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M2K stuff about Marth (big update first post)
- Thread starter Mew2King
- Start date
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maximus omega
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2006
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- 49
Like in melee u could easily grab into combos and do fairs all day but now in brawl its mostly all about mind games and spacing.
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
m2k when can i come over! i migfht have a ride soon
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Just decided to post this here since everyone reads this thread.
Ok, time for some patented Emblem Lord strats.
Let me talk about Marth's Fair first. Comes out on frame 5. Quite fast and has good priority since Marth uses a sword. Marth can do two in one SH. Marth has alot of tricks with his SH Fair. Marth can DI back while fairing for spacing and to camp. So SH Fair DI back then Fair again while falling. Also Marth recovers very quickly from his fair so he can do other things as well like SH Fair to Dancing Blade if you want to be aggressive. He can be very tricky and defensive by doing SH Fair to airdodge. Then when you land you can do whatever you want. I would usually go with Dancing Blade, Dolphin Slash or just roll away. A SH Fair on the way down can lead to a free Dancing Blade at low percents.
Dancing Blade is ridiculous now. Comes out on frame 4. Yeah, you read that correctly. Frame 4. Stupid fast. It's a natural combo. The standard Forward BBBB combo is the most reliable. Does 16% damage. As much as Ike's AAA combo. Another decent one is Forward BBB Down B. This ends it with the multi stabs. That combo is about 22%. But it can be DIed out of, especially at higher percents. So for the most part stick to the standard BBBB string.
Marth's D-tilt is still amazing. On hit it can lead to another d-tilt, a D-smash, or Dancing Blade. This thing has IASA frames on it. And using it in rapid succession moves Marth forward, so it makes a good poking/pressure tool. And thanks to the IASA frames it's virtually impossible to punish even if someone perfect shields it. If it's shielded just roll away or spot dodge to avoid retaliation. This thing is amazing. And with this and Marth's Dancing Blade His ground game is awesome, but he ahs a few other things that make his ground game ridiculous as well.
Marth's U-smash is awesome now. A non tipper hit has a suction effect that brings an opponent upwards right into Marth's sword. It's pretty cool. All of Marth's smashes are great actually. Running U-smash is a good way to get a surprise kill in and catch your oppponent off guard.
Marth's Dolphin Slash is nuts. Activates on frame 1 and it invincible for the first 5 frames. SHORYUKEN!!!! The recovery time isn't long at all when he lands and it has decent killing power.
Speaking of killing power, Marth has the most kill options out of everyone in the entire game.
He can kill with:
Tippered F-smash around 80%
Non-tippered F-smash around 140%
Tippered U-smash around 115%
Non-Tippered U-Smash around 125%
Tippered D-smash around 105%
Non-Tippered D-smash around 125%
Tippered Uair around 120%
Non-Tippered Uair around 165%
Tippered Fair around 140%
Non-Tippered Fair around 190%
Tippered Dair...it's a ****ing spike. So...I'm guessing it can kill at relatively low percents.
Non-Tippered Dair around 190%, but this is an educated guess.
Tippered Bair around 135%
Non-Tippered Bair around 190%
Tippered F-tilt around 155%
Non-Tippered Fair...Very high. Didn't kill at 190%, so it's not worth mentioning.
Tippered U-tilt around 125%
Non-Tippered U-tilt around 135%
Tippered Nair around 130%
Non-Tippered Nair...not worth mentioning. Very high percent.
Dolphin Slash around 140%
Dancing Blade now has tipper and non tipper hits unlike Melee. Tipper hits do more knockback. So final tipper hits of the dancing blade can kill aroun 115% Non-tipper hits kill around 150%-160%.
So looking at this we can see that once an opponent hits about 80 percent they are in the danger zone. Marth can kill alot sooner then 99% of the cast. The key is just to have good spacing so you hit with the tip of the sword. But spacing is a basic component of a good Marth so dedicated Marth players shouldn't have any trouble getting those early kills. Only Luigi with his own Shoryuken beats him out with early kills, since that can kill around 50%. But Marth can gimp recoveries better than he can. Also be aware that Marth's aerials will kill sooner then the percentages I listed since he will usually use them to gimp recoveries which means they will be closer to the edges of the screen, so there will be less distance to cover before dying. My percentages were tested on Mario on Final Destination with him at the center of the stage.
Also here are some random tips.
Gimp recoveries with Marth plz. Just run off and Fair or Bair them. At the very least it will harass them. If they are low on the screen and they airdodge then they are as good as dead.
If they are high then they will most likely air dodge, but you will recover quickly and then you can still attempt to hit them. Make sure to DI back as you are fairing, so you have a better chance of hitting them when they come out of their airdodge.
A nice little spacing trick is to do a quick dash to forward B. So if someone dashes at you, just dash back from the spot you were in. They will attack air then you can use Dancing Blade to score some good easy damage. Dash to Dancing Blade is one of my staple strats. It's very solid. Combining Marth's quick mobility with one of his best moves for a great offensive/defensive/space controlling tactic.
Marth's grabs aren't too crazy although Marth can do F-throw to F-smash at 0 if they don't DI. F-throw and D-throw are the throws of choice. Switch between them to mess with DI. At lower percents you may be able to follow-up with another grab or a Dancing Blade combo.
Now I'll list some basic combos.
D-tilt to D-tilt: Does about 18%. Works from about 0% to 40%.
Non-tippered Fair to Dancing Blade: Does about 28% to 33% depending on the DB combo you decide to do. Works from about 0% to 20%.
D-tilt to D-smash: Does about 26%. You have to be very close when you hit with the d-tilt and cancel ASAP into the D-smash. Works from 0% to 40%.
Non-tippered Fair to F-smash: Does about 24%. 29% if the F-smash is a tipper. You have to be close and this only works at very low percents. 0% to 15%.
Tippered Uair to U-tilt: Does about 22% Works from 0% to 15%.
Tippered Uair to F-smash: Non-tippered F-smash will do 27% Tippered F-smash will do 32%. Works from 0% to 15%.
Tippered Uair to U-smash: Does about 30%. Works from 0% to 15%.
Dancing Blade: BEST COMBO FOR MARTH!!!!!! Most reliable. Works at any percent. Does 16% to 23% depending on how you end it and what attacks you use.
D-tilt to Dancing Blade: Does about 28% to 33%. Somewhat more reliable then the others since it works from about 0% to around 40%
D-tilt to Grab: Not a real combo. Just a **** good mix-up tool to use when D-tilt no longer combos. Use this to make them fear shielding after a d-tilt on hit then you can do a Dancing Blade after a d-tilt on hit and it no longer combos or run into U-smash.
Ok, that pretty much wraps it up.
Also the IASA frames on Marth's D-tilt is when he pulls his arm back. Once he does that you cancel into anything.
Ok, time for some patented Emblem Lord strats.
Let me talk about Marth's Fair first. Comes out on frame 5. Quite fast and has good priority since Marth uses a sword. Marth can do two in one SH. Marth has alot of tricks with his SH Fair. Marth can DI back while fairing for spacing and to camp. So SH Fair DI back then Fair again while falling. Also Marth recovers very quickly from his fair so he can do other things as well like SH Fair to Dancing Blade if you want to be aggressive. He can be very tricky and defensive by doing SH Fair to airdodge. Then when you land you can do whatever you want. I would usually go with Dancing Blade, Dolphin Slash or just roll away. A SH Fair on the way down can lead to a free Dancing Blade at low percents.
Dancing Blade is ridiculous now. Comes out on frame 4. Yeah, you read that correctly. Frame 4. Stupid fast. It's a natural combo. The standard Forward BBBB combo is the most reliable. Does 16% damage. As much as Ike's AAA combo. Another decent one is Forward BBB Down B. This ends it with the multi stabs. That combo is about 22%. But it can be DIed out of, especially at higher percents. So for the most part stick to the standard BBBB string.
Marth's D-tilt is still amazing. On hit it can lead to another d-tilt, a D-smash, or Dancing Blade. This thing has IASA frames on it. And using it in rapid succession moves Marth forward, so it makes a good poking/pressure tool. And thanks to the IASA frames it's virtually impossible to punish even if someone perfect shields it. If it's shielded just roll away or spot dodge to avoid retaliation. This thing is amazing. And with this and Marth's Dancing Blade His ground game is awesome, but he ahs a few other things that make his ground game ridiculous as well.
Marth's U-smash is awesome now. A non tipper hit has a suction effect that brings an opponent upwards right into Marth's sword. It's pretty cool. All of Marth's smashes are great actually. Running U-smash is a good way to get a surprise kill in and catch your oppponent off guard.
Marth's Dolphin Slash is nuts. Activates on frame 1 and it invincible for the first 5 frames. SHORYUKEN!!!! The recovery time isn't long at all when he lands and it has decent killing power.
Speaking of killing power, Marth has the most kill options out of everyone in the entire game.
He can kill with:
Tippered F-smash around 80%
Non-tippered F-smash around 140%
Tippered U-smash around 115%
Non-Tippered U-Smash around 125%
Tippered D-smash around 105%
Non-Tippered D-smash around 125%
Tippered Uair around 120%
Non-Tippered Uair around 165%
Tippered Fair around 140%
Non-Tippered Fair around 190%
Tippered Dair...it's a ****ing spike. So...I'm guessing it can kill at relatively low percents.
Non-Tippered Dair around 190%, but this is an educated guess.
Tippered Bair around 135%
Non-Tippered Bair around 190%
Tippered F-tilt around 155%
Non-Tippered Fair...Very high. Didn't kill at 190%, so it's not worth mentioning.
Tippered U-tilt around 125%
Non-Tippered U-tilt around 135%
Tippered Nair around 130%
Non-Tippered Nair...not worth mentioning. Very high percent.
Dolphin Slash around 140%
Dancing Blade now has tipper and non tipper hits unlike Melee. Tipper hits do more knockback. So final tipper hits of the dancing blade can kill aroun 115% Non-tipper hits kill around 150%-160%.
So looking at this we can see that once an opponent hits about 80 percent they are in the danger zone. Marth can kill alot sooner then 99% of the cast. The key is just to have good spacing so you hit with the tip of the sword. But spacing is a basic component of a good Marth so dedicated Marth players shouldn't have any trouble getting those early kills. Only Luigi with his own Shoryuken beats him out with early kills, since that can kill around 50%. But Marth can gimp recoveries better than he can. Also be aware that Marth's aerials will kill sooner then the percentages I listed since he will usually use them to gimp recoveries which means they will be closer to the edges of the screen, so there will be less distance to cover before dying. My percentages were tested on Mario on Final Destination with him at the center of the stage.
Also here are some random tips.
Gimp recoveries with Marth plz. Just run off and Fair or Bair them. At the very least it will harass them. If they are low on the screen and they airdodge then they are as good as dead.
If they are high then they will most likely air dodge, but you will recover quickly and then you can still attempt to hit them. Make sure to DI back as you are fairing, so you have a better chance of hitting them when they come out of their airdodge.
A nice little spacing trick is to do a quick dash to forward B. So if someone dashes at you, just dash back from the spot you were in. They will attack air then you can use Dancing Blade to score some good easy damage. Dash to Dancing Blade is one of my staple strats. It's very solid. Combining Marth's quick mobility with one of his best moves for a great offensive/defensive/space controlling tactic.
Marth's grabs aren't too crazy although Marth can do F-throw to F-smash at 0 if they don't DI. F-throw and D-throw are the throws of choice. Switch between them to mess with DI. At lower percents you may be able to follow-up with another grab or a Dancing Blade combo.
Now I'll list some basic combos.
D-tilt to D-tilt: Does about 18%. Works from about 0% to 40%.
Non-tippered Fair to Dancing Blade: Does about 28% to 33% depending on the DB combo you decide to do. Works from about 0% to 20%.
D-tilt to D-smash: Does about 26%. You have to be very close when you hit with the d-tilt and cancel ASAP into the D-smash. Works from 0% to 40%.
Non-tippered Fair to F-smash: Does about 24%. 29% if the F-smash is a tipper. You have to be close and this only works at very low percents. 0% to 15%.
Tippered Uair to U-tilt: Does about 22% Works from 0% to 15%.
Tippered Uair to F-smash: Non-tippered F-smash will do 27% Tippered F-smash will do 32%. Works from 0% to 15%.
Tippered Uair to U-smash: Does about 30%. Works from 0% to 15%.
Dancing Blade: BEST COMBO FOR MARTH!!!!!! Most reliable. Works at any percent. Does 16% to 23% depending on how you end it and what attacks you use.
D-tilt to Dancing Blade: Does about 28% to 33%. Somewhat more reliable then the others since it works from about 0% to around 40%
D-tilt to Grab: Not a real combo. Just a **** good mix-up tool to use when D-tilt no longer combos. Use this to make them fear shielding after a d-tilt on hit then you can do a Dancing Blade after a d-tilt on hit and it no longer combos or run into U-smash.
Ok, that pretty much wraps it up.
Also the IASA frames on Marth's D-tilt is when he pulls his arm back. Once he does that you cancel into anything.
Irow
Smash Ace
Good stuff EL.
A comment on dancing blade spacing. If you mix in up and down hits in your dancing blade, they normally have a greater chance to tip with the last hit.
Shameless Self-Promo: Please direct questions to the Q&A, instead of making new threads.
A comment on dancing blade spacing. If you mix in up and down hits in your dancing blade, they normally have a greater chance to tip with the last hit.
Shameless Self-Promo: Please direct questions to the Q&A, instead of making new threads.
Shinku
Smash Champion
pretty cool stuff Emblem lord. now i just need to see it in action lol
Skazryk
Smash Apprentice
i wish i could focus as much as you apparently can.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
To M2K:
I wanted to talk to you about this since I figure you'd already have tested it, but you're not on AIM, so I decided to post in your thread lol.
Obviously you know that the use of moves in succession lowers the damage dealt. If you use the same move over and over, the damage will decrease, down to a minimum of just under half the damage dealt from the first attack.
The really useful thing about this, however, is that knockback ALSO gets decreased. I read this somewhere in a thread in General Brawl Discussion...But knockback hadn't been tested. I tested it, and knockback does indeed decrease with the use of moves in succession...Seems like Marth could abuse the **** out of this.
I tested reducing the damage and knockback of my Fair to its minimum, and Fair comboing all of a sudden became a lot easier. Of course, the damage is also reduced, so you may just be better off not reducing the damage and knockback, but just normally fair. However, Fair to Fsmash is a LOT easier to get off, since the knockback of the fair is greatly reduced.
Just wondering if you've looked into this at all.
I wanted to talk to you about this since I figure you'd already have tested it, but you're not on AIM, so I decided to post in your thread lol.
Obviously you know that the use of moves in succession lowers the damage dealt. If you use the same move over and over, the damage will decrease, down to a minimum of just under half the damage dealt from the first attack.
The really useful thing about this, however, is that knockback ALSO gets decreased. I read this somewhere in a thread in General Brawl Discussion...But knockback hadn't been tested. I tested it, and knockback does indeed decrease with the use of moves in succession...Seems like Marth could abuse the **** out of this.
I tested reducing the damage and knockback of my Fair to its minimum, and Fair comboing all of a sudden became a lot easier. Of course, the damage is also reduced, so you may just be better off not reducing the damage and knockback, but just normally fair. However, Fair to Fsmash is a LOT easier to get off, since the knockback of the fair is greatly reduced.
Just wondering if you've looked into this at all.
Irow
Smash Ace
I thought of that a really long time ago, and I posted that when M2K said that attack deteriation ***** Marth.
A nair has the same properties of chaining at weakened knockback.
A nair has the same properties of chaining at weakened knockback.
Yojimbo
Smash Journeyman
Good helpful analysis, M2K. I find myself using his Forward B much more now. But the timing is quicker and I was adjusted to slower timing so I'm still getting the hang of it. Good read.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Irow- I'm not sure what you're talking about with the nairs. Explain please?
Irow
Smash Ace
At its most weakened state, you can chain 1 or 2 nairs together. Most people don't expect the second nair, because normally nair has amazing knockback. It's a good surprise, and helps set up for positioning.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Can you Fsmash after the Nair?
Irow
Smash Ace
I haven't tried that. I don't think so because nair sends at an upward diagonal. Normally if my nair is weak enough I try to mix in a tipped fair to really set up for an aggresive edgeguard.
I really need to use his bair and uair more though, his bair off the edge especially.
Fsmash I really only use when I feel lucky with the tip or if they're at high percents. Learning where the tip is hard like hell.
I really need to use his bair and uair more though, his bair off the edge especially.
Fsmash I really only use when I feel lucky with the tip or if they're at high percents. Learning where the tip is hard like hell.
cheifrocka
Smash Apprentice
i'm not a fan of bair because of it's weird range. i prefer to just turn around and use more fairs. not that i never use it, i just don't think it will ever be a big part of my game.
Bug
Smash Rookie
Chasing characters with bair is very useful. I find that with the new dair being harder to spike with, and with the ridiculous vertical recovery of a lot of characters, hitting them with a bair to die the side edge of the screen to be very helpful.
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
Azen *****. m2k see you at spoc V
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
greaat info. i cant beleive u live in NJ. man i wanan play you. what do pple think of marth dittos now. spamz t3h fair?
Irow
Smash Ace
Marth dittoes are incredably stupid. Its like trying to fight a mirror.
m2k = Turtle 
Show me marth stuff in brawl m2k >_> I wanna copy your marth like LK did ... I think?
Uhhh.....
HIIII mootooking
Show me marth stuff in brawl m2k >_> I wanna copy your marth like LK did ... I think?
Uhhh.....
HIIII mootooking
takeurlife2
Smash Ace
pit is a marth killer this time, i recommend studying him a tad.
his arrows, when tilted and spammed correctly, stack damage better than falco's laser used to.
not to mention his endless amount of jumps.
the only weakness i have found in his recovery is that if he is touched at all during his up B then he is left helpless.
im making an anti-pit(marth) guide soon, and i would always appreciate some professional input.
his arrows, when tilted and spammed correctly, stack damage better than falco's laser used to.
not to mention his endless amount of jumps.
the only weakness i have found in his recovery is that if he is touched at all during his up B then he is left helpless.
im making an anti-pit(marth) guide soon, and i would always appreciate some professional input.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
- Messages
- 9,720
- Location
- Scotch Plains, NJ
- NNID
- ShinEmblemLord
- 3DS FC
- 3926-6895-0574
- Switch FC
- SW-0793-4091-6136
Pit is so not a Marth killer.
Only thing Pit has over Marth in this match is arrows and better recovery.
Marth is faster, stronger, heavier, more combos, more kill options, better out of shield game, better approach and has more range.
Just plain better. Arrows are annoying, but once you get past that, Pit doesn't have enough to put this match-up in his advantage.
I give it to Marth. 60/40 his advantage.
Only thing Pit has over Marth in this match is arrows and better recovery.
Marth is faster, stronger, heavier, more combos, more kill options, better out of shield game, better approach and has more range.
Just plain better. Arrows are annoying, but once you get past that, Pit doesn't have enough to put this match-up in his advantage.
I give it to Marth. 60/40 his advantage.
Irow
Smash Ace
Marth is actually lighter than Pit. Pit doesn't really need to approach ever.
Other than that, Marth has the upperhand. The Pit can't do much if you're camping them in their face.
It's pretty hard to kill Pit if you don't actually get a straight-up KO. That's what makes this match-up annoying.
Other than that, Marth has the upperhand. The Pit can't do much if you're camping them in their face.
It's pretty hard to kill Pit if you don't actually get a straight-up KO. That's what makes this match-up annoying.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
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- Location
- Scotch Plains, NJ
- NNID
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- 3926-6895-0574
- Switch FC
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Marth doesn't have an issue when it comes to straight up KOing.
Cohen
Smash Apprentice
Nice post...i love using marth and i hope to get really good with him...(:
and his air game is sooo good in brawl :D
and his air game is sooo good in brawl :D
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
lol he m2222222222222222kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
hes amazing
he'll beat you in brawl or melee
WATCH OUT!
btw m2k wut are you doing on sunday i think i mgiht have a ride over >=P
hes amazing
he'll beat you in brawl or melee
WATCH OUT!
btw m2k wut are you doing on sunday i think i mgiht have a ride over >=P
Black_jo
Smash Journeyman
i clicked on your sig yo and that brings back good memories !
OBanner
Smash Rookie
Man, those combos sound awesome . Too bad I don't have a wii yet T_T
Thanks for all of the great info guys!
One thing I try to utilize a lot from 0% is Marth's d-throw. You can repeat it until 25-30% until they start the fall on the ground. I believe you can do dash>guard>grab though to continue, however you don't need to, as dashing after 25-30% into f B sword dance will allow you to either toss them up or forward off the stage and normal combos or guarding can ensue.
I am not a high level smasher (complete scrub), as I completely despised the previous games, but through boredom I have forced myself to play this game. I have found this to work well and have not seen it broken out of yet. However, if it is to be tech'd out of somehow, I imagine that it's easy to just do the dash>f B dances on the opponent and continuing from there.
Has this worked for anybody else?
One thing I try to utilize a lot from 0% is Marth's d-throw. You can repeat it until 25-30% until they start the fall on the ground. I believe you can do dash>guard>grab though to continue, however you don't need to, as dashing after 25-30% into f B sword dance will allow you to either toss them up or forward off the stage and normal combos or guarding can ensue.
I am not a high level smasher (complete scrub), as I completely despised the previous games, but through boredom I have forced myself to play this game. I have found this to work well and have not seen it broken out of yet. However, if it is to be tech'd out of somehow, I imagine that it's easy to just do the dash>f B dances on the opponent and continuing from there.
Has this worked for anybody else?
Mew2King
King of the Mews
Pit does good vs Marth, Metaknight ***** Pit though.
Shinku
Smash Champion
pikachu can **** marth =p
thumbswayup
Smash Master
pikachu ***** everybody.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
emblem lord no offense you don't know what you're talking about a lot of the time, make a thread for yourself to post in but you always say things which are wrong like how marth can easily kill
when i fight in tourney i either gimp them, tipper them, or they live till high %s. Marth has below average KO ability compared to most characters. Do you know what all 39 characters are capable of for kill moves? Marths tipper F smash has good KO ability, but all 3 of GW smashes kill Marth around like 70ish or so as well. Marth does have trouble killing vs GOOD PEOPLE compared to most characters.
also, if you try to edge guard falco and he's below you, don't do fair if you can help it, do forward B. Same vs Fox. Even if they try to DI upwards they get sent down and will die.
when i fight in tourney i either gimp them, tipper them, or they live till high %s. Marth has below average KO ability compared to most characters. Do you know what all 39 characters are capable of for kill moves? Marths tipper F smash has good KO ability, but all 3 of GW smashes kill Marth around like 70ish or so as well. Marth does have trouble killing vs GOOD PEOPLE compared to most characters.
also, if you try to edge guard falco and he's below you, don't do fair if you can help it, do forward B. Same vs Fox. Even if they try to DI upwards they get sent down and will die.
hario.hige
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2008
- Messages
- 42
Finally someone says it. >.>
But on a Marth-related note, maybe this is me being a scrub, and maybe this has been mentioned in the near-40 odd pages of this thread, but isn't dash-dance to fsmash incredibly broken? I realize that all chars have this ability, but Marth has a relatively good dd compared to the rest of the cast and this makes fsmash tips extremely reliable to the point where even I can tip at least half the time if I'm consciously spacing.
But on a Marth-related note, maybe this is me being a scrub, and maybe this has been mentioned in the near-40 odd pages of this thread, but isn't dash-dance to fsmash incredibly broken? I realize that all chars have this ability, but Marth has a relatively good dd compared to the rest of the cast and this makes fsmash tips extremely reliable to the point where even I can tip at least half the time if I'm consciously spacing.
dr0go
Smash Apprentice
this will help a lot
Mizar
Smash Ace
HAHAHAH oh god, props to the person that turned every M A R T H into Yaoi along with some other words hahahah
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