Lucario Brainstorm Thread (Updating Soon.)

[RT]

So, I was thinking of other ways to start the CCC. I was thinking maybe a SHFFUair? The landing lag isn't all that bad, maybe 1-3 frames or so. Would this be a good idea?

I was also thinking of ways to use FSmash's lag for mindgames. For example, yesterday I was playing against a friend IRL. Whenever there was a chance for him to FTilt, I expected it. So, I would either PS or SD. Wrong. The lag of the FSmash was just enough so that the hitbox would come out when my sotdodge ended/shield went down, and I got hit by the brunt of the attack. This happened about 5-6 times ._."

I was also messing around with grounded ES. I noticed that whenever you pressed down, Luc went back. When used right at the edge of a stage, you can instantly edgehog. Works by pressing forward too, granted you are facing away from the stage. This could be really useful for edgehogging quickly.

Wait, wat? Uair has a TON of landing lag, especially when SHFF'd. If you do a normal shorthop uair without fastfalling, there won't be any landing lag.

Fsmash is just good in general. It can prevent some running grabs because Lucario leans back during the startup frames and you can essentially cancel it into itself.

Extreme Speed thing is kind of old, but not too many people are implementing it. I'll have to work on this...

 

[phi1ny3]

Way back in the day, I was like the biggest proponent of finding uses for ES. Now I'm prolly the best person to tell people that aside from its occasional gimmicks, it's been looked at thoroughly and to no avail.
SHFF uair should only be used occasionally when you can juggle people effectively and they've AD a little closer to the ground, otherwise the landing lag is pretty bad.
Some recent playing around has found bair to have some autocancelling frames, mainly near the beginning, which explains why I've seen fsmash go well in conjunction with this move. More testing to follow...
On the fsmash topic, people need to learn to strutterstep, it messes up spacing big time for people who are expecting to be able to PS fsmash into a grab, and they also need to learn which moves are best for the IASA frames it has (fsmash, utilt, jab, ftilt, etc.)

 

[ckm]

phil, are you talking about bair autocancelling after the hitbox is out, or before?

 

[Aurasmash14]

Bair autocacelling? this might explain some stuff....

 

[Alus]

Extreme Speed thing is kind of old, but not too many people are implementing it. I'll have to work on this...

I still prefer the classic way, because if you **** up then it means a stock.

 

[da K.I.D.]

wait, bair has lag?

 

[RT]

Bair has landing lag if you try to SHFF with it.

It autocancels if you initiate the move but land before the hitbox comes out. At least that's been my experience...

 

[phi1ny3]

^This.
Although I got one or two where the hitbox just barely initiated (at least as far as I could tell) and autocancelled. I'm gonna go into slow-mo to check sometime.

 

[RT]

If that's true, then there's probably only a few frames of leniency. I've never gotten an actual hitbox to come out...

 

[da K.I.D.]

i dont think ive ever seen bair with punishable lag...

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, it seems pretty quick compared to fair and uair landing lag.

 

[RT]

Eh, I've been shieldgrabbed out of it plenty of times. Uair has the most, followed by fair and then bair imo.

 

[phi1ny3]

pretty good though for an aerial with good kill power.

 

[ckm]

well i think it only seems decent because it has such long range and a lingering hitbox that make it harder to punish during lag. it is a pretty laggy move to land with imo.

I do sometimes risk it when someone is trying to catch me as im landing sometimes, but ive been shieldgrabbed plenty of times when they are waiting for it.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh, certainly, it doesn't mean you land near them with the lag, I usually do it when I'm retreating or I'm certain it will hit, when I do the autocanceled one (where the hitbox doesn't come out), I usually space for an fsmash, not the bair itself.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you can be shield grabbed with any aerial in the game, if you are being bad about it.

 

[phi1ny3]

Just wanted to bump to say that BROVERSAL!?! when mastered is legit.
Trela/Lee should make a thread about it lol.
Fair as an approach gets much better with it too.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Wait, what's Broversal?

Also, sorry for the inactivity. I am, in fact, alive.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lol BROVERSAL!?! is just the name Trela, Tedward and I have been calling all that B-reversal ASC shenanigans. I've been delving into it tactically, and so far some of it has pulled good results.
Also, at low percents, dtilt if not DI'd away and within the closer 1/2 of its hitbox results in a free grab.

 

[ckm]

this may have been mentioned already, but i am wondering if anyone has tested combos when we have a stock advantage (one or 2 stocks) and are at low percent (possibly even with move decay? although this would be unlikely with a fresh stock).

Logically it seems like we should have less knockback on moves since we are basically gimped from the stock advantage.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Hah no way, I just brought this up on AiB less than 12 hours before this was asked.

this may have been mentioned already, but i am wondering if anyone has tested combos when we have a stock advantage (one or 2 stocks) and are at low percent (possibly even with move decay? although this would be unlikely with a fresh stock).

Logically it seems like we should have less knockback on moves since we are basically gimped from the stock advantage.

CGing Falco, Dedede (if you're lucky), and Snake, anyone? If you get some FAir gimps they'll be somewhat staleish and just asking to string combos easier together at low %s. FAir -> more FAirs, NAir, or Dair.

Otherwise its basically just playing Lucario as you normally would.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

So. Broversal. We need to use it more.
I mean, I've used it as an excellent mindgame.

Also, we need to use AASC->roll moar. It gives great approaching options, and is hard to punish.

 

[hough123]

Ignore this post, it was wrong. It was also the result of a day without much sleep, but lots of work.

 

[Browny]

the damage boost equation has been derived + proven by at least 3 separate people

its your job to search the forums and find it before making a claim like that

 

[hough123]

the damage boost equation has been derived + proven by at least 3 separate people

its your job to search the forums and find it before making a claim like that

I viewed the data which has different caps, boosts, and rates of increase. Any damage boost code can be disproven by testing it against in-game values of all attacks. The boost seems to be, at first, complicated.

I could not find your code, but I can find my own, and Micheal Hey's. These will be tested on Dtilt, and Utilt
Mine: (0.06x+1)n
Dtilt: 7.4 damage. (Real: 9)
Utilt: 7.7 damage. (Real: 8)

Micheal Hey's:
0≦X≦20 P(X)＝P(75)x0.7
20≦X≦75 P(X)＝P(75)x[1＋(X−75)x0.3/55]
75≦X≦170 P(X)＝P(75)x[1＋(X−75)x0.4/95]
170＜X P(X)＝P(75)x1.4

Included is my initial reaction to your post. Now, after looking at Micheal Hey's data, I am a believer again.
I didn't understand it, but now that I look at it, I do understand. I also see that this is almost exactly like the formula that I was making Saturday. To think that I was on the right path, but someone with better skills found it earlier seems good in my mind.

Thanks for slapping some sence into me, DJ. I was tired, and not thinking. It's not like me to give up like that, and I don't know what got into me. In order to cleanse my name, I will attempt to explain Micheal Hey's formula to the public at large. I apologize for my ignorence, and I apologize for my arrogence in thinking that I had the authority to announce this.

 

[EPIC-FAIL]

I have found something out, though I don't know how viable it will be, and I also don't know if anyone has tried it because it uses the up throw. On Fox and Wolf (Not Falco and I haven't tried it on other characters yet, but will later today) from 0% if you grab Fox , you can up throw into jab jab. This next part makes it a little more complicated but only in trying to explain it. The up throw>A>A is guaranteed from 0%. What follows is based on their DI. If DIing you can side B. If there's no DI, you can follow up with another grab, then throw of your choice. (I normally go with down throw and try to follow with Fair>Nair) On Wolf, its a little different, but in a good way. Same start up as Fox. (Grab>up throw>A>A) Regardless of DI it seams, you can grab him again. and do that same thing again (Grab>up throw>A>A) From there, same as Fox. I, myself, I have tested it and have proven it to myself that the information I brought to you is accurate.

I haven't tested it on other characters yet, but will try to later today. Right now, this was tested on a 0%-0% bases. I will calculate how much damage Lucario can have until this doesn't work.

Another reason why I thought it might not be viable was because of the damage output. it seems ok to me. By my standards, any damage done is good damage...lol. I just wondered what you guys thought.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i usually do somehing along the lines of

up throw to multiple up tilts to either a regrab or a fair to nair to regrab. unfortunately i dont look into it enough to have definite numbers and percentages.

 

[phi1ny3]

You have to take into account Wolf's reflector, it breaks out of stuff because of some invincibility frames (Fox has some too, but he only gets one frame of invincibility).

Also, I hear Michael Hey has a beast Ganondorf.

 

[Kitamerby]

You have to take into account Wolf's reflector, it breaks out of stuff because of some invincibility frames (Fox has some too, but he only gets one frame of invincibility).

Also, I hear Michael Hey has a beast Ganondorf.

Then you just shieldgrab it normally. :D

 

[phi1ny3]

So I'm looking into something about the vs. D3 MU, and if I'm correct, D3 will have to be more frame tight to CG us :D

 

[Browny]

...

just get to the point phil. because unless you found something quicker than a 2 frame (i believe) spotdodge or backwards roll, theres nothing we can do about it.

 

[Aurasmash14]

So I'm looking into something about the vs. D3 MU, and if I'm correct, D3 will have to be more frame tight to CG us :D

and D3s arent frame tight? if they can chaingrab snake without fear of grenade, they can chain anyone.

 

[phi1ny3]

I need to test it, D. Disciple led me on to the idea, but I can't be sure of it.
Just know the MU is still gay.

 

[phi1ny3]

Also, Zucco brought up an old but very unknown tech that was discovered, and apparently, Lucario can use fsmash with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZg0f8RTMOg&feature=related
I'm sure dsmash would work too, although having to commit to more dash stop frames isn't too good with a smash like Lucario dsmash.
According to the video, tilts can also be used, but it's really tight to time. I think the fact that it's less of Lucario gets a good slide out of this, but more that fsmash's hitbox is so big combined with this kind of mobility will make this slightly more useful.
Zucco, thanx for catching onto this. Credit goes to him for finding out that this works for Lucario.

 

[RT]

I like how you post the vid, and the first thing you see is "we realize this is pretty useless..." lol...

 

[phi1ny3]

It really isn't imo, this is what squirtle hydroplaning was based off of, and I think giving a mobile option to Lucario's fsmash where an opponent wouldn't expect it (not to mention it isn't very hard to get down the timing), would **** spotdodges and do some good surprise stuff.

 

[tedward2000]

Slide Sutff...

The same could be used with using Aura Sphere, unless lucario doesn't gain the slide effect from the throw animation of the Aura Sphere.
-t2

 

[phi1ny3]

MK fsmash gets a really good boost from this too, for the record.

 

[D. Disciple]

Oh that, I've known that for a very long time, I do it for fun in practice, but never see any real use for it. Yeah MK gets a really good boost from it.

 

[DerpDaBerp]

Ciao

'Warning of possible noobiness'

I've seen from multiple Lucario based threads and posts that the general concensus about DT is pretty negative. I understand the counter-window/total-frames ratio isn't that big but do we really have to limit it to countering blatantly slow start-up moves and predictable recoveries? The way I see it, there's a psychology to fighting that DT can fit itself into, like the same instinct anyone uses for spotdodging. This may just be hot air but it seems like discounting a move from our moveset forfeits a possibility of limiting opponent options--giving them another factor to worry about.

I admit, this isn't really a thing for testing against any kind of computer, but personally, I like this move, and I'd rather not leave it to rot. Can it REALLY not be developed?