~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[G-Beast]

what does that have to do with anything.

it has everything to do with it... i said ill post what i THINK i know, as in i dont know if its accurate or not, shouldtn be johnsing on that T.T

so read that before you go saying **** like this below

G-beast I'm not sure where you're pulling this information.
QUOTE]

 

[Timbers]

Don't speak indefinitely about something if you aren't sure of it, then.

Like I said, testing fair/bair range is only a 5 minute job.

 

[TK Wolf]

Beast, he wasn't acting with any bad intent, just clarifying some misinformation. We're all working together here not against each other. ^^;

 

[phi1ny3]

I forget, but does the tipped ftilt -> SH bair work against Lucario at low %'s? That's a good way to start the match for Zelda.

 

[Timbers]

It's not a true combo (I don't think it is on any character?) but it's definitely a possible setup for Zelda.

While we're somewhat on the subject of Zelda's setups. If you're hit by a dtilt, always roll away ASAP..don't try to attack through it. You will get ***** and it will hurt.

 

[phi1ny3]

It's not a true combo (I don't think it is on any character?) but it's definitely a possible setup for Zelda.

While we're somewhat on the subject of Zelda's setups. If you're hit by a dtilt, always roll away ASAP..don't try to attack through it. You will get ***** and it will hurt.

I never really said per se that it was a true combo, but is it something to watch out for much? And yes, dtilt will **** bad, it's up there with peach's and marth's in utility.

 

[Timbers]

I never really said per se that it was a true combo, but is it something to watch out for much? And yes, dtilt will **** bad, it's up there with peach's and marth's in utility.

I didn't think you meant a true combo, but I was just clarifying before i went on.

Her ftilt pops you up above her, so it's definitely something you should be watching out for (well the followups mostly), at any percent.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh, another thing. While using a dash attack for anyone is a crappy idea 9 times out of 10, Zelda's as I've found, has huge range, and if spaced correctly, has great complete 90 degree trajectory. Yes, it's not supposed to be used every time, but I think that it is "decent", to say in the least, plus the unusual portion of the frames that it actually attacks in is pretty good. Thoughts?

 

[Browny]

zeldas dash attack is right up there with weegees for worst in the game. Couple her horrid run speed with the large lag on her dash attack (you can spot dodge, turn around and grab her its that bad) with its ease of shield-grabbing...ness and youve got a pretty bad attack :/ Its a completely unsafe approach

 

[-Mars-]

I didn't think you meant a true combo, but I was just clarifying before i went on.

Her ftilt pops you up above her, so it's definitely something you should be watching out for (well the followups mostly), at any percent.

The followup that works best out of an early percentage ftilt is usmash. Probably the only one that works most of the time, the bair/fair could just beairdodged while you can't airdodge the usmash.........you just have to perfectly DI after the ftilt to avoid the usmash.

 

[Timbers]

Without DI (sending Lucario above Zelda) He's never actually in range to be usmashed by Zelda. Too floaty, he can jump before the usmash would ever connect.

It's not any less of an option than bair/fair, but it's as avoidable as bair and fair are, at least in this matchup. I'm sure the heavier/larger chars get eaten by usmash pretty well.

 

[tedward2000]

Zelda

The Princess of Hyrule. The Tomboy-ish secret split-minded character of Brawl.
She's in for another run for Brawls next top model, but... she didn't quite make the cut.

If one word sums up Zelda, Glass Cannon. Freaking powerful moves that will make anyone's balls pop, regardless if they have any or not. Her smashes and Aerials are all power hungry fiends. Tilts, if not trippy, are 1-2 pwanch worthy as well. Sweet spotting is easy for her as well.

Her Specials are special for the most part. Neutral B acts as a sharding reflector, and the ever so spammable Side-B Din's Fire, will fire into anyone's fireplace and cook some smores. If Recovering is a problem for you, Up-B has a very wide range, but a bit on the laggy side.

And if all else fails, the Genderless Sheik can always come in and make a show.

However, besides the fact that she is a sore spot for Lucario, Zelda has an Achilles heel. Her Recovery. Woo she can angle it and want not. Doesn't mean it helps. Plus its laggy and slow. One little mistake will end her sorry two person life fast.

This is a tough fight for Lucario. You are going to have to out mindgame her to win.
Its a Up-Hill battle spelt with a Z.

-tedward2000

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Without DI (sending Lucario above Zelda) He's never actually in range to be usmashed by Zelda. Too floaty, he can jump before the usmash would ever connect.

It's not any less of an option than bair/fair, but it's as avoidable as bair and fair are, at least in this matchup. I'm sure the heavier/larger chars get eaten by usmash pretty well.

Her Usmash can kill Lucario better, but he can outmaneuver it.

I wouldn't worry about short hopped Fair/Bair's from Zelda either, Spacing with Fsmash can fix this.

 

[Timbers]

We were talking about ftilt followups Ryu.


Also, I think it would have been in our best interest to discuss those who use both Sheik and Zelda, too. Sheik has a much easier time prying through Luc's defenses than Zelda does, but without Zelda she'll let Luc live until a good 150-160% every stock.

How do you think we should do this? I don't really want to waste an entire additional week just to talk about Zelda/Sheik, but it is also important to not overlook.

 

[-Mars-]

Well most Sheik players don't play Zelda and vice versa..........i'm one of the few that do. I would recommend that you discuss them seperately......that's just me though.

 

[Brinzy]

There are Lucario players who want to play Zelda?

I can do that... granted, I know virtually nothing about Lucario, so it'd take some matches for me to get going.

im gonna say a 65-45 in Lucario's favor
i think 70-30 is pushing it.. but can be sniffed at

Oh wow. You haven't played Zelda much at all but you think Lucario has that big an advantage on her? Yeah, I'd rather play some Lucario players first. I *cannot* see Lucario having 65:35 on her.

 

[Timbers]

Raphael, I'll play you just 'cause.

2062 8848 6045, shoot me a pm whenever you want to play.

Regarding the match, numbers for Zelda feel like 55:45 or 60:40 Lucario.

Well most Sheik players don't play Zelda and vice versa..........i'm one of the few that do. I would recommend that you discuss them seperately......that's just me though.

I meant like, we should talk about Zelda, and then how Zelda does when Sheik is used. Same goes for Sheik and Sheik/Zelda.

But we're like, almost already done with Zelda, so I don't know how that'd work.

 

[Brinzy]

Alright, I'm here right now.

Brawl number is up there. I'll host the room.

Probably gonna get my butt kicked around for a bit since it's WiFi + I don't fight Luc at all, but we'll see.

 

[Timbers]

good games.

Zelda has a good spacing game, don't go and ruin it by rolling into me so much, it got really predictable to punish, even with the wifi lag.

 

[Brinzy]

Yikes... I guess I kinda did see it coming. I have no idea how his attacks work... like, at all.

Good games.

EDIT: Yeah, I had no idea what else I was supposed to do about your neutral B and your aerials. Too hard to powershield.

 

[Timbers]

EDIT: Yeah, I had no idea what else I was supposed to do about your neutral B and your aerials. Too hard to powershield.

And that's why I believe the matchup to be in Luc's favor, and other believes it to be an even steeper advantage lol.

Zelda has a less than appealing approach game, while Luc forces her approach and brickwalls her exceptionally well.

When your only safe approach is a walking powershield, it's pretty much GGs to whoever character is forced to approach like that.

 

[Brinzy]

I see. That makes... three characters now that I need to work on. Thank you for playing me.

 

[phi1ny3]

I used to be a hybrid, and I still do it sometimes, but I now do Zelda exclusive. Sheik is good for getting in on Lucario's metagame, until u count the aura factor in. Ya, I'd think it would still be worth our time to discuss it.

 

[-Mars-]

And that's why I believe the matchup to be in Luc's favor, and other believes it to be an even steeper advantage lol.

Zelda has a less than appealing approach game, while Luc forces her approach and brickwalls her exceptionally well.

When your only safe approach is a walking powershield, it's pretty much GGs to whoever character is forced to approach like that.

Timbers, I would love to play a little WiFi against you. Maybe you'll see something different after you see a couple different styles of Zelda players. I'm available most of tomorrow evening up until 11:00 EST if you would like to play.

 

[Brinzy]

Hope you do better than me. You should anyway.

 

[Timbers]

I used to be a hybrid, and I still do it sometimes, but I now do Zelda exclusive. Sheik is good for getting in on Lucario's metagame, until u count the aura factor in. Ya, I'd think it would still be worth our time to discuss it.

I'll talk to Jeepy about it. Maybe we can get a "what Sheik does on her own, and what Sheik does with Zelda" scenario going on. I dunno, but it's worth including. Sheik/Zelda look like they do better than they do when seperated.

Timbers, I would love to play a little WiFi against you. Maybe you'll see something different after you see a couple different styles of Zelda players. I'm available most of tomorrow evening up until 11:00 EST if you would like to play.

yay weefee.

Uh, my AIM is flarecast@hotmail.com ...so shoot me an AIM whenever you want to play. I should be around most of the evening.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

I fought a pretty good Zelda main the other day. S/He beat my shiek anyways.

I'm fairly sure there isn't a lot zelda can do about a fair approach. It goes over her nayru's and if she is using Din's shes about to get objected!. The rising fair angle seems to be a very good way to approach zelda.

Aura Sphere's are also very important. It pressures her to not use Din's, which might be second nature to the zelda in question (like when I fight %(%#ing lucas).

Fsmash outranges anything she's got. If your Fair approach becomes predictable, you might try a fake fair approach and instead fall back and Fsmash (among other shenanigans). IF she tries to approach, and Fsmash wall usually works fer me.

Just watch out for Usmashes. Lucario doesn't have as good vertical weight as we would like. Spot dodging is usually a good thing, but remember the lingering hitboxes on a lot of her attacks....

Take her to tha Frigate! Zelda's recover is preeeetty hit or miss. If she finds herself UNDERNEATH the stage with no ledge to snap to, she's dead fo' sho'.

I'm pretty dang sure you want to stay AWAY from Corneria and other small-ceiling stages. Her Usmash is evil enough already.

That's what I did, and I won. Which is good considering he murdered my other characters. I would call this match in Lucario's favor.

Can someone address her Dtilt locks and how to escape them early?

 

[Timbers]

DI away from her while trying to roll away.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Hey guys, haven't been here in awhile and instead focusing on a site for minnesota smashbros....anyway here's my input. I like to think i have a decent zelda so lets see how this goes.

First thing people are forgetting is that lucario isn't invincible during his extremespeed. Do you have a clue how easy it is to get a Dins fire on a lucario at the ledge after a dsmash? It's a free 10+% and quite frankly, against zelda, i wouldn't take the typical idea of "hey, i'm at 100% now, maybe an extra 50%-70% (be happy if you can make it to 140%, zelda wants you dead 120-130 at worst) if I'm really lucky mentality" into this matchup. Once lucario is at ~80% he is dsmash fodder, which leads to dins fire if zelda and lucario are remotely close to the ledge.

If zelda can land a lightning kick and lucario is at ~90% you better hope you can live horizontally and DI that baby down. And i wouldn't really advise zelda on a stage with many platforms...uair is probably the best kill move in terms of % zelda has overall. Oh, and watch out for nayru's love guys. It's gonna stop you from getting too close if you aren't careful, and it'll most likely be followed up by a running usmash or, for the sake of variety a farore's wind into the ground to catch you (so fun to pull off..)

-Oh, and of course upsmash, fsmash, dtilt>fsmash/tilt/usmash hurt. Don't try to dair her shield, she'll just usmash you and it'll hurt

Now here's where lucario can make up for this REAL quick:
-Get zelda off the stage EARLY, too late and she'll float over you, but most likely you can get a lot of fairs and a dair in there and hope for the gimp (probably after a bthrow)
-charge an fsmash EVERY recovery zelda makes so the tip is over the edge of the platform, zelda has a nasty habit of being a little high in the recovery and iirc it leaves like 10 frames until she falls a bit and grabs the stage.
-bait her into a nayru's love with an AS, then jump over the upcoming reflection and nair or dair her depending on the position (or ftilt if you have the time to land). Nayru has horrible end lag.

edits coming with some quotes from people

EDIT 1

I'm fairly sure there isn't a lot zelda can do about a fair approach. It goes over her nayru's and if she is using Din's shes about to get objected!. The rising fair angle seems to be a very good way to approach zelda.

upsmash or shield grab depending on the zelda you're playing. IDK why they would use din's if you're close to her, once you get close, it's a matter of zelda finding an opening.

Aura Sphere's are also very important. It pressures her to not use Din's, which might be second nature to the zelda in question (like when I fight %(%#ing lucas).

AS will force zelda into using nayru, if you're far enough away that zelda can dins camp you then you aren't doing your job, stay close to zelda because even if you fire that AS, she'll just shield it and you'd have just wasted your AS

Fsmash outranges anything she's got. If your Fair approach becomes predictable, you might try a fake fair approach and instead fall back and Fsmash (among other shenanigans). IF she tries to approach, and Fsmash wall usually works fer me.

IF zelda is approaching, which most will feint an approach and double back (easier to land fairs/bairs). Good zeldas would see you drop back and then DF you as you begin the fsmash...

But if zelda is legitimately approaching, yes, fsmash takes out the sh's.

Just watch out for Usmashes. Lucario doesn't have as good vertical weight as we would like. Spot dodging is usually a good thing, but remember the lingering hitboxes on a lot of her attacks....

you'll just get hit with the last one...just shield the usmash if you can

Take her to tha Frigate! Zelda's recover is preeeetty hit or miss. If she finds herself UNDERNEATH the stage with no ledge to snap to, she's dead fo' sho'.

yeah, pretty much

I'm pretty dang sure you want to stay AWAY from Corneria and other small-ceiling stages. Her Usmash is evil enough already.

I'd go as far to say that any stage where uthrow to uair is easy to do is a stage to stay away from, it'll kill much easier, take her to FD if you want a starter stage or frigate for the CP

Can someone address her Dtilt locks and how to escape them early?

that's why they call them locks...maybe SDI quarter circle mid-up

 

[Timbers]

Zelda's just forcing Luc into a bad position when she Din's his recovery. he still has his midair and airdodge and all that fun stuff.

Zelda's just as vulnerable in her farore's startup than Lucario. Aurasphere can really trash her offstage, as naryu's is way too laggy to use if she's already wasted her midair.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Zelda's just forcing Luc into a bad position when she Din's his recovery. he still has his midair and airdodge and all that fun stuff.

Zelda's just as vulnerable in her farore's startup than Lucario. Aurasphere can really trash her offstage, as naryu's is way too laggy to use if she's already wasted her midair.

Frankly, i think this is neutral or 55:45 in zelda's favor. And about that post i made i figured that i could add more for zelda because we all know what lucario can do.

you can't AD out of ES...and in context there, if lucario gets dsmash'd near the edge and is forced to use the fump right then, chances are lucario has time for one AD and then zelda can just grab the ledge and edgehog lucario.

Btw, zelda can AD the AS and probably be fine (most zeldas try to get on stage ASAP anyway, because we know that we're meat so a real chance to hit with AS offstage is unlikely).

If lucario can live to 130 each life...he'll probably win, if zelda can get an early (sub/near 100) kill, zelda will probably win. AS isn't as big a deal in this matchup as most people think...it's big, but it's not huge.

 

[Timbers]

AS is the sole reason that Zelda is forced to approach in this match. It's a pretty big deal.

Also Zelda can't airdodge out of her farore's startup either, and farore's startup is much longer than Luc's ES startup.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

if lucario is camping, nobody is gonna hit anybody...

and i'm talking about DURING Extremespeed, not even the startup, but it doesn't help its case really

and yes, farores wind has startup, but if zelda is using it close enough to the stage that it matters... chances are they're rcovering from below at a roughly 45 degree angle by dropping down slightly. Zelda shouldn't be afraid to AD in this match unless zelda made the huge mistake of being really close to the ledge in recovering and needing to AD then

 

[LordoftheMorning]

upsmash or shield grab depending on the zelda you're playing. IDK why they would use din's if you're close to her, once you get close, it's a matter of zelda finding an opening.

Shield grab doesn't work against a rising fair approach, which is how we start our fair>nair/dair/AS combos. Usmash is valid but keep in mind the range on Fair is deceptively long and the approach is a bit too much from the side for Usmashes.

AS will force zelda into using nayru, if you're far enough away that zelda can dins camp you then you aren't doing your job, stay close to zelda because even if you fire that AS, she'll just shield it and you'd have just wasted your AS.

1. Lucario sees Zelda using din's.
2. Knowing that she cannot move until the din's explodes, Lucario fire AS.
3. Lucario is free to move right after he fires AS (unlike zelda's projectile).

Result: Zelda is hit with AS and Lucario is able to powershield or dodge din's.

OR

Zelda is hit with AS and Lucario didn't fire the AS early enough, and so he trades hits. If the AS was fully/nearly fully charged, it's worth it.
You can't cancel Din's.

IF zelda is approaching, which most will feint an approach and double back (easier to land fairs/bairs). Good zeldas would see you drop back and then DF you as you begin the fsmash...

This is just a question of who has the better mindgames.

 

[Browny]

Wait... are people seriously suggesting that dins is a threat? If you get hit by it more than 1 per match, youre doing it wrong. Zelda isnt the sort of character who can force Lucario into QCQ to begin the dsmash/spotdodge wars, she is no where near quick enough and lucario can easily play it safe beyond about 80% by staying out of zeldas range, he doesnt need to be close when he can space with fsmash, AS and bair, maybe ftilt.

This is just a question of who has the better mindgames.

dont bring mindgames into matchup threads.

 

[phi1ny3]

Not that mindgames aren't bad, and that every char has them (some are crappy at it, like G&W's telegraphed smashes).

 

[dj_pwn1423]

imo dins doesnt suck as much as people think
AS is not the fastest thing in the world either.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

We were talking about ftilt followups Ryu.

Oh, whoops

Also, I think it would have been in our best interest to discuss those who use both Sheik and Zelda, too. Sheik has a much easier time prying through Luc's defenses than Zelda does, but without Zelda she'll let Luc live until a good 150-160% every stock.

How do you think we should do this? I don't really want to waste an entire additional week just to talk about Zelda/Sheik, but it is also important to not overlook.

Personally, I'd stick with just doing each one separately so people know how to deal with each one when they come out. If they try to fight as Zelda just do what you would do against any other Zelda. The same for Sheik.

 

[Browny]

imo dins doesnt suck as much as people think
AS is not the fastest thing in the world either.

im curious, what projectiles in brawl are less threatening, lets say in total % dealt from said projectile in any one match?

Id say weegee fireball, peanuts...




wario bike parts?

 

[Timbers]

if lucario is camping, nobody is gonna hit anybody...

and i'm talking about DURING Extremespeed, not even the startup, but it doesn't help its case really

and yes, farores wind has startup, but if zelda is using it close enough to the stage that it matters... chances are they're rcovering from below at a roughly 45 degree angle by dropping down slightly. Zelda shouldn't be afraid to AD in this match unless zelda made the huge mistake of being really close to the ledge in recovering and needing to AD then

I beg to differ. Zelda is the one that is forced to react. Whether the auraspheres hit her or not she is still being controlled by Lucario's actions, not the other way around. Even if no one is getting hit, Lucario is still controlling Zelda's movement. Zelda cannot retaliate with her own projectile due to it's nature.

Even if Zelda can land on the stage, she is still vulnerable to Lucario's grabs. At this point in time I think it's an ideal example for me to bring up what you said several posts ago, saying how Din's can harass Luc's recovery with 10%, because between Luc's pummels and throws, he'll rack up 15% easily for a landing on the stage.

imo dins doesnt suck as much as people think
AS is not the fastest thing in the world either.

It's not a matter of speed. Din's speed is actually fine given it's destructive hitbox and damage. The fact that the hitbox goes dead whenever Zelda is hit (unless it hits the ground or has reached it's maximum length) is what makes it less than appealing. Zelda is stuck in both heavy startup and afterlag from the move as well, which makes punishment all too easy. It's priority is also terrible.