M2K stuff about Marth (big update first post)

[User33]

I'm fine with combos not being guaranteed if ther's a risk factor involved that will pay off if you can land them.

With practice, you should be able to read your opponents, and figure when the best oppurtunity is (like Ken combo after they use their double jump)

 

[Warlock*G]

Originally Posted by MookieRah
"You go around everywhere on this site posting this, but sadly it isn't true. This site was made by Gideon, a guy who is pretty darn casual in his smashing from what I can tell, and he created this site just cause there wasn't a good smash site at the time. He didn't have any intention on it being composed of the competitive smash community and that it would become the source of info for competitive play, but it ended up becoming that over time.

There is nothing wrong with casual smashers being on this site and discussing things; however they shouldn't get on their soap box and tell others how to play. I've been on this site for a long long time and there weren't ANY problems with casuals or competitive players until the new influx of members because of Brawl. Yeah, there are people who are legit "tourney***s" but they are the vast minority of competitive players. For the most part we don't tell you guys how to play, so we would appreciate getting the same kind of treatment from you guys.

I really don't think I'm asking for much here... There is no reason for us to be fighting."

Yay! Finally, someone else that's sending a peace message!! :D

 

[Mew2King]

I'm not past my prime I could probably improve a lot if I was given the time and experience

I'm basically saying I don't think the game has the same competitive potential, and I don't know why we are still arguing about this, the point of this thread is to tell you guys basic marth differences to give you a heads up idea. He's basically like SSBM Marth but with small differences here and there, which I explained in my first post.

You don't have to side with my opinion, I don't really care.




btw i'm doing some stat tests but im not going to make as many as i did for SSBM, what stat lists would you guys like to see first after I finish my current ones.

 

[Irow]

I need more percents for the Marth percent data I have on the Q&A thread. It's mostly the basic A moves, and B moves I need data on.

I'd like to have a list on grab ranges. Also, having a range test would be nice.



I really hope Brawl grows on you, it'd be a shame to not have a person like you on Brawl's competitive scene.

 

[Warlock*G]

btw i'm doing some stat tests but im not going to make as many as i did for SSBM, what stat lists would you guys like to see first after I finish my current ones.

I'm really curious about characters' weight and knockback ability...

 

[Mew2King]

explain more in detail what you'd want

also ken combo isn't a legit combo in this game, and fair combos aren't even legit combos either most, or all of the time if your opponent is as perfect as level 9s. And even though they aren't, it at least just shows what's POSSIBLE.

 

[Irow]

Like a list of the greatest grab range, to the least. Also speed of each grab.

Also, a list comparing everybody's overall range. It'd be nice to know how far each character can hit.

If you could, could you get data on how much frames of lag Marth has upon each aerial - I'd like to see to how it compares to Melee.

I'm sorry, I know it's a bit much.

 

[Warlock*G]

Alright, so you mean that Ken combo, along with most combos, isn't guaranteed. Well that adds some more randomness to that game...

Ok here's more detail about what I'd want: a list of the characters according to their weight (upper = heaviest, lower = lightest), plus a list of all the characters according to their best knockback attack (upper = most knockback, lower = less knockback).

So, for example, If Snake's fsmash got the best knockback in the game, he'll on top of the list, and if Kirby's best knockback attack is "the worst of the best", so to speak, he'll be at the bottom of the list.

Hope that made sense. But really, I'm mostly curious about all of the characters' weight.

 

[gagagoogoololo]

M2K:
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression <-- you are here
Acceptance

 

[MasterRaichu]

First off, I think everyone here should stop bashing Mew2King for his review of Brawl. While you may not agree with what he says, there's no reason to retaliate against it the way you all are. He's a knowledgable, experienced player in the smash community who has gotten his hands on a copy of Brawl, and is giving all of you a decent review from a PRO's point of view. I'm personally not a fan of his, but the guy knows his games, so cut him a break.

With that said, I think that rather than "Waiting for the game to develop", we need to try to "develop" the metagame as fast as possible for each character. Those that have imported the Japanese copy have already begun this process for us. Come March 9th, we all really need to get up off our ***** and play this game to the fullest, and experiment with each and every character. We all want this game to become competitive, so we should all try to contribute as much information to this community as we can. For those that played Melee from the BEGINNING, you all know that this was what happened that turned Melee into what it was.

While I haven't had the pleasure of playing the demos OR the full Japanese version, I can still conclude that Brawl is a totally different animal that needs a different mindset to play. Our Melee skills only give us a general idea of what to do. Any kind of "advanced play" is going to take a lot of experimentation followed by a lot of practice.

Over a long period of time, I believe that this game really will develop into something tournament worthy. However, without those that play and try to find the nuances in every little bit of the game that allow us to play at a higher level, we will NOT have a tournament worthy game. Regardless, everyone needs to keep remembering that we're not dealing with the same set of rules and metagames that Melee had. Keep an open mind, and experiment whenever possible.

 

[icraq]

explain more in detail what you'd want

how do i shoot tippers from my sword?

no, but if possible, i'd like more information on marth's hitboxes. i don't understand his down air, it doesn't seem to connect very well, and his up smash has a weird spike (on stages with a slant, opponent underneath, near ledge).
and what is up with his shield breaker? it seems like it can kill fresh shields on some characters, but not all.

 

[IrArby]

gagagoogoololo:
1st Post
6th Post <-----you are here
First Decent Post
First Intelligent Post
First Hair on Balls

Sorry I don't actually have a problem with your post but it was just begging to be tainted. I actually found it to be passibly clever. A see a new thread devoted entirely to 5 stages of Lameness in the notsodistant future.

... ugh Marth Rocks!

 

[Mew2King]

strongest F smash in knockback is DeDeDes, 2nd is Ikes

Snakes is up there, among some others




note to self - finish marth vs everyone F smash and Up Smash on center of FD list

another note to self - up/down from marths up smash will be Vertical Resistance or Vertical Weight, and for Horizontal it will be just called Weight

(Vertical is a combination of Weight + Fall speed, as it was in SSBM, HOWEVER, in Brawl weight is a much bigger factor to upwards KOs than Melee was. Samus in SSBM (dies off top fast, but still lives long upwards in Brawl) is good proof of this.

Bowsers the TRUE heaviest (left right) in just pure weight, while DeDeDe has the most upwards resistance, but if you combine it with DDDs great recovery due to 5 jumps, I think DeDeDe has the most "Endurance", which is how long he lives overall, which is too hard to rank properly in a stat list so I can't make one for that, but I can make the other two lists using Marths F smash and Marths Up Smash. I will also make a falling and fast fall falling speed list. I'll do it tomorrow most likely.




for now tho, im going to bed




edit - i just realized why falling speed matters less for living long in Brawl than it does in Melee, because you fall so slow in Brawl it's less of a factor, and WEIGHT is what determines how hard you get hit (and is the ONLY factor in determining how hard you are hit horizontally, and would be the same thing for vertical except that falling speed is taken into consideration, so falling speed has 3 factors: weight, falling speed, and falling speed acceleration).

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhmV7DAMOOY 0:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_23SkLNsBIo 3:30
zzzetc

Define combo?

It DEFINITELY looked like that was escapable. Just because someone does it doesn't mean it's a valid combo. I can CG noobs with shiek in PAL, doesn't mean it's an actual CG.

M2K:
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression <-- you are here
Acceptance

Pointless Post
Pointless Post
Pointless Post
Pointless Post <--- you are here
Pointless Post

 

[User33]

I'm sorry I said you were past your prime M2K. That was uncalled for.

Watching GAWES's videos, it looks like combos can be pulled off semi-easily though.

One question: Spammed moves make combos easier to link because of less knockback, but does it alter hit stun in any way?
I get the feeling that combos will be more situational...

 

[NJzFinest]

ooo yeah...the whole thin about attacks getting weaker as you use them more.

Does that mean, more combo potential? Hmm....something I must try out next time I play.

 

[BentoBox]

It DEFINITELY looked like that was escapable. Just because someone does it doesn't mean it's a valid combo. I can CG noobs with shiek in PAL, doesn't mean it's an actual CG.



Pointless Post
Pointless Post
Pointless Post
Pointless Post <--- you are here
Pointless Post

I don't really understand why the Ken combo against Lucas wasn't legit. In that specific match-up, there is about nothing lucas could counter with as Marth simply had a better range which enabled him to keep pressuring the lucas until the end. No matter how legit you think it is, it -was- a combo and as I've said earlier, some things will work agaisnt certain chars that won't necesarily work agaisnt others. If you manage to combo someone in a way that leaves him totally helpless, does it really matter that your opponent wasn't stunned the whole time?

 

[Emblem Lord]

If Lucas wasn't stunned then he could have done something. Therefore it wasn't a combo.

Combo means you are caught in stun time and you are unable to do anything to get out of the combo due to that stun.

If Lucas wasn't stunned then he could have airdodged at least.

 

[BentoBox]

That would rule out 100% of the combo videos as actual combo videos. Is that definition of a combo a general consensus?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

That would rule out 100% of the combo videos as actual combo videos. Is that definition of a combo a general consensus?

No it would not.

And yes, that is the definition of a combo.

 

[Emblem Lord]

LOL. No it wouldn't. Combo videos do have real combos. But understand that combo videos are for showing off. Most of the time alot of the combos are unrealistic and not worth doing.

A combo is only a combo if the opponent can't get out of it.

That is just what a combo is. There need not be any concensus. It is what it is.

 

[BentoBox]

No it would not.

And yes, that is the definition of a combo.

How would it not. Find me a combo video where "real" combos are being executed from the beginning to the end?

"A combo is only a combo if the opponent can't get out of it."

And what if the Lucas in that vid couldn't get out of it? Given his momentum, dodging wouldn't have been much help.

As soon as a variable such as tech-chasing becomes part of a combo, it rules it out automatically, since the player being combo'd is actually given options. Etc.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You made it sound like all the combos in any combo vid aren't true combos. That isn't true. Plus SSBM is a different engine, so let's not get into that. But the stun time rule still apllies.

Anyway if Lucas could have airdodged and didn't then it was a combo. Just a scew up on his part. Also if he still had his second jump then just airdodge and then recover.

Simple.

Why would you ever think that a combo was anything else but inescapable due to hit stun?

 

[BentoBox]

Why would I rule out most of what I had considered combos because given perfect player conditions, they would be escapable (ie. DIing in the wrong direction) ? =/ To me, being hit stunned is the equivalent of being helpless. Whether you can do something or not doesn't really matter. Most of what I had seen in combo vids I would consider combos, regardless of the fact that the people being pummeled could've done anything about their situation.

True combos are gone, sure.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well, in SSBM even if you DIed away alot of the time it was meaningless. DI didn't stop a character from being comboed, so there were still true combos.

But if a character can do something to stop the combo then it's not a real combo.

The only thing that makes a combo a combo is whether or not it's escapable. If it isn't then it's a combo.

In brawl very little true combos exist simply because attacks do too much knockback and hitstun is too little. So follow-ups are impossible once you hit around 20%.

And yes being hit stunned IS being helpless. But if you are not hitstunned then you are not helpless and therefore you can do something which means it's not a combo.
Now I didn't see the vid of Marth vs Lucas, but from what others are saying Lucas could have gotten out of it.

In this case, it was not a combo and Lucas just messed up.

 

[BentoBox]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhmV7DAMOOY 0:20

 

[NJzFinest]

Now I didn't see the vid of Marth vs Lucas, but from what others are saying Lucas could have gotten out of it.

>____________>

 

[Emblem Lord]

After seeing the vid here is my verdict.

It was indeed, a combo. BUT....For one thing Lucas missed a tech, which allowed Marth to start the fair chain, and secondly I really don't think Lucas was DIing at all. I think that if he had been DIing to the left then Martth couldn't have gotten that dair off at the end.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I don't think DI would have helped avoid the Dair. Also, he wasn't stunned the whole time, he could've dodge the second Fair. Instead of dodging he used his second jump and got combo'd to death.

 

[Shmooguy]

btw i'm doing some stat tests but im not going to make as many as i did for SSBM, what stat lists would you guys like to see first after I finish my current ones.

All frame data:
-IASA frames
-Startup/hit/recovery frames for attacks, rolls, spot dodges, grabs, throws (also landing lag for aerial moves)
-Where the sweetspot is for every attack
-% damage range for every attack
-% each move kills at

Also does DI have more/less of an effect than before? We might discover something different about DI later on but until then this would be interesting to know.

That's a lot, just do whatever you can/have time for.

 

[Shmooguy]

Double post.

 

[Mew2King]

sorry but there's no way im doing that, at least not any time soon. it would take too long, and be too frusturating. ill do some marth ditto FD % KO data soon though to give ppl an idea of relative power of moves though.

 

[User33]

This thread shows that the problem of shield grab spamming is solved

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=145474

I'm sure discoveries like this will continue to be made.

 

[Emblem Lord]

What?

All this does is make defensive play even more busted.

Also this was discovered already awhile back.

 

[thumbswayup]

M2k hates brawl, Azen finds it fun. who to believe?

 

[KMB23]

M2k hates brawl, Azen finds it fun. who to believe?

I always thought azen was cool.

 

[icraq]

how to fight shield campers with marth:
sh forward, fair immediately, di back. marth slides like a ***** when he lands, just do a tiny bit of a walk backwards, maybe half a step, and he'll slide even further. plus, no lag when you land after that, so follow up with a fsmash if they grab (if you can reach) or run in for a grab of your own. poke would work good, too, since it moves marth forward, you can put pressure on the shield.

i can put a video up of this tonight. i did a thread on it in the brawl discussion board, but it doesn't show a lot of uses like this in it, just the slides.

 

[NJzFinest]

how to fight shield campers with marth:
sh forward, fair immediately, di back. marth slides like a ***** when he lands, just do a tiny bit of a walk backwards, maybe half a step, and he'll slide even further. plus, no lag when you land after that, so follow up with a fsmash if they grab (if you can reach) or run in for a grab of your own. poke would work good, too, since it moves marth forward, you can put pressure on the shield.

So in other words, play Marth the way people do in Melee.

i can put a video up of this tonight. i did a thread on it in the brawl discussion board, but it doesn't show a lot of uses like this in it, just the slides.

No need bro.

 

[Tristan_win]

Good, the king is back.

Thank you for all the information, M2k.

Can't wait to see more videos of you in action once brawl finally comes to America.

 

[icraq]

So in other words, play Marth the way people do in Melee.

No need bro.

mostly. but instead of using an air dodge to waveland, just use DI in the air to waveland.