Lucario+ (Aura Extraordinaire)

[Veril]

Lucario is really really good. Part of that reflects the overly large stage boundaries on all the starters except Warioware. I've been working on the new boundaries for some time so that matches will progress more quickly without people always passing beyond the sweetspot where combos into KO moves are effective. This is going to affect FD, BF, and SV, but not PSII (which will be the larger neutral).

The other issues with Lucario are his up-throw and up-b. I think the endlag speedup was a stupid change that tbh I thought was removed in 6.0 when I was discussing Lucario at Pound 4. It wasn't. Actually making that change would be a pretty big slap in the face to all the players I spoke to though, so I'm opposed to it. On the other hand, his up-throw has multiple CGs that fit the criteria for brokeness (inescapable 50+% CG). So that's getting fixed.

Other than that you've all got to learn to fight him. I'm in no way convinced that he's the B+ MK.


Oh, and he obviously isn't getting a recovery fix/buff. That's just silly.

 

[Plum]

Lucario's recovery is among the best in the game.
Distance wise its lacking, but when it comes to gimping him is extremely hard. It doesn't matter what angle he's recovering from, his Up B can just maneuver past it. And he has the ability to Up B first, then double jump once he's confident he'll be getting back onstage.

He's among the best characters, without a doubt. It's what happens when high tier characters in vBrawl take well to B+ physics. To be honest, characters like Pikachu and Olimar are in similar positions to Lucario but they are well out of the limelight. Lucario's a little bit different in the sense that his Uthrow is legit ********, but try to fight an Olimar and you'll probably feel the same way about him. It's like if your name isn't Falco then you get outcamped by Olimar. And at times it seems like he stuffs virtually every approach in the game with his smashes, stupidly good Purple Pikmin, and that ****ing pivot grab.

Lucario requires smart play to go up against. He's just something you need a lot of experience against.

 

[matt4300]

I'm also a bit sour that His forward B chains bowser to 50% and others nearly as well... I could'nt find the DI to get out of it in the matches I played.

I don't think its a case of him takeing well to brawl+ physics as it is him being one of the few really good chars to barely be nerfed and to get a HUGE buff. Why was lucario buffed again? There was one match where one of the lucarios just up-b'ed around my link like a DBZ character... link could Not keep up at all, and I just had to wait for him to stop so he could start spaming aura sphere.

Lucario was one of the best chars in vbrawl... He has gotten little to no actual nerfs... He has totally broken range once you actualy start winning,,, AND worst of all he got BUFFED to have one of the best recoverys in the game, that is unpunishable by half the cast and can be used to aid his camp and pressure game... I don't know whos idea it was to give him that up-b but it was one of the least warented buffs I have seen...


If I and others are just gonna have to deal with him like he is now than please lucario mains tell me someone that counters him. (waiting for the obligatory "Marth") For god sakes... the lucario mains at this tourney were jokeing about how broken he was, and opted not to play him in friendlys. It made me feel like crap to hear "so much for brawl+ being balanced"

Speaking of pikachu... I have been saying he needed nerfs for over a year... Probley the only char I hate worse than lucario right now. I can't belive I'm saying this, but I hope the next tourny I go to has MK spammers that would be much easier to deal with.

 

[VietGeek]

TL;DR: Not even Marth can beat EV-trained 31 IV sweep-natured Pokemon.

In times of doubt, blame Smogon.

Also I'm almost positive the range-boost Aura effect has been dismissed for quite some time now. Aura stock does not give him a range boost. Everything else seems about right though.

Lucario's weakness would have to be someone that can land quick hits as well as kill well in a consistent fashion (hardest part right here).

Not even Marth can pull off that **** in this game rofl

 

[CountKaiser]

So what's the consensus on Lucario?

Broken, or overhyped?

 

[ZeonStar]

I really dont know what to think of lucario right now, hes got some pretty crazy ****, but...not sure if too good or not.

 

[JCaesar]

Top 5 for sure, and annoying to fight, but broken? Nah, I don't think so.

Also I'm almost positive the range-boost Aura effect has been dismissed for quite some time now. Aura stock does not give him a range boost.

Are you sure? Maybe it's all in my head but it definitely seems like he gets a significant range increase when he's all juiced up. And I know it's not placebo effect because I noticed it long before anyone told me about it. But whatever.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Lucario's range never gets boosted.

Unless he's been buffed like that in B+ >.>

 

[RiteToRmnSilent]

Lucario had all the making of a good character to start off with. Brawl+ nerfed Snake, Kirby, IC's, Marth, Wario, Diddy, DDD, I can't even list the amount of nerfs to MK, basically most good characters saw nerfs in some way. Even some not high tier characters did like Luigi, but Lucario has actually seen a ******** buff which gives him a crazy recovery, among other buffs im sure. (looks at up throw)...He also benefits GREATLY from the hitstun. His combo game has to be among the best, at low and even high percents it seems. I could go on forever about him. I mean recently DDD got nerfed hard, and I think it's time Lucario gets looked at. My verdict, hes definitely not over-hyped seeing as how im sure he can live up to the hype, I'm leaning more towards broken/relatively too good.

 

[F1ZZ]

Lucario is FTW in Brawl+. So many options in recovering and now our recovery lets us attack anything and everything that comes our way. DONE

 

[ZeonStar]

I really hate his recovery over everything, its just so stupidly good. Veril, you said you wanted to keep the endlag change off just because of some of players you know? Why in the first place did lucario get a massively changed recovery in the first place?

Id have been fine with the latch on to the edge like brawl recovery. The recovery you guys added makes lucario even better, I dont understand it at all. Hed probably still be high tier without this crazy recovery.

Meh..im not really worried about it, I bet somethings going to happen to him eventually.

 

[Veril]

Why in the first place did lucario get a massively changed recovery in the first place?

Good question. I don't have an answer for you as I wasn't even in the wbr when that change was implemented.

As it stands Lucario has one aspect that is truly broken, and that is his up-throw. It has multiple high% CGs (which are not B+ kosher at all), % independent autocombos on the entire cast, and Lucario has a lot of tools for getting the grab. This throw is the single most pressing issue with him, not the up-b. His up-b is incredibly good, but it isn't something that is so good it breaks the game. His up-throw does however, by making many matchups nearly impossible to win due to death CGs.

Lucario is definitely getting toned down in 2 ways: he'll die earlier due to stage boundary adjustments, and his up-throw CGs are getting removed.

 

[CountKaiser]

Can the earlier death be used as a point for toning down Lucario, since technically everyone will die earlier, and thus makes the issue a moot point?

 

[Plum]

I think that the current %'s per stock are a factor in Lucario's presence.
Think about it:
Lucario is almost universally gauranteed to max out his aura or at least get very close to it every single stock.
At this point Lucario is encouraged to camp more than any other character. The more he camps at these high percents the stronger he gets. With his damage output maxed out his combos become very painful and his KO power gets high as well. Basically you have a character that benefits from the stage boundaries more than anyone else.

With smaller boundaries he dies earlier which means he will never top off his aura like he manages to do every stock right now. He has a lot of other good stuff going for him but this is going to be a direct strike against his ability to abuse aura. When he hits 180% he becomes such a gay character rewarded for camping in a way that no other character is. I'll be very glad to see that go away or at least be needed.

 

[JCaesar]

Maybe if the stage boundaries don't prove to do enough to keep him from abusing aura, we could consider making him a little lighter. He's on the heavier end of the spectrum right now and he doesn't really need to be.

Making him lighter would make him harder to combo, yes, but in a sense that's bad for Lucario. He won't be taking as much of the damage that he needs to be strong, and on top of that he'll be dying sooner.

Obviously we should wait and see how smaller stage boundaries play out for him before considering this route though. It's just an idea.

 

[iLink]

Just wanted to clarify that his range is NOT extended in any way from his aura boost, besides his aurasphere getting bigger in size.


As for his bad MU's, I generally have a hard time dealing with marth, olimar, and occasionally jigglypuff. I think falco and fox COULD give him a hard time if played evasively, but of course they are susceptible to being thrown all over with combos.


I wouldn't mind making him a little lighter

 

[VietGeek]

"cool" 0-death last stock: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTwjs2CdNbA

rayku would take ppl's money w/ super saiyan lucario

 

[matt4300]

"cool" 0-death last stock: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTwjs2CdNbA

rayku would take ppl's money w/ super saiyan lucario

Throwing fuel on the fire... but man that stage texture was sweet and that falcon doesn't seem to learn about lucarios insta-dair...

 

[Veril]

Captain Falcon cannot beat Lucario if the players are of equal skill, assuming the Lucario knows about the up-throw CG. Of course, that **** will be all sorts of removed, but for now Lucario has a 80:20 or better MU with CF due to up-throw bs.

Lucario really isn't OP outside of his up-throw. The all % autocombos into **** from that move are stupidly good, but its the CGs that stand out as being unacceptable.

 

[VietGeek]

if anything stage's are too op

i mean there are numerous times when i felt that final destination was the real winner of vBrawl grand finals

 

[Rayku]

LOL Lucario has chaingrabs?

Sweeeeeeet

 

[VietGeek]

LOL Rayku

nooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[yummynbeefy]

maybe its just me

lucario feels extremely broken imo hes kinda like wolf you can do some just rediculous stuff with his up-b and his combos are just rediculous sometimes and that god**** up-throw

 

[iLink]

Lucario is the new MK

obv

 

[VietGeek]

well at least he's taller

obv

 

[God of Humility]

Isn't the Aura ability a bit counter-competive? I mean, you're rewarded for taking damage. You can suffer a long combo and then BAM, you're twice as powerful. Granted, you're easier to kill, but why should he gain an advantage by losing?

 

[cobaltblue]

Because he starts to weaken anytime he gains a stock lead. The getting stronger/weaker aspect of him is what makes Lucario a unique character and fun to play. Taking that away from his similar to taking away Sonic's stupidly good run speed.

 

[God of Humility]

I know he weakens when winning, but does it really compensate? Is there any data where we can see the specific efects? I'm pretty sure the power he loses from having a stock lead is less that what is gained for being at high damage.

Imagine this scenario, Lucario vs. Mario. Lucario gets beaten up to high damage and then, he gets stronger enough to combo Mario and kill him. Lucario was rewarded for losing in the beginning.

And even if its a core gameplay element to his fighting style, if its counter-competitive, it should be removed.

 

[JCaesar]

Lucario gets beaten up to high damage and then, he gets stronger enough to combo Mario and kill him.

Actually he gets worse at comboing as his % rises.

Aura is fine ... in singles. There are some pretty ******** things you can do with it in doubles.

 

[_Keno_]

Even in the new build, lucario is broken as ****.

 

[cobaltblue]

I know he weakens when winning, but does it really compensate? Is there any data where we can see the specific efects? I'm pretty sure the power he loses from having a stock lead is less that what is gained for being at high damage.

Imagine this scenario, Lucario vs. Mario. Lucario gets beaten up to high damage and then, he gets stronger enough to combo Mario and kill him. Lucario was rewarded for losing in the beginning.

And even if its a core gameplay element to his fighting style, if its counter-competitive, it should be removed.

Check the Lucario boards, they have a char detailing how strong each moves based on percent.

As the other guy said, at high percents he wouldn't be able to combo. This is actually a good thing as lucario can rack up stupidly good damage at low percents, especially on heavies.

And finally on the subject of broken, I really don't see how he is any worse than Jigglypuff in terms of placement. Top 5? Probably. vB Meta Knight level? Far from it. But maybe the coming months will tell a different story.

 

[Revven]

He lost his Uthrow CG now but he still has combos from it. It got turned into Darkness because Aura is in fact a hit effect, so if someone wanted to get rid of aura completely, they could just change the hit effect to Darkness. And yeah, that's the only move that has Darkness, this was more or less an FYI for Lucario mains.

 

[A New England Winter]

All I'm hearing in this thread is johns

Lucario is average speed and has no truly fast moves (his DAir has limited horizontal range and is easy to punish if predicted, NAir has ridiculous lag in the air, FAir is 6 frame start up and easy to punish, all of his ground moves are really slow compared to other characters'), so he relies on spacing with his high priority normals to get the first hit of a combo. If a character is able to get in on him and rush him down, he's sunk. Sonic runs ****ing circles around Lucario's slow ***, as does Sheik, MK, Fox, Yoshi and Falco. And characters like D3, Kirby, Jiggs and Wario are able to wreck Lucario offstage if he makes even one mistake. His recovery is good, but not perfect.

As well, while Aura Boosts are nice, they put you in the crappy position of taking damage. If a character Lucario is fighting can kill him consistently at earlier percents (D3, Snake, Jiggs, Zelda, Ganon) they don't matter at all. As well, Lucario is average weight and kinda on the big side, which makes him easy to juggle for characters like Yoshi, TL, ZSS and Squirtle.

tl;dr - learn the matchup, stop johning

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211488 - Frame Data on Lucario
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1382/auramythtrainerinfinity.png - Chart detailing Aura Boosts for every move
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239748 - Lucario guide, w/ a bunch of his weaknesses etc.

uthrow cg was silly though, I'll give you that

 

[matt4300]

All I'm hearing in this thread is johns

Don't you think it odd that your hearing nothing but johns ONLY in the lucario thread?

 

[A New England Winter]

Well I heard some in the Sheik, Jiggs, Squirtle, Wario, Ganon and TL threads.

 

[matt4300]

How many of those chars have won + tourneys... Both bama + tournaments Ive been to were won by lucario... Pound4 was won by lucario.

Thats 3 ... more to come.

I'm not gonna whine for nerfs yet... I'm still trying to learn how to fight him, but its looking pretty hopeless. Hopeing everyone doesnt have to mandatorily pick up Marth.
If out of the SIX chars I play, All of them are skrewed by lucario somethings wrong... (I play Link,Bowser,Mario,Samus,Ness,and some falcon)

 

[A New England Winter]

Camp harder with Samus, Lucario can't approach for ****. Zair zair zair zair zair zair missle missle missle missle missle etc.

everyone else idk about them enough to tell you

Bowser's a ***** to fight though

 

[JCaesar]

How many of those chars have won + tourneys... Both bama + tournaments Ive been to were won by lucario... Pound4 was won by lucario.

Uhh no actually Pound 4 was won by Wario/Snake...

 

[matt4300]

Uhh no actually Pound 4 was won by Wario/Snake...

My mistake... I could hardly watch the matches... Ally *****

 

[NinjaFoxX]

dis nigge is gey.

nerf him more plz.