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~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

manhunter098

Smash Lord
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It's a terrifyingly good Snake stage.
Definitely agree it makes his tilts extremely deadly. But the acid is better for Lucario since you can stall hitting it or stall your fall without having to jump to try to have ti save you, and your aerials are faster so you can pull them off easily on a Snake that might happen to get sent flying. And I feel the stage shuts down his grenade game pretty well, but it gives our Aura Sphere (at least the charged ones) a little trouble too. Still, his tilts are incredibly deadly on this stage so I would definitely say it should be avoided.


Something people should know. Lucarios jab clanks with f-tilt and u-tilt. Its pretty fun to do. Snake can escape force palm chain grabs at around 40% with the help of grenades, dont keep it going, just finish it up after he drops two grenades with some aerials.

Dont try to walk away and f-smash too much, Snakes f-tilt has a ton of range and it comes out fast, if your in the situation to walk away and f-smash chances are you are already in tilt range and simply walking away from him is probably a bad idea.

I would recommend using Smashville against Snake, the moving platform above it makes it much easier to edge guard him with Aura Spheres. The moving platform can be used by snake to move around his C4 so be careful.


And after playing against my friend for about 4 hours yesterday I can say I feel very comfortable saying that Snake has the advantage, but its not too difficult for Lucario to win this one, playing a bit campier might solve this though since I play a little bit closer to the agressive style.
 
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Hmmmm...I'll have yet another long post/review/thing up sometime soon. I gots to go run 8 miles(something like that, never a certain distance, just time! Just in case you all want to know, which you don't;)) for X-C currently, and after I'll be too tired to post anything, hehe. Sometimes within the end of the week I'll get some stuff up.
 

dj_pwn1423

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 10, 2007
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nobody cares about snake T_T

I'm going to a tourney today, i guess i should make a bigger post after that since i hardly contribute to this thread.
 

Trela

Smash Lord
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Snake Moves

I havent been in this thread for about a month =O

Anyways, Snake is my 3rd main, and I play him, A LOT. Here's what I know about Snake's moves:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Snake has many great moves to use at his disposal. Even though he likes using all of his moves, these are the most common of them:

F-Tilt: The most Strongest, long range, and annoying F-Tilt EVER. Uses it when your ever near him, or when he tries to approach you. Does about 20% damage, hits 2 times, and can stop our fully charged AS's (when your at low %'s)! A well-timed DT, Shieldgrab, or just a quick roll behind him will stop it. This can also be very predictable.
Grenade: Snakes most common move. Used Offensively and Defensively on you. It has nice damage and explosion radius, and can be picked up by pulling it out and pressing shield. You will see A LOT of these on the field; it has "Mindgame effects". Watch out for the Grenade Cooking, and whatever you do, do NOT pick up a Grenade and try to throw it back at him (unless he's in the air)! When he does the Shield Grenade Drop, it automatically takes the Grenade in your hand, and drops it below your feet (this is called Grenade Stripping). Spacing and mabye even an AS at long range can stop these annoying things. Also, try grabbing him more often: his Grenade Countering can really hurt you.
C4: The coolest of Snake's moves. With its great damage, knockback, and exploding radius, this little thing really changes the mood of the battle. He uses it for a lot of things:
1. Platforms- Its explosion radius makes it able to hit us under the platform he plants it on. WATCH OUT FOR THIS.
2. Edgeguarding- Jumping high, droping, and detonating it anywhere makes this dangerous. DT it when its above you and when you hear "Now!". Also, watch out when he drops it off the stage and near you when your trying to recover; it hurts.
3. Random locations- With his built in "Mindgame potential", he can plant it anywhere, including on you! Always keep an eye out for the C4 and where he plants it, and if he ever gets one on you, either run to him and stick it on him, or, like I said, DT when you hear "Now!".
Those are just some of the things his C4 can do. The C4 is one of Snakes best moves; WATCH HIS PLANTING! Oh, and he can also use the C4 to recover. It resets his Up-B move, witch could be a problem.
Up-Smash: The only Up-Smash that shoots a projectile. It is used greatly for Edgeguarding, or when your above him. You'll have to time DT very well when your above him, and just use some Airdodges when he Edgeguards with it. Also, aim your Extremespeeds perfectly; his Up-Smash > your recovery game.
Mortar Slide: A sliding Up-Smash. It moves really fast, and is highly spammable. This is VERY predictable; just use a DT, or chunk an AS in his face when he does this, nuff said.
N-Air: his most common Arial move. His 4 times, does about 20% damage, and has awsome knockback. Space yourself from this move, as it can really hurt you, REALLY.
Nikita: One hell of a projectile. He's able to control the thing, which gives it cool mindgames. Its mostly used for Edgeguarding, and screws around with our recovery. It also goes right through our AS's, no matter what size, but messes up the way the rocket goes. He usually follows up with another Nikita or a F-Tilt. Rolling behind it, jumping over it, or mabye even a DT should help with this.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope I helped. Snake looks like a tough fight for Lucario :dizzy:
 

JDGreat

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
82
FINALLY! Something I can contribute too!

Grenades: Annoying lil buggers. Nade Dropping allows for several ranges of attack from the nade and the damage is quite high for a standard B, though pales in comparison to some (I'm looking at you Ganondorf). Anyway, Spot Dodging can avoid the blast, as can rolling...and even dashing in some cases...unless he holds onto it for a while, then, just roll out of it.

DO NOT DT!

Seriously, you'll DT the grenade hit and slide right into the explosion. Done it several times myself.

BAS I think can cancel them mid-flight and FCAS can just destroy them mid air. But you're better off dodging.

UpTilt: THE most broken tilt of the game. For proof, here's a pic from the Official Snake Guide:



Can hit you when you least expect it. Fairly Quick and horribly powerful, it's bad news for us as a floaty character. Use DAir to stall when he does it, then fast fall and lay the smackdown. Again, don't DT, at least not while in the air, I could never get the timing right at all since DT stalls you in the air for a second and by then, the counter point will have been and gone.

FTilt: Not too sure on this. I'd go with Trela on this since my bro hardly uses it anymore.

Nikita: Easily dodged. You can FAir through it with no damage to you and roll, spotdodge or Aura Sphere it to move it out of your way. Be prepared for the arch created by Aura Sphere with the Nikita and watch out if he decides to cancel the missile on top of your blue furry head. Not nice. Still, easy to dodge as hitting Snake will cause him to lose control of the missile.

AAA Combo Annoying and deadly. The kick sends you flying ridiculous distances for an AAA. If you're caught by the first two, try to powershield the kick as that'll mess you up badly.

C4 Again, go with Trela. My bro hardly uses the things except when he can't recover with the Cypher.

Any tips?

Get him into the air. His airgame is pretty lacklustre compared to ours. BAir outranges him and we all know how DAir can mess him up.

Abuse Force Palm. You can FPCG him up to four times before he can break free and then you can simply Fair->Fair->DAir him. Lots of damage in one string. Awesome.

And if he Cyphers close to the edge? Grab him out of the Cypher but don't initate a throw or pummel, just let him drop. He can't recover then and is forced to cause damage to himself by using his C4 to regain his Cypher.
 

dj_pwn1423

Smash Journeyman
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you cant shield grab his ftilt , and using DT against such a fast attack is just asking to get punished.
 

Trela

Smash Lord
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you cant shield grab his ftilt , and using against such a fast attack is just asking to get punished.
What? Yeah, you can Shieldgrab it. It just doesnt work when Snakes doing it at its longest range.

And yes, do not DT the Grenade. I put in my post TO DT it. Lemmie go change that :embarrass
 

manhunter098

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Well just something to know. Most of our aerials can take out snakes mortar as long as you space it right. Ive done it quite easily with f-air (works the best IMO), u-air (if its coming from above), or d-air (much harder to do but it works well enough).
 

Trela

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if you shield his ftilt you will be pushed back pretty far, and luc's grab range isn't the best.
I've tested this. If your up close to him and he does it, the Shieldgrab works. But at longer range, no, because of his Lucario's low grab range.

You have to predict it. If your trying to Shieldgrab it, you gotta grab him FAST.
 

dj_pwn1423

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Theres the problem, it only works if snake ftilts up close. How many times have you been shield grabbed while Fsmashing with luc? Probably not many unless you were fighting DDD or someone like him.

Its true that Snake will use ftilt when you are close aswell, but unless you are the one trying to approach him you wont be in this situation to often. If he is forced to approach you there is no way he is going to purposely set himself up for a shield grab.
 

Alus

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I've tested this. If your up close to him and he does it, the Shieldgrab works. But at longer range, no, because of his Lucario's low grab range.

You have to predict it. If your trying to Shieldgrab it, you gotta grab him FAST.
cant you just SH and Dair?
 

Trela

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Theres the problem, it only works if snake ftilts up close. How many times have you been shield grabbed while Fsmashing with luc? Probably not many unless you were fighting DDD or someone like him.

Its true that Snake will use ftilt when you are close aswell, but unless you are the one trying to approach him you wont be in this situation to often. If he is forced to approach you there is no way he is going to purposely set himself up for a shield grab.
Thats all i'm sayin'!

cant you just SH and Dair?
Wait, you mean out of the shield, or, like, before he F-Tilts? I get confused really fast :confused:

This is the worse thread i have ever seen in my life....you suck
We love you too.
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
Premium
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We love you too.
I love you more.

But on topic, most of the time, the extendo range of the ftilt will get ya,if the snake is smart enough to wait the little bit of time between attacks. He just needs to mix it up.
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
Premium
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EWWWW :urg:

Anyways, just play mindgames on him during his F-Tilts; works all the time (not really, if your stupid like ME).
Ewwww should be YEA:D :D :D :D

You should feel honored.
Snake is generally just weird,


Someone get Azen in here.
 

Trela

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Ewwww should be YEA:D :D :D :D

You should feel honored.
Snake is generally just weird,


Someone get Azen in here.
But I dont want to be :ohwell:
Yes, weird, like, like pudding.

I CAN! Im trying to IM him right now =D

...I'll stop spamming the thread now.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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On Snake, just a little tidbit that could be added on top of instructions, his grab game is good, will set u up for a sucker punch if ur not careful. Also, the Nikita/C4 can be used for coverage if he's being juggled/aer-owned (as in, we are killing them in the air), as they can obstruct, especially if they immediately drop the Nikita while launching it in the air. Doesn't happen often, but it can be used effectively.
 

Browny

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always roll forward when snake dthrows you. any of the other 3 options result in a chaingrab if the snake player has good enough reflexes. i think lucarios backwards roll might go far enough to escape it, not sure :/
 

Alus

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Can a snake with good enough practice infinite everyone?

Grab > pummel > dthrow >grab >pummel >dthrow
 

Browny

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if you roll forwards theres no way snake can run far enough to grab you again. at worst you will take a dash attack, and thats only if he predicts a roll forwards
 

manhunter098

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Snakes d-throw to tech chase is one of the easiest things to avoid as almost any character. You see unlike G&W if a Snake d-throws you dont have to actually move for about a second, giving you so many options on what to do that the Snake needs to be really lucky to punish you.
 

JDGreat

Smash Apprentice
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Snake's throws are hardly used anyway. At least not with the Snake I play and have seen professionally over Youtube.

If they do, then sorry for the uninformed post.

Quick question about the FTilt actually if someone could test it please. (Sorry, my Wii's acting up lately ^_^)

If you spotdodge, will you dodge both the first and second hits or will the axe handle strike hit you when you come oout of the invincability frames?

Also, wouldn't Norfair be an absolute horrible stage for Snake? I heard it was a counterpick so I'm assuming it can be used in tourneys. Anyway, since his ability to camp is always highly rated, wouldn't the lave coming from everywhere at once really mess him up? Along with detonating his mines, C4's, grenades and Nikita's early? Or is this just wishful thinking from playing with the Golden Sun theme in there so many times?
 

Timbers

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Snake throw is amazing, and it will be used. If you shield a jab or close quarters ftilt, prepare to roll as quickly as you can. He can follow up with the grab at a very long distance, and it hurts. Dealing 12%, and additional pummels. Your best bet is to roll away, that's correct. Unfortunately dash attack still hurts like a *****. Yes you can lay there, but be aware that his dtilt will hit you if you're laying on the ground.

One pro to this is you can condition the Snake to play by your rules. Bait him into using dash attacks and simply stand up.

You still want to stay out of his face as much as possible. He's **** city there.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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Snake's throws are hardly used anyway. At least not with the Snake I play and have seen professionally over Youtube.

If they do, then sorry for the uninformed post.
Snake's throws are pretty good. They have a non DIable quality in one of them, so that if he spaces himself right, he can throw u into his explosives. dthrow is also a good tech chase. My friend's snake uses throws quite a bit.
 

manhunter098

Smash Lord
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Snake throw is amazing, and it will be used. If you shield a jab or close quarters ftilt, prepare to roll as quickly as you can. He can follow up with the grab at a very long distance, and it hurts. Dealing 12%, and additional pummels. Your best bet is to roll away, that's correct. Unfortunately dash attack still hurts like a *****. Yes you can lay there, but be aware that his dtilt will hit you if you're laying on the ground.

One pro to this is you can condition the Snake to play by your rules. Bait him into using dash attacks and simply stand up.

You still want to stay out of his face as much as possible. He's **** city there.

Yes he can d-tilt, but all in all d-tilt is slow and for the most part it really does become a game of who guesses correctly, and of course we have the better odds in that situation. Personally one of my favorite tricks to do is to slam down on the control stick as soon as he puts me on the ground, the sound makes him think I am going to roll, and then I simply either stand up straight or go the way he didnt.
 

Nines~Tempest

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Yes he can d-tilt, but all in all d-tilt is slow and for the most part it really does become a game of who guesses correctly, and of course we have the better odds in that situation. Personally one of my favorite tricks to do is to slam down on the control stick as soon as he puts me on the ground, the sound makes him think I am going to roll, and then I simply either stand up straight or go the way he didnt.
Lord I wish that mindgame worked on wifi <_<;

Anywho, this matchup is either 50 50 or 60 40 Snake :/
 

tedward2000

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o m g, its almost thursday.
And still no snake review. But then again this will take a while. But still I need to get going.
-t2
 

Browny

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Ok well i pretty much secondary snake along with lucario so heres some tricks i like to use on people. they are not lucario specific but you better watch out for them.

C4 on platforms. its completely broken. Never pick a stage like smashville or yoshis where one C4 on the platform can render 1/3 of the stage a potential death zone. I always CP FD vs snakes so i dont have to put up with it and it works well enough.

SH dair. Not a very common move at all, but can KO at ridiculous %'s (maybe 60% if you get hit near the edge). if you get caught in it, SDI the opposite direction snake is moving (he has to DI towards you to get all 4 to hit when you are at high %'s)

dthrow. i cannot emphasise enough, always roll away from snake. roll backwards and either get chaingrabbed or fsmashed.... get up / attack and youre going to get grabbed again or ftilted. maybe even SH dair'ed. the very worst you will take from rolling forwards is a dash attack, which isnt even a guaranteed hit from his dthrow, it requires some pretty precise anticipation and timing by snake to actually hit it.

recovering with nikita. once you use cypher to fly way up into the blast zone, snake can pull out a nikita and just cancel it immediately to drop the rocket on your head before you even see him pull out the nikita. Its pretty easy to avoid (just watch the magnifying glass) but it can hit if you are lazy and dont watch what hes doing.

nair edgeguard. If snake predicts an ES to the ledge, he can just SH nair right outside the sweetspot range and just make a wall of death. provided you stall your recovery with dair and threaten him with charging an AS this shouldnt happen, but it can.
 
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