No, I luff Pupsie. ;.; I would've turned to the side.
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~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~
- Thread starter Jeepy Sol
- Start date
tedward2000
Smash Champion
*Edited cause of jerk move*
-t2
-t2
TK Wolf
Smash Ace
*hugs and tailwags* x3
But hey, we're supposed to be super-chill here, Milln. Even if Dan was wrong or assuming things... I think you were too hard on him. At least he took the time to post info for us. D:
Hmph. No one gets upset at Timbuhz when he makes angry posts. D=
He didn't post information. >,>
Lawlalwalwlawlalw.
I'm not gonna post again, even if he rebuttals, because I hate matchup topics, so there's nothin' to worry about. DocileMilln is Docile.
Wow, wtf @ Ted.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
TK Wolf
Smash Ace
Aw, Milln, your advice and input is really valuable! And I don't see Timbuh flame, but if I do I'll prod him about it. ^^:
iRJi
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 2,423
Yay I get to post for this one. From me playing black walts a lot in tornament and in a sh*t ton of friendlies I can safely say this match up is in Olimars favor 55:45.
Olimar is a small character with alot of walling potential. Very underrated if you want to put it that way. He fights mainly with a vertical and horizontal attacking system that is very hard to be beat by any other character ingame. Lucario's attacks also hit in a vertical and horizontal motion but Olimar has the advantage due to his attacking speed and range. Lucario has a difficult time hitting the blind spot of Olimar, which is at a 45 degree angle. On the floor Olimar has an advantage over Lucario. When Lucario is stuck by one of Olimars pikman he can not shoot an Aura Spear until the pikman is released making it nearly slim to camp him as one of Lucario's options, But in return Lucario can Double Team as much as he wants until the pikman vanishes.
To win this match Lucario has to apply pressure and keep a very high momentum base gameplay. If he can do that then we can knock him off the map pretty quickly, and you know what happens when Olimar is off the map... Gimp City.
It is a 55:45 because of Olimars ability to wall like a monster.
PS: Idk if we completely finished the Shiek section but if we did can we change the title of the thread to olimar please? lol.
Olimar is a small character with alot of walling potential. Very underrated if you want to put it that way. He fights mainly with a vertical and horizontal attacking system that is very hard to be beat by any other character ingame. Lucario's attacks also hit in a vertical and horizontal motion but Olimar has the advantage due to his attacking speed and range. Lucario has a difficult time hitting the blind spot of Olimar, which is at a 45 degree angle. On the floor Olimar has an advantage over Lucario. When Lucario is stuck by one of Olimars pikman he can not shoot an Aura Spear until the pikman is released making it nearly slim to camp him as one of Lucario's options, But in return Lucario can Double Team as much as he wants until the pikman vanishes.
To win this match Lucario has to apply pressure and keep a very high momentum base gameplay. If he can do that then we can knock him off the map pretty quickly, and you know what happens when Olimar is off the map... Gimp City.
It is a 55:45 because of Olimars ability to wall like a monster.
PS: Idk if we completely finished the Shiek section but if we did can we change the title of the thread to olimar please? lol.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
:O
I could back up all my points and clarify some things that you've misunderstood, but now...
why bother?
*hugs @ DanGR* Are you going to Final Round or any tournaments January onward? I can't go to anything since it's Quarter 4 and i'm management. >,< But I liked hanging out with you and everyone else from Alabama. And Alabama needs some Tin Pin Slammer.
@Everyone else: I don't really understand how what I wrote is a flame. Also, we haven't been chill since the Chat topic got locked, so I dunno what you're all talking about.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Did you just impale DanGR?
No. The only things even slightly biting are my first and last comments.
It also doesn't make it a flame.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
o0
omg, I think he did. It was an accident, nothing a little duck tape can't fix.
and I went a little overboard of what I said about/at milln.
So my apologies and sorry's.
=(
-t2
TK Wolf
Smash Ace
It wasn't a flame, and I didn't mean to imply that you flamed him. I was just really surprised by the first few sentences, I didn't mean to try and get on your case or make you out to be a jerk or anything. ;_;
I ruff my Milln! D:
*opens his arms to hug Milln*
I ruff my Milln! D:
*opens his arms to hug Milln*
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
no, he didn't impale me, lol.
Honestly, I'm getting sick of tourneys. It's about beating MK from around quarter-final's onward. It's not fun anymore.
bludhoundz
Smash Ace
For those of you who didn't get it...
Lucario has a spike on his chest.
Hugging someone would lead to stabbing them, unintentionally.
Lucario has a spike on his chest.
Hugging someone would lead to stabbing them, unintentionally.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
"Unintentionally?"
Anyway, A lot of what I heard here doesn't make sence compared to my knowledge of Olimar or my knowledge of lucario, and I play both.
Olimar's pikmin will always cancel any projectile, but they will never penetrate an attack. They may very well have both absolute and 0 priority, as I it like hitting a character, not an attack.
The Olimar will most likely need to respond to your Aura sphere spam. Abuse pikmin throw as an AS counter, it is extremely effective in this matchup.
Do not get distracted by Pikmin throw when Olimar is in the air. Olimar is giving you opportunities to use your most powerful attack, as a pikmin guarentees the counter's activation. Also, you need your focus on Olimar to make sure you don't get punished with an Aerial for responding to the pikmin throw.
Attack from the air seems to be effective, and the angle is good.
It is rare for Olimar to use his teather to counter stuff, so 45 degree angles are your freind, in addition to Dair cancelling out up smash.
Ideally, you want to be hit by pikmin throw, and are likely to get such an opportunity when olimar recovers or is forces to respond to AS spam with a move that cancels it. Even if you can't hit with the counter, you can use the reverse counter to shield grab him. Unfortunately, AS is not very useful in this match because Olimar cancels it out well. Even SH AS can be easily countered by SH pikmin throw. The good news is that Olimar's smashes and pikmin throw can't penetrate multi hit moves, so you'll find quite a bit of use for the AS charge attack.
Serious about that last point. you can test it with Pikachu's neutral a. pikmin have no and total priority in an odd way.
EDIT: Note that the best thing about using Pikmin throw for Double Team is that the Olimar almost completely stops using pikmin throw. This gives you a lot more defencive options than before, when Olimar coud attack you with the same attack he used to cancel aura sphere, forcing you to approach. The counter tactic works well to motivate Olimar to stop using long-ranged tactics (out of fear of getting DT), so lucario can choose between offence and defence - a useful edge against a tough character like Olimar.
Timbers
check me out
You need to hang around here more often. One of the few that make sense around here.
This was way ignorant Infi. He posts his summary to help us, and you totally ride him off and act like he isn't even worth your time.
On top of that your post was even more inaccurate than his. From memory, the only thing he mentioned that was inaccurate was Luc's lack of vertical killers. He's normally lacking in the department, but a character as passive as Olimar while airborne (at least against aerial dominance like Lucario) makes it relatively easy to bait in uairs and usmashes.
-Lucario has to approach Olimar. There is no possible way Lucario can outcamp Olimar. Lucario's safe approaches on Olimar is fair, really. He wasn't out of line to say that. Obviously dair isn't the only followup to an fair, but he got it half-right. All of Luc's moves are unsafe on block when grounded thanks to his fast and lengthy tether (except fsmash on a few pikmin. I don't know the range specifics) and he's small enough where dairing his shield puts you insanely close to the ground.
-KILLING IS A PROBLEM. Olimar's relatively easy to gimp but without the gimp he has tons of survivability with his walling options. All of Luc's killmoves are really slow, and are outranged by Olimar. Pikmin kill auraspheres, fsmash is outranged by grab (except purples) and fsmash. Bair is nice in this match. Thanks to it's long startup you can catch airdodges and whistle cancels quite well. Because Olimar has to be extremely passive when returning to the stage, it makes for some easy pressure. But yeah, Olimar is by no means easy to land killers on. You can't outspeed or outrange him, and his walls keep Lucario out of his blindspot so well. You're really banking on some lucky kills here.
-Whistle cancel is also a problem. Really why would you ride it off like that. A character that does so well on the ground, you want to keep him in the air as long as possible. Whistle cancelling destroys this, and yet you ride it off as "well at least we got free damage"? If he falls right through you with the whistle cancel, you're now above him and he's on the ground. A very unwanted position to be in.
It is definitely Olimar's favor, but to say even 60:40 Oli may be stretching it. 55:45 Oli is a more comfortable number I think. It's worth noting that both Oli and Luc can counterpick each other extremely well.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
I think Lucario has an advantage against Sheik because he can contest her speed. They are both close range fighters with a lot of combo/follow-up potential, but Lucario basically just beats her in priority and strength. Sheik wins matchups by controlling the matchup, which is what she can do to beat slower top tiers like Snake, Dedede, and Donkey Kong.
Lucario, however, can stop many of her close range moves with his utilt, jab, and very good shield grab.
IMO, 60:40 Lucario, coming from a former Sheik main
Lucario, however, can stop many of her close range moves with his utilt, jab, and very good shield grab.
IMO, 60:40 Lucario, coming from a former Sheik main
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
I disagree, and yet I agree. If you use DT and reversed DT, which you should do often in this matchup, Olimar will not be able to use Pikmin throw. Even if he shields the Double team, the attack combos into grab-out-of-shield strings. Thus, he will be forced to approach at least within his quite large grab range, and then camp a mere shorthop away.
Samuelson
Smash Lord
Ive beaten lots of Olimar mains and i have never once done that DT trick....
Timbers
check me out
This still adds damage to you, and Olimar will always be lagless to shield any activated DT.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Yes, but you're not only trying for the DT damage; your also going for a grab out of DT. It's a free 10% or upwards; at the very least you'll get in a grab out of an invincible approach. It also changes Olimar's style; he doesn't want to give away free approaches.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
Oh lol, I thought the conversation was supposed to be about Sheik now.
nvm.
nvm.
Timbers
check me out
Ok look, DT is as punishable as any other move. If you think you can DT into an Olimar and grab them before they can grab you back, you're mistaken.
This **** was cool when brawl like first came out and Olimars were bad and didnt know that pikmin set off DT. Now, if anything, they pray that the lucario is bad enough to keep DTing their pikmin so they can get a free 12% grab out of it. Their grab is like 5x longer than Lucarios, not sure what makes you think it's safe.
yeah our apologies, the thread creator hasnt changed the discussion yet for whatevs reason.
TK Wolf
Smash Ace
If it's spaced properly... doesn't Luc have invincibility frames until the attack completes? But I guess that means Luc would still have a frame disadvantage since Olimar could start the grab before the attack ends so his grab hits the first frame after DT ends.
DT still doesn't sound very appealing to me, though.
DT still doesn't sound very appealing to me, though.
manhunter098
Smash Lord
I still think that its very nice to have the option to DT more often in a match, when you have to predict an attack in order to use DT it looses a lot of its effectiveness. But when you can activate it frequently under conditions that will occur rather often it adds another move to our arsenal, something that would normally be almost totally non-viable against other characters.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Vid please? Everything on youtube is kinda old or doesn't have the Lucario doing double team, or both. I am curious about this now.
EDIT: What makes me think it's safe is invincibility frames, shield stun, but mostly the fact that I've never seen a vid in which an Olimar does this.
I'm sorry Timbers, but could you explain this matchup a little more? The way you described it, it sounds like Lucario has a terrible matchup against Olimar (70:30 or worse): Lucario must approach Olimar. Olimar excels at the ground game (virtually anything we can do at medium range is punishable). Olimar can easily get back on the ground due to the whistle (among other things)...so, what can Lucario do against Olimar?
Don't get me wrong, I've fought plenty of Olimar's before, but I don't understand why I won when I did. Theoretically, Olimar has a massive advantage (Lucario must approach, but all his approaching options are punishable).
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Technically, Lucario DOES NOT NEED TO APPROACH necessarily. Double Team, in spite of what many people here think, is a viable option against Olimar Camp Tactics (Pikmin throw), unlike any other matchup Lucario has. It is effective for countering the camp, as Olimar's do not want to give you the DT nor do they want you to get a DT approach into a shield grab.
The olimar boards had a very interesting description of the matchup, in which they favored Lucario. Put simply, Lucario can cancel their up-smash, and will want to approach from above, and they want to make the battle a horizontal one.
I am curious to see if Olimar can grab through a double team, though. Vids?
manhunter098
Smash Lord
Double team is really not a viable approach option for Lucario, all Olimar has to do is jump and hit you with an aerial as it ends when you are vulnerable. Double team is still definitely useful in this matchup, but not for an approach.
That's true! I've never seen double team punished, and I've played/seen plenty of Luc vs. Olimar games (I have three friends that like Olimar), unless the Lucario did made a bad decision after the DT.
So Lucario's basic gameplan can be...
Outcamp Olimar. His F-smash isn't good enough to keep up AS spam, right?
Forward B? Double team! (Obviously you shouldn't do this in a predictable way, but mix it up, double team, then hit him.)
Feel like approaching? Approach from above, dair his u-smash, then dair and hit him!
In the air? You're good!
He's off the stage? Toss some projectiles if you'd like, then edgegaurd!
manhunter098
Smash Lord
You make it sound like approaching from above isnt incredibly obvious. If you are coming at him from the air all he needs to do is roll dodge, which is not exactly easy to punish when you are above him.
Timbers
check me out
You are vulnerable when DT ends. You are not invincible throughout the entire afterlag. I don't know the exact time that you lose invincibility, but it is before you come to a complete stop with DT. It was suggested that you could grab right out of this, which for some reason you're under the impression that an Olimar wouldn't see you start a DT, watch it activate, watch the attack frames come out, and get grabbed. No.
I don't know how useful DT is in this matchup in general, I try not to experiment with the move much, but as an approach it's a definite no. Olimar will be lagless with all of his walling options, and Olimar can throw a shield up on any move he does before DT's hitframes come out.
I was only responding to Infi's summary, which was mostly pro-Lucario.
Lucario does have gimp options on Olimar. Olimar's priority in general is really funky. You should be able to outprioritize a lot of his stuff, most notably his air game. This puts Olimar in a very passive state, which allows you to force Oli into bad positions. Whistle cancel can burden this, but it's also a curse on the Olimar player. It's very easy to punish any anticipated whistle, with little to no risk to the punisher.
I'll be honest, I'm still unsure on numbers for this match. I think both of the characters and their players don't know the matchup nearly as much as we want to give either credit for. I've seen Olimars get away with a lot of stupid ****, as well as Lucarios. I've yet to see a Lucario or Olimar play on the top of their game. Theoretically speaking, Olimar can continuously move around and camp Lucario, as his approach options are relatively easy and predictable to see coming. Luc's approaches are hard to mixup, but the tradeoff is they're safe ones. Olimar can just punish them a lot better than most chars.
Lucarios I don't think deal with Olimar's camp game as well as they can either. There are a lot of repetitive motions for the Olimar to keep his wall up. When you see like 4 pikmin on the ground from being thrown, that's an opportune time to approach Olimar.
It's a huge waiting and spacing game for both of these characters, and yet the players that do play them (myself included) oftentimes become too offensive, rather than waiting for an opening. Lucario can't do anything without exploiting Oli's pattern, and then keeping the momentum going.
Numbers are way too hard for me to throw on this match. I personally think we need to research this matchup more before finalizing a summary on it. Besides DK, this is the first match we've had that I think is going to look really flawed if we come back to look at it in 6 months time.
Olimar rolls while Lucario is above? Lucario can still double jump, or do something riskier like AS or FP.
Now, let's say you pushed Olimar to the edge (a pretty reasonable assumption). He can only roll toward you, you can double jump and bair him (works better than it sounds). What if he pins you to the edge? Turn around, jump toward him, dair-dair approach. If he rolls away from the edge, you can double jump-bair him.
Now, I now some of these things are somewhat risky/punishable, but hey, mindgames are mindgames. IMO, the key to this matchup more than anything is unpredictability.
Wait...Lucario has more than one safe approach? I know Fair-dair-double jump away is safe, but what others does he have that are safe?Timbers said:
Timbers
check me out
Dairing a shield is like never safe. There's some chars with too poor OOS options, but its generally bad to try and dair someone's shield. If the fair is shielded I'd try to back off.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Like I said, Olimar has a lot of dubiousness in the matchup vs. Lucario, and lots of vague stuff gets thrown around, like DT. This is why I thought this would be... interesting.
Oh, and about my two cents. I find DT occasionally useful, but it's more of player error more than anything else really. About offensive abilities, I find Lucario getting a more safe approach to Olimar, though Olimar has better defense options with the crazy usmash, camp, and grab options. I guess there's a weak spot in the 45 degree mark, but they sometimes use upB to let u know that they can still knock you for a hit there, at least, the Oli in my area does.
Oh, and about my two cents. I find DT occasionally useful, but it's more of player error more than anything else really. About offensive abilities, I find Lucario getting a more safe approach to Olimar, though Olimar has better defense options with the crazy usmash, camp, and grab options. I guess there's a weak spot in the 45 degree mark, but they sometimes use upB to let u know that they can still knock you for a hit there, at least, the Oli in my area does.
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
So odd i play a pretty good olimar all the time and i seem to win most of the time. the hard part is getting past those pikmin to him. DT on latched pikmin really helps (too bad it doesnt dislodge them either) and makes for fast approaches. dont want to do it too often. ive never gotten grabed out of it. the key here is spacing- without proper spacing you can get destroyed. i like to stay at a distance just outside his smash range, then quickly go over his attacks for an attack from the forbidden angle. if he sheilds, i try to land behind, and down dodge any smash that might come. one thing that works very well is chasing his rolls. olimars roll is slow enough that i can get running grabs.once you get him off stage, you can really go wild with attacks. fairs, nairs, AS, anything to make him dodge, wistle, attack, etc. then once he gets back to the ledge, stand just outside his get up attack and your fsmash tips. his only real options are to jump (this puts him in the air and at a disadvantadge) or ledge hop pikmin throw (while staying off the ledge). if he gets into the habit od the second one, you can sneak forward and fsmash it. idk this matchup gives me less trouble then when i use pika. my opinion i would call this fairly neutral, 55-45 olimar at the WORST. i would rather call it 50-50. proper di really hurts his kill moves, and i tend to live over 160 without too much of a problem.
iRJi
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 2,423
Thanks lol. Normally I just browse around but I will try to post more. But to point out what you said earlier, the match up is really hard to call definite numbers on. Honestly my call from 55:45 was just from the characters abilities and habits, and also what they area capable of as of the metagame now. I play black walts and this match up is seriously annoying to play. But it is true that it is too early to call out a 100% accurate answer about the match up. Olimar is still being tested on where he really stands in the metagame and because of that it not certain on what the match up exactly is.
Timbers
check me out
The thing about the blindspot is Lucario still has no way to deal with it. None of his options allow him safely into the area. His shorthop is way too high to make a rising fair approach on olimar without being right on top of him in the first place, due to his size, and as his fair doesn't autocancel, you can't land into his shield and take advantage of 2 frame jabs against his slow grab (think of Peach.)