Lucario+ (Aura Extraordinaire)

[A New England Winter]

dis nigge is gey.

nerf him more plz.

shut up, stop trolling. If you have nothing constructive or informative to say, get out.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

ok, then ill put it in a more less trolly post(granted i wasnt trolling in the first place).
seriously, im sure youve all gotten plenty complaints about this guy, there are still many things about this guy that needs work. i dont really care if hes top tier, just make a few more reasonable adjustments to him. i can always post examples but its just what everyone else has been saying to nerf this guy>.>

 

[Veril]

OK, before this turns ugly, since clearly nobody really understands Lucario's situation in Gold yet...

Lucario was nerfed directly in one key respect: his up-throw. This change was absolutely necessary and I have explained it in detail in this thread already. His other moveset saw minor adjustments (such as changing the f-smash from 361° to 45° as part of the general clean up of sakurai angles).

What will balance Lucario is the overall change in the pace of this game as dictated by new stage boundaries on all of the neutrals and many of the counterpick stages. The simple fact is, the primary reason Lucario was so bs in 6.0 (aside from the up-throw) was that he was able to survive to such incredibly high % by DIing vertically. This made his aura-boost extremely powerful, especially when he was played defensively. In Gold, Lucario will not have the luxury of surviving forever, and this is something you all WILL NOT REALIZE UNLESS YOU ACTUALLY ARE PLAYING!

Theorycrafting based on 6.0 survivability is pointless and annoying. I didn't directly nerf Lucario except in the area where I was given no choice. The stage and sakurai angle changes were not meant solely to nerf Lucario, BUT THEY DO.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

then i suppose ill have no more objections until i play him again in Gold myself.or i can always suck it up and learn more to the matchup. we'll see...

at least youre trying to do something about it...

 

[cobaltblue]

Learning the match up is all a part of playing the game...

 

[NinjaFoxX]

unless its useless like MK.(but im not calling Lucario+ MK vbrawl btw)

 

[A New England Winter]

That's very wrong mc, it's counter-productive to not learn the MU against a really good character. Learning the MU means you can take advantage of any weaknesses in your opponent's character (such as lag on moves, movement speed, moves you can punch through, etc.) or even in your opponent's play style (not doing things he could be, putting himself in unsafe situations, etc.). If you don't bother to learn these things, the meta-game never progresses and you have a forum filled with people whining about how cheap D3/GW/ROB/Ike/Lucario is.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

you probobly dont understand my viewpoint since i main a low tier in vBrawl, that being yoshi. at mid level i can beat most vB MKs, however, the higer i go, the worse the matchup gets(unlike IC, where the higher level the better the matchups get). where it starts out even, and slowly becomes 3:7 or worse.i could probably tell you theres not a Yoshi in the world that could compare to someone like M2K, granted there are few that can take on other really high level MKs and win(Bwett,Scatz,maybe pride cuz he beat DSF that one time?) you only hope to frustrate yourself in the end. you can learn any matchup and still john about it because its a real b*tch to play.

and you have to do this OVER 75% of you matches cuz that many people play MK(or whoever is top tier)(and i dont want to deal with another 75% of ppl playing Lucario unless hes like Melee Fox good where at least he can be countered)

 

[A New England Winter]

I don't care if the MU is difficult and it makes me think less of people if they use their character's status as a low tier as an excuse to whine about it being so. You have the ability to pick any character in the game, you chose to stick with one that never grew far enough to win, and after realizing this, instead of learning all you could and playing to the best of your ability, or picking up a secondary for those abhorrent MUs, you decided to stay in the ground and complain about a character you have a hard time with. This kind of attitude is why no one respects low tier mains.

In any fighting game ever since the dawn of fighting games, there has always been characters that were better, and characters that were worse, and that's how it will always be until the Earth withers away. People who play, in order to get anywhere in the game, have to recognize it will always be like that no matter what. There will always be Sagats, Eddies, Foxes, and MKs, and as such there will always be Vegas, Johnnys, Mewtwos and Yoshis.

The aspect that makes it fair is that the option to play the better characters opposed to the worse ones is available to everyone who plays it. When you pick a low tier, you are putting more burden on yourself than if you picked a high tier. Knowing this, you need to understand there will be situations you cannot always win, and you will have to find a way to deal with it. Some learn MUs, a lot pick up secondaries, but a lot give up and complain, or try to change the game to their liking.

My point is, in a competitive environment where players chose the best options available to them, there is no room for people who whine about their character not being good enough to compete. You have the option to play the better characters, just as anyone else does. If you don't want to do that, deal with the situation you have, learn everything you can, and become the best player you can possibly be. If that doesn't appeal to you either, then I'm sorry, but you're out of luck. There will always be a better option so long as there are multiple options, to pick the weaker one is not my problem, nor is it the problem of other players or the game itself, it's the problem you have to deal with.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

did i fail to mention i second ICs? with that in mind i know full well that without them, some MUs are just too hard. but even though i point such things out, or complain im not one to just give up. you're right there are other options, IC is my other option to deal with MK/Marth/GW at a high level, whether or not it works is up to me learning the match ups and playing my best. if my favorite characters are crappy then of course ill either play them, change characters or quit.

My point is, even in a competitive environment i don't wanna conform and just pick the best character, i wanna pick the character of my choice and become the best with them(like no one ever was..*shot*). and if i don't complain and point out the problems, i cant come up with the proper solution and get better right?

if my favorite character in a series is the best character in a game, then lucky me.

 

[Veril]

Oh the tier speech, I knew I'd see it eventually. What matters is that every character can win a high-level tournament, not that there are no tiers (which is impossible). The difference between the best and worst characters in brawl+ (and honestly nobody really knows who they are yet) is so much less than that of MK and Ganon, or Fox and Pichu (though melee balance was amazing by the standards of most fighters).


Lucario is overhyped. I think that in 6.0 he was clearly the best character, but in 7.0 the lowered KO% hurt Lucario more than any other character, and guess what stages that will be really obvious on? All of the starters. Just strike PSII against Lucario. That's the stage with the highest KO% out of the starters. He doesn't have his CG anymore, he got no buffs while many other characters, notably the terrible "Olympic tier" of Mario and Sonic.

Also, I absolutely refuse to believe Lucario is without counters.

 

[A New England Winter]

Lucario is easily countered by anyone who can rush him down and get in on him easily like Pikachu or MK, because he is slow and has no way to counteract fast moves, as I said before. He is also weak to characters like D3 and Marth who can kill him outright easily, or heavies who can kill him early and consistently while still being able to stay alive for a long time.

My opinion of his less-than-awesome MUs

-MK: Meta Knight is still really good, and is still able to **** with Lucario pretty hard. Lucario is not that hard to gimp considering his recovery does no damage while in motion, and with the shortening of the blast lines it ups MKs ability to straight kill Lucario not only has been supplemented, but his power offstage has been buffed as well. MK has all the tools to get Lucario offstage and put the pressure on him safely. Onstage, MK can rush Lucario down just as he could in vBrawl, and his range and priority is still a problem for Luc just as it was before.

-Dedede: Dedede's damage output is crazy, and his ability to kill at consistently low percents, combined with his heavy weight, make for a match up Lucario has issues dealing with. If D3 (or any heavy character really) gets the first kill, Lucario is dealing with a very uphill battle thanks to his aura. D3's Bair has always been a pain in Lucario's ***, and this didn't change in B+. It kills early and walls like a monster, and trades with most of Luc's own attacks. Granted, Lucario can juggle him really hard, but a campy D3 is incredibly difficult to approach for Lucario.

-Pikachu: A good Pikachu who can get in on Lucario can **** his day up for a long time. Lucario has a problem with getting juggled because of his size/floatiness, and while his fastfall has been buffed, Pikachu can keep him locked in hitstun for a very long time with uairs, QACs, fairs, grabs and thundershocks. Add to that Pika's ability to kill pretty easily and general overall speed, and you have an incredibly annoying opponent to deal with. Lucario can keep Pika out pretty well, but if Pika begins his rush, it's hard as hell to get out of it.

-Marth: Marth has always been an issue for Lucario, due to his ability to massively outrange and outspeed almost every option he has in every situation, his powerful, albeit predictable, onstage kill potential, and his incredible juggle and gimping games. These basic staples of Marth make up Lucario's game very closely, just that Marth does it better than Luc does.

Lucario's biggest weakness in general is getting the kill first. If he dies first against a fast opponent early, or against a heavy even at late percents, Lucario has a VERY hard time getting back the momentum of the match due to his strength dropping like a rock at 0%. Lucario has to be played intelligently against those kinds of matches, or risk losing everything.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Complaining about characters being "too good" =/= getting better. Pointing out your OWN weaknesses in order to build a better playstyle = getting better. If I beat you in a match, it's not my fault for being good, or my character's fault of being good, it's your fault of not playing well enough, or picking the right counter, or learning the match up, or any number of different scenarios. No character will ever have an answer to every other character in a balanced fighting game, and as detailed above, Lucario has exploitable weaknesses.

And for not wanting to conform to a competitive community by picking the best character, you are very much not playing to win, because you are choosing something you like rather than what wins. That's fine and it's okay to do so, and hell even if you do win at times more power to you, but you have to understand you are not doing all you can to achieve a victory, and to change a game around those preferences is going against the idea of competition. Balance is fine and good, and I'm happy they got rid of things about Lucario that threw a lot of MUs into the toilet of 70:30 or worse, but as it stands right now there is nothing broken about Lucario that warrants anymore nerfs.

 

[cobaltblue]

did i fail to mention i second ICs? with that in mind i know full well that without them, some MUs are just too hard. but even though i point such things out, or complain im not one to just give up. you're right there are other options, IC is my other option to deal with MK/Marth/GW at a high level, whether or not it works is up to me learning the match ups and playing my best. if my favorite characters are crappy then of course ill either play them, change characters or quit.

My point is, even in a competitive environment i don't wanna conform and just pick the best character, i wanna pick the character of my choice and become the best with them(like no one ever was..*shot*). and if i don't complain and point out the problems, i cant come up with the proper solution and get better right?

if my favorite character in a series is the best character in a game, then lucky me.

Only fools in competitive play don't learn MUs (that goes for 90:10 and 10:90 advantages)

Counter picking and learning charters that balance each others weakness is a part of competitive play in Brawl. If I go sonic/bowser than its my fault not the coders that I get rickrolled by Falco. The B+ team have done a good job (so far) of creating an environment where no character can stomp over the entire cast and instead a person who is great at 2 or 3 characters can advance far.

Now if you want to continue to become the best yoshi/IC player in the scene that is fine, but just expect to have problems when people pick characters that are extermly better than both of them.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

it would suck if both mains just get a curbstomped disavantage to the SAME character in B+(in vBrawl, Snake>both IC and Yoshi 70:30,but im not gonna crawl in fear when its time to fight a snake,if i can use Fox and beat a Pikachu, i can do this matchup too right?)

anyways, i trust the coders to take in opinions of the players and help them make a better game.(was gonna add more, but i cant think of it, im not good with WoTs)

 

[cobaltblue]

it would suck if both mains just get a curbstomped disavantage to the SAME character in B+(in vBrawl, Snake>both IC and Yoshi 70:30,but im not gonna crawl in fear when its time to fight a snake,if i can use Fox and beat a Pikachu, i can do this matchup too right?)

anyways, i trust the coders to take in opinions of the players and help them make a better game.(was gonna add more, but i cant think of it, im not good with WoTs)

Statics say there is no way around that. For example a person who mains bowser and lucario would get stomped hard by Marth. A sonic/bowser main has the same problem against jigglypuff.

I'm not trying to beat ya down as like I said a few posts ago, Lucario may turn out to be OP but the set is still too fresh to determine right now. Personally I think charaters like falco, snake, and marth will keep him down easy. Heavy hitters and speed characters not sonic or falcon will also give him problems as well.

 

[Veril]

My opinion of his less-than-awesome MUs

You definitely overestimate how well MK and Pikachu do against Lucario. I definitely agree on Marth and DDD, though I would add GW to that list as well. Its possible that without the up-throw CG that CF can do fairly well also.

In general I think people are still sore about 6.0 Lucario. 7.0's earlier KOs means he can't utilize aura to as great an effect. He doesn't have the CG, and Marth shuts him down more effectively than before.

Lucario is just the hot new thing. "shrug" "Practices combos on Lucario"

 

[iLink]

I'm kind of sad to see everyone think so highly of Lucario, I've always hated using the top tier characters and have everyone complain about said character.

That aside, I believe he does have a few counters. Marth is probably the biggest one that comes to mind.

I'm also starting to think Jiggs could give him some problems, she's really hard to hit and a rest combos really mess with him.

I think the spacies could give him a hard time if used properly.

 

[cobaltblue]

I gotta disagree on jiggs. Proper spacing on attacks allow lucario to keep jiggly out of his range. Rest is tricky for jiggly to land due to lucario's floatly nature. The main threat imo from jiggly is going to be the fact he flies circles around lucario and can brick wall lucario's recovery tactics.

 

[Veril]

Jiggs does not have an advantage on Lucario. At best its even.

The only characters I would not hesitate to say counter Lucario are Marth and DDD.

 

[_Keno_]

Complaining about characters being "too good" =/= getting better. Pointing out your OWN weaknesses in order to build a better playstyle = getting better. If I beat you in a match, it's not my fault for being good, or my character's fault of being good, it's your fault of not playing well enough, or picking the right counter, or learning the match up, or any number of different scenarios. No character will ever have an answer to every other character in a balanced fighting game, and as detailed above, Lucario has exploitable weaknesses.

And for not wanting to conform to a competitive community by picking the best character, you are very much not playing to win, because you are choosing something you like rather than what wins. That's fine and it's okay to do so, and hell even if you do win at times more power to you, but you have to understand you are not doing all you can to achieve a victory, and to change a game around those preferences is going against the idea of competition. Balance is fine and good, and I'm happy they got rid of things about Lucario that threw a lot of MUs into the toilet of 70:30 or worse, but as it stands right now there is nothing broken about Lucario that warrants anymore nerfs.

Someone is really sour for people wanting to nerf his OPed character... Probably because you are just too bad with him to realize how good he really is. I play daily with two lucario mains, and can tell you that if you can't combo every character from 0-70, cant recover high and use dair to beat out any edgeguarding attempts, or can be comboed to more than 30%, then you are doing it wrong.

And Marth is one of the few exceptions to the lucario matchup, but that is not even as awful as half the cast's matchups are with lucario.

Also, lucario is impossible to catch (with a lot of characters) after the two-up-b's from the ground update. Why does that even exist...

 

[KOkingpin]

Ok I have beef with Aura in B+. It was really nifty in vBrawl. It let Lucario be different from other characters and combo and be a really neat character in a really lame system. In Brawl+ its overkill. Aura is probably the only cause for Lucario to be so far ahead of the rest of the cast. I'm not saying just take it out but you should really look into what would happen if lucario was set to like level 2 aura and it just stayed there maybe level 3 cause I think Kirby get auto level 2 Aura.

Marth with double fair really does wonders against lucario. DDD i dunno about that with Bair nerf.

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, Lucario can't benefit from aura as much anymore, since he dies earlier due to smaller boundaries.

 

[goodoldganon]

Someone is really sour for people wanting to nerf his OPed character... Probably because you are just too bad with him to realize how good he really is. I play daily with two lucario mains, and can tell you that if you can't combo every character from 0-70, cant recover high and use dair to beat out any edgeguarding attempts, or can be comboed to more than 30%, then you are doing it wrong.

And Marth is one of the few exceptions to the lucario matchup, but that is not even as awful as half the cast's matchups are with lucario.

Also, lucario is impossible to catch (with a lot of characters) after the two-up-b's from the ground update. Why does that even exist...

Though calling Veril bad was a stupid idea I really do agree with this post. Certain characters have some bad or near unwinnable matchups but it seems like Lucario is more people's worst or one of their worst matchups then any other character. I understand he is (supposedly) worse since the boundaries got smaller but I don't know.

Fact is Lucario is how he is for better or worse for the rest of Brawl+. He still isn't in the same league of **** that vBrawl MK is so he is at least beatable. Our best bet now is to form counter strats. Hopefully with more experience those of us that hate him will be at least able to fight him.

P.S. Aura stock is still and always will be the dumbest thing in the world. Rewarding a player for doing poorly in a fighting game is asinine.

 

[Veril]

When did I get called bad here (and in what context). I would expect that sort of thing in some character specific threads but not this one ;p

The fact is that there are a bunch of characters people are going to John about, and Lucario is just the favorite currently. Zelda/Sheik (both, not just one), Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Marth, GW, Lucario, Olimar, Bowser, Ike (srs) etc etc etc are all gonna be Johned about extensively, as is the way of this community in general. Lucario isn't substantially better than the rest of the cast, or even necessarily the best character, in the Gold set.


Pro-tip: Get a secondary. Brawl+ is chock full of soft counters, and possible hard counters.

Ex: Jiggs is amazing but gets ***** by Falcon (especially in 7.0).
Lucario is countered by Marth. I can't even comment on half of the casts matchups against him because so few people are seriously playing at a high level in this game. If I were to guess characters that "might" do well against Lucario I would add Olimar, Zelda/Sheik, Bowser, Snake, diddy Kong, Captain Falcon, and Pikachu.

Pro-tip #2: Johning about the matchup won't make it any better. Working on understanding the matchup will. I switched mains to Lucas, and even though I can't see Lucas being a Lucario counter, I AM NOT AFRAID OF LUCARIO. Why? I've spent the time figuring out exactly how to combo lucario, and the best ways to kill him as early as possible with my main. If I get a low% grab on lucario he's gonna lose a third of his stock. I know what I can do out of SHFFl fair and up-air. At higher %, I know exactly what can happen if I land a d-tilt. I also know what Lucario can do to Lucas and figured out the optimal SDI to escape his strings.

Lucario is only terrifying if you are unprepared. Ever since Pound 4 I've been studying this f***er. And I made 7.0 with a managable Lucario in mind, without nerfing him directly except in the one way I absolutely had to (up-throw). You can beat Lucario. Just put the work in.

 

[_Keno_]

I dont actually hate lucario, I know that he can be beaten more easily than MK/Fox, and can be counter-picked, but I would rather (just an opinion) see this game more balanced than it currently is. Having a counterpick doesn't make a character balanced.

And isn't brawl+ (partially) about having balanced-ish enjoyable characters? I wouldn't mind if you add things to lucario (to partially balance any losses) as long as you take certain things away. Making him an into average character shouldn't be such a taboo...

 

[matt4300]

I dont actually hate lucario, I know that he can be beaten more easily than MK/Fox, and can be counter-picked, but I would rather (just an opinion) see this game more balanced than it currently is. Having a counterpick doesn't make a character balanced.

And isn't brawl+ (partially) about having balanced-ish enjoyable characters? I wouldn't mind if you add things to lucario (to partially balance any losses) as long as you take certain things away. Making him an into average character shouldn't be such a taboo...

You don't hate lucario becuase you play peach. Its just about impossible to gimp/combo you.
Your right though. The problem with lucario isn't that hes good like yoshi, wolf, marth... It's that he DOESNT HAVE WEAKNESSES. Don't call his aura a weakness becuase everything it takes away it gives back. He has crazy range, stupid speed, insane preasure (stupid up-b) camping, one of the best recoverys in the game, stupid good gimp game, can barley be comboed, Combos most chars so hard they can't get out till 50 60 70 percent, is pretty heavy, has a disgusting combo breaker/edgegaurd (dair), great throw game, comboable kill moves. Not only that he gets better the worse you do.

Hes a blight on the otherwise great balance in +. Give me another character with anywhere near this many up-sides with no downsides, and I will never say anything about him again.

Anyway... Can you guys start matchups? We have a finished set. I would really like to see what charas I can use to counter him. (I'm not about to pick up marth)

Without going into details because I don't have time right now... My mains...

Link: 40/60 -lucario
Bowser: 35/65- lucario
samus: 45/55- lucario
Mario: 20/80

 

[KOkingpin]

P.S. Aura stock is still and always will be the dumbest thing in the world. Rewarding a player for doing poorly in a fighting game is asinine.

qft

aura is so dumb for brawl+ just sayin.

 

[cobaltblue]

Hmm I wonder who the next char to be complained about will be next if Lucario does get touched? Snake? Jiggly? Falco?

 

[_Keno_]

I know I won't complain about anyone else, unless there are ridiculous buffs. Its not like we don't have a reason to complain and are doing it just for the sake of doing it.
Tennessee (and hopefully the northern half of AL soon) is pure B+. We aren't just random noobs complaining, we take the games we enjoy seriously.

 

[matt4300]

Hmm I wonder who the next char to be complained about will be next if Lucario does get touched? Snake? Jiggly? Falco?

lol... Samus ****s falco... Link ****s jiggs.... Bowser, link, and samus **** snake...

 

[TL?]

Lucario isn't OP. Pick a character that is fast or that can outcamp him.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

this pretty much.

 

[KOkingpin]

I dont think Lucario is really OP I think I know how to beat him actually now.

But aura is just stupid. WHY DO YOU LET NINTENDO HAVE THEIR WAY?!?!?! "lets lose some more so we can win" Does that make sense to you? Doesnt to me unless im playing Lucario. Getting a boost for being a stock down is sooooo freaking ********. Aura isnt needed in Brawl+.

 

[A New England Winter]

P.S. Aura stock is still and always will be the dumbest thing in the world. Rewarding a player for doing poorly in a fighting game is asinine.

I agree with this, actually. I never liked Aura Boosts, it made me have to wait until I was high damage to be able to kill ever. I'd personally prefer if he was always at ~80% or less damage/kb potential, with no fluxes whatsoever, but I know plenty of people would ***** about that.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

^then let them?

at this point, its really the only glaring flaw left in lucario i see thats gonna keep tons of people to johning all dai.

 

[cobaltblue]

I know I won't complain about anyone else, unless there are ridiculous buffs. Its not like we don't have a reason to complain and are doing it just for the sake of doing it.
Tennessee (and hopefully the northern half of AL soon) is pure B+. We aren't just random noobs complaining, we take the games we enjoy seriously.

Really now? I live in the huntsville, AL area but can't seem to find B+ places to save my life ><. Never see much ramblings in the region board either about any major get togethers.

LoL at the pic matt. Anyways on topic I can agree that the boost from being down a stock shouldn't be in place, but the power boost in his attacks should remain at their current cap (I think its about 200% when all of his moves are at full power).

 

[_Keno_]

Really now? I live in the huntsville, AL area but can't seem to find B+ places to save my life ><. Never see much ramblings in the region board either about any major get togethers.

Hmm, really? I know that most people from ~birmingham and above that play brawl competitively would rather play brawl+ competitively (thanks to matt and KO's group). Our last brawl tournament had 150% more brawl+ players than vbrawl. I'll see if Zero or others would be willing to hold brawl+ tournies and get you to some of them.

 

[matt4300]

Really now? I live in the huntsville, AL area but can't seem to find B+ places to save my life ><. Never see much ramblings in the region board either about any major get togethers.

LoL at the pic matt. Anyways on topic I can agree that the boost from being down a stock shouldn't be in place, but the power boost in his attacks should remain at their current cap (I think its about 200% when all of his moves are at full power).

Yeh man... You should come down to Birmingham for Zeros next tourney, and get ***** hard by our 2 lucarios. The reason you haven't heard much about + tourneys is that I just started to get everyone around here into + like 3 months ago. So far everyone I have gotten to try it would rather play it than vbrawl. Wich is probley why our last tourney had mostly brawl+ entrants.

Seriously matchups? Anyone.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

you also have me too~ xD

my last tourney ended up being just +

 

[A New England Winter]

That Mario put himself in that position. No one told him to jump off stage for a fancy gimp. He could've just grabbed the ledge, which at that low of an angle would've gimped Lucario by itself, or at least put him in a ****ty position.

Just sayin.