~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Max Ketchum]

NEO is, IMO, a better Marth than Roy_R, and he plays Azen all the time. Azen knows the matchup like the back of his hand, according to NEO...I'm quite sure that the matchup is still in Marth's favor, despite Azen winning those matches.

 

[dguy6789]

Sheik is a pretty open and shut no surprises matchup. As everyone knows, anybody that kills late is in huge trouble against Lucario.

Her needles are the only thing at all that make this any kind of tricky. Jump over or shield them, and that's it. Her upsmash is her best ko move, but it is very easily avoided, and it still won't kill you until late.

 

[Azen Zagenite]

=^_^=

I'm so glad Lucario easily gets out of the side tilt spam. Reminds me of the gayness of Melee lolll.

 

[Kappie]

@ Timbers. Make the buttons with the matchup numbers (60:40 etc) way bigger, if you can. This is pretty small, I think it would be much more easy to read and overall better if they were something like double the size. The rest is very pretty though.

I don't know that much about the sheik matchup really, just to stay away from USmash as long as you can. I know quite alot about the GW matchup timbers reffered to however, and I'm leaning to 55:45 opposed to Timbers' 65:35. If you can manage to not fire baby aura spheres, only charge and KEEP big ones (mind games), you should manage to do pretty good, if you outspace GW and not get hit by FSmash and USmash. Lucario can escape DThrow and work around Bair as well. Avoid and punish key approach. 55:45 if you ask me, personally I played around 10 GW tournament matches (in semi finals and pools alike) and won 9 of them.

 

[dguy6789]

G&W is no worse than 60:40 in G&W's favor.

 

[Fizzle]

Yeah, ftilt is Sheik's best set up for usmash, but because of Luc's dair most Sheik mains are scared as **** to attempt it. I think Sheik can maybe get a couple ftilts at low % to a utilt or something but it's not nearly as frightening as her usmash.

And, Dguy, tippered usmash kills Luc at roughly 92% with DI. Sounds pretty dangerous to me. I can't see how that kills 'late' at all. Luckily Sheik has such a difficult time landing it against Lucario as opposed to others.

Due to her speed, Sheik does a great job at breaking through your defense. Nearly all of her ground moves (if not all of them) are quite a bit faster than yours. Look:

Jab
HIT: 2

Forward Tilt
HIT: 4

Down Smash
HIT: 4, 16, 23

Dash Attack
HIT: 5 (!)

As you can see, Sheik will have little difficulty beating you to the punch at close range. Her aerials while lacking range (except bair) are all extremely fast as well - nair is 2 frames and bair is 3. Like all matchups, it's important here for Luc to space well and outrange her. As long as you play smart and don't get usmashed, Luc will thrive off the Aura boost and shut her down.

A lot of Sheik players like to compensate her lack of killing power with gimps. Luc's fair, dair, and AS should be able to ward off any attempts at that. Try to avoid using upb to recover whenever you can.

Sheik can very easily play hit and run tactics, build up enough damage, and switch to Zelda for the KO. If both Sheik and Zelda are used, I'm tempted to say the matchup is 50-50. Using either character alone would be around 60-40 with Zelda fairing slightly better against Luc.

 

[Timbers]

I know quite alot about the GW matchup timbers reffered to however, and I'm leaning to 55:45 opposed to Timbers' 65:35. If you can manage to not fire baby aura spheres, only charge and KEEP big ones (mind games), you should manage to do pretty good, if you outspace GW and not get hit by FSmash and USmash. Lucario can escape DThrow and work around Bair as well. Avoid and punish key approach. 55:45 if you ask me, personally I played around 10 GW tournament matches (in semi finals and pools alike) and won 9 of them.

My reasoning for 65:35 has nothing to do with aurasphere. GaW's edgeguard game is too good, and your primary spacing tool in the match becomes fsmash, throwing away your hopes of low % kills on GaW.

Luc is all about momentum, and that's really hard to do when GaW's key and uB get him out of everything ever.

Bair can be DI'd quite easily, it's not that big of a problem. My biggest concerns with GaW's moveset is fair, uB, and uair. Between those 3 moves, he becomes an even bigger threat than MK or Marth when you're trying to recover back to the stage.

But that's just my opinion. If there's any further discussion on the matchup take it to the GaW export thread please, this is for Sheik.

And be wise not to land on Sheik's usmash. The sweetspot kills you at like 110%.

 

[Demenise]

Anyone smart in this match up would use Zelda, either alone or in conjunction with Sheik. Alone, Sheik proves no threat; she thrives off of building damage, which is what Lucario loves. Aside from Usmash (and possibly Uair,) Lucario won't be killing with any move any time soon. If you want to be sure, keep Sheik in the air; then she'll never be killing (maybe 140-150%?) However, a good player knows how to get your damage up. After this gets done, Zelda comes in - who kills you easily. She kills EXTREMELY well upwards (not good for Lucario) and can kill earlier on. She can also keep you at bay with Din's Fire. She's a better choice in this matchup, but still has trouble racking up damage. Both combined seem to work well.

Sheik alone? 65-35 Lucario.
Sheik/Zelda? 55-45 Lucario.

 

[Timbers]

@ Timbers. Make the buttons with the matchup numbers (60:40 etc) way bigger, if you can. This is pretty small, I think it would be much more easy to read and overall better if they were something like double the size. The rest is very pretty though.

If other people feel the same way about this then I'll change it. So like yeah, does anyone feel the numbers need to be bigger? I can also blacken the font more if you're uncomfortable with the grayish numbers.

None of these updates will come until Sheik is updated on the chart though. I don't want to have to keep bugging Jeepy to change it for minor things...so you guys have a while to discuss it if you want to.

Anyone smart in this match up would use Zelda, either alone or in conjunction with Sheik. Alone, Sheik proves no threat; she thrives off of building damage, which is what Lucario loves. Aside from Usmash (and possibly Uair,) Lucario won't be killing with any move any time soon. If you want to be sure, keep Sheik in the air; then she'll never be killing (maybe 140-150%?) However, a good player knows how to get your damage up. After this gets done, Zelda comes in - who kills you easily. She kills EXTREMELY well upwards (not good for Lucario) and can kill earlier on. She can also keep you at bay with Din's Fire. She's a better choice in this matchup, but still has trouble racking up damage. Both combined seem to work well.

Sheik alone? 65-35 Lucario.
Sheik/Zelda? 55-45 Lucario.

Sheik is actually more of a threat than Zelda, excluding killpower. I can sit back and force Zelda to approach the entire match, and watch her fail as she tries. Sheik can actually approach you and can pressure really well once inside. The only thing she does lack is the killpower, but as an overall character I think she's more threatening than Zelda. Zelda has to actually get in close enough to land those killers on Lucario, something that's rather easy to avoid. It's not until Sheik has racked up a good 130% is when I see her as less threatening, because you become a powerhouse and Sheik is still needing to rack a good 30% on you before you die. Hmm, it's hard to say. Sheik kills later but landing her killmoves are more realistic than Zelda landing hers.

I agree that using both Sheik and Zelda will benefit the matchup. Sheik alone I'd place 65:35, Zelda 60:40, and together I'd say either 55:45 or 60:40.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

I'd like to address the DACUS.

Some Shieks think it's too much trouble to get this down, but some (myself) can do it quite reliably. It's hard to punish, and it can double hit for lots of damage and a good sideways knockback (I've killed with it at 90-120 before). Although as with snake, you can hit her before she actually gets the smash out while she's sliding. Lucario's lingering hitboxes should help with that. You can predict what she will do when she lines up accross the stage from you. If she doesn't have needles charged, she will A) shoot a single needle to annoy you, B) Charge needles (maybe), or C) DACUS. If you predict a DACUS, DT probably won't hit, but it will work to evade it. Shield, jump, or better yet fire any size of aura sphere. That's stop any DACUS in its tracks. Be aware that she may fire a volley of needles then attempt to DACUS. If you get hit by a needlestorm, quickly get out of the way or shoot AS.

 

[-Mars-]

Wow, i'm guessing Sheik isn't too popular of a matchup to talk about. lordofthemorning hit the whole DACUS issue right on the head. It's actually a decent approach and it's pretty much unpunishable if you shield it because of the knockback.

 

[Timbers]

My experience against DACUS is that it's really telegraphed. If I expect Sheik to use it I just toss an aurasphere. It feels much like Snake's to me except Sheik's dash attack doesn't have that crazy priority that Snake's does. Dunno. I don't remember ever being hit by DACUS but if Sheik successfully executes it without being interrupted with an aurasphere, she should be relatively safe.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Snake's mortar has pretty bad priority, Timbers. Practically any aerial will cancel it.

 

[hichez50]

I think that shiek is equal lucario just because of her speed. He forward tilt can easilty punshish those who don't know how to DI or forget to DI. Also users who know how to use shieks B-up for killing purposes are a serious theart.

Zelda is more of a problem her smashes are fast. She has a spike even though its week if not sweetspotted. Din fire will annoy the hell out of lucario players that have a better ground game. Also she has a reflector which can make aurasphere punishable if they are always aware. While zelda can't combo well she does have a medium weight which in my opinion cancels out the fact that she can't combo.

 

[phi1ny3]

I think that shiek is equal lucario just because of her speed. He forward tilt can easilty punshish those who don't know how to DI or forget to DI. Also users who know how to use shieks B-up for killing purposes are a serious theart.

Zelda is more of a problem her smashes are fast. She has a spike even though its week if not sweetspotted. Din fire will annoy the hell out of lucario players that have a better ground game. Also she has a reflector which can make aurasphere punishable if they are always aware. While zelda can't combo well she does have a medium weight which in my opinion cancels out the fact that she can't combo.

I don't reply to many remarks, but there are hits in misses in that. Yes, Sheik is definitely a bit more of a threat in terms of penetrating Lucario's defenses, but the fact that unfortunately her early kill moves are either hard to connect, telegraphed, or rely on bad mistakes on ur opponent, there will be problems in addressing that. UpB is one of those moves, which tho it is a good kill move, has startup lag that is significant. Still something to watch out for. Overall tho, it's a stretch to say Sheik is equal to Lucario, tho imo, a better option to use against lucario overall over zelda.

As for Zelda, her usmash is great, and dsmash is fast, but her fsmash and usmash are slow, and leave her vulnerable if whiffed. Din's fire is ok, except that our discussion revealed that her din camping < lucario's AS/BAS camping, and use as well. Naryu, while good for reflecting, is a bit laggy, which means if the AS is reflected, and Lucario is well out of the way (which will happen, considering AS's slow speed), it is risky, considering she has lost precious time to get an otherwise suitable defense built up, allowing Lucario to approach depending on the situation. Also, while weight is arguable, she is indeed a bit on the light side.

 

[Timbers]

Snake's mortar has pretty bad priority, Timbers. Practically any aerial will cancel it.

did you read my post at all. I was comparing dash attacks. In most cases Snake's dash attack frames can outprioritize an aurasphere and then move into the next part of his DACUS, punishing a laggy Lucario. Sheik can't do this to nearly the same extent.

Neither I think are very smart approach options, but Snake does have potential to cancel a lot of auraspheres depending on how precise the player is with their mortarslide.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Ooh man Timbers, that match-up stuff is pretty sexy. When Jeepy is on, ask him about it, because it's really cool. And it'll make all the boards jealous!

I haven't been on in a while. Hi guys!

Unfortunately, I know nothing of the last two match-ups. As you were.

 

[Zankoku]

And it'll make all the boards jealous!

Wrooonnng, 'ze~!

^_^

 

[Timbers]

Ankoku has a really nice chart setup in Sheik boards.

 

[TK Wolf]

That is quite nice, but I think Timbers's is better. :3

So do we have anything more to discuss about Sheik? I feel like a bunch of us (at least myself) don't have enough experience to comment. Maybe it's time to wrap up then move on?

 

[dguy6789]

Yup, time to move on. All that needs to be said about the matchup has been said already.

 

[TK Wolf]

IMO, I think the next matchup should be MK, D3, Falco, or Diddy.

 

[IceDX]

Lets begin with the MK match up!!! im really interested to reed what everyone else has to say of it IMO Lucario has a 60/40 in MK's Favor, this being at the highest level of play ....

I will wait to read what everyone else has to say before i explain why.....
i don't wanna be flamed just yet jej....

 

[Samuelson]

IMO, I think the next matchup should be MK, D3, Falco, or Diddy.

I want it to be Falco or Diddy so badly. I wouldn't be disappointed if MK was next but i already know that matchup really well hahaha

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Weren't Ice Climbers scheduled to be next?

*Sticks gun in mouth*

 

[IceDX]

I want it to be Falco or Diddy so badly. I wouldn't be disappointed if MK was next but i already know that matchup really well hahaha

ah come on sam those can be next

tell us ur opinion on the MK march up bro

Weren't Ice Climbers scheduled to be next?

*Sticks gun in mouth*

those don't need to be discussed really, its simple u either let yourself get grabbed and lose or u don't and win.....

 

[TK Wolf]

I dunno if anyone was scheduled, I'm just voicing the opinion of one Lucario. ;3

 

[tedward2000]

Wait, we're done?

crap I need to do a review then dont I?
eh... I'll wait for jeeps to yell at me about it. Im to tired atm.
/me flees

-t2

 

[manhunter098]

Weren't Ice Climbers scheduled to be next?

*Sticks gun in mouth*

Thats actually a really fun matchup for Lucario IMO. I dont play enough of them but the matches are always fun. I would definitely not mind discussing the Ice Climbers next, especially if they are scheduled for next by order.

 

[IceDX]

Thats actually a really fun matchup for Lucario IMO. I dont play enough of them but the matches are always fun. I would definitely not mind discussing the Ice Climbers next, especially if they are scheduled for next by order.

What part of spending the whole match trying not to be grabbed do u find fun????

 

[Timbers]

What part of spending the whole match trying not to be grabbed do u find fun????

They're one of the few characters you can actually camp well with Lucario. Of course it's going to be fun.

I won't be able to discuss the next matchup due to irl shiz, so I'll suggest DDD, since I have like nothing to contribute to that matchup other than "don't get grabbed." lol. Also, Olimar.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

People who call fighting the Ice Climbers fun make me want to nuke the planet.

 

[Greenpoe]

People who call fighting the Ice Climbers fun make me want to nuke the planet.

But dair knocks each IC in a different direction! <3

 

[IceDX]

you guys obviously havent played a good enough IC's

 

[Timbers]

you guys obviously havent played a good enough IC's

Your detection of sarcasm is astonishing.

 

[dguy6789]

I think Falco should be next. This thread is dying, we need an important character to jump start this thread's activity. Lucario ***** ICs by the way.

 

[manhunter098]

What part of spending the whole match trying not to be grabbed do u find fun????

The lag on Nana's defensive actions like shielding and spot dodging, makes it so that with lingering and rather large hitboxes, they are extremely easy to separate. There is a great deal of satisfaction in this matchup since you will pretty much be hitting one Ice Cimber or the other one with great success.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Took the SATs today, so just gonna chill for the rest of the day. I'll try and finish up Zelda/Sheik tomorrow, and then we can start with whichever character you guys want next.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Took the SATs today, so just gonna chill for the rest of the day. I'll try and finish up Zelda/Sheik tomorrow, and then we can start with whichever character you guys want next.

I like Timber's new list. It diversifies the characters more, so we don;t review a bunch of top tiers, then go onto bottom tiers where everyone ignores.

 

[Kappie]

Wolf, Falco or Olimar seems like a good idea.