M2K stuff about Marth (big update first post)

[jngshin]

i would not be surprised at all if brawl was a terrible game competitive-wise. its clear that nintendo geared it towards the casual, thinking Wii has good games crowd. Face it. The depth and complexity of Melee was a fluke.

 

[spoonyd]

I definitely hafta agree with the fluke comment. It was clearly a mistake as a whole for it to be as complicated in the tech arena as it was. I've been saying since the announcement of Brawl the same thing you just pointed out. Melee was obviously a great game but it was a mistake and there's just no way Nintendo will "mess up" and make another GREAT competitive and difficult game. It's a shame game makers hafta dumb down games for people to get good at in a week because of all the instant gratification in this country.

 

[Dark Sonic]

WDing needed to exist else dodging into the ground would get us stuck in it. Even now, WDing is still there, but they had to change the engine itself to make it less abusable (exploitable).

Didn't know about z-canceling, I stand corrected =o.

They didn't change the engine specifically to get rid of wavedashing. They changed the engine because they wanted brawl to be more floaty, and they wanted airdodging to maintain your momentum this time around. This in directly removed wavedashing.

Also, L-canceling was completely intended in melee, and was specifically added to increase depth. It was that secret technique you find in a game that makes you like 10 times better.

Also, smash is not the only fighting game with counter intuitive techs. How the hell were you supposed to find out how to Roman Cancel in guilty gear? How were you supposed to find out the lag cancel in NGT (naruto series for the gamecube. The cancel is done by pressing Y after an attack that sends your opponent airborne. It removes all lag.) A few counter intuitive techs isn't really a bad thing at all, because it just basically delays how long it takes to find them.

 

[BentoBox]

1. They didn't change the engine specifically to get rid of wavedashing. They changed the engine because they wanted brawl to be more floaty, and they wanted airdodging to maintain your momentum this time around. This in directly removed wavedashing.

2. Also, L-canceling was completely intended in melee, and was specifically added to increase depth. It was that secret technique you find in a game that makes you like 10 times better.

3. Also, smash is not the only fighting game with counter intuitive techs. How the hell were you supposed to find out how to Roman Cancel in guilty gear? How were you supposed to find out the lag cancel in NGT (naruto series for the gamecube. The cancel is done by pressing Y after an attack that sends your opponent airborne. It removes all lag.) A few counter intuitive techs isn't really a bad thing at all, because it just basically delays how long it takes to find them.

1. They didn't need to build an engine from scratch if all they wanted was to modify the gravity. They could've easily modified one simple value to get the same effects. And I guess we'll never really know about the true intentions of sakurai, whether he wanted to remove the abusable form of WDing or not.

2. Is that coming from the mouth of a dev? Really, I'll need some proof because your word alone isn't enough.

3. There's a difference between adding a counter-intuitive tech, and discovering one that wasn't meant to be. To me, what sets apart Smash from the rest of the fighters is the intuitive controls, and I believe the devs wanted to stand by that when developing brawl. If L-Cancel really was intended, then that's pretty much one of the very few that were actually meant to be.

 

[Mew2King]

no one CARES what things MEANT to be, the fact is what it IS, melee HAS more competitive depth.

stop talking about this in my thread or I won't be doing any lists or any help to anyone, I'm really tired of this.

think what you want, I don't care, we have 27 pages of mostly just this, this is a MARTH thread not a general discussion thread, obviously none of your opinions persuade mine, or vice versa, so just leave it at that. It's not going to change anything at all. Talk about Marth here, or something else different at least.

 

[verditude]

OK, sure. So, how well does Marth edgeguard compared to the rest of the cast?

 

[Mew2King]

his edge guarding is extremely good, if you get tipper fairs, unlike (and the very opposite of) Melee, fairs hit super horizontal (with DI it's more of an angle though, but it's still good).

 

[Black_jo]

does the down b edgeguard still works

 

[verditude]

It probably wouldn't, if you're trying to do it the same way you did in Melee. The opponent will just sweetspot the ledge. However, it might work against characters like Fox, when they aim their recovery move at you instead of the ledge.
In any case, you'd probably need to follow up by jumping out and hitting with a fair anyway.

 

[Miggz]

My biggest concern is the dash dancing. With it gone, approaching with Marth sounds pretty interesting.

Hey M2K...have you gotten use to the fast fall/auto cancel of Marth's aerials yet? My friend (although I think its totally him lol) says the cancels happen at random for him. The timing isn't all that bad, ya?

 

[J.L]

Hey M2k, what makes Azen's Ike so difficult to face? You keep mentioning that Marth and Toon Link as well as Pit are top tier, yet from what I interpret, you lose a lot to Azen's Ike using Marth. Why dont you mention Ike as being a potential top tier? Just wondering, thanks.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

My biggest concern is the dash dancing. With it gone, approaching with Marth sounds pretty interesting.

Hey M2K...have you gotten use to the fast fall/auto cancel of Marth's aerials yet? My friend (although I think its totally him lol) says the cancels happen at random for him. The timing isn't all that bad, ya?

Well, the new Foxtrot is an almost prefect replacement for Dash Dancing, check out this video. What I'm more worried about is tripping, which would probably make foxtrotting alot a bit unsafe.

Hey M2k, what makes Azen's Ike so difficult to face? You keep mentioning that Marth and Toon Link as well as Pit are top tier, yet from what I interpret, you lose a lot to Azen's Ike using Marth. Why dont you mention Ike as being a potential top tier? Just wondering, thanks.

Mostly it's Azen's amazing talent for smash, but Ike is a good character because he is so hard to approach, as well as being powerful. If the ike spaces well, you can get the most out of his huuuge hitboxes, and anytime the opponent gets hit, it hurts because of how hard Ike hits.

From what EL posted in the Brawl Tier list discussion thread, he also has lots of great other stuff, like uthrow->upb, and Super Armor on his AAA.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ike is NOT top tier. He is high tier most likely.

He is good, but still has his limitations. As of right now he has the worst recovery.

Marth overall is the better character, but Ike is still a beast. I can see him winning some tournies, but only in the dedicated hands.

 

[IrArby]

Is Fsmash still a legit fair combo ender like it was in Melee? Like double sh fair - land - Fsmash. The fact the fair's new trajectory is horizontal is def good news.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Is Fsmash still a legit fair combo ender like it was in Melee? Like double sh fair - land - Fsmash. The fact the fair's new trajectory is horizontal is def good news.

I don't know for sure, since I don't have the game, but they could probably airdodge if you just try to fsmash. However, because it's such a huge disjointed hitbox, they most likely couldn't break out with an attack.

 

[IrArby]

Next question. I got into adv techs late so I never got great with the more advanced DI manuever thingies but I was wondering if DI works similar to how it worked in Melee. What I'm getting at is the huge lag after you land an Fsmash where I think was supposed to be a crucial moment if you were gonna DI it and survive.

Like I said I may be completely wrong but I'm wondering if thats the case then Brawls huge Fsmash lag for Marth gives the opponent alot more time to DI the hit and survive. As if lower gravity wasn't enough!

Also, should I be posting these in Q & A. This thread has pissed off enough people so I'll try to stay clear of that.

Oh yea one more thing. Does rolling off the edge still have lag time before an opponent can grab the edge. At round 2:55 in this video it would seem not. Thanks in advance.

 

[InfiniDragon615]

Ike is NOT top tier. He is high tier most likely.

He is good, but still has his limitations. As of right now he has the worst recovery.

Marth overall is the better character, but Ike is still a beast. I can see him winning some tournies, but only in the dedicated hands.

Whoa, wha? Ike's recovery seems pretty decent from what I've played of him. If you want to talk about ganked, talk Snake or Olimar. Their recovery is gutter trash.

As for Marth, I really don't mind if Ike is better than he is or vice versa, though as of now I agree with the statement that Marth is the better of the two. I'll be playing them both.

 

[Hydde]

Olimar maybe. but snake´s recovery has its uses.

 

[Mr.C]

Any character with tether recovery you can just get on the edge and cause them to suicide if they try and use it off the stage for recovery purposes. For some reason if someone is hanging on the edge while you tether it doesn't home to the ledge and just goes straight up causing them to die. Olimar, Ivy, ZSS, have pretty horrible recovery because of this.

 

[BentoBox]

Snake's recovery is trash even with his own version of bomb jumping?

Also, considering the low hit stun, is airdodging possible right after getting hit? Not a lot of people seem to know that it decreases momentum from the vids I've seen... And who's marth toughest matchup?

 

[VersatileBJN]

Can someone with the game state clearly reasons for using nair over fair in the air or visa versa? The both seem like Marth's best overall aerials, but why one over the other?

Nair seems to leave more room for error in that you probably get more out of it when not tipped than you with fair. Also easier to hit with since it's a double slash rather than a single.

Is it that nair is the easier move to apply, but fair is the better one when used skillfully?

Looking to be one of the better Marth/Ike players, so I appreciate any stuff I can learn about either before I can get my hands on the game. Thanks

- V

 

[VersatileBJN]

It also just hit me that because of the emphasis on perfect shielding in this game(in that it is much easier to use and more practical in competitive play) using fair in a predictable manner just because it's safe and spammable may not be a good idea since a well timed PS can probably punish him. This is possibly where nair comes into play since it is going to be a much harder move to PS effectively.

Just speculation though.

 

[greenblob]

Fair is better for combos, I think.

 

[shadydentist]

Fair is also better for spacing, as you cant get shieldgrabbed out of it.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

[url=http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60218]Next question. I got into adv techs late so I never got great with the more advanced DI manuever thingies but I was wondering if DI works similar to how it worked in Melee. What I'm getting at is the huge lag after you land an Fsmash where I think was supposed to be a crucial moment if you were gonna DI it and survive.

Like I said I may be completely wrong but I'm wondering if thats the case then Brawls huge Fsmash lag for Marth gives the opponent alot more time to DI the hit and survive. As if lower gravity wasn't enough!

Also, should I be posting these in Q & A. This thread has pissed off enough people so I'll try to stay clear of that.

Oh yea one more thing. Does rolling off the edge still have lag time before an opponent can grab the edge. At round 2:55 in this video it would seem not. Thanks in advance.

Brawl's DI works the same from what I've heard. Click any part of this post to read the thread that will enlighten you.[/url]

EDIT:

Whoa, wha? Ike's recovery seems pretty decent from what I've played of him. If you want to talk about ganked, talk Snake or Olimar. Their recovery is gutter trash.

Ike's recovery would be amazing in Melee, but is horrible in Brawl because everyone except for him auto sweetspots. Because he throws his sword away, he can't auto sweetspot with up b, which makes it really easy to EG him.

 

[icraq]

Brawl's DI works the same from what I've heard. Click any part of this post to read the thread that will enlighten you.

I'm pretty sure the C stick does nothing now. Everything else seems the same with DI.

 

[Meljin]

Sonic don't do sweetspots too, for exemple. And don't think Ike is easy to edgeguard, Ok, he don't sweetspot, but when he launch his sword, it do some damages, and then opponent can't edgeguard. Best way is again, and always, grabbing the edge, if he want to do it, he fall, if he tuch the ground, edge hog and hit =P

 

[J.L]

Cant you just counter his up b?

 

[BentoBox]

He still has his over-b whenever he's above the stage D:

 

[Meljin]

J.L i'm not sure, but the counter will hit Ike in his ascension (when he's invincible) so it's an edgeguard yes, but not very usefull...

 

[verditude]

Can you hit Ike out of it while he's coming down? If not, edgehogging or guarding Aether wuld be really difficult.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Cant you just counter his up b?

Like Monsieur Meljin said, it would hit during his super armor frames. Maybe, if the counter recovers fast enough you could still edgeguard him, but I'm not so sure about that. It's probably more effective to shield and kill him when he's coming down or lagging from landing.

EDIT:

Can you hit Ike out of it while he's coming down? If not, edgehogging or guarding Aether wuld be really difficult.

Yes, he only has super armor until he reaches his sword, I think.

EDIT again: My bad, I checked the Ike boards and apparently he has super armor until he lands, so you have to wait for him to land before you can kill him.

 

[PR3Y11]

from my experience of playing against ikes.... it's easy to EG if you time it right and if your opponent sucks and does the exact same thing to get back every time,
ike's ^B: i find fairly easy to EG, you can either hang on to the edge with your invincibility while ike falls to his death, counter it, OR you could go suicidal since most of the time the ^B will be used when below the stage and attack while the swords away from him
but his overB is a little more challenging for me because it can be held...well, forever - when i go out to attack i usually end up being hit first and if i try to counter it's either too late or too early, so i usually just end up camping out and SGing to throw off again

are there any other ways or rather more effective ways of approaching this?

 

[Meljin]

I will take a look of the up B of Ike this night (France hour, +1). Stay tuned for the edit, but i think the Witchking edit is right...

 

[Mr.C]

Ike is EXTREMELY easy to gimp on the edge. Throw him off..if you aerial him once hes pretty much dead.

This is just an example of how easy Ike is to kill.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lvZl7VAaxlw

 

[BentoBox]

Hylian says that Marth's got nothing on Samus. Beware!

 

[Ryan-K]

I've seen some video where Ike kept being countered by Marth during his up b off the ledge and it got him everytime. Also falco's shine can hit ike out of the peak of his up b, I do it on a consistent basis to get the edgehog.

 

[Irow]

Hylian says that Marth's got nothing on Samus. Beware!

On flat stages. Samus only has her missiles and zair to play against Marth right now.

If you get in, Samus ain't got nothing on fair, nair; hell, anything Marth has.

Don't worry, I'm sure we'll find counter strategies against projectiles like in Melee. If we found a way to play against Flaco's SHL, we can find ways around this. I'm quite sure that the strategies vs. Marth that the Samus boards have right now can be beat with a rising air to fair dogde to dodge the zair and the follow up grab they say works every time; fair to hit him.

Plus, on platform stages, Marth can avoid the projectiles easier.

EDIT: Anyone wanna go resurrect the Q&A and ask a question? I'm lonely over there, lol.

 

[Mew2King]

Anyone that can camp Marth well is hard matchups for him, that's all I can say at this point.


you cant down B edge guard cuz of auto sweet spots

online play sucks for competitive purposes unless both players have really good connections

azen is amazing

ikes recovery is good if you recover by forward Bing up high toward the middle of the stage

ike has massive range, and massive power, and good weight, and his triple jab does 16.something % damage and comes out pretty fast too. Ike is GOOD.





another thing, marth is invincible the first 5 (maybe 6) frames of his up B, while in SSBM it was only frame 5 you were invincible

what's this mean, UP B IS MARTHS NEW SHINE





here's another thing I did, some basic frames test for moves 10 frames or slower. Of all the moves I've tested, Forward B is faster, Forward Tilt is 1 frame slower and Down Smash is 1 frame slower, compared to SSBM. Here's some basic tests I spent an hour making

Fair - 4
Uair - 5
Nair - 6
Dair - 6
Bair - 7

U tilt - 6
D tilt - 7
F tilt - 8

D smash - 6
F smash - 10
U smash - probably 12 or 13 like SSBM

Forward B - 4
Up B - 5 (but now you are invincible frames 1 2 3 4 and 5, and possibly even 6 although I'm not sure on that, where as in melee you were only invincible ON frame 5, making up B marth's new SHINE)
Down B - 5
B - didn't test, but it's slower than his other standard moves

Dash attack - didn't test, but if I had to make an educated guesstimate I'd say 13

Jab - 4

this is all I tested so far, just wanna give that quick update for those curious.

most moves were the same exact starting time as in SSBM, just want to clear that up. To do frame tests I stand 2 characters next to each other, hold A or tilt A or something similar on both controller, then unpause, and if they are the same speed then they either clash usually or both guys get hit. If I think they are 1 frame apart, I stand them next to each other, do the move 1 frame before pausing (I keep redoing it until I'm sure it's only 1 frame difference) then unpause and they should probably collide. This is the most basic process of doing frame tests, and having a comparison chart like I did in SSBM was very useful for testing other things as well. I don't care as much anymore now though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So Marth has a Shoryuken now?

Sweet.