M2K stuff about Marth (big update first post)

[Hylian]

grapple attack, in the air. All the grapples in brawl have 0 lag upon landing, and Samus' comes out quite fast and as a pretty decent range, and deals damage too.

This. The term was coined by 56K..and I like it. Samus's grapple is so good in the air, it's like an amazing arieal...so z air .


It is practically the best move in the game and shuts down all of marth's approach options.

 

[Emblem Lord]

How so?

I really don't think it does.

Insta-airdodge is just too good IMO.

Besides how is the stun time on the attack?

Couldn't Marth just and shield and then just attack.

You should consider all variables before saying a character is shut down.

Especially a character that **** near everyone agrees will be top tier.

 

[Hylian]

How so?

I really don't think it does.

Insta-airdodge is just too good IMO.

Besides how is the stun time on the attack?

Couldn't Marth just and shield and then just attack.

You should consider all variables before saying a character is shut down.

Especially a character that **** near everyone agrees will be top tier.

I have. I also have videos of me shutting down good marths. The marth that I play with almost always used to beat me, and when I started doing this, he only beat me once. We have the matches recorded and we have tested everything marth can do. Let me go copy and paste what I have posted on the samus forums.


I am not just saying this. I have played brawl for many many hours. If you don't believe me go to the youtube account KylianXelKythe and look at the 106 videos of us playing. And we have more recorded to be uploaded soon. The videos I have up now I am not playing like I should against marth, so he beats me 4/5 matches. But the new ones he only beats me once.


Let me go get the post.

 

[Hylian]

Here:


Let me give you a layout of how hard it is for marth to approach.


1: Marth jumps at Samus with his standard fair approach. Samus can just jump backwards and zair and if the tip hits marth will be knocked back and if any other part hits marth will be stunned long enough for samus to just jump again preparing for another zair.

2. Marth can counter. If you just move backwards when he counters your zair its a free dash attack or grab.

3. Marth can airdodge. This is the hardest to counter. But Samus can. Samus needs to zair to force the airdodge, then grapple immediatly when she hits the ground and she will grab marth right when he lands.

4. Marth cannot approach with full hops because samus's uair and up B are amazing and marth is weak from below.

5. Samus's jab reset owns marth. She can jab him before his fair comes out, then ftilt or fsmash.

6. Samus can combo marth better then marth can combo samus.

7. Samus can double homing missile and marth can't just swipe them away.

8. Samus's Dtilt outranges all of marths moves.

9. Samus can gimp marths recovery with nair/dair/ homing missile to run off grapple. If he doesnt have his second jump and you zair him he dies.



So basically, on stages where you can keep marth a grapple distance away, you will own them. If they do manage to get inside your grapple range, remember the amazing shield parry in this game. That mixed with samus's jab game makes it hard to do things to her without being interupted. DO NOT LET MARTH FAIR YOU. You will be destroyed if you let the marth fair you alot. Also, stay on the stage aside from edgeguarding. Marth is also very hard to kill with samus. I reccommend using zair to chargeshot then edgeguard. Also, dtilt kills now.

On smaller stages where you cannot zair easily, marth destroys samus because of his fair combos and his ability to keep her above him.


Also, Remember that the zair has 0 lag.

I have tested all of this out and played tons of marth vs samus.


Edit: Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zxz8irL2e4

It is one of my older videos from last week so I hadent realized how amazing zair is, but when I do use it notice how much it stuns and how amazing it is. Best move in this game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Anyway what's to stop Marth from just walking up to her and using shield approaching?

I don't think one move is gonna help her dominate a character that got nerfed way less then her.

Her d-tilt outranges his d-tilt? I doubt it but ok. Not his Shield breaker though. I seriously don't think this is the case.

Samus does have some combos with her dair to bair and her fair. But Marth has his dancing blade and his d-tilt which combos into itself or other stuff.

Also about the airdodge approach. You telling me Marth can't just roll when he hits the ground to avoid being grabbed?

Honestly I need to see vids of you using it consistently.

Marth can still fair missiles. Why did you say he can't?

Also, Samus can't kill for ****.

 

[Hylian]

Anyway what's to stop Marth from just walking up to her and using shield approaching?

I don't think one move is gonna help her dominate a character that got nerfed way less then her.

Her d-tilt outranges his d-tilt? I doubt it but ok. Not his Shield breaker though. I seriously don't think this is the case.

Samus does have some combos with her dair to bair and her fair. But Marth has his dancing blade and his d-tilt which combos into itself or other stuff.

Also about the airdodge approach. You telling me Marth can't just roll when he hits the ground to avoid being grabbed?

Honestly I need to see vids of you using it consistently.

Marth can still fair missiles. Why did you say he can't?

Also, Samus can't kill for ****.

I didn't say he can't fair missiles. I said if the samus double homing missiles he cant stand in the same spot and just hit A. One of the missiles will hit him.

I am not sure about the shield breaker.


As far as I can tell with the airdodge approach, he couldn't roll before I grabbed him. And even if he could whats to stop me from just running forward when he airdodges?


And she can gimp off the stage with the grapple. Also, you don't need to be able to kill well if you don't get hit.


I will have videos. I already have a ton of videos of my samus if you want to see it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean honestly...

Marth is just better then Samus. So I find it hard to believe that she could shut him down.

Marth's d-tilt is pretty much equal to Samus. I'm pretty sure about his. Shield breaker definitely outranges d-tilt.

Also, that Marth in that vid wasn't that great TBH. It was ok, considering brawl is a new game and all that.

But really...why didn't he just walk up to you and d-tilt, or grab, or shield to w/e.

It's like whenever he appproached it was fair. Usually when he used dancing blade it was because you were already close to him.

 

[Hylian]

I mean honestly...

Marth is just better then Samus. So I find it hard to believe that she could shut him down.

Marth's d-tilt is pretty much equal to Samus. I'm pretty sure about his. Shield breaker definitely outranges d-tilt.

Also, that Marth in that vid wasn't that great TBH. It was ok, considering brawl is a new game and all that.

But really...why didn't he just walk up to you and d-tilt, or grab, or shield to w/e.

It's like whenever he appproached it was fair. Usually when he used dancing blade it was because you were already close to him.

You can't just walk up to samus. You will get zaired. Her zair is twice as long as marths shieldbreaker. If you shield, you will get grabbed because the zair has 0 lag. So samus can zair to grapple and make shielding useless. If you spotdodge, samus just won't grab after the zair, and punish your spotdodge.


Look, I understand why you are skepticle. Samus has been nurfed in a ton of ways. Marth is pretty much the same with some things better some worse. Marth > Samus in Melee. So why the **** would samus do good against marth in brawl?

I am just telling you my experiences with the match-up. I am giving you warning. As far as I can tell, I am the only samus player in brawl so far to do this. Marth has almost 0 options when approaching samus. Anything he can do is easily countered. Once marth can touch samus, he destroys her. But don't forget about up-B out of shield.

I will show you the matches when they are uploaded. Feel free to think what you want, I am just presenting the information to you.


Also, that marth player got 1st in texas's first brawl tournament lol.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Upload the vids. I'll anaylze those and then tell you what I think.

Him winning that tourney doesn't mean anything. The game has only been out a few weeks.

Marth is good and very easy to play. Alot of Marths are doing well at early Brawl tournies.

Hell maybe it is a counter match-up for Marth.

But Marth is still a better character.

*shrugs

 

[Hylian]

Upload the vids. I'll anaylze those and then tell you what I think.

Him winning that tourney doesn't mean anything. The game has only been out a few weeks.

Marth is good and very easy to play. Alot of Marths are doing well at early Brawl tournies.

Hell maybe it is a counter match-up for Marth.

But Marth is still a better character.

*shrugs

Oh I agree with you there. I also think Marth is a better character.


I just think samus has an advantage vs him.

 

[Dan2]

Uh, I just logged a lot of the vids of Kal and Hylian into the Marth video thread. They should be on the last page if SNBM hasn't gotten around to copying them into page 1...

The marth looks good to me, but I didn't watch all of the vids.

 

[Mr.C]

It is practically the best move in the game and shuts down all of marth's approach options.

But then you realize what Marth is "suppose" to do. Stay in tippers range to avoid grabs, and keep up fair pressure until your opponent makes a mistake then you follow up. Just like what he is suppose to do in Melee to avoid shl spam, missle spam etc. lol

Pretty much the same exact thing as Melee, when Marth is close he is a beast when Marth is far away he is at a disadvantage. All Marth players know this and thats why all Marth players try and stay within Fair, fsmash range lol.

Also, that marth player got 1st in texas's first brawl tournament lol.

That Marth is Kal, lol. He makes so so so many amateur mistakes. Regardless of him getting first place or whatever he is still an unexperienced player. I think the last 10 times I've played him they were all 3-4 stocks lol. In Melee at least. He is decent, but he makes unexperienced decisions, you can even tell in Brawl after every aerial he finishes with a fsmash lol....when he can connect with a fair, try to hit again being safely spaced....wait until you waste your jump etc. But he doesn't he aerials fsmash after every aerial. lol

 

[Mew2King]

emblem lord marth isn't as good as you're saying he is, he's the easiest characters to beat bad people with, but once people learn that his fair strings do NOT combo and start projectile and shield grab camping him (and roll backwards or something safe if they miss) he won't be as good. We already know for the most part stuff Marth can do because of similarities to Brawl, but compared to other characters, it is unlikely that his metagame will improve as much as the other characters within the next few years, and he already has camping weaknesses. You haven't fought anybody good yet, you're making the same fast conclusions I was making when I got the game for the first few days, then I played Azen and learned differently.

 

[Black_jo]

emblem lord marth isn't as good as you're saying he is, he's the easiest characters to beat bad people with, but once people learn that his fair strings do NOT combo and start projectile and shield grab camping him (and roll backwards or something safe if they miss) he won't be as good. We already know for the most part stuff Marth can do because of similarities to Brawl, but compared to other characters, it is unlikely that his metagame will improve as much as the other characters within the next few years, and he already has camping weaknesses. You haven't fought anybody good yet, you're making the same fast conclusions I was making when I got the game for the first few days, then I played Azen and learned differently.

have you recorded some brawl match with azen's Marth? would be great

 

[K1T3]

Smashboards is dumb... it said it hadn't posted this... blah

 

[K1T3]

For some reason when I think of M2K I think of Ochi from Hikaru no Go

MrC are you getting brawl the day it comes out/ participating in a gamestop tourney?

I'ma play at the Gamestop nonsense... he's pretty easy to play from the start and I've had a much easier time moving around with him and being able to get final smashes since they'll be on...

Azen is too good and will beast will any character though...

 

[Mr.C]

For some reason when I think of M2K I think of Ochi from Hikaru no Go

MrC are you getting brawl the day it comes out/ participating in a gamestop tourney?

I'ma play at the Gamestop nonsense... he's pretty easy to play from the start and I've had a much easier time moving around with him and being able to get final smashes since they'll be on...

Azen is too good and will beast will any character though...

Yeah, I'm getting the game the day it comes out, already have tho ho pre ordered lol. But nah I'm not going to waste time going to a Gamestop tourney... when I can be in my house testing characters move sets, levels etc lol

I don't even have a wireless router so I might not even be playing online for a lil or until I figure dat shiz out.

 

[K1T3]

Yeah, I'm getting the game the day it comes out, already have tho ho pre ordered lol. But nah I'm not going to waste time going to a Gamestop tourney... when I can be in my house testing characters move sets, levels etc lol

I don't even have a wireless router so I might not even be playing online for a lil or until I figure dat shiz out.

The tourney is right before the midnight release else I wouldn't be there either =P So no time gets wasted =)
I have a feeling I'm gonna fail my classes though as it comes out...

I don't think wireless even works that well for it.... I'm planning on just buying an adapter so I can directly connect my cable connection so I have good speed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mew2king: I'll tell you what I told you on AIM.

LOL. Wut is a combo? That's my mentality in Brawl. I play mad safe and mad campy. Whenever I SH fair I DI back and then if you are close I airdodge on the way down to avoid retaliation.

I use d-tilt chains and dancing blade for damage. That's it. Projectile spamming?

Rofl. So many ways to deal with projectiles in this game.

For item-type projectiles just dash attack or insta airdodge and you will catch them.

For arrows just crouch and spam d-tilt. You will move forward while using d-tilt. For Din's fire just airdodge.

An all purpose solution is shield dash shield dash rinse repeat.

If people are shield grabbing your fairs then stay on the ground. Marth's ground game is solid thanks to d-tilt, neutral B, all his smashes, and dancing blade.

A fully spaced d-tilt is virtually impossible to punish since Marth can just roll if it's shielded.

Fast conclusions? What conclusions? That he is one of the best? He is.

I never said he is THE best. Just said that is what alot of people think. I personally don't think that. I think Olimar beats him out. Maybe G&W and Pit too. But I still think he is top tier and you agreed with that when were talking on AIM.

From the moment I first saw a match vid on youtube of brawl I knew what the Brawl Metagame would be about.

Defensive play, off stage gimps, a **** load of camping, projectile whoring, and spacing.

Marth can camp well and he can get past cmaping well.

You overexaggerate because you feel like Marth is limited and because you tend to overexaggerate anyway. Marth is still a beast.

You are like the only high level smasher who is saying other wise.

 

[Warlock*G]

I never said he is THE best. Just said that is what alot of people think. I personally don't think that. I think Olimar beats him out. Maybe G&W and Pit too. But I still think he is top tier and you agreed with that when were talking on AIM.

Could the game be balanced after all? Good, now *that* is music to my ears. Unless I'm the one jumping to conclusions here...

But hey, Emblem Lord, you're the 2nd person along with Mew2King to imply that Marth isn't overpowered... and since you both are credible (*and* have the game ), that's niiiice.

Now if only March 9th could come a little quicker...

Here's a song for the sake of nothing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVH2F-MU8sU

 

[Emblem Lord]

Brawl is not balanced.

This game belongs to Metaknight, Marth, Olimar, Pit, G&W, and Toon Link.

They are all overpowered in some way or another.

 

[Hydde]

I understand him tho... its not easy just to cut off the melee roots. Im already preparing for it.... but him as a hardcore champion must be having real issues dealing with the dumbness of brawl. In fact we all have some remorse when looking back at melee and think about how much we will miss the old good days of crazy offense and unreal combos.


But well... time goes on and we need to move out...

 

[Irow]

Wow, Emblem Lord, I was actually typing what you just said. Lol, then the boards decided to be gay and not post.

To give my opinion, I'd have to say that people are just being too stubborn about projectile camping. Seriously, given we got past the gayness of even Falco's lasers, and Samus platform-canceled super missiles - We can get past this. Hell, it might even be easier with the new airdodge.

That's not to say Hylian's zair comments are unfounded. On the contrary, the zair will play a major role in beating people with Samus. It's not as infallible as he is stating however. Marth will always have an approach, even with a full hop - Samus' up-air and up b can both be faired/countered.


This is where we differ on opinion though. I do believe Marth is either the best or, at worst, one of the top three best characters. G&W has a nice beatdown style game play, but he dies really easily. His keyblade is amazing, but his fair is easily punished. Pit has an amazing projectile, while having the ability to break through projectiles himself. His physical game is also great, but it's simply at this point, not as good as Marth's.

Now about Olimar. I haven't researched him nearly as much as Pit and G&W because I actually play them. However, (Call me a tourney ***** or whatever) I'm picking him up. I'm quite sure that Olimar is amazing, but I have my doubts about him in comparison to Marth. I'll see as I watch more videos and have the chance to delve more into the game.

I guarantee if M2K is too lazy to do the things for Brawl like he did for Melee, I will do it. Maybe not frame data, but I will definitely post stratagem and detailed information on the uses of every single move - More than any other board will have. Although, I will only mainly do it for Marth, I'll write general things about the game as well.

 

[Hydde]

Fair enough!!

 

[Warlock*G]

Brawl is not balanced.

This game belongs to Metaknight, Marth, Olimar, Pit, G&W, and Toon Link.

They are all overpowered in some way or another.

Alright, let me rephrase it:

Could Brawl be "not as unbalanced as I first thought"?

Cuz I know it's impossible to really balance a game, and I wasn't waiting for a "truly" balanced game. The only important thing is that tourneys will be a little varied as far as characters go, and not just one or two characters competing all the time.

And Game & Watch? Shocking to me, but hey, it's cool. Have you all seen his awesome taunt?


Edit:

I understand him tho... its not easy just to cut off the melee roots. Im already preparing for it.... but him as a hardcore champion must be having real issues dealing with the dumbness of brawl.

G's list of series that have been dumbed down in the past few years:

1. Thief (The worst dumbing down of those three. Seriously.)
2. The Elder Scrolls (Yep, axes are blunts now, and that's just an example)
3. Smash Bros (no combos tripping dhurrrrr)

Always aiming to please everyone, every gaming company eventually dumbs down its games... because, sadly, that's the most profitable thing to do. It's complexity VS business, baby!

 

[VersatileBJN]

I gotta man crush on Irow.

All he has to say is he thinks Ike is good and then I may turn fruity haha.

No but seriously dude, good ****. A lot of people don't have their mind right in their approach to this game, and it's nice to see you really are putting in effort to shape the community(specifically Marth) right.

I'd say I can't wait to play you, but Jersey vs Cali will probably have unplayable lag.


Emblem-Lord on the other hand. Wuddup playa? I'm from Jersey as well so I hope we can get some games in upon Brawl's American release.

You gonna be on the www.wifiwars.com and www.smashbrawlrankings.com ? I wanna see people with skills in my division.

 

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

i like how i hate that EL is right and i know hes right.

but dont worry EL remember that guy Taj who was beatin people with M2? remember that guy Bum who made DK look decent? Remember that guy Chu who changed the tier list and made everyone realize the the top tiers werent the only ones who are broken?

its people like that, that will make this game just as fun as melee and make it just as competitive.

 

[Warlock*G]

i like how i hate [...]

O_O

does not compute

 

[Irow]

I don't like how people aren't giving Brawl a good chance.

I'm gonna come out and say it. In Melee, for a long time - I was a noob. A big noob. A Giant noob. I thought spin attacking was the best strategy ever. I picked up Marth as my secondary because I've only heard of the series Fire Emblem and was interesting, plus I liked how Marth looked. It was more appealing than Roy's look. He didn't look cool to me. This was odd at the time, because my favorite color is red, and I really like fire. Marth eventually became my main after learning how to counter.

I remembered getting my *** whooped by a really good Samus. Wavedashing, missile canceling, everything. That was under one year ago. I was a casual if you will. After that, I became a competitive person. I wanted to get better, so I did. I started a crew with other people in my city that wanted to get better, and now I run what is quite likely the best group of smashers in my city. (If you'd like to try to prove me wrong, I'd like to prove you wrong. Vallejo, CA anyone?)

While I was a noobish spin attacker, the game was deep. Learning Melee at it's highest level of play made it deeper. However, do you know what made Melee so deep for me? It was the tactics I had to continually develop. It wasn't the waveshine, it wasn't the Ken Combo, it wasn't wavedashing or the L-Cancel. It was the tactical depth of the game.

If you want to get into an argument with me about what I'm about to say, go ahead, I'm not infallible.

Brawl will be just as deep as Melee. Stratagem and tactical play will play an even more important role in Brawl. Technicality will still give you an advantage, but it won't keep the lower end of players down so low. Thinking about all the possible stratagies and counter-strategies will keep us busy, just as much as the thinking about combos and new technical advantages that Melee consisted of.

By the way, if you'd like to IM me. It's Irow Syblane. It's AIM.

 

[Warlock*G]

Brawl will be just as deep as Melee. Stratagem and tactical play will play an even more important role in Brawl. Technicality will still give you an advantage, but it won't keep the lower end of players down so low. Thinking about all the possible stratagies and counter-strategies will keep us busy, just as much as the thinking about combos and new technical advantages that Melee consisted of.

I'm not going to argue with you; I just want to say that I think you *may* be right... and I wish I could be as optimistic as you.

 

[Mew2King]

edit - gotta love crashboards -.-

 

[Mew2King]

2 new things about marth

1) after edge hogging (make sure you grab the ledge so you use invincibility frames just before they touch you so that you don't have to roll, as rolling won't edge hog anymore), and you see them land on the stage, your best option is to Up B them (other moves work, I often use Nair for damage and easiness, but Up B is stronger for killing them in this situation if you can trick their DI). But most of the time, reverse up B will be better, meaning you should drop from the ledge, then double jump right away so you move onto the stage past them, and before landing do an aerial reverse up B. Basically just edge hog, then ledge drop + double jump reverse up B them.

2) when you're on the ledge, and you wanna press back to let go of the ledge and drop off to double jump Bair them way off, the best thing to do is, right after pressing back (to let go of the ledge), press forward C. This way, you do your Fair move, but by doing this you're horizontal aerial movement speed (and distance) is much greater. Should you not do this, you will fall at a steep angle after letting go of the ledge, so this is very useful. So all you have to do is make sure you Fair (any aerial works, Fair has the shortest total time) so that you move faster horizontally in the air.

 

[Irow]

That's pretty useful, I'll keep that in mind.

 

[metroid1117]

I demand this to be stickied. This contains great information. Thanks, Mew2King.

By the way, how did you do frame testing for aerials? Don't both attacks hit rather than clash?

 

[Mew2King]

@ above poster - yes

 

[Magus420]

You should really just hit up a cheap capture card so you can simply count the frames directly and do it a lot easier and more efficiently. You'd also be able to do things like checking shieldstun/stun/hitlag/landlag/duration/IASA frames/autocancel windows/etc to come up with some effective strategies you may not of stumbled on otherwise.

 

[Mew2King]

magus i like your sig, the best part about it is that, the frame that you grabbed, kashif leant forward REALLY far, but that frame is overwritten with a "being grabbed" frame, so nobody else but me, you, and maybe a few others will get it.

anyway ya, i was thinking maybe you can test frame stuff to get exact measurements on running speed for me magus, and maybe test total times for moves (for marth and DDD at least)

 

[Emblem Lord]

You mean to tell me that it's not obvious that Green Marth was able to grab Blue Marth because he grabbed Blue Marth's arm as it was coming it for a d-tilt, but you don't see the arm stretch since when it is suppossed to come out Blue Marth is already grabbed?

I mean..it's in FRIGGIN SLOW MOTION!!!

It's pretty hard to miss.

Anyway..Jason...check this out now...http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=148271

And James..stop trolling the Marth boards...go back to the Jiggz forums!!!!

 

[Magus420]

I don't own a Wii or the game. I was suggesting you get a capture card and do that stuff not me Zimms =P

I think the fact that he was on a slope also helped some to put his arm up a bit higher and meet my grab height at a further distance.

Also, I played a match with Jiggs actually. I u-air->u-tilt->rest "combo'd" Lucas' Sheik with like 5-10 damage, and he didn't even get knocked back far enough to go off camera let alone actually die with ~60-70%, and then shortly afterwards I got fully charge u-smashed and died.

I then proceeded to select a different character.

 

[AcidJazz]

I've got a good use for that up smash, although it really takes the opponent to really screw up, but it's good to know either way. This kind of holds true for every character. Basically if you ever know the character is going to have open frames but is far away, don't forget that you can up smash out of a dash. When a player is forced to up B on to the stage rather than the ledge, if you can make it to where they are before their lag is finished, you can dash and immediately up smash them. This makes me hate that pause on the ledge so much more because it takes a lot of opportunities away.

This probably doesn't happen too often in higher level players, but it's still something that's definitely useful when the time does come up. I find it really useful for fox