~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[phi1ny3]

I like the notion of Olimar, I've heard mixed things about the matchup, and it would be great to clear it up.

 

[tedward2000]

Oh man, review time then....

Sheik.
(s)he's a ninja.

Back for another time, and counter ego of Zelda. Sheik is quite different then zelda in many ways.One being killing power. Two beingable to rack up damage. The two seem to be the polars to that.

Sheik loves to run up to you, pull your pants down and run off giggling. She's got more of a penetrating, poke and jab thing going for her, that is not fun for lucario's. Then when your far away, she'll throw needles at you. Tons of them. However, AS's beat needles. Her smashes lack full-out killing power, but later in the match, are fast enough to where that doesnt matter. Her tilts are awesome, very awesome.

"F-tilt, Nuff said."

Her recovery isnt as long as Zeldas, and it does do damage, which used right, can make for an interesting edgehogging tech. It is lack luster and can fall prey to cario's EShoggin. Also, because she cannot kill, (but rack damage instead) lucario will get stronger faster and still live. Which is not good for Sheik but great for Lucario.

Over all, its tipped to Lucario if solo. But Sheik has it easier fighting him then Zelda.

-tedward2000

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Sheik loves to run up to you, pull your pants down and run off giggling.

XD wtf? Ted is too good!

I'm updating right now, by the way.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I like the notion of Olimar, I've heard mixed things about the matchup, and it would be great to clear it up.

If I were to pick a match up I was most curious about, it would be Olimar.

Yoshi boards have been confused on the match-up for a while on how much we **** them or something of the sort.

Olimar or Yoshi seem like good choices.

 

[Mmac]

We're doing Lucario right now actually on our Matchup Board

 

[Max Ketchum]

Good thing Sheik's ftilt barely hurts Lucario at all. Jumping out of it after two or three hits and retaliating with a dair is too good.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Hmmmmm.

 

[tedward2000]

XD wtf? Ted is too good!

I'm updating right now, by the way.

haha, thanks Jeeps.
I try.
XD
-t2

 

[Snowstalker]

EDIT: Never mind. Sorry.

 

[Alus]

is it just me or does shieks arials suck? i just dont know

Good thing Sheik's ftilt barely hurts Lucario at all. Jumping out of it after two or three hits and retaliating with a dair is too good.

is that the only way to retaliate? there must be more than one way, otherwise its too predictable that your going to use (in this case) dair.

I learned this the hard way -_-

and can you get out of it earlier? That shiek is going to learn to use usmash after one or two hits and one of those smashes MIGHT hit.

But i have no experience against shiek (I wonder why...)






Another question... is that f-tilt all that shiek can do?

 

[Browny]

compared to Lucario's... theyre pretty average

 

[phi1ny3]

Her bair and uair are imo the only meritable ones I like using, tho fair does have some power. Also, can't a sheik just finish off a few ftilts with a utilt/usmash? I do that all the time, it racks up really well.

 

[Conclusively]

FTilt : DI Towards, and hope you get lucky. If not, be prepared to take huge damage from a nontipper to a tipper usmash, or just a tipper usmash. Common followups are another FTilt, Jab, Utilt, Usmash, Grab.

Needles : Fun. Stops a lot of approaches. One needle is enough to screw you up. Sometimes, it turns you around too.

Aerials : Fair to edgeguard, like Lucario's. Relatively low KB. Nair, better knockback, kills at around 140. Bair, good for edgeguarding with decent KB. Uair/Dair, rarely used.

Vanish : Pretty good killer. Probably kills Lucario at around 130. Watch out for Vanish glides.

DSmash : Used quite frequently. Comes out quick, hits around Sheik, decent KB. Used also when a Sheik needs time to change into Zelda to get a kill.

 

[-Mars-]

Conclusively just summed up everything you guys need to know in this matchup.

One thing though........Sheiks grab game isn't great persay but it is very easy for her to land grabs...... due to her speed she can do a lot of stuff with pivot grabbing as well. Just something you should be aware of.

 

[TK Wolf]

On a bit of a tangent, if anyone wants to add to or correct anything in my Luc vs D3 comments, check them out here:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=422039#p422039

 

[Timbers]

The lag on Nana's defensive actions like shielding and spot dodging, makes it so that with lingering and rather large hitboxes, they are extremely easy to separate. There is a great deal of satisfaction in this matchup since you will pretty much be hitting one Ice Cimber or the other one with great success.

Climbers still aren't fun. They're tolerable, but by no means fun. You're still required to camp the hell out of them or risk a face full of downB or sideB, and if they're desynched it results in a free grab.

Still tolerable. They're not as gay as the likes of DDD.

We're doing Lucario right now actually on our Matchup Board

i will check it out

iis that the only way to retaliate? there must be more than one way, otherwise its too predictable that your going to use (in this case) dair.

I learned this the hard way -_-

and can you get out of it earlier? That shiek is going to learn to use usmash after one or two hits and one of those smashes MIGHT hit.

Dair won't hit Sheik if she finishes it with a utilt. If she attempts anything else once you're free to dair then she'll be punished, unless she throws up shield and punishes you instead. Generally it's just a good idea to jump out ASAP. A sheik that knows the matchup will know how to react to any offensive maneuvers.

On a bit of a tangent, if anyone wants to add to or correct anything in my Luc vs D3 comments, check them out here:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=422039#p422039

Responded. You were pretty much spot on except for the "bair outlasting Luc's airdodge." I wasn't sure what you meant by that unless you meant that spamming bair would catch Luc's vulnerability frames.

 

[phi1ny3]

On a bit of a tangent, if anyone wants to add to or correct anything in my Luc vs D3 comments, check them out here:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=422039#p422039

lol, improving the metagame discussion on AiB is like _______ (fill in the blank please).

 

[TK Wolf]

lol, improving the metagame discussion on AiB is like _______ (fill in the blank please).

I was bored. xD

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Mmmm, I took the ACT 2 or so weeks ago Jeepy. It wasn't as scary as everyone says, but it was LOOOOOOOONG. Took forever. 3 hours of non-stop testing isn't much fun.

Well anyways, I guess that everyone in here wants to do Olimar next? I'm gonna affirm that Jeepy, so if you wanna switch, go to Olimar.

 

[phi1ny3]

ACT is long, plus I have a bone to pick with the SCIENCE! questions in the test, I hate them (even tho I do well in them).

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Yea...the SCIENCE! questions are really stupid. They only measure how well you read graphs, nothing to do with actual SCIENCE! Whatever.

 

[IceDX]

Wich character are we disscussing ????

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm pretty sure we wrapped up Sheik, so I don't know, tho I like the idea of Olimar.

 

[indianunit]

yes i say olimar. now lets start...now.

right now.

now.

 

[tedward2000]

Jeeps!

Where are you going with this. Its been some time, and ppl are getting restless.
Its only my personal point of view, but I suggest you get going on a character before things start falling apart again.
-t2

 

[Destati]

me, the random person, seconds Olimar as well. Both have great aerials, but who comes out on top? I also wanna see what people think about Lucario's gimping stategies against Olimar's... poor recovery...

 

[phi1ny3]

In the meantime, let's discuss a matchup that has really troubled me, one that no matter how much I try, it outcamps, outgimps, and outtechs me. That's right:

THE BIRDS.
ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ
What to do? They can wavedash without hacking the wii, they aim poop at ur head INTENTIONALLY, and they yell "SPARTA!" while trying to kick/push you down a hole. Sure, you can hold them off with birdseed and "madness", but they'll be back... to **** the match.

 

[Destati]

It all depends if whether or not the bird is indeed the word. Science has only come so far.

 

[BluePsyberian]

Pit Vs. Lucario.

Ok even though i just started playing...OmegaXF have use match ups that are not in my favor aginst Lucario and ill do well even though I dont play it proly...but then he matched me up with PIT...and i couldnt do anything unless I keep close to pit and even then that made it all the much hard becuase from far he spamed arrows, and when i spamed he sent it back then if i were close I got either grabed or hehehehehyaaaaa...(I dont know what bottons those are so the sound was the next best thing). and after that he would go across the board and the process was to repeat itself...now I know it my be training for me...but i fill that pit is a 40/60 with pit.

 

[Timbers]

Blue, read this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201487

 

[TK Wolf]

Okay, we need this thread to start running again.

Lets discuss Diddy Kong now, and Jeepy can guide the discussion whenever he gets back / has more time.

 

[Greenpoe]

indianunit suggested Olimar, so...

I think it depends on how well you can predict him. He has options for any of what you can do. Roll? Olimar D-smash. Approach aerially? Up B or up-smash. Aura Sphere spam? Outcamp'd. F-smash works decently well, though. See, if you can predict him, you can do well. If he's using d-smashes whenever you get close, you can shield it then grab him. If he grabs a lot, I'm not sure, maybe SH-fair him if you can?
DT owns his forward B.
Keep him in the air as much as you can. Olimar's biggest strengths are his smashes, grabs, and camping ability. In the air, he loses all of this, not to mention he has a pathetic recovery, but he CAN stage-spike you! If you're invincibility frames have run up, his Pikmin tether, if timed properly, will hit you and can take you down, too.
If he tries to grab-combo you, jump out of it ASAP.

 

[TK Wolf]

Okay, fine, let's go with Olimar. At this point I don't care who it is as long as we're progressing. Unfortunately I don't have any legit Olimar experience, so for the most part I'll have to sit back and watch like I did for Shiek. And take the following with a grain of salt, since again, I haven't played any good Olimars.

All I know is:
- utilt usually wipes all pikmin off you at once
- As long as Olimar doesn't have a purple pikmin coming up, you can rush him while he's throwing pikmin at you. Alternatively, you can jump and dair/fair them, then rush while he has to pluck more.
- Attacking his pikmin then putting pressure on him can work well, as he won't be able to pluck before he gets you away.
- Olimar offstage is dead unless he's high up, just make sure he doesn't hit you with his upB. You can use a ledge attack or roll to get some temporary invincibility as soon as he starts the attack. If he is high up, AS will force him to AD, which you can usually punish.

 

[manhunter098]

Yeah, you can as long as you dont have a White Pikmin on you, use double team and when it damages you it will activate, it gives a nice option for a different method to KO than you usually would have. I find f-tilt pretty useful for fending off Pikmin coming at you, so you can pretty much just walk towards him and f-tilt the Pikmin as they fly at you.

 

[DanGR]

Lucario eh? There's not much to say. It's pretty straightforward.

Lucario has trouble approaching. Everything can be pivotgrabbed with ease and fair>dair gets too predictable. Lucario has to pressure Olimar to the edge of the stage before he can get some good shots at Olimar's defense.

When he finally gets a hit in, he can combo decently, but not to the extent he can combo most characters. Remember, Olimar is light and floaty, and WAC can stop everything that's not a true combo.

In the killing department he doesn't fair too well.

Gimping at low percents isn't very realistic because Lucario's attacks generally knock his opponents at an upwards angle, making it easy to DI up and get back to the stage without even having to use his second jump. To make it even easier, Lucario doesn't have any multihit attacks that Olimar can't WAC through in order to get back to the stage.

As for killing through knockback...
-Lucario can't take advantage of Olimar's floatyness (off the top kills) because he doesn't kill vertically very well.
-Considering how fast Olimar racks, (simple 30-40% grab combos) how low he kills, (purple upsmash will kill at around 90% normally- even lower on low-ceiling stages) and how hard it is to hit him in the first place, (his defense) it'll be hard to take advantage of Lucario's Aura ability.

So yah, that's about it from Lucario's standpoint.

 

[Kitamerby]

All I've noticed is that it's easy as hell to gimp him so long as you don't Fair every time (such as leaping at him, then doing a Dair as he whistles nothing and eats a dair).


Getting into Olimar is tough, but nowhere near as tough as people makes it sound. I've also noticed his light weight makes him a prime target to being thrown around quickly, and that keeping him in the air is almost always the best option. Also, I've noticed that Olimars have a sort of weakness when it comes to throws. Once you get inside, I've noticed that the Olimars I play almost always try to shieldgrab or something, which would be fine if we didn't have a Dthrow that allowed them to either DI offstage to their doom, or to get hit by a heavy followup... :3


Other than that, I think we should be gimping him at the same rate he'll be killing us, if not faster.

Personally, I'd put it 45:55 Oli's favor, but many people insist it's 4-6. <<

 

[Milln]

Pretty much everything in DanGR's post is wrong and blind assumption. Doesn't even warrant argument since he'll just ignore it stubbornly, just like everyone else defending their character in a matchup topic.

I suggest we treat him like Simna. But for everyone else's purposes:

Lucario eh? There's not much to say. It's pretty straightforward.

Lucario has trouble approaching. Everything can be pivotgrabbed with ease and fair>dair gets too predictable. Lucario has to pressure Olimar to the edge of the stage before he can get some good shots at Olimar's defense.

This is incorrect, but at the same note, why should Lucario bother approaching? Lucario doesn't need to approach, but if he feels like it, it's still possible. You act as if Fair > Dair is all Lucario has and that's misguided and just proves you've never fought a good Lucario. (Any attempts at a cheapshot at me, I will deny and point out two things: I gimped myself in a match I would have clearly won(taking the set) if I hadn't curved too soon. 2. I wasn't as good as I am now.)

When he finally gets a hit in, he can combo decently, but not to the extent he can combo most characters. Remember, Olimar is light and floaty, and WAC can stop everything that's not a true combo.

Not sure why this matters. Whistles still give you damage for later and the only aerial you have that's near instant is Nair; a short range move. Lasting hitboxes make sure that if you're near the ground, you're still getting hit unless you gtfa.

In the killing department he doesn't fair too well.

This is the biggest lie i've ever heard.

Gimping at low percents isn't very realistic because Lucario's attacks generally knock his opponents at an upwards angle, making it easy to DI up and get back to the stage without even having to use his second jump. To make it even easier, Lucario doesn't have any multihit attacks that Olimar can't WAC through in order to get back to the stage.

Pretty much everyone in the game's attacks knock everyone at an upwards angle. Not using your second jump is optimistic. The first true statement you've said so far is that there's nothing that hits you through Whistle. So? Who cares? How about make you whistle an Aura Sphere and then run out and hit you with an aerial right when you come out your super armor or air dodge frames? You are one stock less and it will happen.

As for killing through knockback...
-Lucario can't take advantage of Olimar's floatyness (off the top kills) because he doesn't kill vertically very well.

Up-air, Up-smash, Up-Tilt, and technically Force Palm Grab. Up-tilt is unrealistic, but it can still happen. Then again, Lucario players don't really try to go for the vertical kill when it's much easier to kill to the side.

-Considering how fast Olimar racks, (simple 30-40% grab combos) how low he kills, (purple upsmash will kill at around 90% normally- even lower on low-ceiling stages) and how hard it is to hit him in the first place, (his defense) it'll be hard to take advantage of Lucario's Aura ability.

Giving us damage doesn't exactly hurt us and don't assume you will have the upsmash, from a purple, at 90% every stock. It's not really difficult to hit an Olimar... not sure what you're trying to convey. Pikmin aren't invulnerable shields and can be knocked away and killed very easily to make you waste about a fourth of a second picking another one.

So yah, that's about it from Lucario's standpoint.

No, Firstly that's not even from Lucario's standpoint. That's from a blind Olimar main's standpoint. the Lucario's standpoint is me telling you that you don't understand Lucario.

 

[TK Wolf]

I don't think I've seen Milln angry before. o.o

 

[Milln]

I don't think I've seen Milln angry before. o.o

*opens arms for cuddles* =o

 

[phi1ny3]

*opens arms for cuddles* =o

I thought we went over the whole "spikes on the arms/chest" thing. Were u planning to kill them?