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Lucario+ (Aura Extraordinaire)

D

Deleted member

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semi bump.
seeing as how most of the cast has recieved or is recieving some polish up tweaks, I was wondering how people would think about doing something with lucario.
I'm not talking about how we did upB (that was cool), but minor tweaks that would make lucario a more interesting character etc.

suggestions are welcome, since I dropped lucario as main for B+ some time ago, so I can't think of everythign myself.
 

ZeonStar

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I think lucario may be too good right now, what was the reason behind buffing his upb? Wasnt lucario considered high tier in vbrawl? And now he can combo like a god, I really think the backroom needs to reconsider some of the buffs.
 

shanus

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I think lucario may be too good right now, what was the reason behind buffing his upb? Wasnt lucario considered high tier in vbrawl? And now he can combo like a god, I really think the backroom needs to reconsider some of the buffs.
While I think Lucario is very good now, I don't think he is quite at the level of Fox, MK, Squirtle, Kirby, etc.

I'm surprised you've singled out Lucario as one.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
yes high tier in vBrawl. fox was mediocre and ganon was uberfail in vBrawl.

vBrawl boards are that way ------>

and I didn't neccesarily mean buffing him, but polishing him so he "feels" better. think about some tradeoffs.
 

Revven

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Lucario isn't someone to fear really is what the main thing is. His main game in vBrawl was camping and spamming with Aura Sphere, now it's a lot harder to do that in + AND it is still his best option of approach or keep away.

As a Ganon main, do you honestly fear Lucario's little balls of purple?... Especially with your newly enhanced approaching options (Fair and Bair come to mind, a useful Dthrow, and you still have Thunderstorming and Side B).
 

Rayku

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Lucario isn't someone to fear really is what the main thing is. His main game in vBrawl was camping and spamming with Aura Sphere, now it's a lot harder to do that in + AND it is still his best option of approach or keep away.

As a Ganon main, do you honestly fear Lucario's little balls of purple?... Especially with your newly enhanced approaching options (Fair and Bair come to mind, a useful Dthrow, and you still have Thunderstorming and Side B).
You've obviously fought bad Lucario's in vBrawl if that's all they ever did to you. Camping is one of Lucario's weaker options.

I think Lucario's perfectly fine the way he is. The upB didn't really make him outstandingly broken. The only time I ever put it into my game is usually when I consciously think about it. It's really good for a "wtf" moment.

The only thing that I would want changed about Lucario at this point is his N-air cooldown. It's about as long as Ike's was in vBrawl, still, and Ike's N-air got the cooldown reduced a LOT (so that he doesn't automatically kill himself when he uses that move offstage). I have no complaints.

I'm still fairly new to Brawl+, but I do know both of my characters well (Ike and Lucario). Pertaining to Lucario, I've given my two cents.

@Zeon: Lucario is mid-tier in vBrawl. He was at the bottom of high tier on the very first tier list.
 

KarateF22

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I'm back people, sorry for being gone so long... college among other things got in the way... lets get this thread moving again. I'll find something for us to talk about tomorrow if noone else does.
 

PKNintendo

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You've obviously fought bad Lucario's in vBrawl if that's all they ever did to you. Camping is one of Lucario's weaker options.

I think Lucario's perfectly fine the way he is. The upB didn't really make him outstandingly broken. The only time I ever put it into my game is usually when I consciously think about it. It's really good for a "wtf" moment.

The only thing that I would want changed about Lucario at this point is his N-air cooldown. It's about as long as Ike's was in vBrawl, still, and Ike's N-air got the cooldown reduced a LOT (so that he doesn't automatically kill himself when he uses that move offstage). I have no complaints.

I'm still fairly new to Brawl+, but I do know both of my characters well (Ike and Lucario). Pertaining to Lucario, I've given my two cents.

@Zeon: Lucario is mid-tier in vBrawl. He was at the bottom of high tier on the very first tier list.
Sorry to but in the but the first tier list isn't nearly accurate and the current one isn't that efficient. (S tier to B tier ish is good)
 

Rkey

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You can get numbers on when counter kills depending on enemies percent and on lucarios percent. Good to know.
 
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You've obviously fought bad Lucario's in vBrawl if that's all they ever did to you. Camping is one of Lucario's weaker options.
Heh... funny you mention that... :embarrass

I am starting to get the feeling I must suck. I cannot get around my friend's lucario. This is not hating on the character at all; all my friend does is roll, jab, grab, ftilt, fsmash, and aura sphere. In fact, almost only the first one and last two. And I just can't punish him for it. He rolls away and I'm stuck eating his dust while he gets time to charge an aura sphere. And I consistently get hit by fsmashes when I attempt to approach; they kill most of my chars around 70-90! It's scary. I can't see them coming for some reason and I can't score a kill move on him. I have to constantly press the offense or he ends up killing me. I use Zelda, Ganon, Fox, Luigi, and Wario-all to no or almost no avail. It's driving me up the wall-HOW DO I PUNISH THAT ROLL???
 

Rayku

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Heh... funny you mention that... :embarrass

I am starting to get the feeling I must suck. I cannot get around my friend's lucario. This is not hating on the character at all; all my friend does is roll, jab, grab, ftilt, fsmash, and aura sphere. In fact, almost only the first one and last two. And I just can't punish him for it. He rolls away and I'm stuck eating his dust while he gets time to charge an aura sphere. And I consistently get hit by fsmashes when I attempt to approach; they kill most of my chars around 70-90! It's scary. I can't see them coming for some reason and I can't score a kill move on him. I have to constantly press the offense or he ends up killing me. I use Zelda, Ganon, Fox, Luigi, and Wario-all to no or almost no avail. It's driving me up the wall-HOW DO I PUNISH THAT ROLL???
Well, obviously he plays Wifi if he rolls a lot. Rolling makes Lucario near God-tier online, from what I've heard. It's also a very bad habit to get a hold of, because once you get used to predicting them, man. It hurts. Snake is very good at punishing Lucario for everything he does.

Ganondorf can kill Lucario fairly early. If you want to learn how to punish his roll, predict him rolling behind you and give him a sweet D-air. Be wary of getting gimped by Lucario, though. His F-air chains can dominate you.

Fox can upsmash Lucario to death. Lucario's primary weakness is that he dies off the top rather early. Again, be wary of F-air chains off the stage. They will kill you really easily. I think Fox vs. Lucario is pretty far in Lucario's favor.

I don't know anything about Zelda. She gets dominated by Lucario in vBrawl, I would assume it's the same. Again, F-air chains will leave her helpless

Luigi kills retardedly early, but Lucario vs. Luigi is very difficult. I wouldn't try it with that.

Wario can camp Lucario like no other. I don't think it would be as useful in Brawl+, though, because of the combo ability.

As far as Fsmash goes, either learn how to powershield it or spotdodge it. That just takes practice. Ftilt is a rather bad move.

If you want to contact me on AIM, I'll tell you all the ways to beat Lucario and whatnot. I've played him since day 1, and I main him in Brawl+
 

iLink

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If he's rolling behind you, that shouldn't be hard to punish. Just fsmash or something backwards when you think he's going to do it. If you think he's going to do it away then chase after him and pressure him to roll behind once he gets to the ledge and then do what I mentioned before.
 

F1ZZ

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Oh wow this thread got revived. I will stick around her and help out as much as I can. Glad that you are back Karate! Even thought vBrawl is my main focus I will try to get better at B+. :)
 

KarateF22

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Necro = SUCCESS!

Long live Lucario!

Now lets keep this thread going :bee:
Heres one: did you know Lucario can chaingrab snake, fox, falco, captain falcon, and other fast fallers with his uthrow at varying percentages?
 

Revven

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Don't forget, Karate, the CG is also your aura % and aura stock dependent as well (and DI dependent) so the CG has a lot of factors to it against those characters.
 

F1ZZ

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Necro = SUCCESS!

Long live Lucario!

Now lets keep this thread going :bee:
Heres one: did you know Lucario can chaingrab snake, fox, falco, captain falcon, and other fast fallers with his uthrow at varying percentages?
Ya I knew this. I think the only difference for vBrawl to B+ regarding the Uthrow CG is that it works on more people. I might be wrong but I am 90% sure im correct.
 

KarateF22

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Don't forget, Karate, the CG is also your aura % and aura stock dependent as well (and DI dependent) so the CG has a lot of factors to it against those characters.
Thats why i said at varying percentages, it is only guaranteed at a small range of percentages, but very hard to avoid at other percentages
 

Rayku

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This thread should not die. There are not enough Lucario+ players.

I won a Brawl+ tournament recently. Hopefully videos will be up soon. I did discover something REALLY nifty, though.

Lucario has an "infinite" ledge stall, like Fox/Falco do in Melee. Just drop down and upB auto-snap the ledge. Isn't that so cool? And if they grab the ledge before you do (which is very hard to do), you can just go straight up and your free fall doesn't hurt you at all. It's very good for edgehogging and refreshing your invincibility, particularly against Ganondorf/Captain Falcon.
 

Sovereign

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Lucario's UpB is just amazing in this game. Pursue an offstage opponent, (attempt to) gimp them, double jump to assure the gimp, and UpB back to safety. I really think that his aura and weight give him a huge advantage in Brawl+.

His combos can last forever with Utilts to Uair chains, and pursue with UpB for a finishing touch, and his CG can start combos, that can easily become death combos, if you manage to read the opponent's DI.

These improvements have put him among the best in the cast, and a lot of them are the reason I main him in Brawl+. He's much faster and much more mobile in this one, and still retains his floaty factor.
 

iLink

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This thread should not die. There are not enough Lucario+ players.

I won a Brawl+ tournament recently. Hopefully videos will be up soon. I did discover something REALLY nifty, though.

Lucario has an "infinite" ledge stall, like Fox/Falco do in Melee. Just drop down and upB auto-snap the ledge. Isn't that so cool? And if they grab the ledge before you do (which is very hard to do), you can just go straight up and your free fall doesn't hurt you at all. It's very good for edgehogging and refreshing your invincibility, particularly against Ganondorf/Captain Falcon.
He could do that in regular brawl as well, just not to the same extent since there are lagless ledges now.
 

CountKaiser

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KOKingpin was talking to me about Lucario on the chat.

He says that Lucario needs to be looked at again, because, according to him, Luc has no real weakness. Uthrow has little growth and can link into a uair at kill percents, he can combo like crazy, can gimp pretty well, and he has an UpB infinite ledge stall, which leads to planking.

One thing he wanted was for the UpB to no longer autosnap. He also wanted an actual hitbox on the UpB rather than Lucario being able to attack out of it.

Also, I mentioned making Lucario like Falco or sheik, who mainly kill from gimps, and he liked that idea.
 

iLink

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Considering Lucario can't effectively KO until 60-70% or so means he does kind of relay on gimps when needed. His weakness is, well he's weak when he doesn't have damage on him. He can still be effectively edgegaurded if people bothered to time when they grab the ledge.

U-air will not KO after an U-throw unless you don't DI or do anything at all >_> and it can only KO if he has a fair amount of damage on him.

I believe the autosnap couldn't be changed due to limitations something. I wouldn't mind him not being able to autosnap though.

I personally think it was great that lucario can attack out of up-b because it doesn't make him as one-dimensional.
 

KOkingpin

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Considering Lucario can't effectively KO until 60-70% or so means he does kind of relay on gimps when needed. His weakness is, well he's weak when he doesn't have damage on him. He can still be effectively edgegaurded if people bothered to time when they grab the ledge.

U-air will not KO after an U-throw unless you don't DI or do anything at all >_> and it can only KO if he has a fair amount of damage on him.

I believe the autosnap couldn't be changed due to limitations something. I wouldn't mind him not being able to autosnap though.

I personally think it was great that lucario can attack out of up-b because it doesn't make him as one-dimensional.
Lucario combos insanely well at low percentages and can gimp well at low percentages. Lucario can also Kill very easily at high percentages, but thats not the issue here. Up throw has VERY Little growth. Lucario can link it with Up air at almost any reasonable percentage if he is at low percentages and It links to Uair KOs at 130ish if lucario is at a high percentage. Up Throw has no way to DI out of the throw that wont lead to Uair at 100% and above. weve tested this over and over with all types of DI and Smash DI. seriously watch some of the Videos we have of Rayku's Lucario. There is a Lucario ditto between Rayku and -Chad- in the finals even. http://www.youtube.com/user/GameGalaxyBrawl

As for attacking out of the Up B with the Autosnap its too good. Give the move a hit box kinda like quick attack but with some knockback (not much) With autosnap, the ability to attack out of it, and ******** planking, the move is just too OP. He has probably the best of the ledge game in Brawl+ and the best recovery too. Up B needs a massive gimp.
 

Kitamerby

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Also, I mentioned making Lucario like Falco or sheik, who mainly kill from gimps, and he liked that idea.
Making Lucario a gimp-based character goes against everything he stands for. Seriously. <<

You have a character who gets stronger as he takes more damage, changing from the weakest character in the game to the strongest character in the game at the risk of one hit = death... but has to gimp for KOs?


I think we need a little more testing with Lucario before you jump to conclusions and nerf what isn't broken, other than maybe the planking and Uthrow. The planking is too good, lol. Uthrow, too. <<

Dammit, we finally have a good, fun, non-gay character. Don't take it away from us. ;-;
 

shanus

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I also know how to do that, but yeah, I would like to see some more lucario representation before anyone theorycrafts how broken he is.

Regardless, upB having a hitbox = pure silliness
 

DarkDragoon

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I also know how to do that, but yeah, I would like to see some more lucario representation before anyone theorycrafts how broken he is.

Regardless, upB having a hitbox = pure silliness
xD Yea, give it a hitbox and what are you supposed to do against players who learn how to sweetspot the ledge?
-DD
 

KOkingpin

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Why was it even done? Lucario's recovery was already broken before with the auto snap.
I agree with this statement 100%. If you cant fix something that is Insanely good(and no one else has on Up B) why would you make it better?

Seriously, we have a lot of videos from the Game Galaxy series of Lucario's stupidness. Its really just three things that are the major issues. His utter lack of knockback at low percentages(mainly from fair), Up B(If you cant take the autosnap away let it send him into free fall, If you dont want to give it a hitbox thats fine too Im just trying to make the lucario players a bit happy with this change), and Up throw(that mess combos into death at almost any percentage depending on Lucario's percentage and the Luc players say "Well when im at 50 percent it doesnt kill till 170-180ish" But it still links together till then is the problem).
 

DarkDragoon

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>_> No AutoSnap would be fine, imo, then Lucarios need to learn something, as opposed to redesigning how they play if you take away something like the no-freefall, or add a hitbox, then it just changes around options, because people do use Extremespeed onstage too, since it has approach potentials.
-DD
 

KOkingpin

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>_> No AutoSnap would be fine, imo, then Lucarios need to learn something, as opposed to redesigning how they play if you take away something like the no-freefall, or add a hitbox, then it just changes around options, because people do use Extremespeed onstage too, since it has approach potentials.
-DD
Honestly Im ok as long as one of the two gets taken away (autosnap and No-Freefall) either of these are game changing effects that kinda make lucario (some what) easy mode.
 

Rayku

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LOL @ These suggestions.

His "utter lack of knockback at low percents" was his same problem in vBrawl, and no one complained. Why? Because combos don't truly exist, and Lucario was terrible at punishing things because his moves released slowly. Now, he can combo very well from a grab.

Let's consider something, though. Lucario can combo about 12 hits with no problem at 0 percent. I think it's wonderful that this massive, 12 hit combo does about 30 damage, if that. You can look at Ganondorf, who can do about 110% damage with 5 hits, and no one complains about that. Yes, Ganondorf has his weaknesses, but we're just talking about combo material and damage output. What about Ness, who can use F-air to any of his aerial moves as a combo, including the D-air which has more knockback at 0 than it did in Smash 64, and is unable to be meteor-canceled? I hope you're complaining about other characters as well while you are complaining about Lucario's brokenness.

Upthrow is a bit ridiculous, but the aura is what makes that so. It's always had that form of knockback in vBrawl. Lucario can't kill with an upthrow --> U-air combo until his opponent is at about 190% (while he is at 0) or until about 125% (while he is at 100%). In comparison to a game such as Melee, where you have characters with stupid grab --> death combos (Ganondorf, Fox, Falcon, Pikachu) at high percents, it's really not that ridiculous. Most characters, from what I've seen, have a reliable grab-to-kill move combo at higher percents, I don't see why Lucario can't have one either.

Let's not forget about Bowser's UpThrow knockback. If you look through GameGalaxyBrawl's videos on youtube, you could find "Rayku vs. ZeonStar 2, Lucario vs. Bowser" on Halberd, and watch me lose my last stock, helpless to do anything.

upB is the only thing Lucario got in Brawl+ that makes him any different than in vBrawl. Go ahead and take it away, I don't really mind. However, a really nice change would be so that there is no lag after landing, so he can't be killed by punishing him like a G (kind of like what you can do to Sheik in Melee). I would very much like a small hitbox on Lucario's extremespeed (I mean, it's more powerful than Quick Attack, and Pikachu gets a hitbox. Real talk, baby), and taking away the free fall. That'd be awesome.

@CloneHat: -broken-? Metaknight's recovery is BROKEN, sir. Lucario is very far from having a broken recovery "before auto-snap," unless you're referring to his lack of freefall afterwards, in which case Lucario's recovery is simply "very good," and not broken. In Lucario matchup discussions on other character boards that I have seen, I have seen Lucario players defend his recovery as not being bad, while ignorant people say that Lucario has one of the worst recoveries in the game.

@KOKingPin: Chad went Lucario in the last match because he didn't think Falcon would work, and Lucario was the only other character he knew how to play that he felt stood a chance. At least, that's what he said to me.

In General about the planking, which apparently isn't anything new (according to what that guy posted earlier when I said something about it, you could do that in vBrawl and it was "just as bad." Wonder why no Lucarios ever did it in vBrawl to win. Oh yeah, because it was gimpable). It's not anything to do with Lucario's fault. The quick startup on upB was a random change that was thought to be good, and it keeps its invincibility because of a general rule that Brawl+ has (the instant let-go-of-ledge property). If I ever saw a Lucario use that in order to win, I would be ashamed.
Brawl+ still needs a legdge-grap rule to be enforced.
 

KOkingpin

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LOL @ These suggestions.

His "utter lack of knockback at low percents" was his same problem in vBrawl, and no one complained. Why? Because combos don't truly exist, and Lucario was terrible at punishing things because his moves released slowly. Now, he can combo very well from a grab.

Let's consider something, though. Lucario can combo about 12 hits with no problem at 0 percent. I think it's wonderful that this massive, 12 hit combo does about 30 damage, if that. You can look at Ganondorf, who can do about 110% damage with 5 hits, and no one complains about that. Yes, Ganondorf has his weaknesses, but we're just talking about combo material and damage output. What about Ness, who can use F-air to any of his aerial moves as a combo, including the D-air which has more knockback at 0 than it did in Smash 64, and is unable to be meteor-canceled? I hope you're complaining about other characters as well while you are complaining about Lucario's brokenness.

The problem is that this isn't vBrawl. it seems like the 12 hit combo he does gets you to 60ish% then he can do it again from 60-100ish. It takes ganon roughly 7-8 hits to get someone to 110%

Upthrow is a bit ridiculous, but the aura is what makes that so. It's always had that form of knockback in vBrawl. Lucario can't kill with an upthrow --> U-air combo until his opponent is at about 190% (while he is at 0) or until about 125% (while he is at 100%). In comparison to a game such as Melee, where you have characters with stupid grab --> death combos (Ganondorf, Fox, Falcon, Pikachu) at high percents, it's really not that ridiculous. Most characters, from what I've seen, have a reliable grab-to-kill move combo at higher percents, I don't see why Lucario can't have one either.


Let's not forget about Bowser's UpThrow knockback. If you look through GameGalaxyBrawl's videos on youtube, you could find "Rayku vs. ZeonStar 2, Lucario vs. Bowser" on Halberd, and watch me lose my last stock, helpless to do anything.

I agree that something also needs to be done about bowser's Up Throw the same way that lucario's needs to be changed but we should probably post that in Bowser+ thread
upB is the only thing Lucario got in Brawl+ that makes him any different than in vBrawl. (AND HIT STUN THAT MAKES HIS vBRAWL COMBOS LAST 10x LONGER) Go ahead and take it away, I don't really mind. However, a really nice change would be so that there is no lag after landing, so he can't be killed by punishing him like a G (kind of like what you can do to Sheik in Melee). I would very much like a small hitbox on Lucario's extremespeed (I mean, it's more powerful than Quick Attack, and Pikachu gets a hitbox. Real talk, baby), and taking away the free fall. That'd be awesome.

But seriously I like the Idea of lagless landing with a hit box instead of No Freefall + autosnap

@CloneHat: -broken-? Metaknight's recovery is BROKEN, sir. Lucario is very far from having a broken recovery "before auto-snap," unless you're referring to his lack of freefall afterwards, in which case Lucario's recovery is simply "very good," and not broken. In Lucario matchup discussions on other character boards that I have seen, I have seen Lucario players defend his recovery as not being bad, while ignorant people say that Lucario has one of the worst recoveries in the game.

Lucario has the safest "Traditional" recovery in the game. Sure metaknight can fly under the stage to get away but if he glides off stage he is incredibly vulnerable. Overall I think the are about even for the best recovery in Brawl+

@KOKingPin: Chad went Lucario in the last match because he didn't think Falcon would work, and Lucario was the only other character he knew how to play that he felt stood a chance. At least, that's what he said to me.
I did my input in red obviously.

but seriously Rayku you and I both know lucario needs some work done.
 
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