~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[deepseadiva]

Peach has better options edgeguarding Lucario than Lucario does Peach. That no where near means that Peach is ungimpable and Lucario is as helpless as olimar (which you've now taken back)

I never said Peach is ungimpable. I just said it's very easy to edgeguard/hog Lucario.

Aurasphere forces an airdodge from Peach when she's recovering, halting her float and putting her into her terrible airdodge. Obviously not foolproof, but neither are turnips.

The difference here is that if both characters are forced to perform an airdodge - the character with hitboxes on their upb is going to be returning to the stage.

You gotta knock him out of his midair first. His fair does a good job at protecting him, too. His midair has great height on it, which I come back to saying that semispikes or WoPs are really the only thing that can gimp him. Turnips lack the horizontal knockback to gimp his midair AND uB.

Knockback isn't the only thing that causes a gimp - it's also a discontinuation of momentum that gimps. Turnips do this.

How is it irrelevant? Peach made the Lucario use his midair and didn't even have to knock Lucario out of the midair. It was like a freebie because Luc screwed up. There's very few moves in this game that can force Lucario to use his midair (under 100%) so early in the recovery process.

I'll give you Peach fsmash (despite being 10x easier to punish than her fair), but your example is still very flawed.

Once again: I'm not arguing how Lucario got where he was, sure, bad DI, a fsmash from Peach, a grounded fair, a sideb, it does not matter HOW Lucario got where he was (as impossible as it is to get a Lucario off stage for some reason) - that's not the point.
It's his options returning that fail.

Snake should cypher as soon as he's knocked out. Unless you've somehow got a pseudo-WoP going with your float, there's no way Peach is quick enough to chase his cypher.

She is quick enough. She is also weak in KO power, which is why she'll be close enough to reach him in time to get to the flailing Snake.

I've played ROB. GaW, MK, Marth, Lucario, Kirby all terrorize his recovery. He won't be gimped (unless Meta gets a shuttleloop on his uB for stagespike) but he'll take damage. Like I said, anything that outranges ROB does their job at harassing his uB.

I was talking about Peach vs. ROB, as I was talking about Peach vs. Snake.

Everything Gea said is right. Er well, the 1 dair=1 turnip is debatable (lol) but that's kind of irrelevant. Luc dair stalling isn't that great anyways.

It works very well.

Turnips pressure Luc's recovery. They won't gimp (or shouldn't gimp) but they can force you into poor decisions and options. Like I said, if Peach does get you to ES onto the stage, she can nip you with a fair. Good 15% right there.

I think that's as far as I'll get. Yay...
SO, unto the rest of the matchup:

How will Peach get her gimps KOs? Timber's you mention this:

I'll give you Peach fsmash (despite being 10x easier to punish than her fair)

You know her fsmash punishes your fsmash right? Otherwise I usually recover from below against Lucario, the fsmash has weirdo hitboxes that hit through my parasol sometimes.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

*Stuff*
You know her fsmash punishes your fsmash right?

Wait, what?

 

[deepseadiva]

Wait, what?

It has a nice window of startup lag and Peach's comes out faster. At higher percents Peach should be avoiding it like the plague, but early on it's rather simple to deal with.

 

[Timbers]

I never said Peach is ungimpable. I just said it's very easy to edgeguard/hog Lucario.

But it's not easy to edgeguard Lucario as Peach. The only thing Peach has that will outprioritize Luc's fair is her own fair.

The difference here is that if both characters are forced to perform an airdodge - the character with hitboxes on their upb is going to be returning to the stage.

Luc gets much more vertical range on his uB than Peach.

Why would both characters be airdodging again?

Knockback isn't the only thing that causes a gimp - it's also a discontinuation of momentum that gimps. Turnips do this.

In Luc's case, it's strictly knockback. If Turnips knocked Luc downwards each time he was hit, then I'd agree that turnips are good at gimping his recovery. Instead they knock him upwards+away, which really does nothing but stall his recovery (while taking additional damage) and forcing him into a poor position. As stated, it won't gimp without the aid of the Lucario's own mistakes. Considering this is character matchup and not player matchup, I don't think thats relevant.

Once again: I'm not arguing how Lucario got where he was, sure, bad DI, a fsmash from Peach, a grounded fair, a sideb, it does not matter HOW Lucario got where he was (as impossible as it is to get a Lucario off stage for some reason) - that's not the point.
It's his options returning that fail.

It's as easy to get Luc off the stage as it is with any other character. It's just the trajectory he's sent that determines whether he's in a critical position or not when recovering. Peach really has no followups worth noting on Lucario offstage except the turnips (or if you're daring, the f-air)

Peach's fair doesn't send an opponent that low. No DI, Peach's fair sends them at roughly a 40 degree angle. The angle shown in that video was more like 15-20 degrees or something awful like that. For the 5th or 6th time, it was player error, not character error. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but this is a character matchup thread, not player matchup. Bad DI doesn't prove an example. Had the fair been DI'd normally, Lucario would have been able to reach the stage ledge without a uB. That's what I'm talking about. That's why this example is bad.

It works very well.

Sorry? Maybe you forgot that I um, play Lucario, but no it doesn't. Afterlag is too great to be an effective stall, and as you said, "Luc's uB is bad." Dair stall makes Luc vulnerable, and anyone on the ledge will be more than welcome to knock him out even further as he just stalls there like an idiot with no hitbox protecting him. Dair stalling is effective in throwing off pursuit when returning to the ground, not for recovering.

How will Peach get her gimps KOs? Timber's you mention this:



You know her fsmash punishes your fsmash right? Otherwise I usually recover from below against Lucario, the fsmash has weirdo hitboxes that hit through my parasol sometimes.

Between this and your recent post, I'm questioning your credibility. Your fsmash punishes Luc's fsmash because...it comes out quicker? Lol what is this.

No.

Your fsmash would have to come out quicker, and exceed Luc's fsmash to "punish" it. Luc's fsmash is the most powerful at the tip, and that's where Lucarios will be spacing it. Your fsmash lacks the range to punish the startup at this range.

Seriously you should say something that's worth half believing, like Peach's float->dair/fair punishing fsmashes.

As far as Peach's kills, her um..fair? Easily the most common thing I die to against Peach.

Decided to open a Lucario vs. Peach thread in Peach boards, to iron out any clashing opinions on the matchup. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197020

 

[manhunter098]

Just for reference, when I was talking about d-air stall adding options before, I didnt mean its a good thing to do when you are horizontal to the stage level, but rather when you are making a return, to help throw off timing and things like that when you are already at a more or less safe distance.

The edge game for these two characters in relation to each other is rather situational. It requires that one player make a mistake and its not as easy as simply knocking a character off stage using a fast move with very horizontal (and at least moderate) knockback since I am pretty certain that none of Lucario's or Peach's moves have all of those attributes. Knowing how to handle situations is critical to the outcome of a match, but its not exactly important in determining the matchup, for a matchup, you have to either assume nobody makes mistakes, or everyone is just as likely to make a mistake.

 

[Timbers]

Peach's fsmash (I think it's the golfclub) has some pretty good horizontall knockback. I think it's the tennis racket that is like, all horizontal, but has trashy knockback.

That's about it though, and even if she does land the fsmash, it's entirely chance (to my knowledge) that she'll get the club and not the racket or pan.

Horizontal knockback isn't so much a problem for Peach considering she's capable of recovering from about anywhere with her float. Aurasphere can force an airdodge however, killing her float. I'm not sure up to what percents her fair will outprioritize the aurasphere, but it does hold a lot of priority.

 

[Praxis]

K, I haven't read all of this, but Lucario is the matchup I have the most experience with. My rival plays Lucario, the only person I have to practice with day in and out, and I've fought Lucario a lot.


Peach has the following on Lucario.

+ Aerial priority. Her Fair destroys everything he has if properly spaced and her Bair outprioritizes the majority of his moveset. Fair chains do not work as her Nair comes out in two frames and trades hits with his fair (though you can fair > nair I believe).

+ Utilt. Lucario's love dair. Peaches utilt consistently outprioritizes it with no problem.

+ Turnps. Turnips lead into combos, whether it's glide toss to jab-grab (jabs lead to grabs consistently on Lucario out of hitstun from the jab) or glidetossing up and following with other attacks, or throwing the turnip in the air and chasing it with an attack. Turnips lead to gimps.

+ Gimps. I seriously rely on gimps. It's not unusual for me to land at least one gimp every match.

+ Float makes fsmash spam less effective.


Lucario has the following on Peach:

+ Dair beats usmash, Peach's ONLY under 100% kill move even if all of her moves are fresh. While Peach can utilt a Lucario shooting for a dair, she'll almost never land usmash kills.

+ Peach's dair can't combo Lucario nearly as well as other characters. 30-40% combos instead of 50-60%.

+ Since Peach's fair can really **** Lucario in the air, and her dair isn't as effective of a combo move, fair it goes stale fast. Fair is Peach's 2nd best kill move, killing Lucario ~120% unstale. It will NEVER be nonstale unless the Peach just died.

+ Since Peach has a hard time killing Lucario at low %, the Lucario's aura makes him really powerful.

+ Aura ball spam can knock Peach out of float, even just little hits, and Lucario's rolls are fast. Lucario can camp her well.




My advice to Lucario players would be to camp the heck out of Peach. Fsmash spam will NOT be nearly as effective because of her float. If you want to be aggressive, stop doing it once you pass 90% and just camp like heck.

Turnip the second jump, the Extreme Speed is forced - Peach hogs.

No need for your fancy shmancy spikes or Wall o Pains.
Wow so like, we must be able to aurasphere Peach everytime she floats back, and that means we gimp her as easy as olimar.

Stop talking if you don't know the matchups. You clearly don't understand the usage of Peach's turnips.

So, you just used your second jump and I glide tossed a turnip at you accurately. Now I'm on the ledge, and the turnip is flying at you. What do you do?

1) You get hit. You don't make it to the ledge, and have to up-B.

2) You attack, catching the turnip.

3) You airdodge, missing the turnip.

4) You airdodge, catching the turnip.


Firstly, the airdodges might cause you to miss the ledge itself, forcing you to up-B just like in scenario 1. Assuming they don't, though, and that the Peach player is skilled- as you come out of the airdodge (or are in the lag from your attack), in scenario's 2, 3, and 4, you will get hit by a Peach fair and die, or possibly by nair or bair depending on a number of factors. Regardless, you won't make it back to the stage.

Option 1 gives the Peach a good shot at edgehogging you.

FYI- Peach is the best edgehogger in the game, due to the ability she has of being able to float against the ledge and release when she wants to grab, gaining invulnerability frames precisely when she wants them. Granted, that's unnecessary for Lucario's up-B, but if Lucario's trying to throw an aura sphere at you or tip you with a uair as he's falling, you can release and get the invulnerability frames, and then just hold the ledge.


I'd put the matchup at 55-45 Lucario's favor, or possibly even. I recently demolished Oregon's best Lucario- I thought I did well against WA's best Lucario just because I knew him too well (being my rival), but beating the best Lucario in another state made me wonder if the matchups are more even than I previously thought. Or maybe he just didn't know the matchup well enough.


IMO, if Lucario camps properly, the matchup is slightly in his favor. Otherwise, it's pretty even. Lucario gets to be really powerful because of Peach's inability to kill him well, but she can gimp him easily and has a few advantages on him as well.


Peach > Lucario in the air.

Peach > Lucario when Lucario is above her (ftilt and utilt **** him).

Peach > Lucario when Lucario is below her.

Lucario > Peach when they are evenly aligned.


This is assuming straight approaches. An aggressive Lucario will not have the advantage. A campy Lucario will frustrate the Peach very much, and then gain the advantage as he grows really powerful over time.

 

[Timbers]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you missed the "Lucario is as easy as Olimar to gimp" comment that Meno made, because my post was merely mocking him.

I think I already said how dangerous Peach's fair is to Lucario's recovery. On the edge, it'll send him to the blastzone at 110 when semi-stale.

And 1 gimp a game? Are you including the fairs as gimps? Depending on how fresh and where Lucario is, those can send him to the blastzone as early as 70% when he's recovering. That has nothing to do with Luc's recovery in the slightest (if that's what you were implying) as that fair holds more priority than most recoveries in the game, lol.

If you're just throwing turnips at him, then I fail to see how a Lucario is getting gimped once a game by solely turnips.

 

[Praxis]

But it's not easy to edgeguard Lucario as Peach. The only thing Peach has that will outprioritize Luc's fair is her own fair.

It's easy. Peach's bair and fair both beat Lucario's IIRC, and nair trades hits. "Only thing"? The fact that Peach can back up while c-sticking the fair forward means that Lucario CAN'T approach her with it. And Peach has the turnips- one hit with a turnip offstage is almost always a gimp kill.

Trust me, Peach edgeguards Lucario really well. Throw turnip and chase it out with an attack, Lucario can't deal with both and then make it back to the stage without being hogged, at least easily.

In Luc's case, it's strictly knockback. If Turnips knocked Luc downwards each time he was hit, then I'd agree that turnips are good at gimping his recovery. Instead they knock him upwards+away, which really does nothing but stall his recovery (while taking additional damage) and forcing him into a poor position. As stated, it won't gimp without the aid of the Lucario's own mistakes. Considering this is character matchup and not player matchup, I don't think thats relevant.

Wrong. The turnip stalls his recovery, and Peach simply grabs the ledge. If the Lucario is close enough to go OVER the ledge, Peach can jump/nair him right back off (Nair comes out in two frames, you can do it instantly as you jump to take people off who are standing on the ledge. Also, Peach's uair does something even better, discussed below).

Meanwhile Lucario edgeguarding Peach isn't that great. Lucario's often pressure opponents by spamming fsmash on the ledge. Peach can actually drop and uair, her uair rising THROUGH the stage and hitting the Lucario who is fsmashing on top. She can pretty much stall on the ledge forever and the Lucario can't do a thing about it.

It's as easy to get Luc off the stage as it is with any other character. It's just the trajectory he's sent that determines whether he's in a critical position or not when recovering. Peach really has no followups worth noting on Lucario offstage except the turnips (or if you're daring, the f-air)

Daring? Turnips + fair works wonders, change it to a nair if he tries to use his up-B.

Between this and your recent post, I'm questioning your credibility. Your fsmash punishes Luc's fsmash because...it comes out quicker? Lol what is this.

No.

Your fsmash would have to come out quicker, and exceed Luc's fsmash to "punish" it. Luc's fsmash is the most powerful at the tip, and that's where Lucarios will be spacing it. Your fsmash lacks the range to punish the startup at this range.

Ok yeah that confused me a lot. I don't know where he's getting it from. I do everything in my power to avoid the fsmashes- Peach has nothing that beats it. I'll just float over it and try to dair Lucario without getting utilted, or run back and spam turnips.

 

[Praxis]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you missed the "Lucario is as easy as Olimar to gimp" comment that Meno made, because my post was merely mocking him.

I think I already said how dangerous Peach's fair is to Lucario's recovery. On the edge, it'll send him to the blastzone at 110 when nonstale.

Oh, I indeed missed it. Certainly untrue, Olimar's WAY easier to gimp.

I still do get gimp kills on Lucario very often, usually once per match, though not always. Not like Olimar and Link who I usually gimp for every kill with Peach's float tricks and turnips. xD

Guess I took it out of context, sorry.

And 1 gimp a game? Are you including the fairs as gimps? Depending on how fresh and where Lucario is, those can send him to the blastzone as early as 70% when he's recovering. That has nothing to do with Luc's recovery in the slightest (if that's what you were implying) as that fair holds more priority than most recoveries in the game, lol.

Yeah, I count offstage fairs as gimps, because Peach usually can't kill at that percentages.

And it DOES have to do with his recovery- his attempts to recover influence his spacing and limit his methods around me when other characters would have just up-B'd through me.

 

[Timbers]

It's easy. Peach's bair and fair both beat Lucario's IIRC, and nair trades hits. "Only thing"? The fact that Peach can back up while c-sticking the fair forward means that Lucario CAN'T approach her with it. And Peach has the turnips- one hit with a turnip offstage is almost always a gimp kill.

Trust me, Peach edgeguards Lucario really well. Throw turnip and chase it out with an attack, Lucario can't deal with both and then make it back to the stage without being hogged, at least easily.

Luc's fair is, at the very least, even in range with Peach's bair. Not that this really matters, but the lingering, disjointed hitbox is just added comfort. Fair is still scary. Nair should not trade hits, unless Luc is like, right on top of you. I've knocked Peach out of their nairs with fairs before.

Turnips do not gimp Lucario on their own. I said this before, turnips pressure Luc into making hasty decisions, oftentimes punished by the fair

Wrong. The turnip stalls his recovery, and Peach simply grabs the ledge. If the Lucario is close enough to go OVER the ledge, Peach can jump/nair him right back off (Nair comes out in two frames, you can do it instantly as you jump to take people off who are standing on the ledge. Also, Peach's uair does something even better, discussed below).

Luc's ledgesnap is amazing. If you let go of that ledge you're giving yourself a very small window to hit him, much less hit him the opposite way and not towards the stage. The only time a nair off the ledge has ever effectively worked on me was an MK, and that's because his midair actually lets him raise above the ledge >.> Peach stays underneath the ledge, so you'd really need to have that Luc in a vertically steep position to actually pull that off.

Meanwhile Lucario edgeguarding Peach isn't that great. Lucario's often pressure opponents by spamming fsmash on the ledge. Peach can actually drop and uair, her uair rising THROUGH the stage and hitting the Lucario who is fsmashing on top. She can pretty much stall on the ledge forever and the Lucario can't do a thing about it.

?

Peach's uair can't hit a Lucario from underneath the stage. Where the fsmash tip sits (right over the ledge) Luc is still plenty far enough away to avoid the uair. He's actually further into the stage than the entire lip of most stages. The Luc would have to be standing right on the edge to be hit by this. The only thing you've said so far that has baffled the hell out of me.

Daring? Turnips + fair works wonders, change it to a nair if he tries to use his up-B.

Simply a play on words. I can't stress how much I've mentioned the fair being scary in this match.

Yeah, I count offstage fairs as gimps, because Peach usually can't kill at that percentages.

And it DOES have to do with his recovery- his attempts to recover influence his spacing and limit his methods around me when other characters would have just up-B'd through me.

I was just making sure. I don't think I'd go as far to say I'm killed via fair under 100% once a game, but it's certainly a realistic happening.

I read it as you throwing a turnip out there to stop his midair while simutaneously fairing him? To me that sounds like you just interrupted his midair and punished him for it. Unless Luc's recovery had 2 frame startup then I just see this as Peach's ability to setup killers. Outside of Marth and MK, I can't think of anyone that couldn't be setup by turnip interrupting their midair into fair. Care to give some examples? I don't see it right now.

 

[Praxis]

Luc's fair is, at the very least, even in range with Peach's bair. Not that this really matters, but the lingering, disjointed hitbox is just added comfort. Fair is still scary. Nair should not trade hits, unless Luc is like, right on top of you. I've knocked Peach out of their nairs with fairs before.

It's the opening frames of nair that have the priority, the rest of it has low priority. So yes, only when Luc is on top of you, but that means you can't chain the fairs up because we'll trade hits on the second.

Turnips do not gimp Lucario on their own. I said this before, turnips pressure Luc into making hasty decisions, oftentimes punished by the fair

Exactly. Hence their usefulness

Peach requires a lot of thought-out strategies in this style, and any good Peach player will be used to using turnips in this manner. You don't have a choice with the turnip- let it hit you, your recovery is at risk, avoid it, and you're at risk to the next attack. The turnip in itself poses no threat, but the position it puts you in is what is nasty.

Peach's uair can't hit a Lucario from underneath the stage. Where the fsmash tip sits (right over the ledge) Luc is still plenty far enough away to avoid the uair. He's actually further into the stage than the entire lip of most stages. The Luc would have to be standing right on the edge to be hit by this. The only thing you've said so far that has baffled the hell out of me.

Lucario moves forward with each successive fair, recall? Apparently you've never seen a Peach do this. Peach's uair is disjointed- it reaches SIGNIFICANTLY in to the stage.

If you want to jump on WiFi we can play a match? I'm pretty bad on WiFi but it'd be fun and I could demonstrate.

Edrees is a huge fan of using uair in this fashion and can explain better if I can get him in here xD

Simply a play on words. I can't stress how much I've mentioned the fair being scary in this match.

I skipped the last two pages admittedly

I read it as you throwing a turnip out there to stop his midair while simutaneously fairing him? To me that sounds like you just interrupted his midair and punished him for it. Unless Luc's recovery had 2 frame startup then I just see this as Peach's ability to setup killers. Outside of Marth and MK, I can't think of anyone that couldn't be setup by turnip interrupting their midair into fair. Care to give some examples? I don't see it right now.

You're asking why this is Lucario specific?

Because with Lucario, if he lets himself get hit with the turnip OR backs up to avoid the turnip, he's going to die of an edgehog.


If I do this to Pit, he can move backwards and airdodge or even just move backwards to avoid the turnip, and he easily has enough recovery to make it back. He can even just take the hit with no problem. Same thing goes for Meta, for ROB, for G&W, for DDD...for any character with good recovery. Heck, even another Peach can make it back from this because the umbrella tip remains an active hitbox, allowing her to knock off people trying to edgehog her. But Lucario's up-B, unable to cause damage, means that if he wastes his second jump trying to avoid the turnip, Peach will edgehog him, which makes the situation much more dangerous to him.

 

[Timbers]

It's the opening frames of nair that have the priority, the rest of it has low priority. So yes, only when Luc is on top of you, but that means you can't chain the fairs up because we'll trade hits on the second.

Chaining fairs is normally not a used combination anyways. Usually fair->dair or fair->nair. The fair->nair is still dangerous against some characters depending how the fair knockback has sent them, with quick nairs, including Peach.

Exactly. Hence their usefulness

Peach requires a lot of thought-out strategies in this style, and any good Peach player will be used to using turnips in this manner. You don't have a choice with the turnip- let it hit you, your recovery is at risk, avoid it, and you're at risk to the next attack. The turnip in itself poses no threat, but the position it puts you in is what is nasty.

Basically what GEA said on this matter, setting traps and all that stuff with turnips. I agreed with most of what they said.

Lucario moves forward with each successive fair, recall? Apparently you've never seen a Peach do this. Peach's uair is disjointed- it reaches SIGNIFICANTLY in to the stage.

If you want to jump on WiFi we can play a match? I'm pretty bad on WiFi but it'd be fun and I could demonstrate.

Edrees is a huge fan of using uair in this fashion and can explain better if I can get him in here xD

Fsmash you mean? He barely moves, and spamming the fsmash is generally a bad idea, as combining fsmash ending lag with it's startup in succession is just giving a huge window to the opponent to get up. Mixing fairs, aurasphere, dtilt, and fsmash are usual tools for my edgeguarding. spamming just one thing makes luc easy to read.

2062-8848-6045 I call sleep pre-johns >_> lol

 

[EdreesesPieces]

There's two ways to use the up air from the ledge.

1) Drop from the ledge, jump again and up air. This allows you to get more range into it and position it further into the stage. If you space it right it's pretty disjointed and its hard to get hit through it.

2) Drop and up air instantly while you do. This method puts invincibility frames on Peach. Nothing can hit Peach out of it. You can throw a bomb omb at her while shes doing this and it will just hit her and do nothing, because its during ledge invincibility frames. Lucario's forward smash wont hit her. And, if he stands far enough away where he wont get hit by it, that's far enough to make it safe for Peach to move onto the stage with a simple ledge hop for safety. Trust me, if the Peach just spams this up air over and over, for like 15 seconds, eventually the window of opportunity runs up. It's not risky thanks to those invincibility frames. Not even Metaknight can gimp her out of it.

 

[Praxis]

3995 6166 9556 - I'll add you and host.

And those pre-sleep johns go both ways. xD

 

[Timbers]

But her uair is still incapable of hitting Lucario from his fsmash stance (tipper hovering the ledge) correct? You made it sound like she's just safe to stall.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I am not sure what I can add heere since there is several pages already on this. So I 'd rather answer any questions you guiys have on Peach Vs Lucario. And I wont bias it cause Peach is my main.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

But her uair is still incapable of hitting Lucario from his fsmash stance (tipper hovering the ledge) correct? You made it sound like she's just safe to stall.

The spacing is such that if he stands far enough to be out of the range of her up air, she can safely get back on the stage by just jumping on. She IS safe to stall for as long as possible, he can't hit her either. The point is to stall until Lucario loses patience and lets her back on, or slips up on his spacing, because Peach also has the option to just stall and wait for a poorly timed F-smash (chances are after 10 attemps one will be timed sligthly wrong) and this allows her to jump on the stage with a nice f-air instead.

 

[Timbers]

The spacing is such that if he stands far enough to be out of the range of her up air, she can safely get back on the stage by just jumping on. She IS safe to stall for as long as possible, he can't hit her either. The point is to stall until Lucario loses patience and lets her back on, or slips up on his spacing, because Peach also has the option to just stall and wait for a poorly timed F-smash (chances are after 10 attemps one will be timed sligthly wrong) and this allows her to jump on the stage with a nice f-air instead.

but this

Peach can actually drop and uair, her uair rising THROUGH the stage and hitting the Lucario who is fsmashing on top..

is wrong, correct?

 

[Praxis]

But her uair is still incapable of hitting Lucario from his fsmash stance (tipper hovering the ledge) correct? You made it sound like she's just safe to stall.

Correct. I noticed in our matches (GGs btw!) you were spacing it to tipper like that.

Problem is you weren't hitting me either, so the match just stalled. And I ALWAYS got back on stage without taking a hit, so mission accomplished yes? Several times while we were going back and forth on the ledge you inched within range without realizing it (you'd seriously be surprised xD) but I couldn't time it right with lag :/ You probably noticed me throwing a fair out a couple of times instead of a uair LOL!

So yeah, I hope our matches gave you my perspective. And I'm SURE the matches would be very different IRL, I'd love to try Peach's fair is a lot harder to punish against a powershield when I can autocancel into a jab more consistently, leaving only a literal 1 frame opening. I learned to do that the hard way because my rival would grab me out of shield if I didn't time my autocancels right, and Lucario's grabs HURT!


As you could see in the matches- I have to overuse Fair to keep you at bay, and it results in me not having a viable kill move since I can't land usmash well and Fair is stale. You lived to 260% that one stock 0.o when you camped me well.


Peach's killing difficulty and Lucario's aura is what makes me give the advantage to Lucario, but I wouldn't make it a huge advantage.

Why did they take away her monster fthrow from the E for All demo? T_T

Peach can actually drop and uair, her uair rising THROUGH the stage and hitting the Lucario who is fsmashing on top..

It is wrong if Lucario is spacing it to tipper with the fsmash, but from that distance Peach can simply jump up.

If Lucario is closer or fsmashes two or three times, he'll be in range.

Standing on the ledge fsmashing actually IS a viable ledgeguarding technique for Lucario against characters like DK, hehe.

Peach can stall with it, because Lucario can't get close without getting hit, and Lucario's fsmash moves him forward, so she can just keep doing it until either Lucario gets hit or leaves an opening because he has to stop and do something else at some point since fsmashes move him forward and dtilt doesn't reach far enough.


Remember, in our matches, I ALWAYS got back on the stage from the ledge without getting hit when we got in to those uair vs fsmash matches. Best thing Lucario can do is try to keep Peach from reaching the ledge- he has a hard time keeping her from climbing up.

 

[LuigiKing]

Praxis, this is off topic, but you need that clip of the stitchface **** from PAX in your sig... just saying.

 

[Timbers]

GGs.

I was more than prepared to accept that Peach can ledgestall Lucario. A good amount of characters can do that, so it wasn't like "omg blasphemy" if you just said that she could stall lol.

In our matches, it was just me lacking patience and inching closer. Were that an actual match I'd have just waited for you to come up. I was a good 60% ahead each time I was stalled, so letting the timer run wouldn't have been an issue.

I can see that if the tables were turned, and I were 60% behind, that this would be dangerous. I've never had a Peach ledgestall to the extent that you did, so I'll have to experiment and see any holes that might surface. Her stalling isn't to the degree that MK's or Pit's is, but it's still a nuisance. I kept trying to see if I could dtilt your uair, lol. And aurasphere was outprioritized by the uair at 40%, so it'd be interesting to see if it's possible to get the aurasphere large enough to eat through the lip of the stage and into Peach.

I'm pretty sure 90% of the time you got the ac'd aerials into jabs off. It shouldn't be that hard anyways, as Luc's jabs are 6 frames, and Peach's are what..2? lol. I'm already aware of her beastly air-to-ground game though.

oh and Luc's grab is, more often than not, a bad decision. Lacks the range to punish Peach, provided she spaces her aerials.

It is wrong if Lucario is spacing it to tipper with the fsmash, but from that distance Peach can simply jump up.

If Lucario is closer or fsmashes two or three times, he'll be in range.

Spamming fsmash isn't an edgeguard technique >_> The hitbox is only out for 8 frames, and 36 frames of ending/startup lag inbetween. If he's just doing it repeatedly, any player can easily time a ledgejump or whatnot while Luc is stuck in lag.

Standing on the ledge fsmashing actually IS a viable ledgeguarding technique for Lucario against characters like DK, hehe.

It's good for catching characters that go above the stage when recovering. Once they're already on the ledge, simply standing there on the tip of the edge is a bad idea. You can get about as close as dtilt range against some characters, but no closer than that.

Peach can stall with it, because Lucario can't get close without getting hit, and Lucario's fsmash moves him forward, so she can just keep doing it until either Lucario gets hit or leaves an opening because he has to stop and do something else at some point since fsmashes move him forward and dtilt doesn't reach far enough.

lol you make it sound like Luc just keeps mashing forward on his c-stick to edgeguard people. That's not true. I'll admit that Peach's low midair jump is actually a blessing in disguise for her ledgestalling, but it doesn't completely shatter Luc's gameplan.

 

[Praxis]

Praxis, this is off topic, but you need that clip of the stitchface **** from PAX in your sig... just saying.

That was so amazing They took the Wii away, I never got a hold of the replay. It was INCREDIBLE. 150% usmash straight up into a random falling stitchface.... T_T

I can see that if the tables were turned, and I were 60% behind, that this would be dangerous. I've never had a Peach ledgestall to the extent that you did,

I swear I don't normally stall like that xD I wanted to test the extend to which I could.

A lot of bits of this matchup changes off of WiFi though. It becomes even harder for us each to combo the other without the lag (airdodges FTW). My turnips become a lot more accurate for offstage followups and I can autocancel my fairs into dsmashes or jab-grabs to make them unpunishable on a grounded target. Plus, several times I took aura spheres to the face while trying to toad because of lag xD

Meanwhile Lucario's aura sphere spam becomes MUCH more dangerous to my float as you can target and predict, and my dair becomes less useful as you can time your uptilts in between the dairs.

I'm pretty sure 90% of the time you got the ac'd aerials into jabs off. It shouldn't be that hard anyways, as Luc's jabs are 6 frames, and Peach's are what..2? lol.

I got it off fairly often, but you did land grabs on me more times than I would have liked to your credit ^_^

And yes, Peach's are 2.

The one thing I wasn't using in these matches was Toad, because his timing's just too hard on WiFi. Toad mixes things up a bit- if I miss, I get punished BADLY (Aura sphere to the face?) but toading the little aura balls or some of your approaches can sometimes throw you off and do some nice damage.

Anyway, I'm going to stick with my 55-45 conclusion. Peach wins in the air, Lucario wins on the ground, Peach wins if there is a mixture (her tilts beat Lucario as he's trying to get down, and her aerials let her avoid Lucario's ground game), but she can't kill Lucario in return well and he's got a better camp game.

However, the Peach boards concluded 50-50, sooo....I dunno.

Anyway, fun games, I'm off to bed. Thanks and good night!

 

[Timbers]

Wifi adds way too many inconsistant variables to even begin to say what went wrong, but you summed it up.

I don't want to throw my numbers out there yet, as my Peach experience isn't diverse (limited to several players) so I'll let the other Lucarios and Peaches (if there are any more) give their input first.

I am not sure what I can add heere since there is several pages already on this. So I 'd rather answer any questions you guiys have on Peach Vs Lucario. And I wont bias it cause Peach is my main.

Alright. How do you feel as Peach when you're midrange with Lucario? From my perspective, I seem to be able to keep it under control, with (baby) auraspheres being able to stop most float approaches (Peach fair>aurasphere) and glidetossed turnips are generally easy to deal with.

Just would be interesting to hear from a Peach what goes through your mind when you attempt to approach a Lucario.

 

[dguy6789]

Guys, Peach is a chick.

/thread

 

[Airgemini]

Careful of grab near the ledge, her Fthrow can kill moderately early if your too close to the ledge at a high percentage.

Only if you have crappy DI.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Only if you have crappy DI.

Which I why I said careful. Even if it doesn't kill you, she'll chase you with her float to gimp you if your not someone like R.O.B.

 

[Timbers]

Her fthrow animation is pretty slow. You should be able to DI the sucker to very high percents.

 

[manhunter098]

Which I why I said careful. Even if it doesn't kill you, she'll chase you with her float to gimp you if your not someone like R.O.B.

She cant jump high enough to follow up a f-throw that was DIed properly by a Lucario.

 

[Praxis]

Peach's fthrow will not be killing. I believe Timbers was DIing my fthrow from the ledge at and surviving 200% despite WiFi lag.

 

[Gea]

lol Peach's Fthrow can't even kill on the sides of corneria. Her throws don't kill. Bthrow does decent damage from her (I wanna say like 13%? could be wrong. its her strongest throw though) and fthrow only has three uses.

1. Get them offstage. Which was mentioned. I dunno about being able to gimp afterwards, but it definitely puts pressure on you.
2. Get them into a stage obstacle. Like on pictochat.
3. Really low %s sometimes you can fthrow people into a regrab if they don't expect it. Usually dthrow is just better though.


Don't put jumping higher as an indication that you're safe. You have to come down and she has the tools to force that. Turnips and uair can force airdodges and utilt does outrange your dair (although you can dair stall to try and get us to utilt then you can dair again before we can utilt again).

What I don't get about some of you Lucario players is you put ALOT of emphasis on the fact that you can recover high. Unlike alot of matchups, Peach definitely has answers to anything you have on your descent, making your vertical positioning less important in relation to how high she can get as well. Like I said before she can pressure you even when you're high and try to force you into bad situations.

 

[G-Beast]

Behavior of Character- Peach's like their ability to float, so they spend alot of time in the air, do not forget that can do any of their aerials out of it including UpB.
Vegetables are used alot by good peaches, they are her only projectile be way though, sometimes items are pulled up , including smash balls but this is very rare

Fundamental Moves- Peach's ability to float greatly enhances their recovery, they can also stop it and start it again at will till it runs out of time, so they arent that great of a target for AS while recovering as we would like. her bair, fair, and uair are often abused. do not get hit by her fair, it might be a bit slow but it hurts. her usmash is pretty strong but pretty laggy too, it could KO you early if it lands down

How to Win- our air game is better then hers, like way better, period. so is our ground game for that matter. her utilt is bizzare, she makes a heart above her that hurts you, it is disjointed but dosent beat our demonic dair of dewm. her dashing attack has deceptive, but not overly impressive, range but it has priority. Aura Sphere should only be used as a follow up or asa punisher because of her toad she pulls out, which nullifys any frontal attacks and counterattacks, however if you use dair on this the first attack will trigger it and the second attack will cancel it out. avoid the usmash of hers, its fast and hurtful, and has almost as much range as our dair

Recommended Stages- take a peach to final destination so they cant abuse their aerials or utilt. Yoshi's island isn't bad, just be mindful of the moving platform, same goes with smashville

DO NOT go to battlefield, or any stage with platforms for that matter, her floating+aerials and utilt will be your undoing

 

[Praxis]

Vegetables are used alot by good peaches, they are her only projectile be way though, sometimes items are pulled up , including smash balls but this is very rare

Peach cannot pull Smash balls.
It can't happen. Ever.

She can pull regular turnips, dot-eye turnips (slightly more damage and knockback), stitchface turnips (30% damage, high knockback), Mr. Saturn, beamswords, and Bob-ombs. Regardless of whether or not items are turned off.

How to Win- our air game is better then hers, like way better, period. so is our ground game for that matter. her utilt is bizzare, she makes a heart above her that hurts you, it is disjointed but dosent beat our demonic dair of dewm.

You have never actually played a Peach, have you.

Utilt beats Dair every time. It outranges it and outprioritizes it (Peach's utilt cannot clank and goes through everything). And Peach's fair outranges everything in Lucario's arsenal.

 

[Airgemini]

Aw you beat me to it Praxis =p. I'll just restate some things you said.

Vegetables are used alot by good peaches, they are her only projectile be way though, sometimes items are pulled up , including smash balls but this is very rare

What?! I never knew that!! *sarcasm*

our air game is better then hers, like way better, period. so is our ground game for that matter.

I wouldn't say way better. That and the above post makes me think you've never fought a really good Peach or hardly know anything about her. No offense.

her utilt is bizzare, she makes a heart above her that hurts you, it is disjointed but dosent beat our demonic dair of dewm.

Actually Peach's Utlilt always out prioritizes his Dair.

take a peach to final destination so they cant abuse their aerials or utilt.

It might stop her Utilt but how does it stop her from abusing her aerials? We still have our float approaches.

DO NOT go to battlefield, or any stage with platforms for that matter, her floating+aerials and utilt will be your undoing

If you said dont go to any stages with platforms then why'd you put this:

Yoshi's island isn't bad, just be mindful of the moving platform, same goes with smashville

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Meh, Peach isn't really that scary when recovering from above, she doesn't really have the range other characters have to punish in those situations. alteast imo

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I actually have some experience here for once. What I can say is that treating Peach like any other matchup will cause you to lose. Seeing her constantly in the air (FLOATING there, for god's sake!) Makes it very tempting to try and go to town with some fair chains. Don't. You'll get a crown to the face. And as it's been mentioned, a good peach won't have too much trouble getting around any attempts at fsmash walls either.

Bair and AS are better bets for you here. Abuse them as much as you can against Peach, and only use fair or fsmash if you see a good opportunity.

And do try to stay away from the edge, her edgegame definitely beats ours. And since Peach has a very hard time killing Lucci normally, the edge is where she'll be most aggressive.

Almost forgot stages! I'm thinking the usual suspects here. Frigate Orpheon (We've established that clingable walls are a nice thing to have against Peach) and Luigi's Mansion? I've got no idea what to ban against her, though. Maybe you nice Peach mains could help field that one.

EDIT: Please don't feed trolls. Even moderator trolls.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

(lol@Ness being Lucario advantage...what a joke) *runs*

 

[Milln]

I refuse to participate in discussion, since I hate these topics and all you guys do is argue.

Just throwing this out there.

Peach's uair beats our dair, inexplicably. Trying to dair a Peach from high above will get you KO'd.
Peach's Fair is unpunishable on the ground when the Peach player knows what they're doing and spaces it correctly. If they're sloppy about it at all, you can shieldgrab her.
Peach's Dair often trades hits with our Uair. Our uair will only go through if we space it to perfection or do the sneaky fast fall thing we found that one time.
Peach's Nair and Bair are fantastic out of shield options for her punishment game and both have good knockback

Our best aerial tools against Peach is our Bair and Nair, and Dair when not telegraphed.
A Peach will float in such a way to where she'll be above any size of Sphere you can launch and will hover until she decides to attack. Only way i've found to combat this is an angled upward ftilt.
The best way to get an Aura Sphere to connect is to anticipate when the Peach will go into a float and jump up with her and launch your sphere there. If that's the only time you jump up the same time she does, then it'll be crazy unexpected and usually net your KO if you calculated it correctly.

Anyone who says vegetables are laughable doesn't know what they're talking about. They're annoying to have to dodge and if you catch one and don't get rid of it right away, it hinders your attack options.
Don't forget Mr. Saturns. =\ And Beam swords. Both suck when thrown at you.


Edit: Peach's Fsmash hits all around her, especially if she has the pesky golf club. >O

That was so amazing They took the Wii away, I never got a hold of the replay. It was INCREDIBLE. 150% usmash straight up into a random falling stitchface.... T_T

Tell me about this. Sounds too awesome to just let a story like this go away. =o

 

[deepseadiva]

Between this and your recent post, I'm questioning your credibility. Your fsmash punishes Luc's fsmash because...it comes out quicker? Lol what is this.

No.

Your fsmash would have to come out quicker, and exceed Luc's fsmash to "punish" it. Luc's fsmash is the most powerful at the tip, and that's where Lucarios will be spacing it. Your fsmash lacks the range to punish the startup at this range.

Seriously you should say something that's worth half believing, like Peach's float->dair/fair punishing fsmashes.

I have argued for one claim: Lucario is easy to gimp (and my comment on the fsmash - read below). Maybe now after other Peaches have discussed, and agreed with, the same you'll stop attacking my credibility?

Ok yeah that confused me a lot. I don't know where he's getting it from. I do everything in my power to avoid the fsmashes- Peach has nothing that beats it. I'll just float over it and try to dair Lucario without getting utilted, or run back and spam turnips.

Ah yes... the fmash. Doesn't the golf club have enough range for it though (even AT the tip)? Admittedly it's random chance of missing with a racket or pan, and I agree that we should avoid it like hell, but in the early percents risks make the crowd cheer.

Oh, I indeed missed it. Certainly untrue, Olimar's WAY easier to gimp.

I have explained to Timbers it was a hyperbole. I know Lucario is not as easy to edgehog as Olimar. >_>

 

[Praxis]

I refuse to participate in discussion, since I hate these topics and all you guys do is argue.

Just throwing this out there.

Peach's uair beats our dair, inexplicably. Trying to dair a Peach from high above will get you KO'd.
Peach's Fair is unpunishable on the ground when the Peach player knows what they're doing and spaces it correctly. If they're sloppy about it at all, you can shieldgrab her.
Peach's Dair often trades hits with our Uair. Our uair will only go through if we space it to perfection or do the sneaky fast fall thing we found that one time.
Peach's Nair and Bair are fantastic out of shield options for her punishment game and both have good knockback

Our best aerial tools against Peach is our Bair and Nair, and Dair when not telegraphed.
A Peach will float in such a way to where she'll be above any size of Sphere you can launch and will hover until she decides to attack. Only way i've found to combat this is an angled upward ftilt.
The best way to get an Aura Sphere to connect is to anticipate when the Peach will go into a float and jump up with her and launch your sphere there. If that's the only time you jump up the same time she does, then it'll be crazy unexpected and usually net your KO if you calculated it correctly.

Anyone who says vegetables are laughable doesn't know what they're talking about. They're annoying to have to dodge and if you catch one and don't get rid of it right away, it hinders your attack options.
Don't forget Mr. Saturns. =\ And Beam swords. Both suck when thrown at you.

+1

All good points and good advice. Fight Peach inside the stage, avoid fighting near the edges, don't approach from above.

Tell me about this. Sounds too awesome to just let a story like this go away. =o

Haha, it was at the Penny Arcade Expo (PAX) tournament...I glide tossed a stitchface up, and missed the Zelda player (who had 150%). I didn't actually realize it was a stitchface, and just thought it was a regular turnip.

Forgetting about this turnip that is now way up in the air, I do a sliding usmash as the Zelda player falls. It sweetspots. Peach's usmash will kill Zelda at ~85% sweetspotted- at 150% she just rockets straight up at crazy speeds.

Meanwhile, my forgotten stitchface turnip is in the air near the top of the screen at the peak of the throw. Zelda slams into it at mach 5, making a 90-degree turn (stitchface does 30% damage with crazy high knockback) and flying off the left side of the screen to her death.

xD

Sadly, they packed up the Wii and left with it while I was playing my Finals matches and I never got a hold of the replay.

Ah yes... the fmash. Doesn't the golf club have enough range for it though (even AT the tip)? Admittedly it's random chance of missing with a racket or pan, and I agree that we should avoid it like hell, but in the early percents risks make the crowd cheer.

Golf club MAYBE- if the Lucario is spacing to tip you with the fsmash I'm not sure if it would hit. But that's a 1/3 chance, and you WON'T be spacing for the golf club if you happen to get it.

It's safe to say that unless you get really lucky, Lucario's fsmash will consistently beat Peach's.

Almost forgot stages! I'm thinking the usual suspects here. Frigate Orpheon (We've established that clingable walls are a nice thing to have against Peach) and Luigi's Mansion? I've got no idea what to ban against her, though. Maybe you nice Peach mains could help field that one.

Just worth noting- Jungle Japes is widely considered to be Peach's best stage. The water restores her float, so as long as she doesn't die in the splash-stun she can ALWAYS make it back to the stage and even stall in the water indefinitely if the Klaptrap doesn't get her.

The only downside to the stage is that it negates her usmash as a kill move (but boosts Fair). And we've already established that Peach's Usmash's usefulness is lost against Lucario because of his dair, so that makes it perfect for her.

Japes is also supposed to be a good Lucario stage, is it not? I just want to warn you- don't pick it against Peach (unless it's one of the few Peaches that don't like the stage), it'll do Peach just as much good if not more.

I never play on Luigi's Mansion, because it's banned in WA, but I've been told that it's an amazing Peach stage.

Orpheon's your best bet. Hanenbow might be good? How does Lucario do there? Me and my rival hate the stage so we just never play there.