LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
In the spirit of what I said earlier, I give you:
The Lucario Brainstorm Thread
In This Here Thread we will discuss strategies don't currently have anything to do with Lucario's current metagame. I would like more than anything to make sure that no ideas get stomped on prematurely, because I really think this is what killed the Lucario boards in the past months. If you have a cooky idea, SHARE IT! You never know what good can come out of it. We are looking for ways to expand Lucarios metagame. If you have any ideas that you haven't shared because you didn't think they'd be important or useful, this is the place for them. We're gonna take poop and make gold! Also Note: This thread does not serve the same purpose as the metagame discussion thread, because in here we discuss new ideas instead of already established ones.
Important Note: There will be no bashing/skepticism aimed at the ideas or posters in this thread, unless of course is obviously obvious trolling. Every idea will be considered to its fullest extent.
Here's how we're gonna start out.
-I will categorize all potential ideas, strategies, mindgames, etc. into a list of to-do's. Research WILL be done on every idea that even makes an iota of sense, and the jobs will all be put into a "research list". Any board member can take it upon himself to do research into any area. At the end of the day, we'll compile our findings (any things like tables, charts, lists, or other SCIENTIFIC! things are chiefly what we're looking for) to our "conclusions list".
I can't do this alone! I need your help. If we work on it, we can potentially employ new strategies and discover abilities we didn't even know we had.
Let's get crackin'! I'll contribute some ideas to get us started. As soon as someone presents and idea or the results of research, I'll update the OP.
TL ; DR: This is how we operate:
Step 1: Someone presents an idea.
Step 2: The idea is refined and then posted in the "Current Investigations" section
Step 3: Someone volunteers to do research on said idea.
Step 4: The results are reported, and then they will be posted in the "Conclusions" section.
About Empirical and In-Game Studies- An Empirical Study is something that we just need to test out (usually on 36 characters). It's something that gives us concrete numbers. We need SCIENCE! and Mathcarios!
An In-Game Study is something that everyone can help out with, so there's no reason not to. Are you playing friendlies with someone? Try out the things suggested in the In-Game Study. You might find a mindgame or strategy you really like, or you might find something to be totally useless or hard to perform. Whatever your experience is, report it to this thread, and we can get some more info on the actual viability of our wacky new ideas. Anyone can help with this, so please do. Help out your fellow Lucarios.
-Recently in this thread:
7/09/09: I get off my lazy butt and start doing some updating again.
7/09/09: SSK has discovered that our Dash Attack can send opponents forward instead of backward. It is currently thought that this occurs when the dash attack hits an opponent whose feet are not touching the ground (in the air). He found a nifty combo that might work as well (see the Combo, Set-ups, Strings, and Traps section in the Conclusions for more) Look for more ways to use this guys! This could be useful!
7/09/09: Phil posts his findings on jabbing out of a FP grab. FPCGing is "back on the map" as phil puts it.
7/11/09: Some new stuff on pummeling is brought to the thread by SuSa
7/12/09: I took the Zelda board's findings on B-reversal DI and try to apply it to Lucario
Open-ended Questions:
This is a new section for questions or ideas that we haven't refined into objective questions yet. I'm placing them here for everyone's consideration. Think about these, and see if you can conceive any possible techniques. If something comes up, I'll put it in the investigations section for testing.
Footstools:
The Question: Are there any combos, gimps, setups, or other ideas for Lucario's footstool? We have already observed other characters employing their footstool with great effect (such as Sheik and ZZS).Jab Cancel/A>A>___:
The Question: What options do we have for finishing the standard A combo besides just A? Some ideas:
Double Team- Punishes retaliatory jabs and nairs,
Reverse Utilt- Very quick hitbox behind Lucario and it sets up for juggling,
Grab- Punishes shielding.
Force Palm Grab- The standard noob's combo that supposedly doesn't work but still does quite a lot.
Dtilt- Just another option really. More spammable that Utilt and can probably poke smaller shields.
Move Decay:
The Question: We have observed some characters utilizing combos that only work with move decay (such as Pikachu and his odd chaingrabs). What potential combos/set-ups/etc. can Lucario do with high move decay in a certain move.Also, I realize that Lucario has an aura boost that can add bad to the knockback, but that doesn't mean move decay shenanigans are not possible. They are only more complex. In fact, what if move decay and aura boost can combine together in a way that gives unique knockback ratios to certain moves? It's a possibility, and that's what this thread is for.
Some ideas:
Utilt?:
Combos, Set-ups, Strings, and Traps:
This one doesn't need a big explanation. If you stumble upon any new combos, set-ups, strings, or traps that you don't think are commonly known of, post 'em up!
Current Investigations:
NEW! B-Reversal DI:
Question: Can Lucario perform the techniques mentioned in the above quote?
Aura Sphere Charge:
-Investigate the potential ability of the Aura Sphere Charge to wall certain approaches, or other usefulness. The idea behind this is to find out if we can block any approaches out, almost like the way Bowser does with fire.Empirical Study: test out common approach moves of all 36 characters on the backside of Lucario charging an aurasphere at 0%, 100%, and 170% (You can test more if you want. The more in-depth, the better).
In-Game Study: Attempt to use Aura Sphere Charge as a mindgame, element of a combo, wall, or other damage-racking tool in real matches and report results.
Question/Idea posed by LordoftheMorning.
Double-Teaming Predictable recoveries:
-Investigate the potential uses of Double-Team on damage-dealing UpBs and SideBs as a kill device.Empirical Study: Analyze the recovery patterns of each of the 36 characters and find out which are easily predicted and punished by double-team.
In-Game Study: Utilize the findings on actual players in a match and determine their effectiveness.
Question/Idea posed by LordoftheMorning
Up Throw's Mindgame Potential
-Investigate the properties of Uthrow at different %s and aura levels, and look for set-ups and mindgames.Empirical Study: What is the trajectory of a Uthrow? How much, if at all, does the knockback change with aura, enemy % and character?
In-Game Study: Analyze an opponents reactionary pattern to being Uthrow'd and look for ways to exploit it.
Question/Idea posed by ph1lny3.
Force Palm Grab Release:
-We know that Force Palm and the Force Palm Chaingrab can sometimes be broken out of. Investigate potential set-ups from the grab release of the Force Palm.Empirical study: What is the frame data for the grab release of a Force Palm grab on all 36 characters? Both aerial grab release and grounded.
In-Game Study Attempt to bait a force palm grab release in a match by using the chaingrab or any other method, and then attempt to punish them with an aura sphere or other move after the grab release.
Question/Idea posed by ph1lny3.
Conclusions:
Aura Sphere Charge:
The following are the common approach moves and projectiles of all 36 characters and whether or not they can be stopped by and Aura Sphere Charge. The list is incomplete. Moves listed in blue are things that still need to be tested. Red are things that won't be blocked by an Aura Sphere Charge, and Green are things that will at the listed %'s. I know this is sloppy and long. I'll combine this into one, sexy list at some point, but I am pressed for time.
Peanut Gun- 0%, Always blocks @ 100%
Banana- Can't be blocked at any %
AC was broken with Lucario and Diddy about 1/2 of FD away from each other with Diddy's peanut gun at nearly full charge. Anything more than requires perfect placement (basically on the very right side of lucario's hand) of the peanut in order to break the charge, any Diddy who can do it consistently deserves to hit you.
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FLUDD
Obviously it doesn't break the charge, but it does still push Lucario, which got some comical effects doing it in training.
Fireball- Can't be blocked at any %
Interesting note about Mario's Cape though, it'll hit you and turn you around, which, if you ever have an aura sphere that isn't at full and you feel like it's coming(a cape, that is), and make for some interesting mind games and hilarious moments.
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-All 3 of his projectiles can't be blocked at any percent.
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Laser cannot be blocked at any %
Stops UpB at 170% and probably lower.
He'll be hit if he goes after you with his right B, but he'll still go through you. It kind of has an interesting effect and he lands right in front of you with a little bit of lag. That was at 17%, I didn't really test anything under that.
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Thundershock can't be blocked at any %. Fully Charged Skull Bash can't be blocked at any %
Quick Attack and Uncharged Skull Bash will be blocked starting at 100%(maybe lower?)
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-Frying Pan stuff can't be blocked at any %
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Fireballs can't be blocked at any %
-Side B can be stopped at any % (however, Luigi's Side B is more of a matter of placement. If Luigi manages to place himself near the top of the Aura Charge, he'll go right through it at any %.
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:shiek:/
Needles can be blocked at any %.
It also prevents Shiek from hitting you with the last part of her Vanish. Unfortunately it doesn't do the same for Farore's Wind.
Still need to test Sheik's Dash Attack, Bair, Fair, Ftilt, Chain, DACUS. Still need to test Zelda's Dash Attack, Fair/Bair.
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Arrows can't be blocked at any %
Angel Ring will sometimes be trumped, and sometimes both Pit and Lucario will be hit, at 100% and up.
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Screw Attack can be blocked if the MK screws up the placement, but that was only at 170%, and only when I aimed it RIGHT at the aura charge.
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-Laser's can't be blocked at any %
-He can go through the aura charge without being stopped using his right B, but he has to be pretty close to do that.(Details Needed)
Like fox, his UpB can be stopped at any percent, but Lucario will be hit as well at lower percents.
Still need to test Pivot Grab
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His water gun is the same as Mario's FLUDD.
Withdraw can SOMETIMES be repelled (without either character being injured) if Lucario is at 200% and squirtle uses it on the ground.
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-Razor leaf can't be blocked at any %
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Quickdraw can't be blocked at any %
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None of his explosives can be blocked at any %.
However, interesting fact about snakes missile: If he tries to go through at ANY % you can press left/right/shield and the missile will go right through you. If you dodge away from the missile, however, snake can attempt to aim at your tail and it will still hit you, but only in that particular situation.
Still need to test DACUS
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Turnips can't be blocked at any %
Side B from the ground can be blocked at any %.
Still need to test Hovering Dair (from different heights)
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-Eggs are easily aimed to break through an Aura Charge at any %.
Eggroll can be blocked starting at 50% by an AC. at 0% it stops Yoshi, but also hits Lucario.
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-Dark Dive (Side B) can be Blocked starting at 150%, however, at 150% it is still possible to go through the AC, at 170% it isn't.
Wizard Kick can be stopped starting at 50%. I was able to break through the AC with his down B a couple of times even at 150%, but it was extremely difficult to do, for me anyway. Maybe I'm just bad with Ganondorf.(Details Needed)
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Ice Blocks can be blocked starting at 100%.
Their right B can be stopped starting at 150% if the ICs use it from far away. If they use it from a certain distance up close they can still break through.
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-Waddle-Dees can be blocked at any %. Gordos can sometimes be block, even at 0%.
-Dash Attack can be blocked at any %
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-Laser can't be blocked at any %
Up B can be blocked at any %.
His Side B (now this is fun) can be stopped by an AC at 50% or up, near the end of the move itself of course. If wolf is, say, off the edge, and you start charging an Aura Sphere right there on the edge (with the sphere facing away from the platform) and wolf tries to use his right B to get up to you and recover, he'll get caught up in the AC. Nifty trick there. It might be possible to get through... somebody else might want to test this as well.
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Aura Sphere can't be blocked at any %
-Ftilt can't be blocked at any %
Extremespeed cannot go through an Aura Charge.
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PK Fire, PK Thunder, PK Flash, Yoyo, and Dash Attack cannot be blocked at any %.
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Sonic's Homing Attack, Spin Dash, and Dash Attack can all be stopped by AC at any %.
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Fire, UpB, Fsmash, and Dash Attack can't be blocked at any %
Klaw can be blocked above 50% (maybe higher)
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Aura Charge can stop his bike starting at 100%, but it can't be blocked if he does a wheelie.
Wario's Dash Attack can be blocked at 50%.
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Projectiles and dash attack can't be blocked at any %.
TLink's bomb can be slowed down similarly to Snake's missile. It's , again, very possible to press left/right/shield in order to simple pretend the bomb doesn't exist. You have less time to press these buttons at lower %s.
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ROBs laser and dash attack can't be blocked at any %.
-His Gyro is possible to dodge in a similar manner to TLinks and Snakes, but it doesn't slow down as much, so you have not a lot of time, even at 200%. I would advise simply dodging in general, or jumping, as opposed to using AC.
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Olimar's right B can make it through even at 170%. The only catch is that his little pikmin get thrown off almost instantly . I was only able to get the blue and yellow ones through at 200%. At 0% I could only get the yellow and white ones through.
Olimar's fsmash is completely walled at any %. Interesting.....
Still need to test GRAB and Fair.
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Falcon's right B is blocked by AC at any %.
Falcon kick can go through AC at any % with the right spacing, but it can also be blocked at 150% and up.
Still need to test THE KNEE, Dair (from the side), Dash Attack, Nair, and Grab.
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Pound can't be blocked at any %.
A fully charged Rollout can be blocked starting at 50%.
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No PK moves can be blocked at any % (including PKT2).
Dash Attack can't be blocked at any %
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Need to test Fair, Bair, Dancing Blade, Nair, Dash Attack, and Grab.
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Need to test Stun Gun, Plasma Whip, Fair, Grab, Dash Attack, and Down B.
-Contributed by WakerofWinds. Good ****, man. And uh... I organized and color-coded.Back to this now! New post because editing the old one was kind of dumb. I did it with D3 and Olimar... and just, it wasn't nearly as fun as actually just posting it up.Anyway, here we go again. Same notes as before. Adding onto the grab note from last time: grabbing with a lot of these characters through it is a LOT more difficult than it sounds... Also... it gets difficult to grab (with most) in between 150-170. Anyway... CONTINUE!? Y/N
Y!
Starting with Falco this time.
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Falco:
Grab- Can go through the AC at any %.
Bair- Cannot be stopped by AC at any %.
Dair- I wouldn't really say it went THROUGH the AC, but it's extremely easy to get around it, even with a SHDair coming from the side. (that's at any %).
Note on his side B: when I said pretty close, I mean, like, right up next to Lucario's AC without being hit by it.
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Squirtle:
Fair- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Bair- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Grab- I was able to break through the AC at any %... but it took like 50 tries to do at 170%.
It gets easier to break through at 150% (which only took me 3 tries).
Dash Attack- Able to break through the AC at any %.
I really don't know what a shellshifted usmash is though.
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Ivysaur:
Bair- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Fair- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Grab- Grab easily goes through at any %.
Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any %.
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Ike:
Fair- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Grab- Able to go through at any %.
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Snake:
Ftilt- Able to go through at any %.
Utilt- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Grab- Able to go through at any %.
Again... somebody else is going to need to test DACUS.
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Peach:
Fair-Cannot be stopped at any %.
Bair- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Grab- Able to go through at any %.
Hovering Dair- I'm not really sure how low it goes, but the lowest I got it (tapping tap jump and y at the same time, fast enough to do a zap jump with lucas if you know what that is) was able to go through it easily at any %.
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Yoshi:
B move/Grab- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Bair- Able to go through at any %.
Dair approach- Cannot be stopped at any %.
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Ganondorf:
Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Grab- Able to go through at any %.
Fair- Cannot be stopped at any %.
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ICs:
Blizzard- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Grab- Able to go through at any %.
Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any %.
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Lucario (YAY!):
Dash Attack- Interestingly enough, at around 100% it becomes extremely hard to break through AC with dash attack.
Grab- Able to go through at any %.
Fair- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Bair- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Force Palm- Can go through at any % on either Lucario.
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Ness:
Bair- Able to go through at any %.
Fair- Cannot be stopped at any %.
Grab- Able to go through at any %.
PKT2- AC stops it at any %.
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Sonic:
Grab- Able to go through AC at any %.
Fair- Possible to go through AC at any %.
Bair- Cannot be stopped at any %.
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Bowser:
Grab- Pretty easy to grab through AC at any %.
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Wario:
Bair- Cannot be blocked at any %.
Dair-Dair only broke it from the side at 0%. And, on an even nice note, even when Wario was directly on top of of Lucario (starting at about 100%) it still either didn't hit Lucario, or it hit both Lucario and Wario.
Nair- Nair can break through up to about 50%, but even at 0% it's very difficult.
Fair- Able to go through at any %.
Grab- Possible to go through at any %.
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From the charts here, I can see some uses in walling Olimar and King Dedede, two of our harder matchups. I'm calling for in-game testers now. Try this out against Dededes and Olimars (and every other character you want to)! It might stop their camping game in it's tracks, and if it's able to to outrange their grabs, then we might have gained ourselves a significant weapon. Remember to note that grabbing you, while possible, is very hard to do at high %s, and in the current metagame, it's not something that people will be practiced in doing (this will likely change with time).
Double-Teaming Predictable Recoveries
Pending.....Up Throw's Mindgame Potential
The following chart was made by hough123. This chart shows the vertical knockback of a Uthrow in units of the blocks on custom stage ground.
Now, we need fnd out what we can capitalize. These numbers need to mean something. We need to test what possible set-ups can occur at each of these heights.
Force Palm Grab Release:
Pending......New Combos, Strings, Set-ups, and Traps:
-Uthrow>Dash Attack>Fair>Nair- Contributed by SuperSmashKing009Also an interesting find on the behavior of the Dash Attack.
-Phil's Discovery (Close Combat?)
Okay so I'm not 100% sure what this is, so I'll just quote the man himself for now.
I will try to simplify the explanation a bit once I'm able to try it out for myself (tonight). Also, if someone can get a video of this up, I would love them. Good **** phil!Okay, I'm posting this info stuff to both lucario BRs (and now these boards), so here it goes:
Late one evening, I was getting really, really frustrated in practice mode. I was looking for ways to trick an opponent into a grab, and every time the grab range on both grabs were just so tiny to manage. I started looking at FP, and how fair could connect reliably after it. Then I wondered "jab is usually a good thing to try to get a grab off, it's faster than most of the grabs and has more range". I started to wonder, what could jab really do? I got a spark, started jabbing, went for FP, and then I tried jab. "No, doesn't really work" I thought to myself (was toying with a fox I think). Then I forgot the big thing: You had to walk to FPCG most of the time, surely it would work with jab. So I worked around a bit, AA-FP, or sometimes A-FP, then I walked slowly, jabbed, and sure enough, I nailed him, and could get the FP again. The real trick behind it is it takes some tricky DI for some characters to get out of the jabs (and spotdodge or such), but that's where the "pseudo-tech chase" mentality comes in. You really have several options:
AA (usual)
A (good to throw off timing if they were used to the standard)
jab cancelled AA/A- kind of risky, but will punish spotdodge and help if you didn't get close enough at times)
AS/aerial- for that occasional "OMG he's flying away while AD!" moment.
and of course, shield, for the really rare 1 frame jabs (most of the time, you don't need to worry about invincible upBs, they're really risky since jab usually picks them up).
The beauty of this is FP is also an option for this, the pseudo-chase is designed so beautifully, becausein order to release, FP needs to be predicted BEFORE it begins. jab mixups mess up the opponent's timing, also somewhat extends the max % you can CG them with (it can let you do it usually to get in a dash grab or something before they fly away too far for you to do anything reliable). It also sets up well for offstage walling since FP does so well at setting up fairs.
If they get the rare occurance that they go far away from the jabs, almost everytime they will do spotdodge/AD, that's when AS or fair really work.
This wasn't entirely as big as I hoped for, but I feel it's pretty solid, and kind of puts FP shenanigans back on the map, and best of all, this seems to work best against D3 and snake (some of our worst matchups where we really need to get a reliable percent lead). I bet in time that this will get a little more worn out and slightly more predictable, but I feel it boosts lucario's damage racking and ground game a bit more.
I don't know if this has been discovered before (I wasn't aware of it, and checked a bit to make sure), and it seems pretty useful, considering that it can be adjusted to both players %'s (I think ideally lucario can do this up until about his percent hits the 20-30 percent mark, but haven't tested much)
What I've tested:
D3 (human opponent)
DK (human opponent)
Bowser (human opponent)
snake (human opponent)
Questions? Comments? Concerns? Kapeesh?
Now to name it if it takes off...
I was thinking Close Combat (canonical pokemon attack), or even SCIENCE! lol. I was going to do some more testing, but I felt it was more important for lucarios going to Genesis to know a possible tool.
Here's a vid of the above tactic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdIR9pEkAoo (Contributed by SSK)
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-Anything you have to contribute, be they videos, research, frame data, testimonials, questions, ideas, etc. are VERY WELCOME HERE!
