~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[PSYCHE]

I think he said "aggresive Samus=pwn."


As for Green Greens, I personally just hate the stage in general.

 

[Crystanium]

You're right, PSYCHE. I think this video will show you all what I mean.

 

[dguy6789]

Lucario is great at killing vertically. Upsmash and up air will both KO just fine if your % is reasonable.

Besides this, the level has extremely small edge boundaries, the roof isn't the only way to kill easy.

 

[Timbers]

Lucario is great at killing vertically. Upsmash and up air will both KO just fine if your % is reasonable.

Besides this, the level has extremely small edge boundaries, the roof isn't the only way to kill easy.

Upsmash is terrible for kill purposes. I had to say it =\ Uair works but honestly where do you find most, if not all of your kills from? Uair is not considered as a main killmove in Lucario's arsenal. He simply lacks vertical killpower when compared to Snake, Fox, Wario, Olimar, Zelda, etc. Putting him on a stage where he benefits little with the low ceiling as far as killing is concerned, and disadvantaged even further by his poor vertical resistance, and you have an unhappy Lucario.

Bair is about your only good killmove on this stage. If you're properly spacing fsmashes, they're usually going to be right behind a wall, allowing them to tech. Same with aurasphere.


Also back to the "Lucario needs to live longer than other opponent. Other opponent does not lose all of his killmoves when they die." Close blastzones make it hard, especially against a character that should normally be struggling to kill you.

 

[dguy6789]

I kill with upsmash and up air all the time. Not as much as some other moves, but they are used quite often against some people.

Lucario at 100% or higher, his up air kills probably better than Fox's does. Upsmash has a kind of slow startup time, but it is far from useless for getting kills. It is best used when the enemy has used both of their jumps and is falling from being high up and you meet them when they land. The move's high priority, large hitbox, and lingering attributes make it perfect for this. These are not moves to use when you are under 100% though, not for getting a KO.

You can throw most people off this stage from the edge with a good degree of effectiveness with forward or back throw. Aurasphere spam deals with the wall issue if those bother you.

 

[Samuelson]

I use Samus occasionally and i hate using her on Battlefield because it is hard for me to spam projectiles. Hopefully this helps a little bit

 

[Timbers]

Upsmash won't kill people unless they land right on you in the initial frames. The linger hitbox is considerably weaker than it's startup. It's good to add damage and keep people in the air, but it's not going to kill anyone unless their aerial DI just plain sucks.

Fox's uair will kill, I think, 15-20% earlier than a 100% Lucario's uair would. Also he has his usmash, which is ridiculously good in killpower.

Samus backthrow is relatively the same knockback as Lucario's. Also tethergrab.

Not sure why I'd be breaking down walls when Samus is attacking me.

I use Samus occasionally and i hate using her on Battlefield because it is hard for me to spam projectiles. Hopefully this helps a little bit

It's been said, Samus isn't that great of a spam camper. BF is probably one of her best neutral stages though. She can combo you very well here.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Lucario is great at killing vertically. Upsmash and up air will both KO just fine if your % is reasonable.

Besides this, the level has extremely small edge boundaries, the roof isn't the only way to kill easy.

Lucario with anything less than 100% is one of the worst vertical KOers in the game.

 

[dguy6789]

I was incorrect. Lucario's up air at 110% = Fox's, not at 100%. Lucario's up air kills Snake when Lucario is at 123% and Snake is at 140%, to give more of an idea of it's power.

Fox's upsmash is a better vertical ko move than anything Lucario has though.

 

[Crystanium]

I use Samus occasionally and i hate using her on Battlefield because it is hard for me to spam projectiles. Hopefully this helps a little bit

All I can say about this is wow. I mean, Battlefield is Samus' best friend. Perhaps you rely a bit too much on projectiles. Try out some f-air, u-air, z-air.

 

[dguy6789]

Lucario with anything less than 100% is one of the worst KOers in the game.

Fixed.

10char

 

[PSYCHE]

I would think any stage with a lot of platforms would be good for Lucario, since it stops the spam, at least the missle spam. I don't know anything about Samus' playstyle, but that's just what I would think.

 

[Crystanium]

I would think any stage with a lot of platforms would be good for Lucario, since it stops the spam, at least the missle spam. I don't know anything about Samus' playstyle, but that's just what I would think.

Not quite. It just minimizes it. For example, if you fought Falco on Battlefield, he wouldn't be standing in one spot, spamming his Blaster away. He'd likely jump to fire his Blaster, but it wouldn't be in a consecutive manner, since he would land on the ground and then jump again to perform it all over. Or, he could just jump on a platform of the same height, but that wouldn't mean that his opponent would stay on the platform.

 

[Timbers]

A campy Falco is a ******* on Battlefield. 'nuff said. shdl under a platform and he's completely safe with his shine.

 

[Lawn]

Can Samus still Super Wave dash or do the grapple extension thing?

Also, how likely is it that Samus will try to switch into ZSS in the middle of a match?

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Can Samus still Super Wave dash or do the grapple extension thing?

Also, how likely is it that Samus will try to switch into ZSS in the middle of a match?

The only time she could do it is right after she got a kill on you otherwise you could punish her pretty much wherever you were. MAYBE if she knocked you off the stage and then did it but why not try to edge guard you and kill you then change instead of switching...?

 

[dguy6789]

Samus switching into Zamus mid match is very unlikely, but if they do, it is nothing to worry about. We'll get to Zamus when we do.

 

[Timbers]

Zamus is next week.

Super wavedash (and wavedash), as well as the grapple extension are both not in Brawl.

 

[LP4Life666]

We should swap friend-codes and brawl before we get up to Snake. I want to see what advantages/disadvantages Lucario has vs. me.

Anyone interested?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Not all of Snakes weaknesses are apparent on wifi. Are you familiar with the most popular way to juggle snake without fail using Arua sphere? Its a tactic which involves abusing Snake's landing lag, and the timing might be too hard to do the juggle with lag.

 

[Timbers]

Not all of Snakes weaknesses are apparent on wifi. Are you familiar with the most popular way to juggle snake without fail using Arua sphere? Its a tactic which involves abusing Snake's landing lag, and the timing might be too hard to do the juggle with lag.

You can't infinitely juggle Snake, even off of wifi.

He can reverse cypher to escape any auraspheres, and then bair the oncoming ones with ease.

You'll get two auraspheres off at a time, at best. Anymore than that and you're playing against bad Snakes.

LP4Life, where do you live?

 

[Jeepy Sol]

I think Samus has been disected pretty thoroughly. I'll update it tonight, and if we think we have everything, we can get started on ZSS tomorrow or the day after that.

 

[Timbers]

Yeah, it doesn't seem like the Samus boards have much else to say about the matchup either.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

OK, I've updated the Fundamental Moves Section, which just leaves the Recommended Stages section. I wasn't sure of the general consensus, so I left it blank. Once we get that discussed, we can move on to ZSS.

And as of now, I'm thinking the match-up will be 65:35 in Lucario's favor.

 

[Samuelson]

ignore this post

 

[Tomkraven]

ZSS is quick and her tilts are amazing. She can combo well and is extremely good in the air. I personally don't like her smashes except for her Dsmash. Bair and Uair are good killing moves. She uses her Up B in the air to do really strange combos so if she is below you try and air dodge so you don't get pulled down then kicked back up. ZSS mains love their Side B (including me), it is a very good kill move but kind of predictable. Her grab range is great but if she misses it is very punishable. I never see any ZSS use Nair or Dair, Dair has too much landing lag and im not sure what is wrong with Nair. She is the 4th fastest character in the game (tied with Sheik). Her armor at the start of game will mess you up if you're not careful, ive killed my friends within 30 seconds before. Her Down B is very powerful so watch out for that when trying to gimp her recovery. If you are edgehogging she can pull you down to death with her Up B, of course she will die also but it feels so good to take someone down with you. A lot of her combo game uses her paralyzing attacks.

Here is a good video showing off what ZSS can do

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_FLq2Kl4jH0

nice adition to the database but we are still in the reconmended stages of regular samus... i think that jeepy said that we will go on after we finish this character.

 

[Samuelson]

O my bad...lawl. I guess i just got a head of myself.

 

[tedward2000]

Rainbow Cruse for a counter stage in Lucario's favor.
Theres to much movement and terrain for Samus to effectively pull off some ranged combat.
and the longest time for her to pull it off, would be during the ship part.

Secondly she jumps slow, so gimping is always a possibility. But if you try to frequently, expect some Up-b to get you.
This will remain a very movement/aerial battle. So skills mean nothing when the platform you where going to vanishes.

So try to remain on solid ground, and keep samus jumping around. And only Extreme speed when you know the ground your going to is new.
And near the peak of the "ride" before you get back on the boat. That little part has a very low ceiling. This is where you want to keep from being thrown or hit into the air. A dash or Uthrow at a medium % will kill Lucario. But the same goes for samus.
This part is danger prime.
-t2

 

[Kasai]

Rainbow Cruse for a counter stage in Lucario's favor.
Theres to much movement and terrain for Samus to effectively pull off some ranged combat.
and the longest time for her to pull it off, would be during the ship part.

Secondly she jumps slow, so gimping is always a possibility. But if you try to frequently, expect some Up-b to get you.
This will remain a very movement/aerial battle. So skills mean nothing when the platform you where going to vanishes.

So try to remain on solid ground, and keep samus jumping around. And only Extreme speed when you know the ground your going to is new.
And near the peak of the "ride" before you get back on the boat. That little part has a very low ceiling. This is where you want to keep from being thrown or hit into the air. A dash or Uthrow at a medium % will kill Lucario. But the same goes for samus.
This part is danger prime.
-t2

Seconded. Rainbow cruise is a very good counter pick against Samus due not only to the fact that she can't camp well or even at all in some situations but also her slow jumping makes it easier for you to outmaneuver her in the constantly moving stage. In addition, her zair will have less of an impact on the match because the approaching game will be altered dramatically.

All in all, it takes away what samus wants (ground to camp and force approaches) and gives what lucario wants (lots of somewhat random aerial encounters that won't allow for the proper setups that samus wants (like forcing an approach into a zair)). Also, you can't forget that with all the platforms, spiking becomes harder but at the same time, Lucario's gimping potential isn't hurt as badly due to her slow jumps which will be going off constantly


As for some other stages,

Good counter pick

Frigate Orpheon : Platforms to somewhat avoid her camping and during the first half of the stage, she will be hard pressed to recover on the side without a ledge. On the downside, the little platforms in the 2nd half of the stage can and will save her at times.

Jungle Japes: Protection from her spike, she can't camp as well due to the different level platforms and her somewhat poor recovery might allow an early kill from the rushing water.

Pokemon Stadium 1: Personally I think this stage is an OK option. You are able to avoid the projectile spam and in some situations force her to be up close constantly. In addition, you can stage spike nicely here with dair.

Luigi's Mansion: Protection from her mainly upwards kill moves. Teching can lead to a nice aura boost and the walls protect from spam. Overall a really good stage.



So-So

Battlefield: Decent. Some ways to avoid the camping but at the same time they make you vulnerable to zair. Not the worst pick but much better options are available.

Lylat Cruise: See above.

Halberd: See above

Green Greens : Protection from camping and easy to kill off the side with dair due to the very close blast walls.

Norfair: Neutral I think. Hard to camp on but at the same time, the platforms make it really easy for Samus to zair spam.



Aviod

Final Destination: Camping

Smashville: Same as above

Yoshi's Island (brawl) : See above

Delfino : I would avoid this one. Good camping potential with the walk offs and she can gimp better than you can due to the water at some points.

 

[Timbers]

I don't agree with Cruise.

Basically, she has a better recovery than you do. There are plenty of times where she's able to spike you, and can pressure you into the walkoff blastzones with her tethergrab or zair. Plus we mentioned that she has arguably one of the best spikes in the game, and this is true. She has great aerial DI, making it a walk in the park to spike you out of any ES you attempt to make, or just being over you in general.

Samus cannot camp you. Anything out of her zair range is going to get her stomped. FD=great stage for you. Camp her. She's forced to go over the auraspheres (or powershield through them) which leaves her in a bad position. If she's getting a hail of projectiles thrown at her, she can't space with zair. It's that simple. Kitamerby hit the nail on the head with it. Samus can't camp, not against a player with superior projectiles (which is like everyone lol.)

FD and Luigi's Mansion. Both are huge stages, both let you live longer than usual.

Avoid Battlefield.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hmmmm...just wondering, but why would you use ES on Rainbow Cruise in the first place? Seriously guys. How's about NEVER. That's not a necessary move on this stage. And although Samus does have an awesome spike, she really can't spike you to your death on this stage, because there are platforms all over the place and she'll MOST LIKELY hit you onto one of them. Just be careful where you position yourself. The low ceiling part can be camped too. Just move around and wait for it to move and then attack her, or be aggressive and throw her off to the side. Or do an up-throw to immediate uair, that would probably kill her, depending on your % and hers.

And yes, the up-smash is an excellent KO move. But not against Samus. 'Nuff said.

 

[Timbers]

If I was pressuring Samus, or any character, I'd be more concerned to keep that pressure on them as long as I can. I don't make the stage scrolling my top priority. There might be a time where I use my jumps to pursue the opponent instead of Diing towards the next platform. Maybe I'm too overly agressive on this stage? I don't know. Having to run away most of the time during the scrolling segment sounds boring to me d=

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Aye, it sounds boring to me too. I only meant the part right at the very top. I wouldn't camp it out and run away either, for the record. I was thinking of only one specific area of the stage, not the entire runway at the top. Her camping sucks, so you can just approach her and be aggressive anyways. Just don't try to OUT-camp her, it won't work.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Alrighty, Samus is complete. If there's anything you think I missed or did wrong, please point it out. I put the match-up at 65:35 in Luc's advantage.

In case you haven't noticed, we will now be doing characters in rotations, not weeks. Once I feel a character has been properly analyzed, we will move on to the next one, which in this case is ZSS.

So, the ZSS discussion begins now!

(Also, Timbers, if you could update the chart, that'd be great. For some reason, my computer won't let me open it.)

 

[DuskMarthWater]

That's a good idea Jeepy. Me like.

I'm too tired to give any info. right now, so I'll do it later...

 

[Samuelson]

ZSS is quick and her tilts are amazing. She can combo well and is extremely good in the air. I personally don't like her smashes except for her Dsmash. Bair and Uair are good killing moves. She uses her Up B in the air to do really strange combos so if she is below you try and air dodge so you don't get pulled down then kicked back up. ZSS mains love their Side B (including me), it is a very good kill move but kind of predictable. Her grab range is great but if she misses it is very punishable. I never see any ZSS use Nair or Dair, Dair has too much landing lag and im not sure what is wrong with Nair. She is the 4th fastest character in the game (tied with Sheik). Her armor at the start of game will mess you up if you're not careful, ive killed my friends within 30 seconds before. Her Down B is very powerful so watch out for that when trying to gimp her recovery. If you are edgehogging she can pull you down to death with her Up B, of course she will die also but it feels so good to take someone down with you. A lot of her combo game uses her paralyzing attacks.

Here is a good video showing off what ZSS can do

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_FLq2Kl4jH0
Edit/Delete Message

 

[Timbers]

Stay away from the fricken down smash. I'm serious.

Jeepy I'll update it.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/mootmootmoot/LucarioMatchupChart-1copy-4.png

Also going to post the thread in Zamus board.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182311

 

[Samuelson]

I forgot to mention that her Fair hits twice and it is very hard to hit twice at high percents.

 

[dguy6789]

Don't get hit by her side B.

 

[Timbers]

F-air is damage racker, it's hard to kill with unless you time it so that only the second kick hits =\

-Approach
It kinda sucks. Her shorthop is too high to effectively approach with her aerials. Expect shorthopped sideB, neutralB into dash attack, dash attack into jab/utilt/dtilt/ftilt.

-Defense
Is alright. SideB has outrageous range on it. Is predictable as all hell, but spaces well. If you whiff an fsmash, expect to be punished by one of these. HER GRAB SUCKS LOLOLOLOL. Abuse it. It has such an obscene amount of startup lag on it. You can literally dash attack her shield and then grab/jab before she can grab you.

JAB COMBO ISN'T A COMBO LAWL. Seriously. You can perfect shield the third jab and punish her.

-Killmoves
Bair, uair, sideB

-Fundamental moves
Her biggest game right here. Revolves around dsmash and neutralB (stun gun) Dsmash->Dsmash->grab/uB/bair/fair/uair. Expect these. They're one of the very few true combos in the game. And they hurt A LOT.

Stun gun (neutralB) into dash attack/grab/sideB.

Dash attack->1 jab->dtilt is common. Her jabs don't combo, so expect jab to tilt a lot.

Her approach sucks, and her defense is pretty mediocre. All of her damage comes from the stun gun and down smash setups. Seriously.

And watch out for the downsmash near the ledge, please. It's a free ledgespike for Zamus if she catches you out of invince frames/you try ledgehopping.


There's actually a lot to talk about Zamus, but I hope people have a general idea of what she can do. It's a lot, and I don't have the time to really write a novel about her game. It's easily one of the most indepth movesets in the game though.