~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Timbers]

DDD utilt has much more range than Zelda's utilt.

I dunno, I'm killed by usmash, dsmash, and lightning kicks the most often. I don't remember dying to utilt in a long time lol.

 

[phi1ny3]

It certainly has good kill potential, and the slight delay catches opponents off guard often. I use it a bit, especially if they somehow DI out of my usmash when I play as Zelda.

 

[MysticKenji]

hi

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192160

 

[Milln]

Our picture isn't nearly as cool or welldone as the other ones. I demand a recount.

 

[Timbers]

Our picture isn't nearly as cool or welldone as the other ones. I demand a recount.

This.

That picture is like intentionally mocking Lucario's stubby little arms.

 

[-Mars-]

It certainly has good kill potential, and the slight delay catches opponents off guard often. I use it a bit, especially if they somehow DI out of my usmash when I play as Zelda.

It also hits on both sides of her body. I know Lucario users love to roll and utilt is great against rollers. It might even be more useful in this particular matchup.

 

[Kinzer]

This Post Does not exist, don't bother reading it!

Hey all, just wanted to let you know that Lucario has been picked for #17 in the Ike's matchup thread. If you feel that you would like to contribute, that would be greatly appreciated.

Link's here if you want to give your 2 cents.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192160

Timbers has already given us his insight, but if you feel he didn't add something (or anybody else for that matter), go ahead and tell us, so far he's really been going on on how Lucario's recovery is not to be underestimated. At least you would have to be arrogant to believe that. Lucario Has the Aura Sphere, the abiltiy to curve ES to any necessary angle, and is quite floaty so he can defend himself well in the air retreating back to the stage.

So far we've come to an agreement that it's easier for Lucario to get back on the stage with Ike as the sentry than vice-versa. We also know that he (even though for a pokeman it should really be addressed as "it" but so many things suggest and probably even clearly point out that this Lucario is male.) has the speed, the aura (duh!), and a great aerial game. Quite the solid character, yes? Lucario has some lingering hitboxes on his attacks, his attacks are very disjointed, and have Netherworldly priority.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Here's my input:

Ike fsmash out of shield!

 

[Timbers]

It also hits on both sides of her body. I know Lucario users love to roll and utilt is great against rollers. It might even be more useful in this particular matchup.

protip: good lucarios don't roll into their opponents.

The only way you'll be getting the utilt off successfully is out of a successful dtilt to pop them up into Zelda.

 

[dguy6789]

Zelda is pretty gay...

 

[-Mars-]

Zelda is pretty gay...

Zelda is sexy, how dare you call her names

 

[manhunter098]

Well after fighting a good Zelda today at a tournament I can say that I think its about an even matchup.


I would have to say you really dont have to worry about any of her kill moves except for u-smash. With the exception of an Aura Sphere that got reflected (I was trying to toss one thinking if it was reflected I could perfect shield, but since her reflector sticks out quite a bit from her I didnt space it right), and a Dins Fire which I timed the air dodge wrong for, u-smash was the only move that killed me in that set.


AVOID PLATFORM STAGES: specifically Battlefield. Its just too perfect for her u-smashes, and she can punish landings on the platforms fairly well, not to mention she exerts some decent push on your shield with those sweetspotted f&b-airs which can easily knock you off platforms setting up for some damage on you.


I really dont have a lot to say about this matchup though, Zelda is too straightforward of a character for me to think of anything that would really be worth noting other than stage picks. All her moves are pretty straightforward, she doesnt really do anything unusual, she just tries to hit you with attacks that have around average range and pretty obvious hitboxes.

I guess I can do a couple tips though. Keep a CHARGED Aura Sphere as much as possible, with Naryu's Love Lucario cant exactly camp Zelda much at all. Furthermore dont use your Aura Sphere except when you are a good distance away or you are pretty much positive she cant reflect it. And if she is off the stage and used Fayore's Wind, throw your Aura Sphere to where you think she is going to appear on the stage. Pretty much, the only reason to not do this is to mix it up so she is at least willing to try to land on the stage with it. So make it convincing that you do at least intend to try to edge guard her some of the time.

 

[dguy6789]

Zelda is sexy, how dare you call her names

Oh sorry, I meant in bed.

 

[phi1ny3]

So another thing: Zelda's Nair. It is good when u know that fair/bair is "situational" in a time, and has decent damage, range, and trajectory.

Another thing: Avoid dsmash. Zelda's dsmash has been buffed quite a bit, and can set you up for some nasty off the edge stuff. same with dtilt, as it sets up and can be used repeatedly if you don't get out quickly.

 

[M@v]

Hmmm this seems pretty even to me. Both sides have a great projectile. Lucario has dair;zelda has upsmash. Both of their recoveries could be better. Lucario has a superior airgame to zelda though in my opinion. If lucario can force zelda to approach somehow, she is out of her element. Lucario can play aggresively, or try to camp her. It might be hard with dins fire. Im calling this anywhere from 5:5 to 6:4 lucario.

 

[emoklops]

Lucario can play aggresively, or try to camp her.

Camping doesn't sound good to me. You have barely time charging your sphere and dodging Din's Fire. Just shooting BAS won't help, thanks to Nayru...


I think it's 45:55 Lucario (Zelda having a slight advantage). Lucario has to approach and that is quite a hard thing to do.

 

[Browny]

I got hit once with dins fire about a month ago, dont remember the last time since then. all its good for is forcing an airdodge on ike/link/ganon as they try to recover to make them fall below the stage

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Zelda isn't going to get anywhere by trying to camp you with Din's Fire, guys. It's like a free Aura Sphere to the face.

 

[Timbers]

Din's is way too laggy for her to successfully camp you with both dins and naryus. She can fake you out and cancel dins to naryus an oncoming aurasphere, but her reflector is too laggy to start up another dins before youve already shielded the reflected AS.

You really want to make Zelda approach though. her oos options and overall defensive game is much much better than her approach options.

 

[-Mars-]

Dins Fire is crap, please don't bring it into the discussion, I think I need to make a post on the Zelda boards that details Zeldas lack of approaches and her inability to camp. Some characters she can force to approach, but dins fire doesn't let her camp anyone.

Zeldas approach otions are pretty limited, I actually started a thread on this in the Zelda boards. So far all we've come up with is pivot cancelled fsmashes. Other than that, her only means of approach is a slow walking-powershield everything type of approach.

 

[Andurian]

Wait... Lucario is bad against Game and Watch? And is bad against Marth? Really? Wow.... I find them to be easy matches. I find myself having a lot of problems against ROB and Wario... although that may simply be my play style.

 

[M@v]

Dins Fire is crap, please don't bring it into the discussion.

It isnt crap when you play melee zelda

 

[Milln]

Wait... Lucario is bad against Game and Watch? And is bad against Marth? Really? Wow.... I find them to be easy matches. I find myself having a lot of problems against ROB and Wario... although that may simply be my play style.

Play better people.

 

[Raiken]

Zelda is one of the few matchups i have any considerable experience with; and i'd say its about 50:50.

Neither of the two have much of anything on each other, aside from zelda's defensive game. Approaching her from above is usually an incredibly bad idea from everything i've gathered, and since Lucario's D-air is one of his more commonly used moves... it kind of hampers him a little.

Din's Fire is not nearly as good as some people make it out to be; its just too easy to dodge, so no problem there.

Naryu's Love, even though it is a reflector still isn't that great since it is somewhat punishable.

Not going to try to elaborate much more since everyone else has pointed most of the stuff out already (and i need to go D: ; might update later) But i believe it's 50:50

 

[phi1ny3]

Zelda is pretty defensive, no doubt about it. You might as well change to Sheik and risk getting punished during the transformation than attempt. imo tho, her dash attack is good if you don't use it predictably. Also, like I said, dtilt works wonders for her.

 

[Andurian]

Infi-tan, that was at a tournament. It is possible the tournament players sucked... I was told the Mr. Game and Watch I played was not his main and he should have chosen another character. The Marth I win against actually made it fairly high in the rankings however.... although it may have something to do with the fact I fight him on a near daily basis and know what he is going to do.

 

[jehonaker]

I seem to play Zelda more than any other character in Brawl, seeing as how she's one of my friend's main characters.

Simply put, Din's Fire is a stupid thing for Zelda to use against Lucario because it really is a free damage boost in many cases. It doesn't kill earlier than 150%, it can easily be airdodged to get out of fire juggling, and it leaves her open for Aura Sphere. A half-decent Zelda should recognize this.

Downwards aerial beats upwards smash and upwards tilt, but it loses to that upwards aerial she can pull as a trump card. Lightning kicks do hurt badly, but her poor mobility usually will not afford her the ability to use them as much as she'd like.

Zelda seems to be more like Bowser in that she plays defensively better than she does offensively. Her approaches are actually sub-par (grounded and aerial), so she tries to get you to approach her by slinging Din's Fire and punishing with smashes and aerials once you get close.
Aura Sphere, though, can turn it around. Din's Fire has intro lag and some exit lag, so pelting her with blue bombs will force her hand.

I'm tempted to say 55:45, Lucario's favor. She can kill Lucario fairly early on if she forces an approach that she can punish, but forcing her to approach lets Luke go to town.

 

[Kappie]

Besides G&W's bucket (just dont shoot baby aura spheres, only play with big ones), it is pretty even matchup, as long as you space well. Same goes with Marth. Every bad matchup Lucario has is one to overcome, rather than to avoid.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Play mind games with your aura sphere. Charge it up 99% and let her try to Nayru nothing. Teh sphere punishes Din's fire very easily because she cannot cancel it. I think I'd trade a din's for an AS to her. AS is pretty dang useful in this matchup imo.

Some zelda's like to use Farore's for mindgames and some surprised damage. If you think she is going to Farore on top of you, DT. If you shoot an aura sphere and she is not doing Din's, I suggest you shield or DT immediately so that if she reflects it, no biggie.

Watch out for lightning kicks. They ****, and Lucario cannot afford to get ***** before 70% at least. Be sure you know how to DI her Usmash. I use shiek and I know how effective her fresh Usmash is at killing.

 

[Timbers]

I never thought of DTing farores, but I'm willing to bet that she can throw a shield up before DT connects.

Regarding farores being used offensively, if you're able to powershield the farores then you can dsmash her before she can react. If you don't PS it then simply grabbing her is fine too.

 

[manhunter098]

Some zelda's like to use Farore's for mindgames and some surprised damage. If you think she is going to Farore on top of you, DT. If you shoot an aura sphere and she is not doing Din's, I suggest you shield or DT immediately so that if she reflects it, no biggie.

Yep, and dont make the mistake I did and thinking that you can space her reflector like Pit, Fox, or Wolf's. Its size makes that aura sphere return a little faster.


I also like the aura sphere mindgames, they would be incredibly useful in this (or any matchup where the opponent has a reflector).


Also, something to note is that its incredibly easy to just sit there and charge your aura sphere and then spot dodge when she tries to use Din's fire on you. It might take you a little while to charge it all the way, but if you know what you are doing she will never touch you, you can actually react fast enough to PS dins based on Zeldas actions, or I could just be fooling myself because the timing is really easy, but I tend to successfully PS it a lot.

Also keeping a charged aura sphere is a great deterrent for keeping her from using Din's fire. Sure she can stop it early and probably shield it, but if she starts too close to you, first things first just toss that aura sphere, it doesnt matter if Dins hits you, because that Aura Sphere is going to hurt Zelda a whole lot more.

 

[tedward2000]

*not a review*
(based on Tourney experience)

Zelda can juggle!!
Granted I still won this match, but only because of Lucario's wonderful Aura boost. But up until that, Zelda was play air pin-ball with everyone there including my Lucario.

Zelda offensive, scary.
AuraBoost, can be deciding factor.

thats all for now, *flees*
-t2

 

[G-Beast]

okay i was having some serious trouble finding zelda mains that would actually brawl me, so i havent learned too much... so ill post what i know, or think i know

Behavior of Character- Zelda seems to be very grounded, but is not afraid to take to the air.

Fundamental Moves- Dins fire. used very consistenly, it has a HUGE hitbox but dosent seem to KO untill extremely high %, but she can use when your off stage, thats when it gets really dangerous. its her main damage builder.

fair, and bair. both very powerful when sweetspotted, and very fast.. it may have been nerfed from melee but its still quite strong. it also outranges our fair and bair, but only very slightly on bair. its generally not something to worry about because it has to be very spot on, which is very hard to do.. but it is somethng to be aware of.

usmash. probably her best smash, its range isnt anything spectacular, but it is powerful and has pretty good priority. dair beats it but most people see dair coming... you should be more worried about her uair then usmash if your above her.

uair. not used nearly as much as the others, but it seems to be able to through our dair alot from what i found.

nayrus love. not used often, but it is a reflector and does a nice bit of damage if used at close range. also quite laggy

How to Win- most of our attacks have better range and priority. being below zelda is a good position for us since uair AND usmash will get her. DT all the dins fire that come your way, its really easy to do. her recovery has really long range, and she stalls a bit in the air after she reappears, let her make friends with aura sphere if you can, especially since its not hard to predict were she will go

Recommended Stages- i honestly i have no idea, i played only on FD and yoshi's island and lylat cruise, none seemed to influence the outcome of the match

 

[Timbers]

G-beast I'm not sure where you're pulling this information.

Zelda's fair and bair are the same range as Luc's fair. The sweetspot in both of those has less range than fair.

Din's won't be used unless you're coming back to the stage, where she can force you into compromising positions.

Lylat ***** Zelda's recovery, forcing her to recover onto the stage in some situations. Lylat platforms also let her abuse her defenses more than usual, so it's a tossup. I'd say it's one of her worse stages, but Luc isn't very good on Lylat either.

Ideal stage for Luc against Zelda would be Japes, however the Zeldas I have played in a tourney setting have enjoyed banning this stage against me. Water ***** her recovery and high ceiling is nice for you. I'm sure you could do well on Mansion and Frigate too.

 

[G-Beast]

you might want to read my opening statement before you post anything
but its too late for that isnt it? no matter, just read it next time your here

 

[-Mars-]

Luigis Mansion is one of Zeldas best stages. In fact, it may be her best stage.

 

[Fizzle]

Anybody know which way to SDI out of usmash? Fsmash is really easy to DI out of, but I can only rarely get out of her usmash.

But, yeah, the main idea here is to force her approach. Zelda's approaches are garbage, but she can spam her quick smashes and stuff if you're in too close. Other than that (and an occasional lightning kick or two) she's not too hard for Luc to handle.

 

[G-Beast]

im gonna say a 65-45 in Lucario's favor
i think 70-30 is pushing it.. but can be sniffed at

 

[Timbers]

you might want to read my opening statement before you post anything
but its too late for that isnt it? no matter, just read it next time your here

what does that have to do with anything. If your info is incorrect I'll undoubtedly correct it for you, I don't care how inexperienced you are on the match. Testing the range on movesets is a 5 minute job too, and completely irrelevant to the actual matchup.

Anybody know which way to SDI out of usmash? Fsmash is really easy to DI out of, but I can only rarely get out of her usmash.

But, yeah, the main idea here is to force her approach. Zelda's approaches are garbage, but she can spam her quick smashes and stuff if you're in too close. Other than that (and an occasional lightning kick or two) she's not too hard for Luc to handle.

SDI the opposite way her hand is moving is what I hear. I get out of it, but it's a somewhat rare case. I've never seen someone SDI the usmash consistantly.

I wouldn't exaggerate how easy the match is assuming she has to approach. Her spacing game is still top notch and she has several options to keep Luc from reaching a high auraboost.

im gonna say a 65-45 in Lucario's favor
i think 70-30 is pushing it.. but can be sniffed at

55:45 or 60:40 I'd say.

 

[Fizzle]

I wouldn't exaggerate how easy the match is assuming she has to approach. Her spacing game is still top notch and she has several options to keep Luc from reaching a high auraboost.

Never said the matchup was easy. Merely saying it's not as bad as some of Luc's other matchups. Definitely a 60-40.