Luigi QA - RIP Mark Dunstan "Marky-Mark"

[Vist]

i played that falco player (AJP Anton) at p4 and he actually has a really good luigi

 

[Winston]

So how do I not get trapped on the edge by foxes who wait and bair+shine a lot? That's one of the biggest problems in my game right now I think.

That, and I can't seem to edgeguard foxes who recover well. I can edgeguard fox when he up b's from anywhere below the stage level, or illusions at stage height.

I don't know how to cover: shortening the illusion, high illusion on stages with platforms, up b from mid distance and above the stage (he can either go to the edge, up above and past me, or straight at me).

Any algorithms that cover most/all options or do I just have to guess well?

 

[Ch3s]

For high fox fire you can probably use fireball and if they are too far for fireball to hit then you should have enough time to react to which way they go. Thats my 2 cents

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Against illusions onto stage/edge:

Wavedash towards edge, fireball. You will then slide off with your fireball (this works backwards OR forwards, but in this case we want to go forwards) instead of going into an unbalanced animation. Fireball cancels illusions, and you're already offstage ready to punish with the aerial of your choice.

 

[COEY]

So how do I not get trapped on the edge by foxes who wait and bair+shine a lot? That's one of the biggest problems in my game right now I think.

That, and I can't seem to edgeguard foxes who recover well. I can edgeguard fox when he up b's from anywhere below the stage level, or illusions at stage height.

I don't know how to cover: shortening the illusion, high illusion on stages with platforms, up b from mid distance and above the stage (he can either go to the edge, up above and past me, or straight at me).

Any algorithms that cover most/all options or do I just have to guess well?

First off sometimes you will have to guess, prediction is a big part of the game and more so as edgeguarding is alos a huge part of the game too.

Against foxes bair i believe if you also space bairs right back you will win, for some reason foxes bair likes to eat right through luigis dair (as does peachs nair :/).

as for edge guarding if you feel comfotable against illusions at stage height and up b's from below the stage then i wont go into them.

when fox illusions well above stage height then he will if he knows what he is doing shortern it or try and space it to platform cancel it (assuming there are platforms to cancel it on)luckily luigis f tilt is in the game. i like to cover the edge with the f tilt just incase then quickly wavedash to punish if the illusion isnt shorterned. if you can try to grab your opponent after he lands from his illusion as many players have a tendancy to sit in their shields a little long if they dont feel safe.

against illusions at edge height the f tilt can be useful again but you need not only to make sure you angle it downwards, but also space it correctly. many a time fox has hit the downswards f tilt only to instantly grab the edge so be careful. other options are to time a dair just right as fox hits the edge, or to run off with a fair with similar timing (dont try running off with a fair against falcos illusion btw, it just ends badly).

finally against up b's above stage i picked up a trick similar to something i used to see chu dat use. if you simply wave dash towards the middle of the stage from the edge and then quickly back to the edge your opponent at least at first will go for the edge but you should be quick enough to catch him with your f tilt. eventually this will stop working so if they do go above you just wavedash to follow and either try and follow up with an arial before they land or again grab in the landing/panic frames.

hope some of this helps, i play this match up quite regularly if you watrch my game play video you may notice some of the tricks i have mentioned here. good luck against that nasty rat from space

 

[Winston]

I can never hit a slight downward angled firefox to the edge with ftilt (or any other move while staying on the edge). Am I just not aiming out far enough? or do I need to downward angle the ftilt or something?

I'm starting to think the only good way to beat it is to edgehog on reaction or something.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Winston, for the downward angled firefox, you should experiment with the Drephen edgeguard (i.e., run off fair). I know Sheik != Luigi, but I feel like it would work anyway.

 

[Vudujin]

Winston, for the downward angled firefox, you should experiment with the Drephen edgeguard (i.e., run off fair). I know Sheik != Luigi, but I feel like it would work anyway.

Fair of the stage is actually a legit strat, if you're quick and get in front of them right before the spacies are recovering, their recoveries have a lot of lag time before they move, so take advantage by anticipating.

 

[4% APR]

I can never hit a slight downward angled firefox to the edge with ftilt (or any other move while staying on the edge). Am I just not aiming out far enough? or do I need to downward angle the ftilt or something?

I'm starting to think the only good way to beat it is to edgehog on reaction or something.

oh so you're winston. The end of our set in pools was so sad. You're luigi is pretty sick man, i felt bad going sheik but vudu has beaten all my other guys to where i feel like she's the only way i can win against luigi

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Gustav Wind = Winston?

WHOA.

 

[Oracle]

Nair is a great option for gimping Foxes who recover high. You can SH nair and wait for him to angle down, forcing him to angle up, and you should have enough time to jump up and punish. When they're recovering from below, a falling nair can either gimp them easily or set them up for a fair/dair, depending on the percent. The priority will almost always beat through the up B

 

[Vist]

lol gustav winston


edit: imo edgeguarding fox is pretty much prediction. If you're having trouble landing a ftilt / down-angled ftilt on fox doing a up-b to the ledge, then it sounds like either your spacing or timing is off. You have a lot of options like the ones that have already been mentioned, wd-ing off the stage into an aerial or grabbing the edge yourself etc.

 

[Winston]

Ok thanks guys. I'll experiment more with ftilt spacing and try to learn the timings.

Gustav Wind = Winston?

WHOA.

Yeah, haha. >.> I made this account in 05 or something before I decided I just wanted to use my name and I guess I never thought about making a new acc

Nair is a great option for gimping Foxes who recover high. You can SH nair and wait for him to angle down, forcing him to angle up, and you should have enough time to jump up and punish.

This sounds interesting, i'll have to try it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

My edgeguarding with Luigi is like

OFFSTAGE FAIR GO GO GO

Or I try to Dair low recoveries, ledgehop Bair, and sometimes I F-tilt. I should remember that Fireballs exist more often.

 

[1Frame_Dynamism :: Bamsey]

First off sometimes you will have to guess, prediction is a big part of the game

against illusions at edge height the f tilt can be useful again but you need not only to make sure you angle it downwards, but also space it correctly.

landing/panic frames.

Prediction ftw
Don't angle your ftilt downwards. Instead of doing that, grab the ledge. If they look like they might try to illusion to the edge, FIREBALL > GRAB LEDGE. If they're Firefoxing to the ledge, GRAB THE LEDGE on start up, then react accordingly.

LOL panic frames that's a good one. Grab when you can, especially if they illusion to the middle and you can get there fast enough (which you almost always can)
Illusioning to the middle is silly and you can always be ready for it whether it's ftilts or whatever.

If they're high firefoxing or something, feel free to jump towards them as you can cut off almost all angles with an aerial, just time a Fair to hit them out and all they can do is go straight up or something trickziez.

There is always a way to kill him, always.

edgeguarding fox is pretty much prediction.

grabbing the edge yourself.

Prediction ftw

Grabbing the edge is so underrated. Especially considering you can get half way across the stage while invincible with it. You're LUIGI!

Or I try to Dair low recoveries, ledgehop Bair, and sometimes I F-tilt. I should remember that Fireballs exist more often.

Variety is key.

Ledge dropping into Bair then DJ Bair back to he ledge is great when they're low and hopping Bair when high. Wavelanding back to the stage to punish anything otherwise. Easy.




Oh, regarding Foxes Bair wall.
Approach with Shield sometimes, but you can just usmash through it and 0 death them if they get spammy. Mix it up, you're a broken character and nobody knows it.

 

[Rappster]

can luigi chainthrow people?
it seems like his short throws + speed would make him good at it.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

I believe you can CG Fox and/or Falco or something... But to be honest it's just much more efficient to do a read and get your combo -.-

At 0: Dthrow Dsmash Nair Jab-reset UpB. It works and takes em straight to 52%.

 

[Divinokage]

Your combo seems easily escapable though lol

 

[-ACE-]

I don't see how anything could be more "efficient" than a chaingrab, as long as it's legit at any DI and you're good at using it. I really wish I knew the % range that it was guaranteed on fox/falco.

 

[Mogwai]

hypothetical situation:

imagine that Fox can chainthrow in dittoes to say 50%
and that he can usmash after uthrow up to say 55%
and that each throw does 6%

if you grab someone at 50, you should usmash instead cause if you regrab, your next step will be less profitable.


Other reasons to stop chaingrabbing include accounting for margin of error and putting them offstage.

When chaingrabbing, you have to correctly read DI and react more times that if you take a guaranteed strong attack. Taking the stupid hypothetical Fox situation from above, it's like you need to make 3 correct DI reads and grab reactions with chaingrabbing in order to get the same payoff for making 1 correct DI read and usmash reaction. In guaranteed and easy chaingrabs, this isn't a real issue, but for a lot of ones that are particularly fast and precise, it makes sense to end chaingrabs early to not **** up.

Putting opponents offstage can potentially be more profitable than continuing a chaingrab, as it can lead to a stock loss, whereas most chaingrabs do not lead to a reliable stock loss.

 

[-ACE-]

Well Mogwai, you're talking to a Ganon main that practices chaingrabbing Falco and Fox all the time, so I thoroughly understand the concept of having to read/react to DI very quickly. The bottom line is this: you're either good at the chaingrab (and thus good at reading/reacting to any DI) or you're not. The example you gave in your Fox scenario is definitely true, and so is your note about getting your opponent offstage as soon as possible.

HOWEVER, I still feel that chaingrabbing is both underrated and underused in today's metagame. I often see players opt for a tech chase instead of a chaingrab (simply because they aren't confident enough in their chaingrabbing abilities, and at the time, going for the techchase is a better option for THEM) in situations where they could have easily continued the chaingrab. With situations where getting your opponent offstage and setting up for a guaranteed combo/KO are excluded, it is best to chaingrab your opponent to the fullest of your ability; which is what I want to see more of.

 

[Jumble]

I believe you can CG Fox and/or Falco or something... But to be honest it's just much more efficient to do a read and get your combo -.-

At 0: Dthrow Dsmash Nair Jab-reset UpB. It works and takes em straight to 52%.

That's a really lame jab reset and very inefficient. Why not just grab again?
lol

I don't see how anything could be more "efficient" than a chaingrab, as long as it's legit at any DI and you're good at using it. I really wish I knew the % range that it was guaranteed on fox/falco.

The most efficient thing would be leading into a kill. Marth can do that, Sheik can do that, many people can do that. They end their CGs when called for to finish it the most efficient way, often that's after 1 grab. Luigi can do that same, as well taking few throws before executing the efficient thing he needs to set up to get a stock. Often CGs are just good for positioning and setting up what you desire. Use it until something better comes up, which is often very quickly as Luigi has many options.

 

[Oracle]

CGing is very underrated, Ace, and should be used more, but you're forgetting why people CG. It's because it's an easy, guaranteed way to X% or a stock. As opposed to a combo where you have to read DI and then input a complicated command to get the next hit, with a CG you just have to react to one of three options that your opponent has: No DI, DI away, and DI back.

With luigi's CG, however, the necessary wavedashing make it just as complicated and difficult to do as a combo, so there is a bunch of room for error. Most times it's much easier just to get your guaranteed throw-> smash and techchase or hope for a combo.

 

[weslo]

what are you suppose to look out for against Falcon?

 

[Pakman]

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Basically everything. But you really need to watch out for his nair. Because Luigi is floaty the nair is a good setup for combos. You should also be wary of any grab. You can usually beat his aerials with a wd uptilt, but if he shields he gets a free grab. Picka and choose your approaches wisely.</div>

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falcon's a gay character disguised as a not-gay character.

 

[ETWIST51294]

F U KK.

lol ****

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh hi there ETWIST, how are you?

Oh, I see you have been upset by my post.

Is it fair for me to say that you might be feeling agitated? Mad, even? Are you mad?

<3

 

[ETWIST51294]

lolololololololol

 

[Oracle]

Shiek players are never allowed to call another character gay. Never.

Especially not falcon.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

DON'T BE HATIN' ON MY JAB RESET COMBO.

I promise that it works, you just have to try it to see what I mean xD. I swear I've landed it lots and lots of times.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Shiek players are never allowed to call another character gay. Never.

Especially not falcon.

Falcon's gay.

 

[Winston]

So how do I recover against Falcon on Battlefield or Kongo Jungle? Since I can't go under the edge, I kept getting stomped. Do I just have to learn how to meteor cancel consistently? Recovering high seems pretty dangerous.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

DON'T BE HATIN' ON MY JAB RESET COMBO.

I promise that it works, you just have to try it to see what I mean xD. I swear I've landed it lots and lots of times.

He's not lying, I saw him land it.

School is too intense right now, I will get back to playing Wegee when I get my diploma.

In other news, Wiggins' Luigi is pretty legit, you guys should check out his thread.

 

[dragnet4000]

The jab-reset combo has been done (was able to pull it off once, felt awesome).

Also, Wiggins' Luigi is, like thegreatkazoo said, completely legit (albeit for some controller fumbles).

 

[ChivalRuse]

Falcon's gay.

I agree. Falcon's cheap.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

pakman teach me luigi. like as a srs 2ndary.
<3

 

[Smash G 0 D]

You can't 2nd Luigi...
You can only be Luigi.

 

[1Frame_Dynamism :: Bamsey]

You can't 2nd Luigi, it's true.
He's the most awkward character in the game compared to everyone else that he'll just **** up your game and you'll be WDing OOS to approach in the middle of shield pressure or some ****.
BE Luigi, or LEAVE Luigi alone.

For Falcon - Read the LLL thread, that should help you out.

 

[Vist]

yea falcon is exciting to watch and stuff, but i do think he's about as 'gay' of a character as most top tiers.. maybe not as gay or lame as sheik or something but still. Ridiculous amounts of dash-dance camping coupled with inescapable zero to death combos on tons of characters