Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[Irsic]

I know, that's what I was saying before. When Ness players are keeping to the air, it's relatively easy to defend yourself with PKF.

:| Now we're basically agreeing with each other.

 

[Alustiel]

Id have to go with 55-45 in ness's favor cause of that ridiculous back throw >.< that really destroys anyone above 90% i think it is other then that ness's aerial game is like....godly compared to lucas....on the other hand lucas has some very nice ground game but ness doesnt have such bad ground game either =[

 

[Kazz@]

One move does not shape a matchup. I learned that the hard way.

DAS (Double aerial shuffle) can set up combos for ness, and can punish spot doding. *cough* Nair-Nair *cough* Also, uair can kill at 100% or so. Ness' Usmash and Dsmash are nearly useless, they don't kill you until crazy percents. Bair is for killing too, so powershield and dsmash. Send out a pk freeze at the beginning of the match, then as they get out of it, send another. Then approach. Fair will kill you, it even outprioritizes your nair. I'll get more info on the matchup later.

 

[Chuee]

55-45 Lucas
Offstage gimping nuff said.

 

[Levitas]

Usmash is one of ness's better approaches, especially against lucas.

Do you guys want to keep discussing ness, or should we review a different matchup?

 

[ö&ö&ö&ö]

55-45 Lucas
Offstage gimping nuff said.

Lucas has a much better recovery than ness, but is it easy to get ness off stage?

Also, ness has a really powerful air game, so can't he gimp lucas just as easily?

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

I just try to stay grounded and use my tilts while I'm at low %. I use PKF here and there to make them consider using their magnet. When I'm ~100% I take to the air far more. As long as you stay in front of him, he can't kill you easily. Try to bait grabs, and punish when he misses.

If you can't set up the gimp, killing Ness becomes a challenge, imo. I can't think of a safe way to do it if he plays the air a lot. I'd just play near the edge, and be wary of that crazy spike. If you can force him to use PKT to recover, it's game over.

EDIT: Levitas, I'd say move on. Lucas has much more to worry about than Ness, especially since we can agree on 55:45 to 45:55 for the most part.

I'm glad we're back to discussing matchups. =\

EDIT2: Levitas, is there any chance that we'll have the rest of the matchup summaries soon?

 

[Neon Ness]

Ness' Usmash and Dsmash are nearly useless, they don't kill you until crazy percents.

Uhm... by that logic, roughly 95% of the moves in this game are nearly useless.

A lot of people don't understand the Yo-Yo moves. Their purpose is to juggle and defend. Their percent damage and KO potential are mostly irrelevant... Up Smash is for protecting aerial approaches from above when uncharged, and fends off short range attacks and projectiles from Ness' front when charged.

Down Smash juggles from behind (2 hits) and punishes sidesteppers when uncharged, and protects against short range attacks and projectiles from Ness' back when charged. Occasionally scores a KO.

I also don't understand your "send out 2 PSI Freezes at the beginning" logic.

I also don't want to sound rude when I say this, but telling people to powershield is... pointless. I'm sure if we could everyone would powershield every attack.

 

[Levitas]

lol, I guess I could get moving on matchup summaries. I haven't really done anything with that in particular since I inherited the thread, but I'll try to stay consistent with what was going on before.

Who should we rediscuss next?

 

[Chuee]

Mk
I've heard a few of us say the mk matchup isnt as bad as we think.

 

[Neon Ness]

Who's "we"?

I've never heard anyone say it was bad.

Ness has it worse by far. Once he's offstage he ain't gettin' back.

 

[c3gill]

Who should we rediscuss next?

I would like to discuss DK, Yoshi, or Diddy Kong- I think Lucas does better vs Yoshi/DK matches than the projected percentages, and I think Diddy is worse than listed.

All would be nice to discuss.

edit- 666th post- the number of the beast. Hell and Fire are supposed to be released with this post, right? :flame:

 

[Irsic]

Lucas can be pretty gruesome with bananas and they are not that hard to get a hold of, and since Lucas' dash attack is quite projected, Lucas dash attack beats Diddy's when they collide. Awesome, right? Not that reliable, but you get the banana!

We should rediscuss Diddy.

 

[prOAPC]

i agree, rediscuss Diddy

i'm good with catching bananas, the problem is that i don't know what to do with them, Lucas doesn't have glide toss, so i use jump cancel to throw them, i get no lag, but Diddy ends to far to continue the "combo"
Diddy spotdodge is ridiculous :S he can dodge a complete jab combo, even strings of dtilts

 

[Levitas]

Diddy it is.

 

[Irsic]

APC, I recommend that the moment you get a banana, unless you're in the heat of boxing - PKF camp. Now you have 2 good projectiles, following up PKF with a banana is a pretty good tactic, and blindly throwing bananas in the air, or at Diddy directly is basically just giving them back to him. His dash attack catches bananas too perfectly.

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

lol, I guess I could get moving on matchup summaries. I haven't really done anything with that in particular since I inherited the thread, but I'll try to stay consistent with what was going on before.

Who should we rediscuss next?

I appreciate it. A lot of our matchups are just not well documented, and we need a good matchup thread.

 

[~Nasty~]

i face a really good diddy all the time and catching nanas isn't the problem for me either. APC, what you do with the nanas is important. throwing them right back at him is just dumb like IRSIC said. i'm not too sure if any of you know this or not but if you pick up a banana and continuosly hold "A," you can then hit the c-stick to do a forward smash. it's a great mind game but can only be done once.. then you have to throw the nana straight down and pick it back up again. the only problem with this is your limited to what you can attack with.

 

[S.D]

Lucas has a lot of options when it comes to catching nana's and when you get one it's not a bad idea to treat it like a gyro and spam pk fire. Diddy is then limited to one banana.

Your gunna wanna spend plenty of time in the air in this match too.

 

[c3gill]

APC, I recommend that the moment you get a banana, unless you're in the heat of boxing - PKF camp. Now you have 2 good projectiles, following up PKF with a banana is a pretty good tactic, and blindly throwing bananas in the air, or at Diddy directly is basically just giving them back to him. His dash attack catches bananas too perfectly.

This sounds nice, but the diddy may just leave your banana on the ground and go for a fun RBC kill. I prefer to hold a banana for as long as I can, because having to worry about him using only 1 banana over 2 is very nice.

I really dislike playing against good diddys, because i generally play a somewhat defensive game, and i cant decide if i should immediatly attack him when the match starts or run and hide, and do a little camping myself.

It seems to me like these Diddy matches (with me, lol) are always won by whoever does better with the nanerz. If I am spacing well and avoiding his banana game, its easy to win. If hes pressuring and consistantly chaining his bananas, this match is hell. at least he doesnt have any amazing KO moves.... his spike is easily avoidable, and the 2nd hit of F-Smash can be DIed out of.

 

[~Nasty~]

i personally nair the sh*t our of a diddy so that he doesn't really get the chance to pull out any nanerz and the moment he does, i try to take them and remain in control of them. whoever controls the nanas wins though imo.

 

[Levitas]

I appreciate it. A lot of our matchups are just not well documented, and we need a good matchup thread.

Just be aware that it will take me a little bit of time to get this done. I'll try to be as prompt as possible, however.

 

[Chuee]

at least he doesnt have any amazing KO moves.... his spike is easily avoidable, and the 2nd hit of F-Smash can be DIed out of.

Diddy has a dsmash too
In this matchup keep him away from his nanerz. They are his best move and limiting him to only 1 is great.

 

[Attila_]

at decent percents (like 120ish) banana throw -> dash attack -> fair combos and kos relatively easy. attacking with nair is difficult in this matchup imo (ive had a lot of experience) cause bananas and fsmash go right through your nair and can leave you in horrible position. a solid diddy will often glide toss behind you in this situation, and follow up with dsmash or pivot grab. bananas can really screw up your tether game too...

difficult imo, but winnable, probs 60:40 diddys favor. you really need to study this matchup (and bananas in particular) if you even plan on winning.

 

[Irsic]

Considering I secondary/main Diddy as well, I'm pretty good at adjusting to banana play, and that is a bunch of Tom foolery, shmot.

Fair, being fantastically telegraphed like it is, stops all Diddy's grounded approaches and catches bananas. Nair, also fantastically catches bananas. All you need to do is learn the timing.

 

[tibs7]

I'm going to have to back up Shmot here, nair isnt as good in this matchup as it doesnt really shield poke like other chars

Irsic, Shmot said that you have to study the matchup which includes learning timing of catching naners, you pretty much copied what he said.
Shmot is no lucas noob.

 

[Levitas]

I don't know much about diddy other than he has rather short range and his banana combos never happen if you're doing it right.

 

[Attila_]

catching thrown bananas involves prediction, which, in between backwards glide tosses and dribbling is quite difficult against a skilled diddy (tibs is one of the best in aus and i play him all the time). not to mention if you leave one around, youre open to barrel cancelling and baited attacks.

banana combos rely on pressure and overwhelming an opponent, which is relatively easy when you can control a stage like a good diddy. all it takes is one little misprediction or slight error and you get comboed to oblivion. no one can be perfect the whole time, either

 

[prOAPC]

i catch bananas with SH Airdodge mostly

 

[Chuee]

Nair is good for approaching because it auto cancels so it has 0 landing lag. Diddy won't punish nair unless he grabs you.

 

[Irsic]

I'm going to have to back up Shmot here, nair isnt as good in this matchup as it doesnt really shield poke like other chars

Irsic, Shmot said that you have to study the matchup which includes learning timing of catching naners, you pretty much copied what he said.
Shmot is no lucas noob.

I didn't call him a noob, I was kind of joking in my post. Though what I said is it's not as difficult as banana game is as he was portraying it to be, because Lucas' disjointed attacks beat out Diddy's approaches. I said nair is good, he said it's not necessarily.. That's not a copy.

catching thrown bananas involves prediction, which, in between backwards glide tosses and dribbling is quite difficult against a skilled diddy (tibs is one of the best in aus and i play him all the time). not to mention if you leave one around, youre open to barrel cancelling and baited attacks.

banana combos rely on pressure and overwhelming an opponent, which is relatively easy when you can control a stage like a good diddy. all it takes is one little misprediction or slight error and you get comboed to oblivion. no one can be perfect the whole time, either

This generally pertains much more on FD, which should be banned anyway in a tournament match vs. a Diddy player. On a stage with platforms, you can play it stay and stay in the air, and get a hold of bananas much easier.

Like I said before, if you get a hold of a banana, you don't just turn offensive and start playing like you're Diddy Kong. You start PKF camping, and when you get him into the position you want you can use the nana. The reason this works so well is now you have a banana in hand, Diddy is now limited to one banana, making your PKF camping much more effective as it's harder for Diddy to stop now.

 

[Attila_]

of course platforms make this match up easier, but smashville and even battlefield are also among diddy's best stages, and you cant ban everything. grabbing a banana and pkf camping is a good idea, but is challenging against a solid diddy on the offensive. dont underestimate his peanuts, either.

and like i said, stopping a banana approach is always hard, because he's fast and you never really know exactly what he's going to do (unless your vsing a noob). start nair/fair early or late and you get smashed to pieces. time if right and potentially do damage. you can try this, but if theyre mixing it up its really quite difficult. dont get me wrong, i think nair is fantastic, but it can be punished my bananas and/or smashes in this match up. autocancelling normally takes some of the risk away, but isnt nearly as effective here. i think dair is actually th best way to counter an approach; if you stay diagonally up from his youre out of banana range, and should be able to get away without being punished if youre spacing correctly and autocancelling.

 

[Irsic]

The thing about platforms is it makes bananas 10x easier to intercept if you're going for that...which you should be. I play Diddy, and the only time I feel at a disadvantage on BF or SV is when my opponents know how to intercept bananas with the platforms.

The deal with timing an aerial to catch the banana is to not just throw your aerial out there. IF the Diddy player is being conservative or trying to dribble and fake you out - You can A) NOT approach at all or B) Bait the banana through just plain SHing around and C) wave bounce your **** PK fires (most effective on BF because it's small)

Yes I know Diddy is a tough match up, but there are a lot of ways around bananas through patience.

 

[BigBrawler]

I play a good amount of Diddy kong players and it is true that you can get around their banana game with with patience, SH and shielding bananas but something people forget that diddy kong is still a beast without using bananas. Lucas depends a lot of ground tactics and diddy seems to have a lot of moves to counter most of the moves in the arsenal. Also I've noticed people mention Nair a lot, it's true that against someone who doesn't know lucas this is very effective, however Diddy's Fair beats our Nair and Fair.

The best thing about fighting Diddy though is that he doesn't take too much to get him off the stage and from there ledgeguarding is pretty straightforward (even against some of the best didy players).


Something i have tried a few times is to use the projectiles to keep spacing away from the bananas. For me this is a good time to alternate wavebouncing with regular PKfires in order to stay more unpredictable.

 

[Chis]

Hey Lucas'. Please help us with this discussion to see weather Sonic is better then Lucas or not. This is NOT a match up thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226950

 

[c3gill]

why do the DDD boards list the Lucas-DDD match-up as 60-40 them, but on here it is listed as 55-45 us? someone needs to slap them.

and Ive been having Olimar troubles, id like to see him discussed or G&W, as some people have brought up that the match-up isnt as bad as 80-20 suggests.......

 

[Maniclysane]

why do the DDD boards list the Lucas-DDD match-up as 60-40 them, but on here it is listed as 55-45 us? someone needs to slap them.

Probably because it is 60:40 D3's favor. Waddle dees go through your PK fires, b-air spaces you guys really well, and every grab is like, 30%. Plus, I'm sure we have some grab release on you guys to finish off our chaingrab. I don't see how this matchup could be even.

Really? 65:35 v Jigglpuff? You've got to be kidding. Pound probably out prioritizes most of what Lucas can throw at her. Her grabs can all get Lucas in the air, her aerial mobility is fast enough we could easily weave in, Bair, and retreat, and continue to do this. With 5 jumps, your recovery isn't much of a problem. We should probably rediscuss this matchup.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Waddle dees go through your PK fires,

no. no they do not.

b-air spaces you guys really well

i guess u forgot PKFire.

I don't see how this matchup could be even.

because you're not looking at our Nair and combo ability. and our jabs our faster than anything DDD has at a close range.

Really? 65:35 v Jigglpuff? You've got to be kidding. Pound probably out prioritizes most of what Lucas can throw at her. Her grabs can all get Lucas in the air, her aerial mobility is fast enough we could easily weave in, Bair, and retreat, and continue to do this. With 5 jumps, your recovery isn't much of a problem. We should probably rediscuss this matchup.

i'll let Veril answer this:

We've already established you don't know anything about Lucas.

 

[Chuee]

Probably because it is 60:40 D3's favor. Waddle dees go through your PK fires, b-air spaces you guys really well, and every grab is like, 30%. Plus, I'm sure we have some grab release on you guys to finish off our chaingrab. I don't see how this matchup could be even.

Really? 65:35 v Jigglpuff? You've got to be kidding. Pound probably out prioritizes most of what Lucas can throw at her. Her grabs can all get Lucas in the air, her aerial mobility is fast enough we could easily weave in, Bair, and retreat, and continue to do this. With 5 jumps, your recovery isn't much of a problem. We should probably rediscuss this matchup.

ok
The matchups is 55-45 our favor not theirs.
Waddle Dee does NOT go through PKF at all.
Bair is good but our PKF spaces better.
Every grab is not 30% more like 20% or something. DDD has a Ftilt out of grab amzing right.

The jiggz matchup is our favor because we have PKF and our amazing ground game. PKF does go through pound but i've heard that rising pound can get around it. I don't know much about jiggz but this trust me, our ground game beats jiggz by faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar.

 

[Levitas]

Jiggs actually isn't really our favor, especially not 65:35. It's probably more like even.

everything else maniclysane said was a little less than completely informed.