eyes are more prepared ill check it out
 

idea

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
4,123
Location
Come By Chance Mews
you're kind of guessing what the fox is gonna do and moving toward him with aerials some of the time...that's why it seems like you're hitting him a lot but the stocks are always about even. it would help to focus more attention on avoiding getting hit yourself.

you also just have a habit of ending up above fox's head more than you need to. you definitely don't want to let fox get under you.

also you missed a bunch of l-cancels.

other than that...i dunno, there were some little move selection things. one time near the start of the yoshi's story match you naired him and he just stood there, and you could have grabbed him, but you jabbed instead. but in that situation (low % fox) nair and jab usually serve the same purpose, to interrupt him while trying to be close enough to grab afterward, so it was redundant to do both.

i mean, maybe you know that in theory but just did that 'cause it felt right at the time...but you DID enough have time to see that the nair hit and he didn't CC and that you had time to grab him.

actually i think that's a pretty important general jigglypuff thing to watch for: "I hit with some random move; can I grab them? If yes, press grab + up immediately"...if you can process that really quickly it will get lots of random kills lol

pretty general advice but hope it helps :p

oh, and yeah, gotta hit more edgeguards. assume fox is gonna illusion and cover that option; if he doesn't you can still react to firefox.

edit: one more thing...pay more attention to their % too. you should never dash attack fox at 0% :p
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
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Spiral Mountain
@ Boomrested

Use more spaced grab once you've gotten him to sit still or attacking badly.

Your use of Pound is terrible on the whole.

You get caught stuck on the ground or whatever too much and get drill shined for it. Shield isn't a great answer for Fox's stuff at high level, although this guy sucks so you got free shield grab u-throw rests. Either way, I think you could have handled it better on the whole; I feel your timing after landing is weak and that's why it seems like you get stuck. Or you spend time verifying things and then sit there. This forces you to shield rather than move. WD and jump give Puff a lot of options to combat these things. If you do shield, use more WD OOS and roll since they have reasonable safety.

Don't try to force u-tilts after nairs or whatever into Fox's shield. He can shine between them because u-tilt is slow or simply jump > fall on your u-tilt's lag > free aerial.

You need to space your AC nairs better, especially if you plan on hitting them somewhat high into the shield. And do your other aerials (especially fair) need to be spaced better and placed lower into his shield. Or simply don't do them if you don't think you can get one.

Your edgeguarding sucks. You need to plan for what will kill them. I feel you're just tossing a move at him and a lot of times it's inappropriate and you drop control (ledgehop dair, dying when you drop off into bair on YS, etc). If you can't guard something, take control of the stage and pressure them off.

The main response after being hit by Puff is to move (if Puff cannot be counterattacked). Maintaining a flow of aerials until you've stopped them from moving, or attempting to intercept their movement after you've poked him is worthwhile. Don't try to force u-tilts, focus on where he's going. If they begin to shield then either grab or space aerials & place them low onto the shield for pressure. Most of this also applies to shield, provided you're maximizing your frame advantage & pressure by doing aerials low & spaced.

Use your variable KB to set up tech chases and other traps. Strong nair / fair > jump to where they're gonna hit the floor > hover over it and react (dair > grab can be great here) can be really strong plays. Dair is worth learning.
 

Landry

Smash Ace
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
839
Alright so if youre above someone what should you do to get down? I usually try to space myself out and throw out bairs or just do a falling nair or something. Man, being above someone as Puff is bad news.
 

Mahone

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
2,940
Location
Blacksburg, VA
ya, ur only really good option is nair, but that option is pretty ****ing good

once they start waiting and upsmashing or something else to beat it, i would just land on side platforms and take my time moving around until they mess up their movement


movement on the ground while being in a good position to get a hitbox out is a lot harder than just aerial movement with puff, so just abuse that

it ofc depends who you are playing against, like against marth, dont do nair lol, u just have to bait him into throwing out lag and then quickly fastfalling to the ground (or maybe even punishing that lag)
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
ok sorry for being a jerk. I am just irritable cause marth sucks so bad in this game. waste 3 hrs learning peach's combo tree on sheik and realize it's better than marths except for covering top platform on the big stages
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
lol, yeah, pretty much..except above marth...though if he has platforms even then:\ but i don't really believe plaform camping falco beats marth. Westballz kind of got wrecked (ie barely lost). It's more the PP style of falco that i'm afraid of.

Oh wait I play peach now; all that's trauma is in the past. Gotta just forget and move on
 

Mahone

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
2,940
Location
Blacksburg, VA
lol, ill admit thats true, but ive also heard that jiggs shielddrop blows, i practiced it a little but i wasn't sure what i would actually do out of it
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
ok sorry for being a jerk. I am just irritable cause marth sucks so bad in this game. waste 3 hrs learning peach's combo tree on sheik and realize it's better than marths except for covering top platform on the big stages
sucks so bad = top 6

Ok :glare:
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
lol, ill admit thats true, but ive also heard that jiggs shielddrop blows, i practiced it a little but i wasn't sure what i would actually do out of it
I thought it sucked too, but after further practice it seems to have some uses. She does this weird crouch animation when she drops through so she will actually avoid a lot of stuff while dropping through. I usually just shield drop uair, but even just shield dropping to get out of pressure and reset the situation is way better than her slow *** roll.
 

Anand

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
282
Location
Cambridge, MA
I thought it sucked too, but after further practice it seems to have some uses. She does this weird crouch animation when she drops through so she will actually avoid a lot of stuff while dropping through. I usually just shield drop uair, but even just shield dropping to get out of pressure and reset the situation is way better than her slow *** roll.
You should try doing shield drop dair rest if they are under the platform.
 

Landry

Smash Ace
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
839
So hey, can you guys advise me on some tech stuff to practice with Puff? I'm on break so I don't have people to play with for a few weeks so I figured I'd just work on tech skill and random stuff. I've been putting a ton of time into Falco stuff but I figure I gotta give Puff some work too :)
 

Mahone

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
2,940
Location
Blacksburg, VA
READ THE ABOVE POST MAN

be the first to lead us to victory


ill answer more seriously when im not tired, i might just make a list, get your guys input, and get it stickied since its such a common question
 

Massive

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
2,833
Location
Kansas City, MO
These are the puff things I practice in the rare event I am motivated to do so:
  • Dair L-cancel > usmash/grab/rest
  • Autocancel nair timing/height (from airborne state)
  • Ledgecancelled aerials on every possible platform
  • Waveland back/forward to jab/grab
  • Foxfire non-trading attack angle
  • Omnidirectional sing ledgehog

:phone:
 

Mahone

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
2,940
Location
Blacksburg, VA
really good list by massive

i like just moving around with upairs (but practice this with all the aerials) starting them at different heights and different fastfalling timings, and then trying to do SOMETHING the instant i land

its important to change that SOMETHING, sometimes do a jab, sometimes dash away, sometimes dash attack, sometimes instant sh bair, etc.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I remember you, I just didn't remember doing it to you. I vaguely remember yelling "OMG HERE COMES THE SHIELD DROP DAIR-REST!" now that I think about it... lol
 
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