Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[Levitas]

PK fire isn't much of a probelm for us.

Quick moves are great, ness has a significant disadvantage if we're humping him.

He kills us at 120-130 like clockwork.

I see it as almost exactly even.

 

[ToxiCrow]

lets keep in mind that we hav better recovery options than ness does. he relies soley on PKT and its so easy to gimp him. either absorb or jump into it

and not only that, but the recent GR stuff we're working on really helps us out (most notable is GR to ftilt)
while the GR re-grab is escapable, the window is very small. grab->pummel->release->grab->pummel: u get the picture.

Lucas>Ness on ground
Ness>Lucas in the air
there's still more to be discussed, but right now i deffinetly dont believe that ness has the advantage

edit: as for his PKFire: i always jump out of it. if it hits my shield, i'll jump cancel and use PSIm

 

[Levitas]

I think it's more like when ness is in the air, ness > lucas. when ness is on the ground, lucas > ness.

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

Can't Ness also use PSIm to help him recover? I saw a vid of him using PSIm to recover, and he didn't need to use PKT at all to get back.

Toxi, you got logic-ed by Levitas.

 

[ToxiCrow]

can u show us the video? he might've doublejumped before using PSIm

 

[Levitas]

PsiM only puts ness in 40 some odd frames of lag. it does stall his descent a bit.

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

http://allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=8217

Now, I'm not so sure about it.

 

[_clinton]

http://allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=8217

Now, I'm not so sure about it.

People don't seem to know how much that actually matters for Ness' recovery...it really only helps make him less easy to read...

Fun Fact...Fair adds to Ness' 2nd jump horizontal range...in fact...it is about as much as that magnet boost...but at least that is faster...

 

[prOAPC]

the problem in this matchup is that Ness is good without using his projectiles, while sometimes Lucas depends a lot on his pk fire

 

[_clinton]

How is 10 frames to a start up any use for 8% or so? Just be somewhat careful with the use of it...

I mean really...Ness' PSI Magnet is just there for the most part...it reminds me of Olimar's pikmin pluck in a way...

 

[Irsic]

When Ness is in the air I don't really fear the PsiM, and Ness is in the air a lot. What I hate about this match up is how defensive I have to play. Generally have to wait for Ness to whiff an attack before I can swoop in with a nair and start comboing his ***.

 

[Levitas]

clinton, what move are you referring to? lucas's PsiM starts absorbing on frame ten, but doesn't hit till later (17)

 

[ToxiCrow]

should we summon the Ness mains?

 

[MeLL0W]

Lucas has the ground and Ness has the air I would say for the most part. Staying on the ground makes Ness's annoying F-Air less of a threat but grabs are the part we look out for the most in his game. Id say any projectile he has is nothing to worry about just keep moving. Nair combos might help since his SH is the same as ours the follow up combos can ensue some decent damage before we prep up our smashes. In the air or when recovering becareful on your recovery choice as he can pretty much get us from above and below and a spike thats almost impossible to survive doesn't help with the pressure. I would say watch closely to his movements and recover accordingly. Id say because of Ness's slight advantages in the air and ground it makes this match up either 50-50 or 45-55 in Ness's favor.

 

[Levitas]

huh. nobody came when I said we were talking.

Someone else go and make a racket. Just don't start a new thread or I guess I'd have to close it, lol.

 

[Tyr_03]

I didn't look through this very carefully to see if this is mentioned, but Lucas technically has an inescapable chaingrab on Ness. Grab -> Grab release -> spaced Dtilt -> Regrab. If you space it just right, Dtilt trips almost 100% letting you regrab. You can do this in the 10 frames allowed. Dtilt to Fsmash works as well. It's difficult to get down but gives Lucas a nice advantage if you can pull a grab off and it's better than just an Ftilt.

That said, I think Ness has a slight advantage. He is far superior to Lucas in the air and it makes a big difference.

 

[MrEh]

I didn't look through this very carefully to see if this is mentioned, but Lucas technically has an inescapable chaingrab on Ness. Grab -> Grab release -> spaced Dtilt -> Regrab. If you space it just right, Dtilt trips almost 100% letting you regrab.

Or Ness can just get a jump release.

 

[Tyr_03]

Ness can't get a jump release if you're pummeling correctly.

10fails

 

[Levitas]

Tyr, spaced dtilt has about a 50% trip rate.

 

[c3gill]

Ness can't get a jump release if you're pummeling correctly.

Even assuming that, Ness still has some decent advantages over Lucas.... anything aerial comes to mind, and a B-throw. As far as i am aware, Lucas' only big advantage lies in his recovery option, and he has a slight advantage on the ground, and that is just because of power. Ness is just a lame fight.... I play it prepared to PSI Mag at all times free health is always nice, in any fight.

 

[Tyr_03]

It is definetly not 50%. If I had to guess I'd say 80% atleast. I've done this CG across Final Destination multiple times tripping every attempt. I haven't done the testing myself but I would have to see numbers to believe that it's 50%.

 

[Levitas]

I'd give you numbers, but it's really easy to test yourself.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Or Ness can just get a jump release.

Even assuming that, Ness still has some decent advantages over Lucas.... anything aerial comes to mind, and a B-throw. As far as i am aware, Lucas' only big advantage lies in his recovery option, and he has a slight advantage on the ground, and that is just because of power. Ness is just a lame fight.... I play it prepared to PSI Mag at all times free health is always nice, in any fight.

THESE BANANA TREES

on the ground, lucas is so much better. i hav no trouble fighting ness. i bait the PSI-m (when their off stage) with PKT, or PKfreeze, and even if they do absorb it they will stop and hav to use PKT2. from their, i'll either absorb their PKT or jump into it to gimp.

if i grab, i'll regrab and pummel again or use ftilt. and as Tyr'd said, you cannot jump release when pummeld.
grabmindgamesforthewin

:omelet:

 

[c3gill]

on the ground, lucas is so much better. i hav no trouble fighting ness. i bait the PSI-m (when their off stage) with PKT, or PKfreeze, and even if they do absorb it they will stop and hav to use PKT2. from their, i'll either absorb their PKT or jump into it to gimp.

your assuming that ness will absorb the PK Freeze or PKT- what if he predicts what your doing, and PKT2s to the edge, while your messing around with your PKT projectile? Ness' PKT does travel quicker than ours, so unless you are literally on top of them you could be giving them a free ticket back to stage.

 

[xoxokev]

...I'm not too sure about this match up

 

[Irsic]

Problem is with Ness vs. Lucas, is Ness is only at the advantage when he is in the air. As soon as Ness lands, it's an opening for Lucas. This match up is a must - play defensively for Lucas, again, as Ness is more forced to approach than Lucas is.

 

[Tyr_03]

I'll test it tomorrow if I have time to find the numbers. Even if it is only a 50% chance of tripping, it's a 50% chance of doing 3% damage and an Fsmash or Dair if you want to rack up damage or lead into Dtilt to Usmash. I think it's worth the risk to make it better than just Ftilting.

 

[Levitas]

That's true, especially if they're in KO range.

 

[ToxiCrow]

your assuming that ness will absorb the PK Freeze or PKT- what if he predicts what your doing, and PKT2s to the edge, while your messing around with your PKT projectile? Ness' PKT does travel quicker than ours, so unless you are literally on top of them you could be giving them a free ticket back to stage.

lets say he doesnt absorb it: then he gets hit with our best edgeguarding tool and now he has to travel further to come back on the stage. remember: curving PKT pushes the opponents away.

if he sees our PKT coming at him and tries to use his PKT2: even tho his does travel faster, i dont think he'll curve it in time to avoid being hit. our PKT would've already hit him.

what to do: play defensively. he can approach alot easier than we can (fair and dash are both pretty safe) but we have the tools to keep us safe.
i'm going to look more into this match up before posting again.

 

[MaJiK]

you should update the first page with all the things that can and can't happen to lucas and who he does it to

 

[_clinton]

Problem is with Ness vs. Lucas, is Ness is only at the advantage when he is in the air. As soon as Ness lands, it's an opening for Lucas. This match up is a must - play defensively for Lucas, again, as Ness is more forced to approach than Lucas is.

May I ask how so when it comes to approach? Also I don't see Ness' ground game as being that bad...but whatever

 

[tocador]

Lucas Ground Games vs NEss Ground Game:


Lucas Ftilt, nuff said.

 

[_clinton]

Lucas Ground Games vs NEss Ground Game:
Lucas Ftilt, nuff said.

Ness' Ftilt is overall a bland move though...

And of course Lucas' Ftilt is good...god it out ranges G&W's Down and Forward tilts overall...still one comparison isn't enough...because Ness does beat Lucas in a few areas as well overall

 

[Irsic]

May I ask how so when it comes to approach? Also I don't see Ness' ground game as being that bad...but whatever

[/quote]

How does Ness approach then? Fair? This is where the match is basically even, because if Lucas is spacing better than the Ness player who is putting himself at risk, Lucas waits for that opening.

Also, when Ness is approaching from the air, it's easy opening for PK Fire. Approaching from the ground vs. Lucas is just a bad idea overall for Ness.

 

[Uffe]

http://allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=8217

Now, I'm not so sure about it.

Hilarious. Using my video. This was found out way back I think in Melee. Of course I never saw anybody else do this except Fox players, so I just adopted their idea and used it with Ness. This actually saved me from things like F.L.U.D.D. and/or Water Gun. Lucas can do this, too, but it's not really neccessary for him to. Anyway, if we're going to talk about gimping, both characters can do this to each other. After all, not every Lucas main uses a Zap Jump.

the problem in this matchup is that Ness is good without using his projectiles, while sometimes Lucas depends a lot on his pk fire

That's basically true which is why I really never used PK Fire or Thunder as often like seven months ago. When I use Lucas, I tend to use more PK Fire as a defense.

Problem is with Ness vs. Lucas, is Ness is only at the advantage when he is in the air. As soon as Ness lands, it's an opening for Lucas. This match up is a must - play defensively for Lucas, again, as Ness is more forced to approach than Lucas is.

This is horrible. Ness isn't only at the advantage when he's in the air. His ground game isn't that weak. And Ness isn't forced to approach and vise versa. Also, Ness' only approach isn't his fair. That's actually quite predictable if that's the case. And if he were to approach that way all the time, all the opponent would have to do is shield grab.

Overall, Lucas can be tricky and I've seen it. Both characters are pretty similar, so it's kind of hard to say where this match up lands. Some say 55:45 in Ness' favor or 50:50. Which ever one it is, the match between the two still end up close. So if it's in Lucas' favor, whatever. It's fairly close to 50:50 anyway. You can say one has a better ground game than the other and vise versa. It doesn't really matter. If you ask me, it looks like Lucas has more options in the air than he does on the ground. His nair, fair and dair are all good in my opinion.

 

[Irsic]

I'm actually arguing for that 55:45 Ness favor to be turned to 50-50, even. I don't think either of them has the advantage.

And it's not that I don't think Ness doesn't have any other approach options, it's that Lucas has to wait for an opening, and once we get that opening ... :\ **** gets real. My point is more about the fact that Lucas actually doesn't have an approach in this match up, rather than just defending himself, camping, and waiting for that opening.

 

[Uffe]

Believe it or not, Lucas can approach. He's probably got better options, too. Now I don't main Lucas, but I've used him to win certain matches I had a hard time doing with Ness, which is strange how that ended up working, but I was usually the one who made the approach. I've even done this against a Ness main. Lucas can come at Ness with nair, fair, possibly dair and PK Fire. At any rate, I can see this being 50:50 as this is fairly similar to ditto matches. Both characters have a slight unique playstyle, but they're not too far from different.

Both characters have their own move sets in a way, but both also have almost the same projectile. Ness' PK Thunder is equivalent to Lucas' PK Fire while Lucas' PK Thunder is equivalent to Ness' PK Fire, if you can understand where I'm going with this. Exploiting what the characters can do with methods like B-sticking do however make them pretty different, though, though this was probably not meant to be. Anyway, despite what you believe on approaching, I'm sure Lucas can make the first move if he wanted to.

 

[Zodac]

who has a worse ground game than ness?

puff and ....

???

 

[Irsic]

PKF is not an approach. >_>

Ness generally have to be on the ground for us to approach, or you have to be in the lag of a different aerial, or on the ground. It's rather difficult to get through Ness' air priority with our lack of priority. You're approachable from underneath with uair, assuming our uair and your dair don't trade hits, in which case it's not even worth it.

 

[Uffe]

Hm. I was thinking of PKF as more of a defensive attack, if that makes since when you use B-sticking. That's usually what I'd go for. And Lucas' uair vs Ness' dair isn't probably the best choice, but it all really matters whose attack came out first and Ness' dair actually has start up lag. If anything, Ness shouldn't be using uair against Lucas since Lucas' dair is I guess disjointed. I think if you're going to approach from underneath, you're better off in my opinion using nair instead.

Of course some Ness mains don't even use the air like they should and most Ness mains usually short hop. So if we're short hopping, you can use PKF. Using PKF too much will make us dodge or absorb, though. However, that's all easier said than done.