~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Timbers]

Erich covered most of it.

To put nades vs auraspheres into perspective, nades are the dominant long range tool.

If you're going to try to play defense/camp with aurasphere, you best do it at midrange where you can take advantage of his vulnerability when he attempts to throw the nades at you.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

i can back up What tenki is saying here and i even did it in a match vs Stauff, dont ya remember stauff??

Not especially, but I don't really have a head for remembering friendlies I did a month ago. Sorry. >>

I'll take your word for it anyway.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People's this is SNAKE, not Sonic. Wait until we're done with Snake to discuss him please.

Oh yea, and I finally got around to editing the rest of my big long post with my opinions on the Snake match-up. Since Smashboards is being gay and won't let me wrap wiki tags around it, the post is on the link below. Tell me if I made any mistakes or such, eh? Anyways, here it is:

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5402722&postcount=1367

See you all later. If you need info from me Jeepy, I edited it for ya! And don't worry, I'm a senior this year too, so I've got all that stuff to worry about as well. *Sigh* It's quite a bit of work if you're going out of state, eh?

You got most of my opinion in there, the only thing that I'm not entirely in agreement with is the ratio of the match up.

It seems more like a 50-50/45-55.

I don't thinks Lucario is at as much of a disadvantage as a 40-60.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

I don't think rolling behind Snake is EVER a good idea. >>

Its not that bad. If you roll after they poke your shield they will probably have a harder time punishing you during the vulnerable frame(s). I mean, I think Ftilt has at least some after lag.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Mmmm...yea, the two things I'm not too good at is the actual ratio and stages, hehe. Oh yea, there's something I forgot! It's all good though, OWA covered that pretty well somewhere way back when.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Out of curiosity shouldn't we start discussion of Peach, or are waiting for the final say of something?

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Yessir, I just finished updating Snake. Also editted some Pikachew stuff.

We'll start with Peach tomorrow.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

It may be to late now but did we cover snakes edge guarding game?
...

rawr

I still think its hard as hell to recover with lucs floatiness and all >_>

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Er-hem.

Peach.

 

[Kitamerby]

Her Utilt and Usmash beats our dair, methinks. Don't stay above a grounded Peach.

 

[Timbers]

dj post on the export thread. We didn't cover that, and is definitely something that should be talked about.

Regarding peach. Don't land on her, like ever.

All of her aerials are very dangerous, all autocancelling into easy jabs/jab cancelled grabs. You gotta move around a lot in this match. Don't let her pressure your shield.

Kind of general stuff. I don't have a ton of knowledge on Peach, but Luc does well in keeping her away with his own aerials and projectile.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Her Utilt and Usmash beats our dair, methinks. Don't stay above a grounded Peach.

Actually I've seen cases where our dair has beaten her Usmash, it might be her not getting the attack of, but I'm not entirely sure on that. Kita is right that Utilt will beat our dair.

As a Peach player I'll give what info I can.

Here's my take on her projectiles.

Her normal turnips will cancel our aura spheres until 45%, the her turnips will ping off only for the sphere to keep going. However winking turnip will cancel higher than 45% and stichy face will cancel any percentage aurasphere. (If she has a stichy face, you should stay the hell away anyways.)

A beam sword will cancel auraspheres until 140%

Mr. Saturn has crap priority against auraspheres, 20%+ and we can blast it away.

If she pulls a bob-omb balst her with Aura spheres until it explodes in her face or she chucks it.

Her air power is another problem for us.

Her air game along with her float cancel tricks make her a tough opponent. She can do a quick neutral air right in your face on the ground or pull out a Fair on the ground for an easy kill. She can even cancel her float to go right into a fast jab or Fsmash. Her air game is as good as ours.

The main moves I'd really watch out for are her Fsmash, Fair, Usmash, and Uair. Those are her main killers.

Careful of grab near the ledge, her Fthrow can kill moderately early if your too close to the ledge at a high percentage.

Well, that's my take on the match-up.

 

[Samuelson]

Her Fair is probably her main KO move. If you see her floating then try and throw an AS at her, works for me. (waits for Timbers to correct me about something i said...)

"Her fair has more priority then the Supreme Court" - Dguy

 

[Timbers]

Pretty sure tourneys require items to be off.

Like, off. Not set to "none"...off >.>

That prevents saturns, beamswords, and bobombs from appearing.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Pretty sure tourneys require items to be off.

Like, off. Not set to "none"...off >.>

That prevents saturns, beamswords, and bobombs from appearing.

It does not.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Nope. Unlike Dedede, Peach can still pull out items even with them off.

I've lost a tournament match to a bob-omb before...

 

[Timbers]

It does not.

srsly?

I've never seen a saturn, beamsword, or bobomb pulled in tournament play ever.

lol but then like i said i haven't played many peaches.

since I know i'll scrub it up even more if I continue with posting in here, I'll just relay Peach's entry to this matchup:

-Lucario- 50-50

Discussion: Posts 477-519

What to Watch out For:
-Aura sphere grows bigger as percentage increases. It can get HUGE.
-High priority attacks
-Low cooldown time attacks, especially forward smash is hard to punish after its already come out
-Matchup gets significantly tougher if the Lucario decides to play really campy
-His down-air has huge priority and only your up tilt can beat it. Has to be timed right though.

Matchup Mentality:
-Try to hit him before his attacks come out, they come out slow, just they cool down real quick so punishing after is tougher
-Float can be quite useful if you can predict his ground attacks and jump, float, then punish
-It would be wise to save f-air to kill him slightly after he reaches 110% so he doesn't last to 200% at his strongest.
-Upsmash out of shield can punish him if he doesn't space some attacks
-Lucario's will roll a LOT. Watch for it.

Did you know?
-Lucario gets a slight boost from being multiple stocks behind as well? It's only slight but it's there.
-Lucario gains strength and range after he reaches 100%
-Lucario's UP b can't hit you, Edgehog him if he's out of range.
-His roll is a monster

The trick to beating Lucario, however, is killing him early. At low %, Lucario has no killing power, and at high %, he becomes far more powerful. Kill him early on the first stock, and you will probably win the set since you can beat the crap out of him on the next stock before he gets to killing strength.

Don't go for too many close range attacks like grabs, because Lucario's jabs are one of his best combo starters. However, Peach's jab-to-grab trick works pretty well against him

I agree with all of this, but Lucario's slightly-harder-to-aerial-combo nature, spammable projectiles (campy Lucario's give Peach a lot of trouble even if they're just tossing weak light aura balls), and most importantly, AURA are enough that I would give him a slight advantage. The reason I list the aura is because Peach has a hard time killing- thus, Lucario gets to be more powerful than he is against other opponents that kill him at lower %.

Also, I don't think Toad is as effective as it is against ROB, because he's got some REALLY quick aerials, quick rolls, and his jab combos into almost anything (ftilt, utilt, dtilt, forward-B and grabs).

I would put the matchup at 45-55 in Lucario's favor, if the Lucario knows the matchup really well and knows how to camp Peach. It's a slight advantage to Lucario, not huge.

EDIT: Also worth noting that thanks to Lucario's dair, Peach almost NEVER lands a usmash. Utilt works, but it doesn't kill until high %. This lets Lucario live EVEN LONGER than normal. And as he lives he gets stronger and gets crazy powerful kill moves.

- Fsmash. The BEST way to avoid this is floating so that your FEET are level with Lucario's HEAD while he's standing. This still allows you to do aerials in an agressive fashion without having to worry about it. In fact, fsmash, bair, and auraspheres are really the only ways he's going to consistently kill you, so LEARN THE HITBOX. It is invisible in some parts (the tip and above it slightly) and he WILL kill you with it fairly easily.

-Aurasphere. It gets BIG when he gets at high %s. You can shield it, toad it, dair it if its slighty under you (it will allow you to go through it kinda, I don't suggest this), ftilt small ones, or like I do, just take the time to either doublejump over it and get ready to aerial (fair is great here) or float. If he fires it high, just land and react. The only time aurasphere should REALLY give you problems is when you are recovering. This is one of two matches I can think of off of the top of my head that I really stress recovering LOW (marth being the other). Get below the edge and float under it. Low enough that he can't just dair you before you even up + B. then umbrella to sweetspot the edge and you'll be fine.

-Dair. Lucarios generally LOVE to dair the shield. Dair hits twice and they will dair multiple times if you sit in your shield. Just jump out and nair between them. Works every time. If they try to come down with dair, be patient and utilt them out of it. Try to scare them into airdodging before you try utilting (or wait until they are close enough to dair). Don't chase them into the air under them except as a mix up. Almost always I wait on the ground after they get hit into the air, but very rarely I QUICKLY double jump into an uair to keep them on their toes. Do this SPARINGLY and it will work.

Oh, and you can DI out of the second hit into the air. Just smash DI down and away. Works maybe 60% of the time for me.

 

[culexus・wau]

I'm not too sure about this one :X The only peaches I faced were in doubles. online. yeah.

but someone get the Peaches here. I believe we helped then on the Peach-Lucario match-up
so wouldn't it be common curtesy for them to help us?

One to be aware of though is Jungle Japes. I think I heard they have something that lets them float
on the Water indefinitely :X IDK if i can shift the match superbly in their favor in JJs but it's something to be
aware of at the least. they can do it anywhere with water but it'll probably but most useful here.

 

[deepseadiva]

*appears from swirl of blossoms*

Hai Lucario boards!

Actually I've seen cases where our dair has beaten her Usmash, it might be her not getting the attack of, but I'm not entirely sure on that. Kita is right that Utilt will beat our dair.

Yeah, our utilt will win over your dair all the time. A trick I've had done to me a few times though would be to perform it early - Peach's utilt misses - and you can dair again during the cool down. Otherwise I would avoid attacking from above, the usmash is Peach's only KO move under 100% - Peaches will be on the look out to use it any chance they get.

Personally though, I see this matchup to be in Peach's favor - the big thing to capitalize on in a Peach vs. Lucario fight is gimps. With turnips, the float, and Lucario's not-threatning-in-the-least recovery, Peach reduces Lucario to Olimar level.

Just ban Luigi's Mansion, some place without clingable-sides and a close ceiling and viola.

Now Llamacario, that thing is terrifying.

 

[manhunter098]

I dont think that Turnips are that effective against Lucarios recovery. And of course I must emphasize the necessity of forcing Lucario to recover low if you want any chance at all to gimp him. I will say though that Peach's aerial game otherwise is rather threatening to Lucario's recovery, but once again, you must force him to recover low. I am pretty sure that the Peach Bomber suits this need, but even then it probably wont be good enough.

However in this match, I dont expect to see too much gimping from either side. Both will basically end up fighting for the final blow and given Peach's difficult KOing without up smash, and Lucario's need for high damage to KO effectively, I expect percents to rise pretty high.


Not really too sure about the rest of the matchup yet.

 

[Timbers]

Peach reduces Lucario to Olimar level.

Olimar has high priority projectiles/aerials to protect himself too?

Fascinating.

I dont think that Turnips are that effective against Lucarios recovery. And of course I must emphasize the necessity of forcing Lucario to recover low if you want any chance at all to gimp him. I will say though that Peach's aerial game otherwise is rather threatening to Lucario's recovery, but once again, you must force him to recover low. I am pretty sure that the Peach Bomber suits this need, but even then it probably wont be good enough.

However in this match, I dont expect to see too much gimping from either side. Both will basically end up fighting for the final blow and given Peach's difficult KOing without up smash, and Lucario's need for high damage to KO effectively, I expect percents to rise pretty high.

If you can't WoP or semispike a Lucario, he's not getting gimped.

Peach can do neither. Just don't waste your second jump like a fool and you'll be fine.

What is threatening is Peach's ledgehop to fair, which will work on Lucario if she forces a recovery onto the stage.

 

[manhunter098]

If you can't WoP or semispike a Lucario, he's not getting gimped.

Peach can do neither. Just don't waste your second jump like a fool and you'll be fine.

What is threatening is Peach's ledgehop to fair, which will work on Lucario if she forces a recovery onto the stage.

I do think that if Peach can send you flying at a low enough trajectory she can gimp you, not to say she will be successful more than once in a number of tries. Her b-air would work well for this. Like I said, I dont really see either character getting gimped much in this matchup.

 

[deepseadiva]

I dont think that Turnips are that effective against Lucarios recovery. And of course I must emphasize the necessity of forcing Lucario to recover low if you want any chance at all to gimp him. I will say though that Peach's aerial game otherwise is rather threatening to Lucario's recovery, but once again, you must force him to recover low. I am pretty sure that the Peach Bomber suits this need, but even then it probably wont be good enough.

Turnips are ridiculously effective, but yes, only from below - that's usually the only way gimps work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9eTm5E-PrQ (00:50) (Not proof, but a fun example how Lucario's upb isn't good)

Barrage with turnips, aerial between some spheres, it shouldn't be that hard.

However in this match, I dont expect to see too much gimping from either side. Both will basically end up fighting for the final blow and given Peach's difficult KOing without up smash, and Lucario's need for high damage to KO effectively, I expect percents to rise pretty high.

Lucario dies to fair very very easily. The trouble is in landing it which can get very very hard.
Usmash is only if Peach gets lucky, or wants some risks.

Olimar has high priority projectiles/aerials to protect himself too?

Fascinating.

The projectile is slow and causes Lucario to fall, as do performing aerials, a place he heavily wants to avoid.

If you can't WoP or semispike a Lucario, he's not getting gimped.

Peach can do neither. Just don't waste your second jump like a fool and you'll be fine.

What is threatening is Peach's ledgehop to fair, which will work on Lucario if she forces a recovery onto the stage.

Turnip the second jump, the Extreme Speed is forced - Peach hogs.
No need for your fancy shmancy spikes or Wall o Pains.

Edit: Airdodges exist.

 

[Browny]

once again, it seems people completely discount the fact that anyone can just airdodge any attacks while they recover :/

 

[Timbers]

Turnips are ridiculously effective, but yes, only from below - that's usually the only way gimps work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9eTm5E-PrQ (00:50) (Not proof, but a fun example how Lucario's upb isn't good)

Please keep in mind the fact that the only reason the lucario was forced to uB was because of how poorly DI'd that fair was. Fair should never send someone that low, but he was trying to dtilt (or crouch? whatever) and didn't react in time for reasonable DI.

Also, even after being hit by 4 consecutive turnips, he still managed to recover, so I don't understand this example. Luc takes 20% damage so that means his uB isn't good? Snake's must be terrible then, going by this logic.

I also know that pulling a stitch face would have ***** the Lucario, but know that it wasn't Peach's skill that put Lucario in that position, it was Lucario's mistake. Crappy DI lead to consequences.

Turnip the second jump, the Extreme Speed is forced - Peach hogs.
No need for your fancy shmancy spikes or Wall o Pains.

Wow so like, we must be able to aurasphere Peach everytime she floats back, and that means we gimp her as easy as olimar.

omg breakthrough guys.

 

[deepseadiva]

Luc takes 20% damage so that means his uB isn't good? Snake's must be terrible then, going by this logic.

>_>
<_<
... yes?

I would consider it VERY bad. 20% damage is a lot - especially when it put Lucario into the KO power of the nair that followed it.

And, fyi, I would also consider Snake's upb terrible in terms of efficiency. Sure it has distance, but it leaves him WIDE open - Peaches LOVE Snake when he's recovering. Free fair, sideb, or just turnip.

Peach's skill that put Lucario in that position, it was Lucario's mistake. Crappy DI lead to consequences.

Yes yes, the Lucario was at fault for getting where he was - but the point is he was horizontally launched, he was forced to recover, Peach can stop it very easily.

Wow so like, we must be able to aurasphere Peach everytime she floats back, and that means we gimp her as easy as olimar.

omg breakthrough guys.

Olimar dies via edgehog. Lucario dies via turnip + edgehog. Is this hard to admit?

 

[Timbers]

Olimar has poor aerial mobility and can't recover from such a huge radius, even when being edgehogged. Luc is perfectly fine landing onstage, or clinging the wall if it's available.

Again, we can say that ROB's recovery is bad because of impossible airdodge out of his uB. Anything that outranges ROB's uair or fair is going to do some serious hurt to him when recovering.

If the Lucario wasn't holding DOWN on the **** joystick he would have never entered this position anyways, taking 0%. Still a terrible example. Find a better one.

And again, that was player error, not character error.


Your Snake example was pretty hilarious too, considering you make it sound like Snake recovers below the stage constantly with uB lol. Snake would have to massively screw up to get peach bombed or faired out of his cypher, especially considering how bad Peach's midair jump is.

EDIT: And don't take this as a "Lucario can't be gimped ever!" stance. Gimps happen. They happen to almost every character. I just don't see how you consider Lucario to be as helpless as Olimar when he's offstage, lol.

 

[deepseadiva]

Olimar has poor aerial mobility and can't recover from such a huge radius, even when being edgehogged. Luc is perfectly fine landing onstage, or clinging the wall if it's available.

I admit, I may be pushing the Olimar = Lucario stance a bit far. Hyperbole never serves me well these days...

Lucario has options - aurasphere, I'll tentatively say: "good" jumps, the cling, and finally the upb.

What my point is that Peach has better edgegaurding options that beat Lucario's recovery.

Auraspheres can be matched at the same speed, and just a single turnip penetrating causes Lucario to lose his jump. Not to mention the spheres cause him to fall.

The cling is a not an issue on any Peach who knows how to counterpick - though with the cling, I'd say upbing would be a much safer option.

And when Lucario is having to resort to returning to the side of the stage, with only Extreme Speed left, I have never felt more safer edgehogging in my life. Olimar can at least stagespike if he knows how to organize correctly. Lucario can only get into his concentrating Extreme Speed animation - in my mind he's praying "Please don't hog please don't hog." *swoosh*

If the Lucario wasn't holding DOWN on the **** joystick he would have never entered this position anyways, taking 0%. Still a terrible example. Find a better one.

And again, that was player error, not character error.

HOW Lucario got where he was is irrelevant - players will be in that position time and time again. It's not impossible to have Lucario off to the side of the stage. Of note would be Peach's often used fmash, and even the sideb.

I'm watching the what happened AFTER the fair.

Your Snake example was pretty hilarious too, considering you make it sound like Snake recovers below the stage constantly with uB lol. Snake would have to massively screw up to get peach bombed or faired out of his cypher, especially considering how bad Peach's midair jump is.

If Snake is in the air, Peach is winning. Forcing a cypher is not too hard and capitalizing on one is even easier. Snake's upb is not good for recovering - at least against Peach anyway.

R.O.B.'s upb is amazing - his doesn't him leave open, he has several options both from afar and from close up. They're not comparable in the least.

 

[Browny]

lucario will be caught that far below the stage as often as peach will be facing backwards and her upb doesnt ledgesnap and falls to her doom.

 

[manhunter098]

lucario will be caught that far below the stage as often as peach will be facing backwards and her upb doesnt ledgesnap and falls to her doom.

Exactly...I hope the discussion will move past that point that hardly has negligible impact on the matchup overall.

This matchup is going to be heavily focused on trying to get finishing blows with more powerful attacks and getting the opponent to killing range. Gimps will not be a heavy focus for either character in this matchup.

That said what we need to focus on mostly is which character controls the stage. Number and quality of each characters approach options, and which character is going to be better at forcing their opponent to approach. As this is going to be critical to the damage each character racks up during the match. Maintaining control is also important, so we need to look at the ability for each character to maintain control after landing a hit. Then we need to focus on KO options, and since gimping isnt really going to be the main method of killing we need to look at which character has the most effective and safest KO options. Taking into account any setups for those KO moves as well.

Both characters have projectiles. Peach has a somewhat random projectile though and Lucario's requires that it be charged. Lucario has greater range and overall can be a reliable kill move. Peach can pull out the occasional deadly Turnip, or bob-bomb, but its not exactly a killing method to be relied upon. Peach can use her projectile to disturb Lucario while he is trying to charge and Lucario can make it somewhat more difficult for Peach to always find time to pull out her Turnips. But overall I dont think that either character really posses the power to mess with the others projectile game too much. Something that is important to note though is that Lucario can take advantage of Peach's projectile and use it against her, not to mention avoiding it. If I recall Peach has a good glide toss though, so it wont be too easy for Lucario to take advantage of Peaches Turnips for his own use.

Both characters have relatively similar air games. Both characters can stop their downward or upward momentum giving them a lot more aerial options. Peach lacks a good midair jump, which somewhat limits her options, since she cant really use her second jump to avoid attacks, but she does have good aerial maneuverability and thus I would say that her aerial game is pretty much on par with Lucario's, a little more focused on power, but a bit less range too.

Ill add more later, probably. But I am thinking that its a very even matchup.

 

[hotgarbage]

A little tidbit: peach's fair is actually her slowest A move, so you CAN rush her with a quick sh fair if she's floating. Though if you screw up she'll float backwards and fair you in the teeth, so be careful.

Also, lucario's roll is insane (obviously) and peach is way too slow to punish it, so try and abuse it against her.

I agree that this matchup is somewhat even; if one has an advantage it's not huge either way. Though peach's inability to kill certainly isn't a good thing here.....

All I can say is that this matchup takes FREAKING AGES (in my experience) and requires lots of patience from both sides.

 

[Gea]

Yeah uhh... the thing about turnips against Lucario's recovering is that it forces him into a bad position. If you airdodge, you're still falling low and the lower you go, the easier it is to strip you of options so that you always get hit.

Toss one straight up, toss one out. If you're recovering from the top corner (as you should be) you have a "cone" of safety that you will probably be guided into where Peach can sit with her aerial game. If you airoddge and go low, she can sit on the edge (on most stages where you can't wallcling) and you're forced to up + B onto the stage.

I don't really understand how you can argue against this. You might not get gimped per se, but her edgeguarding against you is definitely effective to some ends. Lucario has nothing of the sort, but excels at not letting her up from the edge.

Also Japes isn't a bad stage for Lucario. You WANT somewhere with high sides/ ceiling so she can't kill... you live longer, you kill her.

My thoughts overall of the matchup rest in the thread on the Peach boards. Its basically even (stage dependant slightly) but if you don't know what you're doing, expect to get trapped in your shield and combo'd.

 

[manhunter098]

Yeah uhh... the thing about turnips against Lucario's recovering is that it forces him into a bad position. If you airdodge, you're still falling low and the lower you go, the easier it is to strip you of options so that you always get hit.

Toss one straight up, toss one out. If you're recovering from the top corner (as you should be) you have a "cone" of safety that you will probably be guided into where Peach can sit with her aerial game. If you airoddge and go low, she can sit on the edge (on most stages where you can't wallcling) and you're forced to up + B onto the stage.

I don't really understand how you can argue against this. You might not get gimped per se, but her edgeguarding against you is definitely effective to some ends. Lucario has nothing of the sort, but excels at not letting her up from the edge.

Also Japes isn't a bad stage for Lucario. You WANT somewhere with high sides/ ceiling so she can't kill... you live longer, you kill her.

My thoughts overall of the matchup rest in the thread on the Peach boards. Its basically even (stage dependant slightly) but if you don't know what you're doing, expect to get trapped in your shield and combo'd.

But what you arent taking into account is Peach's poor jump hieght and Lucario's slow fall speed and good horizontal movement in the air. She isnt going to be in the position to use her Turnips to limit Lucario's options in most cases of knocking him off the stage. Furthermore Lucario also has a good second jump making it even harder to use your Turnips effectively and his d-air stall helps him position his landing far more effectively than most characters.

 

[Gea]

Your slow falling speed makes turnip-trapping you into coming down a certain way easier, not harder. That's why we throw turnips upwards, silly. For every dair stall you do, it kills your momentum and we can just pull another and throw it upwards.

This isn't some sort of infallable strategy but it is great pressure against your recovery.

Just like how you can aura-sphere some people's recoveries to force them to say, not illusion towards the edge? It doesn't auto-gimp, it just helps move people in the direction you want them.

 

[manhunter098]

Your slow falling speed makes turnip-trapping you into coming down a certain way easier, not harder. That's why we throw turnips upwards, silly. For every dair stall you do, it kills your momentum and we can just pull another and throw it upwards.

This isn't some sort of infallable strategy but it is great pressure against your recovery.

Just like how you can aura-sphere some people's recoveries to force them to say, not illusion towards the edge? It doesn't auto-gimp, it just helps move people in the direction you want them.

No, it doesnt. Unless you mean to imply that Peach can throw throw Turnips at a vertical angle, which isnt the case.

To spell it out simply, if you knock Lucario off the stage, his second jump is more than enough to ensure in most cases that you wont be interrupting his return with mere Turnips. Furthermore the utility of Aura Sphere as an edge guarding tool, is assisted by Lucario's jumps which give him adequate height in order to make sure he can actually land them, they also travel at horizontal angle rather than an arc, giving them a longer range and more utility above stage level, whereas Peach's Turnips have far greater utility at or just below stage level.

 

[Gea]

Wow. You obviously have no grasp of what I'm saying here. Also if you think you never have to Up + B with Lucario or someone can't bait out your doublejump, you've never played anyone worth a crap.

Also you totally ignore the comparison drawn and strawman.

This is to pressure you into recovering a certain way and it works.

 

[manhunter098]

Wow. You obviously have no grasp of what I'm saying here. Also if you think you never have to Up + B with Lucario or someone can't bait out your doublejump, you've never played anyone worth a crap.

Also you totally ignore the comparison drawn and strawman.

This is to pressure you into recovering a certain way and it works.

What you mention is a situational way to hinder Lucario's recovery. Unless you focus on using only moves with low vertical and high horizontal knockback to get Lucario off stage then you are more than likely going to end up being unable to do anything to Lucario as he floats back towards the stage. And of course if you focus on that you will miss opportunities for other things, so overall you are going to try to knock Lucario off the stage like any other character and that doesnt really put him in any position to get gimped. It might happen from time to time, but I dont see the gimp as being the crux of this matchup for either character.

 

[Timbers]

Lucario has options - aurasphere, I'll tentatively say: "good" jumps, the cling, and finally the upb.

Luc's midair is great.

What my point is that Peach has better edgegaurding options that beat Lucario's recovery.

Peach has better options edgeguarding Lucario than Lucario does Peach. That no where near means that Peach is ungimpable and Lucario is as helpless as olimar (which you've now taken back)

Aurasphere forces an airdodge from Peach when she's recovering, halting her float and putting her into her terrible airdodge. Obviously not foolproof, but neither are turnips.

Auraspheres can be matched at the same speed, and just a single turnip penetrating causes Lucario to lose his jump. Not to mention the spheres cause him to fall.

Lucarios don't spam auraspheres when they're coming back lol, what Lucarios have you been playing. It's mainly to get someone off of the ledge or to stop a pursuit.

The cling is a not an issue on any Peach who knows how to counterpick - though with the cling, I'd say upbing would be a much safer option.

Luc also has his counterpicks, and the 2 neutrals that have walls as well.

And when Lucario is having to resort to returning to the side of the stage, with only Extreme Speed left, I have never felt more safer edgehogging in my life. Olimar can at least stagespike if he knows how to organize correctly. Lucario can only get into his concentrating Extreme Speed animation - in my mind he's praying "Please don't hog please don't hog." *swoosh*

You gotta knock him out of his midair first. His fair does a good job at protecting him, too. His midair has great height on it, which I come back to saying that semispikes or WoPs are really the only thing that can gimp him. Turnips lack the horizontal knockback to gimp his midair AND uB.

HOW Lucario got where he was is irrelevant - players will be in that position time and time again. It's not impossible to have Lucario off to the side of the stage. Of note would be Peach's often used fmash, and even the sideb.

How is it irrelevant? Peach made the Lucario use his midair and didn't even have to knock Lucario out of the midair. It was like a freebie because Luc screwed up. There's very few moves in this game that can force Lucario to use his midair (under 100%) so early in the recovery process.

I'll give you Peach fsmash (despite being 10x easier to punish than her fair), but your example is still very flawed.

If Snake is in the air, Peach is winning. Forcing a cypher is not too hard and capitalizing on one is even easier. Snake's upb is not good for recovering - at least against Peach anyway.

R.O.B.'s upb is amazing - his doesn't him leave open, he has several options both from afar and from close up. They're not comparable in the least.

Snake should cypher as soon as he's knocked out. Unless you've somehow got a pseudo-WoP going with your float, there's no way Peach is quick enough to chase his cypher.

I've played ROB. GaW, MK, Marth, Lucario, Kirby all terrorize his recovery. He won't be gimped (unless Meta gets a shuttleloop on his uB for stagespike) but he'll take damage. Like I said, anything that outranges ROB does their job at harassing his uB.

Your slow falling speed makes turnip-trapping you into coming down a certain way easier, not harder. That's why we throw turnips upwards, silly. For every dair stall you do, it kills your momentum and we can just pull another and throw it upwards.

This isn't some sort of infallable strategy but it is great pressure against your recovery.

Just like how you can aura-sphere some people's recoveries to force them to say, not illusion towards the edge? It doesn't auto-gimp, it just helps move people in the direction you want them.

Everything Gea said is right. Er well, the 1 dair=1 turnip is debatable (lol) but that's kind of irrelevant. Luc dair stalling isn't that great anyways.

Turnips pressure Luc's recovery. They won't gimp (or shouldn't gimp) but they can force you into poor decisions and options. Like I said, if Peach does get you to ES onto the stage, she can nip you with a fair. Good 15% right there.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Everything Gea said is right. Er well, the 1 dair=1 turnip is debatable (lol) but that's kind of irrelevant. Luc dair stalling isn't that great anyways.

Turnips pressure Luc's recovery. They won't gimp (or shouldn't gimp) but they can force you into poor decisions and options. Like I said, if Peach does get you to ES onto the stage, she can nip you with a fair. Good 15% right there.

This is true.

I don't throw turnips up in the air for kicks and giggles, I do it to make a wall of projectiles against slow fallers. Then those players will either have the maneuver to avoid a turnip or get hit.

Either way I've placed you in a bad position. It's escapable, but still an advantage I'll gladly take.

 

[Gea]

Thanks Timbers.