~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Timbers]

Usmash is too slooooow.

This.

Luc's utilt is 2x faster (at it's peaked vertical range) than usmash, and usmash has considerably more lag. She can easily bait the usmash, float away, and fair you when you're vulnerable.

Usmash is something you should like never use. I'm honestly trying to find uses for it, but anything it can do utilt can do better.

 

[Samuelson]

the only time i ever use Usmash is when i mess up an Up Tilt and the only reason i'm messing up Utilt's is because i'm getting used to Tap Jump haha

 

[Fizzle]

Usmash is a good (although very situational) move that will only work when used wisely. I use it as a tech chase and to punish some recoveries onstage - space animals' side b, reverse shuttleloop, zelda teleport, etc. Only use this move when you're sure there's a clear opening. It's very powerful at high aura and even more powerful when charged. Usmash has some use - you just have to be really smart with it.

To beat peach's floated dair approach, I'll usually use utilt or sh nair oos. Sh nair retreat to fsmash is good.

People should be using utilt a lot more. Luc's ground game is relatively slow compared to the top tiers, but his 5 frame utilt (rear hitbox) is one of his fastest moves. To me, it's Luc's replacement dsmash and much more.

 

[Timbers]

Luc's utilt is great.

 

[phi1ny3]

Luc's utilt is great.

I second that notion. It has so many uses, ranging from low % juggler to roll punisher to setups. Just a beautiful move overall.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Usmash pretty much requires prediction on your part. For someone like me, who almost always jumps after an enemy who takes to the air, pulling it out midmatch can be unexpected and result in a KO.

Of course, the same things can be said about DT, and we all know how bad that is. Usmash is to be used sparingly. If you use it more than once or twice a match and let your opponent start catching a whiff of when you're going to use it, you'll be very sorry.

Utilt OOS is sexy.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

So Utilt is an important move for this matchup?

 

[DuskMarthWater]

This is a Peach match-up discussion, is it not? It's not the usmash and utilt discussion. Talk about which one is better to use in this match-up. Sometimes the usmash is good, but not against a Peach. Definitely not. utilt owns. Yep.

 

[Browny]

Ok this thread is dead. Need someone else to organise it, update, go into other boards etc or we wont be done till mid next year. +1 vote for timbers to keep it alive, I could do it if no one else wants to though

 

[tedward2000]

OK, long over due. Sorryz.

Peach.
The Princess of the Mushroom Pantaloons.
Mario's #1 squeeze and Boswer's only source of ideas of taking over the Mushroom Kingdom. She's in from Melee for yet another reinstatement of this game we call fun.

Peach Can Fly Forever (< to be said in the highest voice you can). She keeps her own quirks while loses a few good ones. One such "ability" is the ability to float. Its a double edged sword to a degree. It allows her to get to platforms below her with ease of a princess. However, anything above her is out of her reach.

Toad and Turnips still come out of her wazoo, along with the random Mr.Saturn and the black bomb fiend. She magically whips out instruments of sports and wacks you with them. And backhanding and hovering aerials remain loyal subjects. Aerials are top notch as well.

Some note worthy changes though are her side-b and most importantly Dsmash. "Butt bomb" as it was refer'd to by some, was a high damage projectile of an a$$. In Brawl, the range it less and now, its hearts. The real kicker is Dsmash. This move made babies cry in melee. Now, its weak and not nearly as manly.

Along the lines of Lucairo vs Peach.
Its lucario's game, priority, range and aerials make this match tilted.

(many thanks to Jeeps for reminding me to do this many times.)
-tedward2000

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ok this thread is dead. Need someone else to organise it, update, go into other boards etc or we wont be done till mid next year. +1 vote for timbers to keep it alive, I could do it if no one else wants to though

I second this nomination.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Wow.

Do you guys even know how much work I've put into this thread?


Peach will be finished today.

 

[phi1ny3]

Ya, as a fellow matchup thread maker, I know it's not that easy to update (and mine is way more easier to make than urs, so it is no easy task of keeping up with this thread).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wow.

Do you guys even know how much work I've put into this thread?


Peach will be finished today.

Note, that was only if you died or couldn't update for one reason or another.

 

[tedward2000]

"Ok this thread is dead. Need someone else to organise it, update, go into other boards etc or we wont be done till mid next year. +1 vote for timbers to keep it alive, I could do it if no one else wants to though "

No.
For one, its dying because "Order" was implemented, and ppl stopped coming and now chill in the IRC.
Two, Jeeps has put a LOT of work into one of the best character discussion on SWF. He's done a great job, and it takes a long time partly cause of ppl not being on.

We're a dying thread. Lets not change the one thread that actually does something.
-t2

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Alright, Peach is done. Also editted in djpwn and Timber's info on Snake.

Zelda tomorrow.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yay! One of my recent secondaries is up next!

 

[Browny]

well before we get to it, I have a decent amount of experience with Zelda. 2 people who place high at tourneys near me use her so im up against them often enough.

ill take a shot at the fundamental moves...

fsmash/usmash - Spammable, high priority, insane range damage dealing attacks that are her equivalent of snakes ftilt. Not only are they very quick to release, they have such low lag afterwards and high shield push that punishing them with lucario is very difficult, if not impossible.

dtilt - Zeldas secret weapon, has a very high trip %, combos into itself multiple times, decent enough range and of course leads into ftilt/fsmash for a KO. One of her best moves as far as im concerned. You really need to stay out of this range just as you would to avoid luigis jab-upb

Utilt/ftilt/dsmash - Fantastic killing moves. all extremely fast, powerful and DI'ing them properly is very difficult and is often too quick to react to. Nothing else really to be said here, any one of these can KO at moderate %'s (expecially utilt) and with such a variety of KO moves, keeping an eye out for these is tricky.

Dins - No where near as threatening as it used to be in the early brawl days. Its merely an annoyance, used to stop you from AS camping and maybe force an airdodge as you recover below the stage in order to set up an edgehog.

nayrus - pretty obvious here, just dont fire AS from a range greater than 1/3 of FD away without preparing for a reflected one.

all her aerials - all amazingly powerful (nair might be good as an OoS option). pitiful range on f/bair and easily predictable d/uair make her air game weaker than it seems

 

[Timbers]

its worth mentioning that naryu's love has invincibility frames on startup. Often used traps are reversed naryus near the ledge to send you off the stage (if you get trapped in naryu's your spit out whatever direction zelda is facing) to set up for some very nice edgeguard opportunities for zelda. Be careful of it.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Our fsmash goes through hers. Ours also outranges hers a little bit. Ive gotten some kills by smashing when she does.

 

[Brinzy]

I'm looking at an even fight here, but I haven't really played Lucario that much.

 

[manhunter098]

I would give the advantage to Lucario. His aerials outspace Zelda's and she is going to have a much harder time killing with them against Lucario than characters with less outstanding air games. On the ground Lucario also has more range and Zelda's rather predictable recovery can be abused by Lucario to obtain some extra damage, though I wouldnt say he will gimp her often.

Im pretty sure you can also use f-air to clank with Din's Fire, allowing forward progress and protecting Lucario. You cant Aura Sphere spam Zelda much, it isnt really effective, she will force Lucario to approach. However her Naryu's love isnt a good enough reflector to keep charged Aura Spheres from being effective killing moves.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Im pretty sure you can also use f-air to clank with Din's Fire, allowing forward progress and protecting Lucario.

I think it would be easy as hell for zelda to bait you when it comes to that.

I wouldn't say lucario has an advantage. Its hard as hell to approach her and she doesnt really have trouble killing with her smashes.

 

[Greenpoe]

The biggest problem is her projectile. Used well, it can be a vicious spacing tool at long and close range. I'd even say at close range vs. Din's Fire that it's better to roll than perfect shield.

Does anyone know how full-hop->dair works as an approach to Zelda? They really seem to like u-smashing when people approach from above (thanks to her u-smash's amazing hitboxes).

Get her off the ground (u-tilt, d-tilt, anything) and you'll take her out of her comfort zone.

 

[mr_kennedy44]

I think it's even. I use both chars, but unfortunately I've never played one as the other. I think Zelda has the easier time killing Luc rather than Luc killing her. Luc can't camp her because of Naryu's Love so he is forced to approach her.

That's all I can provide though at the moment.

 

[manhunter098]

I think it would be easy as hell for zelda to bait you when it comes to that.

I wouldn't say lucario has an advantage. Its hard as hell to approach her and she doesnt really have trouble killing with her smashes.

Well for the most part its just a mixup. Its really useful the first couple times because they really dont expect it at all because its just such an odd situation. Also you can use your jumps to bait Din's fire as well, since that really is the best time for her to use it against you.

 

[Browny]

I think it's even. I use both chars, but unfortunately I've never played one as the other. I think Zelda has the easier time killing Luc rather than Luc killing her. Luc can't camp her because of Naryu's Love so he is forced to approach her.

That's all I can provide though at the moment.

not really. dins fire might force most characters with projectiles to approach, but every time zelda tries to din's camp lucario gets a free full charge aura sphere. Its not like any other projectile which will interrupt charging since dins is so slow

 

[Timbers]

Din's is bad and won't be used unless they're off the stage. Zelda cannot camp Lucario, even with naryu's. Luc has range and AS to prevent Din's spam.

Don't underestimate Zelda. Bair kills you at ridiculously low percents. Naryu's and dsmash set up very plausable spike opportunities (one of the few characters in the game that can force Luc to use ES at such low percents due to trajectory) and her spacing game is easily on par with your own.

Despite Zelda having some amazing killpower, landing them will prove difficult. So you won't be dying under 130 very often (uair is heavily telegraphed, usmash requires you to land like right on top of Zelda, fsmash CAN be DI'd+doesn't kill until 140% or so fresh, Lightning kicks require Zelda to be very close to the opponent to sweetspot, and Luc's overall better aerial game will prove difficult for Zelda to land one of these very early...ftilt/utilt have pretty flimsy range, but will kill you sooner than 130 if you do happen to screw up and somehow land right on top of Zelda...), and Zelda is light. Take advantage of that. A lot of Zelda's moves require the player to fully commit to them, which makes for some easy punishers from AS, fsmash, etc. should Zelda happen to whiff.

And...despite the situational killers she has, her dtilt sets them all up wonderfully. Dtilt pops you up into fair, usmash, utilt, ftilt, fsmash, and at lower percents can trip into dsmash. Easily considered a fundamental move to Zelda. It's really not recommended to stand in front of her long enough for her to get the dtilt off anyways, especially when you should be playing it safe and reaping the aura. Zelda simply has better closerange options than you do.

 

[Browny]

So you won't be dying under 130 very often

A lot of Zelda's moves require the player to fully commit to them, which makes for some easy punishers from AS, fsmash, etc. should Zelda happen to whiff.

And...despite the situational killers she has,

x3

Zelda is a KO powerhouse, few characters in the game rvial her amount of low % killers. Surely you cant expect an enemy zelda to not be able to land at least one of her 11 or so KO moves, which can all KO below 110, often.

How is this a problem for zelda? she doesnt need to commit to anything except playing as defensive as possible with her smashes which are very hard to punish. sure she has to commit to rather long lasting attacks, but that doesnt mean you can punish the lag, even the turtle is easier to punish.

you really cant ignore situational killers when she has so many. whole point of having a strong situational killer is to KO at rare opportunities... when almost all of her aerials (including a meteor), tilts, smashes and even throws can KO, there is ALWAYS a KO move for every situation.

 

[Timbers]

Okay for starters, even the Zelda mains have come to the consensus that usmash and fsmash are used for racking damage. A fresh usmash will kill Luc at around 115, but in order for Zelda to land this you have to literally be right on top of her. That's right at 115. Any competent player is aware of when certain moves will kill their character, and will be extra careful to avoid it as long as possible. Living until 130 against Zelda is common. Fsmash, even when fresh, is insanely easy to SDI. It should not be held as a killer for Zelda. Higher percents only make it easier to escape.

Utilt is in the same boat as usmash. Difficult to land right at killer percents, as it's range is even less than usmash, and it'll require very tight spacing to get a dtilt to utilt off successfully. I'm not sure what ftilt percentage is for KO, but it is weaker than usmash. I'd place it around 125-130 before you hit blastzones.

Both fair and bair are scary killers, as they're relatively safe given the risk/reward factor, but attempting to use either headon with Luc's lingering, overpowering aerials will definitely not be granting her a lightning kick every stock.

I don't know who gets hit by uair anymore. Zelda's running speed is kind of lol, and her airspeed isn't amazing either. So long as you don't like, land right on top of her, you're fine. It's very predictable.

Dsmash is scary too. At the edge that kills at very low percents (like 110 fresh?) but I've seen this used in Zelda's usual damage racking before, so the chance of it being fresh, or you being caught on the edge to be dsmashed, is not going to be common.

What else did I miss? 11 killmoves is certainly stretching it.

And I'm taking well into account Zelda's killpower. Living until 130 with Luc is not an amazing feat, as Snake usually runs more along the lines of 120-150, MK 140-160 (without gimps), etc.


Lucario vs. Zelda posted in Zelda boards:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199697

OMG THE BIG GIANT CHART OF JEEPY MATCHUPS
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/mootmootmoot/LucarioMatchupChart-1copy-15.png

 

[Browny]

Good. its a horrible misconception (that im sure no on here has) that zeldas smashes are used for anything less than damage racking, and often a fatal mistake when a fresh tilt KO's at silly %'s.

but 11 isnt pushing it, numbers off the top of my head...
Fair, bair, uair < 90
utilt, usmash < 110
ftilt, fsmash < 120
and at the edge of the stage, dsmash and bthrow < 120

dins fire and dair can KO... but they wont often. (more often than PKT2 though lol). Also remember not all battles take place at the centre of FD

anyway i know her fsmash has amazingly large shield push, anyone know about usmash for platform pressure? like if you shield it, will it push you off the side into falling state. I dont think it does... but if so might be a case for using lylat as a CP (if it wasnt already for her recovery having issues there)

 

[Timbers]

If she usmashes under you itll poke your shield, which is dumb. lol.

Bthrow won't kill until like 160? You gotta learn to DI these throws. I'm not sure if 160 is accurate, but I've lived well into 140s from a Zelda bthrow.

Everything else I can see as potential killers, but plausable ones are really limited to bair, fair, dsmash, usmash (am I missing one?)...unless Zelda just came back on a fresh stock then throw in a few others as well.

And I'm aware that center stage isn't always where the match takes place, but it's where we should keep the numbers. Lucario can kill as early as 70% on the edge of FD with aurasphere and fsmash, but for sanity's sake it's best just to keep the numbers in the center of the stage. On the ledge, Luc can kill with ftilt, bair, dair, forcepalm, aurasphere, fsmash, dsmash, fthrow (no DI), nair. A lot more moves become "killers" on the ledge, but listing the plausable ones are obviously the most important to this discussion.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I would give the advantage to Lucario. She is faster but he has a much better air game and gimp capability, as well as larger range and a better projectile. His dair can also beat her best weapon, her usmash.

Although Zelda does have the TOOLS to win, it is an uphill fight for her. I would put it 55:45 in Lucario's favor. Zelda is faster but if the Lucario keeps his spacing then the match should be in his favor.

 

[JDGreat]

Zelda is your typical glass cannon. High attack power, while also being extremely light and easy to KO if you can land something on her. Din's Fire is quite annoying but as someone else said, free Aura Charge. Plus, if you can anticipate where she teleports from the UpB, then you can get a free uncharged smash in. Semi-Charged if you're lucky.

I don't think I'm looking forward to next week though...

 

[G-Beast]

gonna fight some Zelda's to learn more about the fight, i havent fought many. gonna post later today or tomorow

 

[-Mars-]

One thing that no one mentioned in this thread so far is that bair is a good out of shield option, in fact sometimes it's one of the few ways you can land it.

I agree Dins Fire isn't much of a factor in this matchup, in fact dins fire is never a factor in most matchups. It is ok for forcing the airdodge to lead into some gimp opportunities but that's it.

As for her uair, it outprioritizes dair, so Lucario users will have to watch out for that. Uair isn't as hard to land as some people think, your almost forced to airdodge if Zelda is underneath you so I personally just wait out the airdodge and punish. SH uairs are also something you should be looking out for, if you get predictable Zelda can sometimes punish with it.

Also Zelda's horizontal movement speed is not that bad:

Character - Horizontal Air Speed

"S Class"
Yoshi - 4.04
Jigglypuff - 3.87
Wario - 3.71
Wolf - 3.63
Captain Falcon - 3.63

"A Class"
Sonic - 3.36
Donkey Kong - 3.36
Lucas - 3.30
Bowser - 3.30
Squirtle - 3.27
Mr. Game & Watch - 3.24
Marth - 3.24

"B Class"
Zero Suit Samus - 3.13
Charizard - 3.07
Zelda - 3.02
Samus - 2.97
Lucario - 2.95
Ness - 2.92
Mario - 2.92

"C Class"
Snake - 2.88
Toon Link - 2.83
Ike - 2.83
Pikachu - 2.74
Peach - 2.74
R.O.B. - 2.70
Pit - 2.70
Fox - 2.70
Falco - 2.70

"D Class"
Ganondorf - 2.62
Kirby - 2.59
Sheik - 2.57
Olimar - 2.55
Diddy Kong - 2.50
Link - 2.45

"F Class"
Meta Knight - 2.35
Ivysaur - 2.32
Ice Climbers - 2.32
Luigi - 2.29
King Dedede - 2.10

her ground speed is horrible, but in the air, she's actually pretty quick side-to-side.

You combine this with her air speed and all of the fast attacks she has and you can be very quick with Zelda. Buffered dsmashes and dtilts come out insanely fast and can give Lucario some problems.

The matchup is in Lucarios favor, some things Zelda depends on(in particular fsmash and usmash), are almost completely taken out of the matchup. His range on the ground is insane and his priority in the air is superior.....I don't know the final numbers but it is in his favor.

 

[Timbers]

Luc can stall with dairs if he feels he's landing in a bad spot. He's not a run of the mill char where baiting the airdodge will be easy.

I'm pretty sure Luc is large enough for Zelda to bair/fair oos too, thanks for bringing that up.

As for her aerial DI, she's like the same as Lucario. Luc does have trouble with baiting airdodges, as his ability to pursue characters can be difficult (Snake, DDD, Ike are really the only characters that come to mind for effective airdodge baiting, and half of that is due to slow air games), and Luc's midair jump is pretty amazing as well..whereas Zelda's is so-so.

I won't doubt you, as I don't play Zelda, just saying that from my experience, Luc deals with any sort of airdodge baiting much more well than most, thanks to his stalling. It's not as effective as Fox's shinestall, but it gets the job done.

Oh and I'm not talking that she's bad at pursuing a character, just landing a relatively slow move (uair) isn't going to be a common thing with Zelda.

 

[-Mars-]

Luc can stall with dairs if he feels he's landing in a bad spot. He's not a run of the mill char where baiting the airdodge will be easy.

I'm pretty sure Luc is large enough for Zelda to bair/fair oos too, thanks for bringing that up.

As for her aerial DI, she's like the same as Lucario. Luc does have trouble with baiting airdodges, as his ability to pursue characters can be difficult (Snake, DDD, Ike are really the only characters that come to mind for effective airdodge baiting, and half of that is due to slow air games), and Luc's midair jump is pretty amazing as well..whereas Zelda's is so-so.

I won't doubt you, as I don't play Zelda, just saying that from my experience, Luc deals with any sort of airdodge baiting much more well than most, thanks to his stalling. It's not as effective as Fox's shinestall, but it gets the job done.

Oh and I'm not talking that she's bad at pursuing a character, just landing a relatively slow move (uair) isn't going to be a common thing with Zelda.

Oh i'm sure you can avoid uair with stalling, but it does outprioritize dair so you always have to be on the alert for it. Just bringing it into the discussion.

I have loads of trouble with the Lucario matchup, so anything I can learn about him will be beneficial to me as well.

 

[phi1ny3]

If she usmashes under you itll poke your shield, which is dumb. lol.

Bthrow won't kill until like 160? You gotta learn to DI these throws. I'm not sure if 160 is accurate, but I've lived well into 140s from a Zelda bthrow.

Everything else I can see as potential killers, but plausable ones are really limited to bair, fair, dsmash, usmash (am I missing one?)...unless Zelda just came back on a fresh stock then throw in a few others as well.

And I'm aware that center stage isn't always where the match takes place, but it's where we should keep the numbers. Lucario can kill as early as 70% on the edge of FD with aurasphere and fsmash, but for sanity's sake it's best just to keep the numbers in the center of the stage. On the ledge, Luc can kill with ftilt, bair, dair, forcepalm, aurasphere, fsmash, dsmash, fthrow (no DI), nair. A lot more moves become "killers" on the ledge, but listing the plausable ones are obviously the most important to this discussion.

I think utilt has potential to be killer for Zelda, tho it's a bit situational.

 

[Browny]

???

utilt is my #1 ko move whenever i play as her. That thing is almost as good as DDD utilt and i wouldnt be surprised if its faster