[M-1/15/19/24/27/32/33/34] FF7: Mafia Remix | Game over, Mafia Wins!

[mentosman8]

Well I was gonna make a post before bed, but I've got a splitting headache and work in about 5 hours. Since I'm here though, and don't want to completely waste a post,

@nix, rockin, mentos, summoner, sue, and chuckie: your thoughts on kevin? if not kevin, where do your suspicons lie and why

My gut when Chibo flipped was that Kevin was the mentor. That feeling has not left yet, so I think he could be a potential lynch today. The only problem I have here is lack of knowledge about the role. Not knowing exactly what the role is/does, it is hard to determine the priority of the mentor's lynch vs that of mafia. This is what requires more thinking on my behalf.

Gheb's death seems overly expected to me. Widely regarded as townie, and if he did crumb cop that would have made it an even easier choice. Definitely don't like losing him N1, and not just cuz he's cop. Also as an aside, this is another slap in the face to the original FF7's setup, I know we all know Tom wouldn't make this easy to meta, but it's good to point out that at this point it's clear we can't use the original game for assistance whatsoever, so anyone who was thinking of it should throw the idea out the window

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Raged at the NK.

Yeah Gheb was obvtown as **** but he was bellicose enough to warrant the NK and was kinda wishy washy to.

Someone in scumteam is just afraid of gheb straight up because he was workable IMO from a scum perspective.

He was seriously the one person I didn't want to die. **** that.

His flip also makes it clear to me why he didn't like me discussing role swaps and changes. =/

About to do a hardcore Chibo re-read. Before I do that though I wanna talk about the indy flip.

My current thoughts are that this is Tom's redesigned version of the indy-twins from last game and a brilliant one at that. Instead of having a twin setup based on survival with two players that are immune to opposite means of death that it focused on both players just avoiding each of their banes, the new twin setup has the same survivor wincon but is just based on the self preservation of 1 member, with a replaceable second.

I'm pretty much thinking the Mentor/Mentee build from Taco mafia but +1 starting mentee (i.e. permanent mentee). The mentor likely can still re-recruit everynight to restore the partnership to two players. Gotta kill the mentor to take the faction out. Can't decide whether nor not the faction likely has killing power though. No way we can tell conclusively from there only being one kill last night since if this mentor/mentee business works any way like in did in Taco, only the mentee can kill and with chibo gone the mentor needs to re-recruit for a night before they can kill again.

I know we all know Tom wouldn't make this easy to meta, but it's good to point out that at this point it's clear we can't use the original game for assistance whatsoever, so anyone who was thinking of it should throw the idea out the window

This seriously made my stomach turn over.

What kind of absolutist crock is this? Like lol wut? It's weird **** you say like this mentos that makes me mad suspicious of you.

Anyway off to do that chibo deal.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

EBWOP: Yeah Gheb was obvtown as **** but he WASN'T bellicose enough to warrant the NK and was kinda wishy washy too.

 

[vanderzant]

Chuckie has had a marvellous revelation (n.b. this was technically written before Frozen's post, wii did not steal his ideas at all , but it is nice to see someone on a similar wavelength)


Vote: Omni

Omni voted Chibo in #162, for apparently no reason other than to prod chibo, who had been V/LA. Now, if you look back on page 4, you'll notice he'd been posting prod: player xxx beforehand. Yet he decides to vote Chibo in this post, which is his second vote (first being Frozen).

Yet this vote seemingly serves no purpose apart from to "prod" chibo. The only difference is that this now appears in the vote count (and technically Chibo hadn't posted anything besides "reading and stuff ya know" (#133).

Next, you will notice that in Chibo's #169 he posts a "half finished" selective response to certain posts. Omni immediately calls him out on this in his #170, and then in his #172 calls for a Chibo wagon by saying:

"someone take my hand and join this Chibo wagon. i think it'll be a goood ride"

Convenient that Omni had already voted Chibo before he had even posted anything of substance. It is also pretty convenient at how lousy Chibo's first post was, and how easy it was for Omni to dismiss it and call for a wagon.

Wii think this might be a slip up in Omni's play. Too quick and eager to bus his useless scum-partner-mentee Chibo, he accidentally voted him before he had a reason too.

---

Next, consider how toDay Omni has already said:

"let's assume it's custom made ergo not make assumptions about the role at all. don't wanna give scum an opportunity to harp on flavor"

Straight up, Omni says he doesn't want us to theorise what the role "Mentee" or "Mentor" could possibly be, as to not give scum an advantage over town. But surely, having a basic understanding of the possibilities of a scum faction is IMPORTANT for town? As long as town doesn't draw definite conclusions, understanding the data our mod has relayed to us is ESSENTIAL for us.

ChuckieKat would like to suggest that a mentor USUALLY insinuates or implies the following characteristics:

1. The existence of a 'mentor'. This is pretty much a given, and is a pretty good assumption to make imo.
2. The role names 'mentor' and 'mentee' suggest that if the mentor dies, so does the mentee (or mentees?). If not, why call them as such, why not independant siblings? mentor/mentee suggests a difference in roles (i.e. the godfather/goon in vengeful mafia)
3. The mentor may sometimes be able to recruit a mentee. This is probably dependant on whether or not their is currently another mentee alive, and it's also likely to have some sort of restrictions (i.e. limit of 1 mentee at a time, can only recruit certain players, etc.).

While we obviously can't straight up ASSUME most (or any) of the above, it would be INCREDIBLY naive to not even consider the possibilities of a mentee/mentor independant faction.

So if we are at the very least assume the existence of a mentor, we'd be dumb to not think "ok, someone might have been recruited by a mentor, and they saw Chibo as an easy bus" And keep this in the back of our minds for later on. Surely it's not confirmed, but it's certainly possible one way or another.

---

If you accept some of the above possibilities, you will see that bussing the mentee may not be such a bad strategy for that faction. If the mentor is able to recruit (possible!) then killing off his mentee in a bussing fashion distances him from him pretty well. It also would allow the mentor to throw suspicion on those who did the opposite (i.e. didn't want to lynch chibo, or changed stances through out the day).

/WIFOM BLABLABLA (don't call us out on this, wii understand it in this situation)

tl;dr: Omni could be the mentor and he bussed Chibo when he found out he'd be useless, and he's probably recruited someone like Riddler if he has that ability.

 

[Chuckie]

Noooooo my cover is blown

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Chuckie you have your head in the right place thinking about mega bussing when it comes to mentees (they are LITERALLY expendable and replaceable goons. The design of the mentor mentee setup is to enable the mentor easy bus material that he'll need to help himself survive).

Problem is you thinking it was OMNI who bussed him.

Like holy wtf**** if Omni is the mentor that's the most hardcore buss I think I've ever seen ever. It's just not reasonable at all.

I REALLY don't think he's the mentor. Omni could still def. be scum, but if he's the mentor I'll **** bricks.

Anyway re-read Chibo and I'm pretty sure our mentor is either Omis, Rockin, Nix or JF. Maybe Sue as a stragling 5th but his interactions with Xiivi seemed to be more like wagon starter attempts (which doesn't make sense for the mentee to do to the mentor), not early distancing.

Vote: Omis for now.

He jumps in on page 14 apparantly all interested in the chibo wagon once he claims. He asks some bull**** questions about whether Chibo was advocating for NL over his own lynch (which just reeks of last ditch distancing attempts) and then takes Omni's hand after Omni sees him doing some research or whatever.

**** just doesn't jive with me at all.

And then of course the hammer which isn't anything out of the ordinary for a mentor to do to his obvplay mentee.

Also chibo like doesn't interact with him at all until hes about to be lynch and even then it's just barely. Makes sense for mentee play.

Rockin I have a little suspicion of mostly because Chibo throws him out there as town near the end of the day but also because chibo says some weird **** earlier about rockin like him just being a dead presence or something but doesn't really push or anything. Just comes off as some stupid thing to say to make it look like you are anti-rockin but not trying to get a wagon going (which he obviously doesnt want on his mentor).

JF is like rockin because chibo calls him town like out of ****ing no where. Call it too obvious but it still seriously looks bad.

Nix has some lame interaction with chibo at some point and that like it, mostly my suspicions of him derive from one weird interaction and then like nothing after thats. It's primarily the lack of interaction.

Omni if you ****ing come in here and tell me its not omis because of some bull**** ****ing meta I will seriously rage at you. You need to seriously consider Omis here.

 

[mentosman8]

I wouldn't say mega bus is out of the question FF. Lmbo is a very aggressive player so if he were the mentor I could see him being that harsh on a bus. Not my top choice but don't rule it out cuz he was after chibo so hard.

And FF, what's wrong with saying we shouldn't use the original game to try to meta at all? Sephiroth was a different role, the biggest role in the game was an npc, the indy partnership is different and cloud's role was different. That's 5 roles either severely different or thrown out by D2. At that point it's pretty clear a major difference even without taking any other roles into account. Looking to the first game at all with that big a difference is pretty clearly a bad idea, even if a couple roles are the same or very close to the same.

 

[Omni]

headed to work soon. i'll post more there when i can

@vander: huh? no, it wasn't a bus. it was me playing mafia correctly. i placed a vote 'conveniently' on everyone before i moved over to the next person. i also explained why i kept my vote on Chibo rather then moved to someone else. anyway, i'll debunk your argument later but i think it's funny/scary that you'd consider me the play. tho im not surprised at all. interesting that you used 2 post (one from today and one from yesterday) to draw up your entire argument. what do you think of my earlier points on Kevin? did you really have nothing to say about it?

@mentos: i was after chibo hard because he was scummy as ****. amazing town omni is amazing. a bus is not out of the question for anyone but uh the only thing i can say is that i didn't do it. also not liking your concentrating on tom flavor. same goes for frozen. talk more about players and what you think about them being scummy or not will you? im curious as to why you don't have any solid reads yet. you're playing it riight in the middle.

@frozen: huh? omis over kevin? lmao. no sir. kevin needs to die toDay.

more later when i get to work.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

/giantfacepalm.jpg @ mentos

Meta'ing the old game DOES NOT mean assume that facts from the old setup remain true here. That's not what I'm saying at all mentos.

Obviously Tom made a lot of changes. The point is though, that a lot of what we're seeing here suggests he kept the same general character pool, swapped the old NPCs and safeclaims in as active roles, and moved some of the ones from the old game out and made them safe claims or NPCs.

Just because Tom made changes and well thought out changes at that doesn't mean we can't try and go through that remodeling thought process ourselves and figure some things out about the setup.

If you are going to continue to argue that using knowledge of the old game is a bad idea when trying to piece together clues about the new setup here, stop acting like trying to meta the setup is a priori a bad idea and actually back it up with some arguments, though I doubt any of them will continue to stand anyway considering games like these are pretty much BEGGING to be meta'd.

That DOES NOT mean that Tom is predictable, nor does it mean his design is shallow. Quite the opposite actually. I means that as more clues unveil themselves, we can start to see more into the eyes of the designer who had to take a setup, and use at least a chunk of the same cast and, mix up the power roles, and maintain faction balance without starting 100% over. These subtle changes need to be very particular and well thought out for the game to work, and it's actually much easier to follow genius than it is to follow imbecility.

Mentor/Mentee swap for old indy twins is a perfect example of what may be one of these subtle but awesome changes. It's just a really ****in smart way to keep that kill-less indy archetype in the game but make it something new and fitting for new flavour.

When we get a scum flip and see who that's comprised of, we can use similar analysis to possibly learn more about the nature of the mafia power wise.

How this is not evident to you is absolutely beyond me, and the fact that you're calling for ear plugs and blinders when it comes to flavour discussion is so dumb its scum.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Oh and @ Omni if KevMo is such an obvplay I really don't see it.

Not that I think he's trottin the town trot but I really fail to see how he's the obv play. And plus I have no idea what you're inditing him as, scum or the mentor?

Both will require very different cases to be convincing. Should probs hop to it.

Also are you just saying that you agree Omis is a good play but just not better than Kevin or are you still being dumb and holding his hand?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Omni's recent play toDay is bothering me. I am kinda feelin the bus idea.

Posting on phone, more thoughts to come in a bit, but thats my general feeling right now

 

[Omni]

crashboards made me lose a few of my responses. poop.

Omni voted Chibo in #162, for apparently no reason other than to prod chibo, who had been V/LA. Now, if you look back on page 4, you'll notice he'd been posting prod: player xxx beforehand. Yet he decides to vote Chibo in this post, which is his second vote (first being Frozen).

the vote was placed on Chibo to prod him. however, he came back from V/LA announcing that he'd do his reread a few days before. i then prodded him because he updated saying "i'm halfway through" when there was only 8 pages of information to read at that point. you'll notice that i didn't have a vote on ANY of the V/LA players including Xiivi, Chibo, and i think there was someone else.

Yet this vote seemingly serves no purpose apart from to "prod" chibo. The only difference is that this now appears in the vote count (and technically Chibo hadn't posted anything besides "reading and stuff ya know" (#133).

explained above.

Next, you will notice that in Chibo's #169 he posts a "half finished" selective response to certain posts. Omni immediately calls him out on this in his #170, and then in his #172 calls for a Chibo wagon by saying:

"someone take my hand and join this Chibo wagon. i think it'll be a goood ride"

Convenient that Omni had already voted Chibo before he had even posted anything of substance. It is also pretty convenient at how lousy Chibo's first post was, and how easy it was for Omni to dismiss it and call for a wagon.

bull shenanigans. like i said in my earlier post i placed my votes on players as a prod manuever. i explained to Gheb (who made this same case) that i left my vote on Chibo because he was the first person to actually look scummily. meanwhile Chibo's on the side complaning 'waaa, Xiivi did the same thing' and making super fluff, obv not town chibo statements.

regardless, me voting Chibo BEFORE calling him out on his crappy analysis would not change anything. if i had placed a vote on Chibo AFTER calling him on his crappy analysis the point remains the same except my vote wouldn't have been put on chibo in a prod like manuever originally. basically, vander, the fact that i had a vote on Chibo wasn't "convenient". it was consistent to my play style of prodding, then moving to other players as i felt comfortable.

Wii think this might be a slip up in Omni's play. Too quick and eager to bus his useless scum-partner-mentee Chibo, he accidentally voted him before he had a reason too.

so no this is wrong. 'accidentally' voting Chibo isn't a slip. it was a prod placement vote. interesting that you'd come to this line of thought.

---

Next, consider how toDay Omni has already said:

"let's assume it's custom made ergo not make assumptions about the role at all. don't wanna give scum an opportunity to harp on flavor"

Straight up, Omni says he doesn't want us to theorise what the role "Mentee" or "Mentor" could possibly be, as to not give scum an advantage over town. But surely, having a basic understanding of the possibilities of a scum faction is IMPORTANT for town? As long as town doesn't draw definite conclusions, understanding the data our mod has relayed to us is ESSENTIAL for us.

that's correct. it's easily for scum to dilute into flavor talk and look like they're contributing. it's been done many times before. also, this is a tom game so his definitions of certain roles could be altered. i use to be a real heavy meta-ish type player but after getting ****** over several times for pushing it too hard i've come to realize the strongest, safest, and most efficient way to play is to stay away from too much flavor talk.

the information that Tom relayed to us cannot be confirmed unless there's a specific role on wikipedia that matches the title of Elena. if there isn't then i'm not going to make any assumptions. that doesn't mean i won't consider what it COULD be, but since it ain't confirmable i'm not going to have that set in stone.

ChuckieKat would like to suggest that a mentor USUALLY insinuates or implies the following characteristics:

1. The existence of a 'mentor'. This is pretty much a given, and is a pretty good assumption to make imo.
2. The role names 'mentor' and 'mentee' suggest that if the mentor dies, so does the mentee (or mentees?). If not, why call them as such, why not independant siblings? mentor/mentee suggests a difference in roles (i.e. the godfather/goon in vengeful mafia)
3. The mentor may sometimes be able to recruit a mentee. This is probably dependant on whether or not their is currently another mentee alive, and it's also likely to have some sort of restrictions (i.e. limit of 1 mentee at a time, can only recruit certain players, etc.).

that's cool. i've never played in a game with a mentor/mentee.

While we obviously can't straight up ASSUME most (or any) of the above, it would be INCREDIBLY naive to not even consider the possibilities of a mentee/mentor independant faction.[/QUOTE[

huh, this is a bit of a twist/stretch. are you suggesting that i didn't consider the possibility of a mentee/mentor indy faction? tell me where you're getting this information because i don't think i've said nor implied it.

So if we are at the very least assume the existence of a mentor, we'd be dumb to not think "ok, someone might have been recruited by a mentor, and they saw Chibo as an easy bus" And keep this in the back of our minds for later on. Surely it's not confirmed, but it's certainly possible one way or another.

a lot of ifs. high probable ifs. i don't consider to be the improper way of thinking. again, the point of just taking that role as is and trying not to assume much about it is so we could steer away from flavor discussion. this was right after i asked you and a series of players about kevin's play. i want people to tell me who's the play and who's scummy without falling back too much on flavor.

---

If you accept some of the above possibilities, you will see that bussing the mentee may not be such a bad strategy for that faction. If the mentor is able to recruit (possible!) then killing off his mentee in a bussing fashion distances him from him pretty well. It also would allow the mentor to throw suspicion on those who did the opposite (i.e. didn't want to lynch chibo, or changed stances through out the day).

i mean, yea as you said wifom blablabla, but this is just stemmed from the possibility that you think i buss'd chibo. the real question is: do you really think i'm scummy? how would you rate my play this entire game, because you've used a total of two posts to come to the drawn out conclusion that i'm buss'ing Chibo.

what's interesting is that you've magically come to this conclusion immediately. there doesn't seem to be any... particular suspicion on me for doing so beforehand. there wasn't a process of you questioning me to solidify certain thoughts you might have. you literally jumped from point A to point B in your line of thinking and i cant see the substance of your transition.

tl;dr: Omni could be the mentor and he bussed Chibo when he found out he'd be useless, and he's probably recruited someone like Riddler if he has that ability.

what made you come to the conclusion that i recruited Riddler? i'd like to hear your in-depth analysis of this particularly strong statement since it's not backed with any support.

 

[KevinM]

Still think

Chaco for what I said earlier
Summoner for super skimbrothers
Mentos for trying to meta into D2.

Those are our three solid choices.

Still ok with Omni dying.

Mac is kinda obvi at this point since he hasn't made a good post in a while.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

woo ps

 

[Dr. Riddler]

obvi what


and jeeez, so many long posts

 

[Nix2100]

@Chuckie - I'm not the greatest fan of Omni myself at the moment, but even I think that post is a bit of a stretch to accuse him of being a mentor.

I also dont exactly see the Kevin lynch, but that's probably because I don't recall half the posts from Day 1 after that long night phase -_- will go back and look into him more.

Still liking Chaco personally >_> My reasons stay the same as before

Also Mentos....can we just stop talking about the first FF7 game? Like...just stop....no more mentioning of the game -_-

 

[Omni]

Oh and @ Omni if KevMo is such an obvplay I really don't see it.

Not that I think he's trottin the town trot but I really fail to see how he's the obv play. And plus I have no idea what you're inditing him as, scum or the mentor?

Both will require very different cases to be convincing. Should probs hop to it.

Also are you just saying that you agree Omis is a good play but just not better than Kevin or are you still being dumb and holding his hand?

i've been inditing him as scum since early Day 1. if u just go back and read my posts alone you should see a plethora of points i have against Kevin. if you trust me in regards to scumhunting and outing Chibo (which you should) i'm hoping you'll become a bit more trusting with my judgment. tho i could be wrong but i dont think im wrong here at all

also, im a bit confused as to why you don't think he's the play in the least bit. can you tell me what you, yourself, think of kevin in as much detail as possible after reviewing his play both these Days? id like to think that i'm on the right track, and i'd like to think people i find townish to have at least a similar mindset as me. this isn't an fos on you.

Omis has been receiving blinders from me because he's been agreeing with my line of thought and scum suspicions for the most part. he's hardbody coasting at the moment and he NEEDS to start posting more actively, but as i said before to Gheb i'll happily turn a blind eye to somewhat quieter players if they're agreeing with my stances.

so to answer your question i think Kevin is the play, but there's a lot that can happen today that can change that. depending on how Omis continues to talk it could change but i have a firm grasp on Kevin right now. im pretty sure it's a good one just like last time.

Omni's recent play toDay is bothering me. I am kinda feelin the bus idea.

Posting on phone, more thoughts to come in a bit, but thats my general feeling right now

jungle, i didn't have you in my scum pool for one reason:

so yeah im ok with the chibo wagon now

vote: Chibo

this was because after the Chibo vs. me dispute you were the first person to join me on his wagon. +1 blinders for you from me at this point, however, i have to start taking several things into account:

- chibo flipped indy; mafia would be ok to join that wagon if someone made a solid enough case against that player
- which means severla players that i've been giving blinders to need to be reexamined (unless they're also on the kevin wagon with me)

so what it comes down to is whether or not you believe this dispute was TvT or TvS. this point also directly applies to Chuckie as well.

Chibo #169
Omni #170
Chibo #171
Omni #172
Omni #173
Chibo #179
Omni #180

this was the 1st of several 1v1's that we had. i've taken a step back and reexamined our dispute from a 3rd party perspective. you [Jungle] can maybe get a pass since i havent played with you in a while but Vander was just in DG Mafia with me. im pretty sure he's got a good read on my play style just as Frozen's been picking up this game.

------

the problem with the bus scenario flavor talk is that people can take actual townie actions (lynching scum) and completely turn it on its head "if we assume that this person bus'd". to me i think that's a total cop out and aiming for the person who outed scum D1 for bus reasons wreaks of filth.

if i were you [you guys] and i were looking at me there'd be no way that i'd be considering Omni the play. the hard cold facts is that he did a large amount of scumhunting Day 1, is one of the most active players in the game, constantly is on inactive's rears, has created a pletheroa of connections, outed indy scum D1, and is pretty much a huge asset for town.

that being the case mafia knows this and will try to cast that shadow of doubt on me to make me a more viable nightkill play. its not a secret that im a huge night action target from both town and mafia so im sure Gheb was the play because mafia didn't have the gonads [or had the brains] to stay clear from me.

-----

@Jungle (again): back up your statement. don't echo chuckie. then tell me what reads you've picked up so far at this point in the game

 

[Omni]

Still think

Chaco for what I said earlier
Summoner for super skimbrothers
Mentos for trying to meta into D2.

Those are our three solid choices.

Still ok with Omni dying.

Mac is kinda obvi at this point since he hasn't made a good post in a while.

Are you really not going to respond to this?

the fact that people have been ok with Kevin playing Super Dodge and Redirect Bros. all game urks me

also, didnt Summoner clear up that misunderstanding by pinpointing who he was responding to directly? idk how u can be ok with one of my points against Summoner, have him 2nd on your lynch list, but still be ok with me dying but w/e

o but i agree with mentos

 

[Omni]

no more long posts from me for a while

@Rockin: you are hardbody coasting. i've seen you come in and lurk several times D2 without saying a word. i aint likin it

 

[mentosman8]

I'll read the walls when I get home from work. Couple things though.

@omni: I tried to make it clear, I don't think it was a bus, just telling FF not to entirely rule it out since I could see you bussing like that. Also I'm not trying to focus on flavor, i'm just trying to make sure everyone who wasn't in the original knows how very different the setups are so they don't look at the original to decide if a claim is true or not.

@FF: my main reason for being against it is that it's some murky mod wifom, and by playing this without trying to meta it we remove a chance of error that could be extremely costly if it comes up. Some people may be good enough with setups to figure things out,but in general its just mucky.

Anyway, I'll read the walls and such when I get home, that's all for now.

 

[KevinM]

I don't see a redirect ignore game as much as a why should i have to explain the same thing over and over again for the dense game.

I mean i can address things but the answers remain the same.

Halo reach is iight.

 

[Omni]

no, kevin. you didn't explain yourself which is why i'm asking for your response.

the same applied to early Day 1 when you got "upset" about me insulting your play before you go forward and do the same thing to other people's play. you decided to ignore those points on that premise

stop being blatantly unhelpful. it ain't even much to respond to.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I have last minute reading to do for class but the whole idea that "I got scum and now I'm going to act liek big man on campus" reminds me of mafia conversations i've had while playing with Tom. He liked to try to hardbody bus me so then he could parade around like he caught something. I know it's different since Chibo came up indy not mafia but it's something I just have in the back of my mind reading your posts toDay. I'm not coming in here saying I think you're the play toDay, in fact, I think the opposite.

The fact that Sue has done nothign to contribute (including Xiivi) is bothersome and would really like to hear thoughts by Sue.

People I want to do a reread when i get out of class at 2 is Rockin and Summoner.

 

[Omni]

hoping to get a modkill on Sue

and ok @ Jungle. i just dont like u coming in and throwing somewhat iffy statements around that could (will) pour more fuel to an unncessary fire especially if your actual views conflict. it seems opportunistic except well its coming from you so it's pretty normal

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

i've been inditing him as scum since early Day 1. if u just go back and read my posts alone you should see a plethora of points i have against Kevin. if you trust me in regards to scumhunting and outing Chibo (which you should) i'm hoping you'll become a bit more trusting with my judgment. tho i could be wrong but i dont think im wrong here at all

also, im a bit confused as to why you don't think he's the play in the least bit. can you tell me what you, yourself, think of kevin in as much detail as possible after reviewing his play both these Days? id like to think that i'm on the right track, and i'd like to think people i find townish to have at least a similar mindset as me. this isn't an fos on you.

Omis has been receiving blinders from me because he's been agreeing with my line of thought and scum suspicions for the most part. he's hardbody coasting at the moment and he NEEDS to start posting more actively, but as i said before to Gheb i'll happily turn a blind eye to somewhat quieter players if they're agreeing with my stances.

so to answer your question i think Kevin is the play, but there's a lot that can happen today that can change that. depending on how Omis continues to talk it could change but i have a firm grasp on Kevin right now. im pretty sure it's a good one just like last time.

Dude chill, didn't you see me say I don't think Kevin is trottin' the town trot?

I agree with you man, I don't think Kevin is anywhere close to town. However, him likely being scum does NOT automatically make him the obv. play.

Plus it was important for me to hear you clearly say you think he's scum, not the mentor, for clarity and consistency's sake.

But my point is, even though I agree Kevin is a top scum pick, he most likely isn't the mentor. That bothers me. Knowing that a mentor is around and we likely have sufficient paper trails and tells to find out who he is, I personally think we should be shooting for him today. Why? Because he can constantly regenerate his faction until he's gone and could possibly start having his faction kill if we don't constantly force him to re recruit.

That's why I don't think Kev is the OBVPLAY. A reasonable, good play, yes. The obv play. No ****in way, esp. considering we've had little to no discussion about what we primarily wanna hunt for at this point anyway.

Notice I said primarily. I'm not throwing on scum blinders and only looking for the mentor but I do think he should be a major priority.

I don't know how you possibly thought that I though that Kevin wasn't a play at all. I've been on him since before you numbskull. =P

You may be being louder than me this game but that doesn't mean you being louder undoes my "1st on Kev" squatters rights.

@FF: my main reason for being against it is that it's some murky mod wifom, and by playing this without trying to meta it we remove a chance of error that could be extremely costly if it comes up. Some people may be good enough with setups to figure things out,but in general its just mucky.

This is actually pretty reasonable but I don't know why you thought it was a good idea to call for a complete cutoff of setup discussion when by your own admission some people are better at predicting setups/using setup information to their advantage than others. Just because you might find it useless doesn't mean it isn't going to perhaps bring about answers if a couple other townies with a better affinity for that stuff bounce ideas around on the topic.

Basically what you're saying here isn't enough to justify calling for absolute silence on the topic, or at least makes it seems strange that you would do so if this was your reason why.

Still think

Chaco for what I said earlier
Summoner for super skimbrothers
Mentos for trying to meta into D2.

Those are our three solid choices.

Still ok with Omni dying.

Mac is kinda obvi at this point since he hasn't made a good post in a while.

What did mentos try to meta into D2? IIRC he's specifically asked for NO META D2.

And Mac is obvi what?

Also who's the mentor Kev?

 

[Omni]

dont mean to come off as lashing towards you, frozen. i switch to passive aggressive mode towards players i find leaning town but still have questions for (you, jungle, soon to be omis). again also im slightly more on edge because of Chibo fliping indy. makes me sad that i 've gotta reexamine the players i previously had blinders for

uhm. i guess i feel you. i mean, not really. i really dont like weeding out scummy players in an attempt to look for a certain kind of scum. scary things happen like chuckie's hypothesis on me. you're getting blinders from me too so i guess i dont mind you doing a bit of indy huntin but i dont trust myself to be able to pinpoint a certain type of scum. that's hardcore considering we dont even know the exact details of the remaining indy. there could be two remaining indys. im 'guessing' that Rufus would be Elena's mentor since he's like in charge of Shinra and i think the Turks but i dont see why Reno and Rude wouldnt be able to make a reappearance as well. but see i dont like getting into all this stuff cuz i just dont whats left and id rather shy away from that approach

so i kinda just look at my 'who can die' and 'who needs to be alive' pools and grab my pickings from there.

 

[Tom]

"Mine is special. It's good for absolutely nothing!"

Vote Count:
[2] KevinM: Omni, Dr. Riddler
[1] Chaco: KevinM
[1] Omni: Chuckie
[1] Omis: frozenflame751
[0] mentosman8
[0] Sue
[0] Nix2100
[0] Rockin
[0] Chuckie
[0] Dr. Riddler
[0] Junglefever
[0] frozenflame751
[0] SummonerAU

[8] Not Voting: mentosman8, Sue, Nix2100, Rockin, Omis, Junglefever, SummonerUA, Chaco

Last Post:
0-24hr: Omni, frozenflame751, junglefever, mentosman, KevinM, Nix, Dr. Riddler, Chaco, SummonerAU
25-48hr:
Inactive:
Yet to post Day 2: Sue, Rockin, Omis (will be prodded in 24 hours if no post)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
A deadline has been set for Saturday, September 25, Noon EST.

 

[Chuckie]

See?

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at Vanz' impression of ChuckChuckChuckoo. I haven't read the last few posts admittedly but this post has been planned for tiiiime. Wii should never work in an office let alone construct forum posts there...
_

@Omni [and for Frozen's reading PLEASURE]:- The reason I think you're a good candidate for the mentor, [independent of what Vanz thinks since wii don't really talk], comes down to your overall control, your "holding hands" mentality and your need to establish buddy-buddy relationships; exhibit a: FROZEN. Playing off-key with Chibo is a factor because I'd imagine mentees as expendable entities [exactly how Frozen described]. Also, and importantly =D, I imagine the mentor as someone in need of a decent almost non-lynchable position during the Day - wouldn't you agree then that establishing "hand-holding" is something that would naturally catch my eye regarding this? This is because I imagine you'd want to build decent relationships with players... so they won't lynch you... so majority momentum won't gain on you... etc etc... do you believe this to be a fair observation? Why not?

Adding, though this part is more wild and supplementary and observational =D... it's interesting that the very people you want alive happen to have near-identical opinions to yourself down to a T. See: Omis / Riddler / Chaco D1... These players appear to be nothing more than extensions of Android O.M.N.I. Could this be significant?, it would make sense to keep such players alive from a mentor POV because there would be no competition - could explain why you may want Kevguru dead dead DEAD being the first player that he was to oppose you (especially how quick you were to declare him the play toDay despite some players being utterly non-existent).

Wii might end up having 2 conversations btw but such is the nature of a hydra
_
_
_

FWIW @Everyone:- right now I want Chaco / Omni as the play. Chaco as scum, Omni as the mentor... possibly... I'm forever going to be tainted by TacoChaco. At the very least I want him dead before Kevguru.

@Nix:- Wii kinda wanna run you over with a toy tractor too... Don't you agree that you dying is an exciting prospect? Why was Vanz stretching? Stretching at what in particular? Plz be specific and not token drop-in-wishy-washy because wii find ur views muchas interesting! A lot of your posts feel very mechanical in content like more than one person's thoughts are behind them telling you WHAT to write. Full of 'ums'... so empty, so filler, so VAGUE.... you aren't invited to the sports hall.
_

@Jungle / Kevguru - if you're comfortable wagoning Omni then join us. What are you both waiting for?, confirmations? salutations? Wii salute you both! But Jungle... you haven't said much... wii want you to comment on Chaco toDay... what do you make of him?

@Summoner:- Tommy and Chuckie are too cute together to pass this opportunity up so hop aboard our wagon-starter and quick quick. What do you make of Frozen atm in particular? and Sue? Where the hell is Sue? I wouldn't mind running Sue over...
_

Boo hiss boo to the inactive players. WII HATE YOU ALL and will pounce on you the moment you show face
_

Chuckie you have your head in the right place thinking about mega bussing when it comes to mentees (they are LITERALLY expendable and replaceable goons. The design of the mentor mentee setup is to enable the mentor easy bus material that he'll need to help himself survive).

Problem is you thinking it was OMNI who bussed him.

Like holy wtf**** if Omni is the mentor that's the most hardcore buss I think I've ever seen ever. It's just not reasonable at all.

But you see... here you go on to describe how you think mega bussing reflects the playstyle of a mentor, but Omni's bus is so good it's too good to be true... What is the difference between mega-bussing and the most hardcore bus you've ever seen? Plz enlighten us! I'm assuming there isn't much of a difference to begin with as the terms feel loosely interchangeable... could you go into specifics with why you think Omni's bus was unreasonable? Also... our 'case' isn't solely reliant on a bus (at least mine isn't ). What do you make of it wise guru Frozen? Will you join us?

 

[Chuckie]

Um also I'm not a ventriloquist @Omni - Vanz will respond to your points directly because wii're thinking quite independently this game.

 

[Sue]

vote: frozen

his mentor list is like every weaker player and with silly reasons like 'chibo called him town' & his rage against the death of gheb is like the textbook scumity tell

mentos can still die if people are up for that

I don't see chaco v. chibo as SvI, really weird read kevin

I like chuckie/riddler/jungle

mentor + permanent aka initial mentee + a scum team seems likely actually, so I guess more people were initially town than I thought, and there's just a recruiting role

 

[mentosman8]

@Frozen: Haha in all honesty? I forgot how good you and Xiivi are with setups until you made your post about it, and I don't know if I would trust anyone else to try to outguess Tom, myself included. So, it seemed like a good idea to say at the time. This leads me into where I wanted to go next, although you already mentioned it.

@Kevin: Unfortunately FF beat me to calling you on this, but how was I trying to meta into D2? The only meta I've used at all was to point out how little meta is likely to help us. Furthermore, why are me, Chaco, and Summoner our "3 solid choices" when you immediately follow saying you're still fine with Omni? Are you implying that Omni, one of your top choices all D1, is now not a solid pick but still a potential lynch?

Regardless, I'm not with Omni play today. Not gonna rule him out as potential mentor, but I'm not feeling it and don't want to go there today.

This section was about Sue. But I got ninja'd(yay checking before I post!). Would still like the slot to be more active and descriptive before I'm not looking at it as vig fodder.

Would like to hear something from Omis for D2. Hasn't posted a whole lot and I'd like his thoughts on the deaths.

I agree Kevin is a potential play today. With Frozen that it's not an "obv play", but it's definitely one I'm considering.

 

[Chuckie]

I feel so enlightened now that Sue has spoken. Her words truly transcend time and space.

 

[Chuckie]

crashboards made me lose a few of my responses. poop.



the vote was placed on Chibo to prod him. however, he came back from V/LA announcing that he'd do his reread a few days before. i then prodded him because he updated saying "i'm halfway through" when there was only 8 pages of information to read at that point. you'll notice that i didn't have a vote on ANY of the V/LA players including Xiivi, Chibo, and i think there was someone else.

I acknowledged this, and while your chibo vote fits in with your playstyle of inactive prodding, it certainly irks me the wrong way in hindsight. Coincidence or not, it catalysed the initial push on Chibo regardless of your intentions.

bull shenanigans. like i said in my earlier post i placed my votes on players as a prod manuever. i explained to Gheb (who made this same case) that i left my vote on Chibo because he was the first person to actually look scummily. meanwhile Chibo's on the side complaning 'waaa, Xiivi did the same thing' and making super fluff, obv not town chibo statements.

regardless, me voting Chibo BEFORE calling him out on his crappy analysis would not change anything. if i had placed a vote on Chibo AFTER calling him on his crappy analysis the point remains the same except my vote wouldn't have been put on chibo in a prod like manuever originally. basically, vander, the fact that i had a vote on Chibo wasn't "convenient". it was consistent to my play style of prodding, then moving to other players as i felt comfortable.

Again, look at it from whatever perspective you like, you started the push on him.

so no this is wrong. 'accidentally' voting Chibo isn't a slip. it was a prod placement vote. interesting that you'd come to this line of thought.

I might be stretching this a little based on what assumptions I've made, but I still believe this vote may of had ulterior motives behind it.

---

that's correct. it's easily for scum to dilute into flavor talk and look like they're contributing. it's been done many times before. also, this is a tom game so his definitions of certain roles could be altered. i use to be a real heavy meta-ish type player but after getting ****** over several times for pushing it too hard i've come to realize the strongest, safest, and most efficient way to play is to stay away from too much flavor talk.

I agree, but if scum are hiding with talks of meta/mechanics, then it's our fault for not catching them. If you've seen it happen before, there's nothing wrong with letting it happen, and trying to discern motives later on, rather than tryin to squash it out like a bug.

the information that Tom relayed to us cannot be confirmed unless there's a specific role on wikipedia that matches the title of Elena. if there isn't then i'm not going to make any assumptions. that doesn't mean i won't consider what it COULD be, but since it ain't confirmable i'm not going to have that set in stone.

Nice to know, but saying not to make assumptions AT ALL sends a clear message that you don't want this sort of discussion to happen.

that's cool. i've never played in a game with a mentor/mentee.

huh, this is a bit of a twist/stretch. are you suggesting that i didn't consider the possibility of a mentee/mentor indy faction? tell me where you're getting this information because i don't think i've said nor implied it.

I was preaching to the Town in general in this section, in order to list our thoughts on the roles of mentor/mentee. Not you specifically, I never said that. No one had gone in depth about the role, and there seemed to be some confusion (or unsurity) amongst other players, including myself. I was merely relaying info about what Kat told me of the roles (and not trying to impersonate Kat, when I do that I'm much better at it lol).

a lot of ifs. high probable ifs. i don't consider to be the improper way of thinking. again, the point of just taking that role as is and trying not to assume much about it is so we could steer away from flavor discussion. this was right after i asked you and a series of players about kevin's play. i want people to tell me who's the play and who's scummy without falling back too much on flavor.

---

You were also downtalking any sort of "mentor hunting" by basically saying "kev is the play, anyone disagree?" While I don't disagree with Kev being scummy, and I'm fine with what you're doing with regards to that.

i mean, yea as you said wifom blablabla, but this is just stemmed from the possibility that you think i buss'd chibo. the real question is: do you really think i'm scummy? how would you rate my play this entire game, because you've used a total of two posts to come to the drawn out conclusion that i'm buss'ing Chibo.

what's interesting is that you've magically come to this conclusion immediately. there doesn't seem to be any... particular suspicion on me for doing so beforehand. there wasn't a process of you questioning me to solidify certain thoughts you might have. you literally jumped from point A to point B in your line of thinking and i cant see the substance of your transition.


Omni, I'm not sure if we're on the same wavelength here w.r.t what I'm accusing you of.

Assumptions aside, the nature of an independant is that while it is anti-town in nature, it differs from scum in the sense that it is uninformed (apart from its partner, which in this case appears to be expendable as we've seen from chibo, so the survival of the mentee is not like an ordinary scum buddy to say the least). It also shares similarities to townies, in that it is also the job of the inderpendant to scum hunt. And if the player is competent, their indy play should not differ too much from their town play (again, if they are actually scum hunting like they should be).

Therefore, it should be no suprise that I'm NOT accusing you of being regular scum. I'm accusing you of being connected to Chibo. I believe you're playing your town game, while bussing your (assumably) totally replacable and expendable partner. While (I presume) you are simulataneously pushing on the people for the opposite reason, of being unwillingy to lynch chibo.

I do believe and agree with you that Kevin is scummy, but WIFOM aside, I don't believe that how he has played reflects on what optimal play is for an indy mentor. To me it appears more so that he for some reason thought Chibo was town (either by being scum and knowing for sure, or town) and was hoping to look good by not being on his lynch. It's a good tactic (I did it in Dgames day 1)

what made you come to the conclusion that i recruited Riddler? i'd like to hear your in-depth analysis of this particularly strong statement since it's not backed with any support.

That was me throwing a name into the wind, but I assume a mentor wouldn't recruit someone they're trying to lynch. I think riddler would be a logical middleground recruit for an indy faction trying to live to late game.

 

[Sue]

I can't tell if Chuckie's post is serious or sarcastic.

bold: something

and then giant ninjas

 

[Chuckie]

Oh wow ninja'd by myself XD

 

[Kataefi]

Yes yes now come on aim so we can actually get our **** together finally plz

 

[Chaco]

I'm playing Halo Reach so I'll post later but, I love how people completely disreard the possibility of a Mentor headstart. It's easily possible.

 

[Omis]

Like holy wtf**** if Omni is the mentor that's the most hardcore buss I think I've ever seen ever. It's just not reasonable at all.
Its this line of thought that would make it all the more appealing for someone to hardcore buss their partners in the game. You are practically asking scum to bus other scum because itll give them a green light in your book.
I REALLY don't think he's the mentor. Omni could still def. be scum, but if he's the mentor I'll **** bricks.
Vote: Omis for now.

He jumps in on page 14 apparantly all interested in the chibo wagon once he claims. He asks some bull**** questions about whether Chibo was advocating for NL over his own lynch (which just reeks of last ditch distancing attempts) and then takes Omni's hand after Omni sees him doing some research or whatever.
Im not seeing how asking him if he wanted a no lynch is distancing. I wanted to see his opinion on it so I could better formulate mine on his. Makes sense to me. How does it scream distancing?
Omni has cool hands so Im down with taking them.
**** just doesn't jive with me at all.

And then of course the hammer which isn't anything out of the ordinary for a mentor to do to his obvplay mentee.
Again I dont see anything wrong with my hammer. The deadline was at a time that I imagine many people could not be on at so I wanted to make sure than Chibo was lynched instead of it hitting standstill or whatever because a majority wasnt reached.
Also chibo like doesn't interact with him at all until hes about to be lynch and even then it's just barely. Makes sense for mentee play.
It also makes sense for two pretty inactive players not to interact with each other much considering neither of us were doing much interacting with anything. Also I reckon that a menteee would try to interact with everyone equally so as to not leave any traces.

blahresponseblueblah

 

[Omis]

It's Wifom but you actually have to deal with **** like that in this game Omni so again I ask you, knowing how I play mafia, why would I kill the easiest buddy in the game?

It makes no sense from any technical standpoint.

Don't just dismiss an argument because you have to deal with what ifs.

I like how you are trying to pressure Omni into relying on meta because it benefits you when youve harped on him for his over reliance on it before.

let's assume it's custom made ergo not make assumptions about the role at all. don't wanna give scum an opportunity to harp on flavor

Dont dig this. We gotta think about some mechanics at least to think about what type of relationship the mentee would have had with other platers.

 

[Chuckie]

I'm playing Halo Reach so I'll post later but, I love how people completely disreard the possibility of a Mentor headstart. It's easily possible.

I love it when people say stuff and I don't know what they mean...

Chaco elaborate please!