[M-1/2/10/17/22] Oddworld Mafia -- END! Town won!

[Cello_Marl]

@J:

I do deserve this since I was at the current time the most innactive ;_;

I'll be sure to do my thoughts shortly but i just got home. T.T

You posted this comment after posting every time I talked at you.

My question is: Why did you take the time to scour the thread for every instance of my mentioning you, and then follow it up with a useless one-liner comment, rather than using that time to make a useful post?

According to your later posts, it was intended as a trap. But, if that were the case, why did you wait until someone else (X1 in this case) mentioned the discrepancy between your response to me and to Swiss before you brought it up as a point against Swiss? Why wait 5 hours to bring it up at all, if that was the original point? Why did you quickly backpeddle and claim that you could understand why Swiss voted you (GorditoBoy's explanation), if you supposedly believed the opposite?

 

[Mayling]

@Mayling: I can enjoy myself because I don't have to explain myself to anyone else. (This isn't a reflection on any partners I have had, it's a part of my personality. I don't get along with others)

You claimed I gave mafia an easy way out. How? The bolded portion of my quote was "IF YOU ARE A POWER ROLE, DON'T BE TIMID ABOUT HAMMERING IF YOU WOULD HAVE HAMMERED IN A NORMAL GAME." I clearly say "in a normal game", i.e. play as you would normally. In no way did I EVER suggest, "Hammer with impunity", but that's how you tried to portray it.

This is made worse by the fact that you go on to suggest EXACTLY WHAT I SUGGESTED. Act like the hammering rule doesn't exist.

No, because you said "if you're a power role don't be timid about hammering." and I said that mafia probably have safe claims as PRs, and they say just say "oh I'm a PR and so I hammered." Also, considering the fact that the roles are switched, why would we want PRs hammering instead of VTs? And i only mentioned that we play as normal, because OTHER PEOPLE were continuing to talk about the hammering rule, so I said again "we should play as it doesn't exist." also, if you want to play normal, then why did you say "power roles" and not "everyone play as normal"? you're the one that made that difference, not me.

When you told Summoner that you weren't sure if Swiss was just using colorful language doesn't make any sense. If you were genuinely confused, why did you take the time to write out a large post (#126) which ultimately ended up with a vote on Nick instead of simply asking Swiss if his Cop claim was serious? Why were you questioning why people voted for a claimed cop's guilty result instead of just trying to stop the avalanche that confusing you, especially in light of the fact that a Cop-guilty investigation backed Xastrn lynch might still have happened at that point?

when i made that post, i quoted posts i wanted to respond to from the beginning of the game and thenwhen i went through the post i just repsonded to it bit by bit. that's probably why it's choppy and i voted nicholas. you see a few posts later i take my vote off nicholas, because i was like 'oh i should wait to see what swiss' says

 

[adumbrodeus]

Vote Count

[3] J: Cello_Marl / Swiss / smargaret
[2] Xastrn: SummonerAu / Nicholas1024
[1] Cello_Marl: X1-12
[1] Swiss: Xastrn
[1] smargaret: J
[1] Nicholas1024: Mayling

[0] SummonerAU
[0] X1-12
[0] EdreesesPieces
[0] JoanBud
[0] GorditoBoy69
[0] Mayling

[3] Not Voting: EdreesesPieces / JoanBud / GorditoBoy69

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is Wednesday September 29th at 12:00 PM GTM


I'll be including this for reference in all my votecounts btw

Votecount records:

day 1: 1 2 3 4 5 6

 

[Nicholas1024]

why are you relying on xiivi's meta of cello? cello played a very active scum in Newbie 3.

Xiivi only modded what, half the games on this site? I'd rely on his meta any day (in fact, it's probably more reliable than my personal meta). And Cello had another scumgroup to search for in Newbie 3, so he could still scumhunt like normal.

 

[Cello_Marl]

That sort of discrepancy was unnecessary. It would be like if I said, "Cops should investigate JoanBud" instead of "Townies should investigate JoanBud". I specified PRs because the rules mechanic would only cause them to be timid. It wouldn't affect vanillas. I never said that we should have PRs do the hammering, which would be a requirement for your scum-out scenario. Why would I want to out our PRs for that purpose? How are you getting that from what I said?

2nd part, how would "waiting for what swiss says" stop Xastrn's lynch? You still haven't explained why you didn't ACTIVELY try to stop a lynch you had doubts about; instead, had the lynch gone through, the blame would have been solely on Swiss.

 

[smargaret]

Nicholas, is there a reason other than Swiss's fakeclaim that you're still voting for Xastrn?

 

[Nicholas1024]

Nicholas, is there a reason other than Swiss's fakeclaim that you're still voting for Xastrn?

Ah, I'd forgotten about that. Unvote

 

[Mayling]

2nd part, how would "waiting for what swiss says" stop Xastrn's lynch? You still haven't explained why you didn't ACTIVELY try to stop a lynch you had doubts about; instead, had the lynch gone through, the blame would have been solely on Swiss.

i was the only one saying "there was no n0." o_o everyone else was just co-signing their name to the lynch. i don't see how that's not 'trying to stop the lynch."

 

[Cello_Marl]

@JoanBud: Why has all of your information gathering been reactive instead of proactive? You've not yet once taken the initiative and questioned anyone without them first coming into contact with you, despite the fact that you appear to be wracked with doubt about everyone's alignment. And, you still don't have a single solid read.

Oh, also, post #190...J was CLEARLY twisting what smargaret had said to make it look bad, and even then did a terrible job of it.

Maymay, we've got a scum either way so just chillax.

Bolded portion. J said nothing about this, even though it is the same sentiment that smargaret had; a willingness to lynch a townie in order to out a scum. Why did you give J credit for twisting smargaret's words? Why was it acceptable for J to apply to a double standard?

@smargaret: In the Decisive Games main forum, the number of replies to a thread is a link to the number of posts a person has in that thread, which is in turn a link to those posts.

Who do you think is scummier than me?

Also, I mini-lol'd @ Avy.

@All: Can we go ahead and lynch J, JoanBud or May? I'm bored.

 

[Xastrn]

First of all: Unvote

Dastrn and I talked a bit about what we think, and right now our two major scum candidates are Joan and Gorditoboy. I personally find J a bit scummy as well, for the reasons Cello is posting. However, Dastrn and I don't have an official stance on him yet.

As Dastrn said before, Cello's playstyle right now is very pro-town. He's challenging people with specific questions, giving everyone a lot of material to get reads. Joan's continual opposition to Cello appears very anti-town to us. Not to say that Cello is assuredly town, it's just that right now he's not playing in a way that benefits scum.

In addition, Joan offered a soft "pro-town" read to J, before softly retracting it, simply because he pointed out a discrepancy in one person's post. This action doesn't make J appear town or scum, but simply fuzzes the air around J and draws attention away from him. People are more inclined to pass over other suspicions levied against him. Given that J has suspicion around him already, this could be seen a team play between two scum.

Additionally, Joan was the last to confirm and confirmed after reads were already being made. This is slightly scummy, as he would have needed the time to get a feel for the players so-as to appear as pro-town as possible, rather than joining the game naturally.

Gordito boy's attitude this game has made him suspect to us. He's seemed far to quick to please early on.
For instance:

The way I've seen it so far, Swiss, SummonerAU, smargaret, X1-12, EdreesesPieces, Xastrn, JoanBud, J, Cello_Marl, Nicholas1024, and Mayling have been playing very well. And metaing them just makes em look better. I just don't understand what the mod would make a game filled with town, and no scum.

This is almost sickeningly sweet to everyone in the game, especially that early on. This pattern has been followed throughout the game, particularly towards us, with Swiss's wagoning gambit.

Since then, gordito has tied himself to Cello's hip, which would seem like a pro-town move, given Cello's already very pro-town play. But then he said the following:

Cello's a strong player. I think he'd be good to have around, and I think any doc would be a smart doc to protect em.

This statement is extremely anti-town. By saying this, you are making the doctor's choice more predictable, allowing the mafia a better chance of killing someone other than Swiss. And, when Swiss sticks around, you can keep tagging along with him, looking very much like town. Very scummy in my book.

We haven't decided on a lynch vote yet, so for now I'll let the unvote stand. Hopefully we'll be able to make a choice tomorrow and push things forward.

 

[SummonerAU]

Maymay, why do I feel like dropping a vote onto you? Vote: Mayling

oh yeah, it's because you're scum. How did I forget that?

 

[SummonerAU]

unvote Vote: Mayling

 

[smargaret]

Short post, because I'm on my way to bed - at the moment, I find J to be the scummiest. He keeps playing the newb card to excuse scummy behavior and isn't posting, even though he's watching the thread. At the least, he's anti-town, although I'm willing to give him a chance to start posting better before lynching.


I have work and a dance tomorrow, so I'll be on briefly in the morning and then not at all until 11:30 eastern. Tuesdays are the day I am least able to get online, however.

 

[smargaret]

After seeing the other posts - I'd like to hear more reasoning from Summoner. This is the second vote from him without any explanation, he hasn't posted much, and what he has posted hasn't contained any scumhunting. So actually, I'd like to hear more of everything from him.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Second, assume we have 3 scum and 9 mafia. That's slightly unbalanced in favor of scum and the typical setup for 12-player games. Day 1, we mislynch and learn Player B is scum based on the flip. At the start of Day 2, we have 7 town and 3 scum, we lynch Player B, then the nightkill gives us 6 town and 2 scum. We're still at a 3-1 ratio of town to scum, and we didn't risk the mislynch Day 2. I'm certainly not unhappy with that outcome; I'm also willing to be the mislynch Day 1 if it leads to a scum lynch Day 2.

Actually, if we had 3 scum and 9 mafia, the game would not only be unbalanced in favor of scum, but the odds of town winning would be 0%, considering mafia has a majority as soon as the game starts.

I'm surprised nobody pointed out this "slip" earlier. Could be a slip, could be just a doozy, but it's possible you had mafia on the mind when writing that analysis. Are you referring to "town" as "mafia" because town is your enemy hmm?

About active lurking: there's a difference between not posting because you don't have internet or you're on vacation and not posting because you don't want attention drawn to you. Since you were looking at the thread (and posting without game content after you got votes put on you), we know you had access to the thread and it was active lurking. Failing to post is a null-tell. Active lurking is a scum-tell. I'm glad your pressuring J into activity, that is a townie move, but I hope you realize how smart mafia play, or at least have that possibility in considered when as you pressure players like J for their active lurking.

Do you realize there are also scum out there who avoid going inactive for the exact reason that inactive players are easily lynched and under high suspicion? Smart mafia play involves posting just enough to avoid being considered inactive but rare enough so your opinions aren't thrown everywhere, and I'm a bit bothered you didn't note this as a possibility when you pointed out active lurking being a scum tell. There are a lot of inactives that end up town because they are either dumb or lazy town. I know you said you only said this to J to get her to scumhunt, but I do hope you keep this in mind. Speaking of J, does anything besides J's inactivity make you feel that she is possible scum - ie, what are your thoughts on her outside of her inactivity? And is there a reason you picked on her but not Summoner AU who is just as much a lurker?

I also don't like that you stressed that you are comfortable being picked on. Doesnt make me feel better knowing that you are comfortable enough to dodge pressure as scum, perhaps I can try to make you less comfortable?

Vote: Smargaret

Maymay, why do I feel like dropping a vote onto you? Vote: Mayling

oh yeah, it's because you're scum. How did I forget that?

Uh, why do you feel mayling is scum? Also you haven't said much. What do you think of Swiss' n0 fake cop claim and people's reactions - did you get any reads? The last contribution you have other than the above was below mentioning that we have scum either way, and you went over some possibilties:

If Swiss is claiming he's got a guilty, course I'm going to go with it.

Maymay, we've got a scum either way so just chillax. We're going to lose a townie anyway and a D1 fake cop claim would be mad dumb (UNLESS YOU DID SOMETHING CRAZY KAT) although I would expect scum to get things in N0 so it's something to think about. IT'S 2:14AM WHY AM I EVEN POSTING LET ALONE AWAKE

...but you didn't give reads on anyone considering the situation that happened after. I'd like some of those. Hm coasting a bit maybe?

Also, I'm feeling good about Xastrn now, town read, esp thanks to post #210

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Sorry it took me like 25 minutes to make my post and I got completely ninja'd by smargaret, and she adressed a couple of my points =/

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Though I'm less keen on keeping my vote on you since you did question summoner just as I pointed out, I'll keep my vote til I see direct responses to my questions tomorrow, I'll come back tomorrow to add more.

 

[smargaret]

Yeah, that was a typo. I rewrote that analysis something like three times trying to get the numbers right, and I must have missed it when I was rewriting.

I did go after Summoner. I hadn't figured out how to iso people until Cello explained it, and then once I did, Summoner jumped out as active-lurking, and I questioned him.

Yes, smart scum avoid going inactive. However, J's play hasn't seemed especially smart so far, because smart town avoid going inactive as well. J will need to post more for me to get anything else on him, but what he has contributed - a case on me - is astonishingly weak.

Joanbud asked me if I was bothered by being picked on. Coming under pressure doesn't particularly change my playstyle (I may post a tad more frequently to answer questions, but I don't start flailing and OMGUS'ing or completely shut down and self-hammer), so I said it didn't bother me. Would you rather I ignore her question?

Why did you tell me the vote was to pressure me? Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose?

 

[Xastrn]

Going to bed.

@smargaret and EP: In case you all missed it, Summoner immediately withdrew his vote for Mayling. I'm pretty sure he was joking around there. I'm sure you can still get some kind of read from that, but it just sounded like you all were treating it like a legit vote, which I don't think it was. :/

 

[smargaret]

Xastrn: No, he didn't. His first vote wasn't proper - he hadn't unvoted. The next post unvoted you and then immediately voted Mayling for real.

 

[SummonerAU]

Don't be dumb and say my first vote needed an explanation smargaret. Just looks like you're trying to make me look bad. I can do that perfectly well without any help. Anyway, Mayling's got a vote on her because she's scum

Seriously though, it's because she acted funny during the Swiss N0 cop claim thing. She either didn't think about where it was going or she just wanted to look good stopping a mislynch on some she knew was town. She didn't need to be against it.

EdreesesPieces, can't tell if you're being serious or not with your comments on smargaret's typo. Either way, don't ask if it's scummy if you think people need to look at it. Looks mad wishy-washy and like you want everyone to agree with you before you press someone for it.

Xastrn, what are you doing? I suggest you go read the rules again if you're messing up Unvoting and Voting. Definitely don't like

Not quite sure why people are saying I've been actively lurking. I'm pretty sure I've just been sleeping (you know, that whole Australian timezone thing). Would like to know how you differentiate active lurking and inactivity.

No this is not an OMGUS vote, I am truly thinking something is very off about this statement that is bugging me.

Why wouldn't you be telling the truth? Very worried you felt the need the emphasis that you were.

Swiss, that was a terrible play. You should have waited to see how people (especially JoanBud, smargaret and J [and in my opinion, Nick, but meh]) responded to Xastrn's obvscuminess before coming forward with a guilty result.

Don't like this Cello. How you used 'obvscuminess' here is funny. Not funny haha but funny suspicious. Do you still stand by this statement?

 

[SummonerAU]

Forgot to add something about Mayling:

Seriously though, it's because she acted funny during the Swiss N0 cop claim thing. She either didn't think about where it was going or she just wanted to look good stopping a mislynch on some she knew was town. She didn't need to be against it. At the time, she knew it was either a) Swiss lying c) Xastrn is scum c) Swiss is trying something funny.

a) means getting scum
b) means getting scum
c) means reactions and things

Just being plain against it right in the middle is very strange to me.

 

[Swiss]

K.

Would lynch J, Joan.

Xas the Gord attitude is fine, you misunderstood it. Think of the motive behind a post as well.

X1 where u @? Who's the play? Where those claws gone?

Smarg step it up.

 

[Mayling]

Forgot to add something about Mayling:

Seriously though, it's because she acted funny during the Swiss N0 cop claim thing. She either didn't think about where it was going or she just wanted to look good stopping a mislynch on some she knew was town. She didn't need to be against it. At the time, she knew it was either a) Swiss lying c) Xastrn is scum c) Swiss is trying something funny.

a) means getting scum
b) means getting scum
c) means reactions and things

Just being plain against it right in the middle is very strange to me.

i thought you were going to have a reason to vote me but lol you don't.

the reason i thought swiss was lying was because there was no night zero. it was SO OBVIOUS there was no night zero, and i said something about it. and now i'm getting drilled over it?

a) if i were scum and if i knew swiss was lying, why would i stop him from trying to get a mislynch on someone?

b) if i were scum and if xastrn is scum, when he comes up scum, that means i'm immediate dead. i'd sooner sign my name on his lynch rather than try and save him.

c) this sentence reads "she knew Swiss is trying something funny" which is similar to A. I don't know why you repeated yourself other than you were tempting to make yourself look smart.

why don't you stop following cello and make your own opinions? it was obvious that swiss was lying and everyone BUT ME was willing to follow him.. but somehow that makes me scum.

 

[Cello_Marl]

Don't like this Cello. How you used 'obvscuminess' here is funny. Not funny haha but funny suspicious. Do you still stand by this statement?

At the time I made it, I stood by it 100%. Now, I do not believe Xastrn is scum.

@EP: smargaret looks pretty smart to me. She won't be making any meaningful language slips.

@JoanBud: Why did you post a list of your suspicions? How was that useful? Especially since it felt like you followed everyone on it that you decided to actually give an opinion on with "...but I dunno...".

@May: Tell me what you think about JoanBud, J and smargaret.

 

[smargaret]

Summoner: That was the first post you'd made that had any sort of game-related content in it. You'd posted one-liners and random votes, but nothing with any analysis. And you weren't even posting that often. That's why what you were doing was active lurking.

Okay, you're in Australia. How does being in Australia prevent you from reading the thread, identifying scum, and posting something like you did about Mayling just now? It doesn't, so why weren't you earlier?

Swiss, how do you suggest I step it up? Isn't that what I did all of yesterday? I agree about X1, though.

 

[SummonerAU]

Maymay, if you were scum, you would be pretty safe in playing like Swiss was up to something since you know a and b are out the question AND you would know N0 isn't there since you would have known about it. I don't know if there's a N0 for sure and afaik mods don't always announce that there is. (according to mafiascum wiki: "Night 0 is often used as Pregame or an actual night in night starting games.". I don't see why it's so out there to think that something might have happened N0)

It's pretty much summed up as this, if you are town, I don't think you should have opposed the claim like you did. If you did, you probably should have gunned after Swiss if you thought he was lying, it's a pretty big claim. If you're scum, you would have known something was funny with it and playing it like you did would be an attempt to appear town out of it.

 

[Mayling]

Maymay, if you were scum, you would be pretty safe in playing like Swiss was up to something since you know a and b are out the question AND you would know N0 isn't there since you would have known about it. I don't know if there's a N0 for sure and afaik mods don't always announce that there is. (according to mafiascum wiki: "Night 0 is often used as Pregame or an actual night in night starting games.". I don't see why it's so out there to think that something might have happened N0)

if there was a n0, the mod would have made it regulated. it would have been like a normal night, with a time limit, just before d1, so people WHO have actions could think it over and use them. otherwise it's not fair to players who have those actions. also swiss made it sound like he was n0 cop specifically, not "day-cop." there's no sense in arguing about the fake mechanics, because they didn't exist in the first place.

i'm pretty sure a mod would announce a n0 otherwise it would just seem like the player is lying.

how are A and B out of the question? if they're out of the question, then why did you put them as possible scenarios?

It's pretty much summed up as this, if you are town, I don't think you should have opposed the claim like you did.

why wouldn't i oppose an obvious lie?

If you did, you probably should have gunned after Swiss if you thought he was lying, it's a pretty big claim.

so calling him out on his obvious lie wasn't gunning for him? everyone else was just blindly following him. INCLUDING YOU, who was like "what does it matter, lynch one, then lynch the other." which it does matter, if he was lying.

looking back i should have voted swiss. which is why i unvoted (tho I still didn't place my vote on him.) but given swiss's style SO FAR, (Hi, I'm a hydra I'm Swi and SS) and general attitude, I was thinking the n0 cop was innuendo for "I have a strong feeling." but if he had said "no, I'm n0 cop" I would have definitely pursued it.

If you're scum, you would have known something was funny with it and playing it like you did would be an attempt to appear town out of it.

it should have been obvious to ANYONE that something was funny out of it. i was honestly shocked when i saw cello ask "did anyone else have n0 actions" ...since there was no n0.

 

[Cello_Marl]

For what it's worth, after thinking about it, I think Kat would have announced an actual Night 0.

@Nick, JoanBud, and J: Talk about May.

@May: Does a Nick, JoanBud, J scumteam make sense to you?

@Summoner: I'm starting to have a few doubts about May. What you say makes sense, but it did happen pretty fast.

Still don't think investigating May is a good idea. If we need to know her alignment for sure, lynching is the way to go. But I'd rather lynchvestigate Nick, JoanBud and J first.

 

[SummonerAU]

Right, if you remember I said I would be v/la until the 20th. Today's the 21st for me and I woke up at 1pm. It's 10:37pm for me right now. Is that all?

inb4 "but you posted" v/la doesn't mean I won't post and I think we can all I agree I didn't post much.

 

[smargaret]

I had missed the v/la. Apologies.

 

[Nicholas1024]

@Cello
Give me time for a reread. I'm just not sure where everything's at right now. This game's just been moving too fast for me so far. Hopefully I can get some meaningful analysis to you guys soon.

 

[SummonerAU]

what's with this swiss claiming n0 cop? wtf? there was no n0?

This is gunning for him?

I see what you're saying about N0 though.

why wouldn't i oppose an obvious lie?

because it was leading places? If Swiss was lying, it was either going to reveal him as scum or make Xastrn squirm really hard. What does town gain if you point out Swiss is lying in the middle of it? You're either saying Swiss is scum without any doubt, or you're messing up whatever Swiss wanted the achieve with what he was doing.

 

[Mayling]

This is gunning for him?

I was the only person saying anything about N0. When you said to chillax, I said "i won't" meaning I wanted answers.

because it was leading places? If Swiss was lying, it was either going to reveal him as scum or make Xastrn squirm really hard. What does town gain if you point out Swiss is lying in the middle of it? You're either saying Swiss is scum without any doubt, or you're messing up whatever Swiss wanted the achieve with what he was doing.

Town gains because if Swiss was going to claim n0-cop, which is an obvious lie, then we can lynch him and get scum. You co-signed to lynching Xastrn, seeing his flip, and if he flipped town, then killing Swiss. But in that process of thought, we could have possibly lost two townies: Xastrn and the night kill. We still get a scum, which is good, but in my thought process if we get scum first that's even better. So I said something about it.

I don't know what Swiss was trying to achieve with claiming n0-cop (reaction testing, apparently) because to me it was a dumb claim because it was so obvious there was no n0.

from that last paragraph, it sounds to me you're accusing me of "you didn't let things play out, therefore you're scum" it also mildly sounds like "you didn't do what i would have done, therefore you're scum." but I did what I thought was best, which was calling out Swiss in a lie as soon as I saw it.

@Cello, I'm not ignoring you. I just wanna deal with this first, and since you asked a lot of me I want to reply when I have time to reread. Also, can you call me either maymay or mayling on the forum. I don't want people to start calling me may. (Yes, it bothers me that much.)

 

[SummonerAU]

farking d/cs

Just to be 100% certain Maymay, did you think Swiss was scum after his claim?

 

[Xastrn]

Xastrn, what are you doing? I suggest you go read the rules again if you're messing up Unvoting and Voting. Definitely don't like.

1. Don't criticize me for misreading your second post when you were the one who screwed up the rules. It would have been less confusing if you had done it correctly. (Or added some punctuation)

2. I would have been more inclined to think it was a real vote if you had added some more reasoning to your post, rather than "you're obviously scum." This has been a constant criticism of voting habits this game.

3. You turning this around on me, saying, "Definitely don't like," makes it sound like you are turning a simple misunderstanding (that was coming to your defense, no less) into accusing me of scummy behavior. I find THAT to be scummy behavior.

 

[SummonerAU]

Sorry Xastrn, I was annoyed at the possibility you hadn't bothered to read the rules at all at the time. It was a pretty narky comment and yeah, I didn't help at all.

 

[SummonerAU]

"(that was coming to your defense, no less)" just pointing out it shouldn't matter if you were defending me or not. You've got to look at everyone, not just people who are against you.

 

[X1-12]

K.

Would lynch J, Joan.

Xas the Gord attitude is fine, you misunderstood it. Think of the motive behind a post as well.

X1 where u @? Who's the play? Where those claws gone?

I was clawing up my bedsheets and my schoolbooks


Unvote

Vote: J


Reaally not liking J


I think its L-2 already

 

[X1-12]

^ don't quote me on saying its L-2 btw