Lucario+ (Aura Extraordinaire)

[Mr.Pickle]

Lol true but the lucario could still recover if he aimed for the part of the stage that allows him to stick to it, then he could just simply wall jump back onto the stage. Anyway enough of this silliness how do guys think ganondorf does against lucario, I need to learn this match-up better since he seems to be getting popular.

 

[shanus]

That Mario put himself in that position. No one told him to jump off stage for a fancy gimp. He could've just grabbed the ledge, which at that low of an angle would've gimped Lucario by itself, or at least put him in a ****ty position.

Just sayin.

No its a stupid bug in brawl where hitboxless upBs when hit reset their la-bit61 reallowing use of upB again.

 

[_Keno_]

Thanks for completely missing the point, Xaoz. lol

And don't fox's lasers give snake back his up-b?

 

[A New England Winter]

No, I'm saying instead of going out for a gimp/cape/whatever the ****, he could've done something, you know, safer. Like grab the ledge. Or wait for Luc to grab the ledge and punish his get up. Or any number of things you'd normally do. It's really not that complex.

 

[matt4300]

No its a stupid bug in brawl where hitboxless upBs when hit reset their la-bit61 reallowing use of upB again.

Thank you shannus. This is what I was getting at, and the fact that lucario can insta giant hitbox the ledge out of his upB to prevent half of the recoverys in the game from working while killing the recovering opponent. With absolutely no risk of lucario being gimped like in a normal ledge fight.

Just because mario could have done something eles doesn't make it ok for lucario to have a get out of gimp free card against one of marios best moves. Mario already has a near unwinnable matchup against lucario. Capeing the opponent is not trying to be fancy Its a guranteed stock on most chars if you hit up-bs with it.

No, I'm saying instead of going out for a gimp/cape/whatever the ****, he could've done something, you know, safer. Like grab the ledge. Or wait for Luc to grab the ledge and punish his get up. Or any number of things you'd normally do. It's really not that complex.

Mario relys on mostly gimps. Grabing the ledge agaisnt lucario puts you in a very bad position, and lucario doesnt grab the ledge. He recovers high and punishes any advances with a dair. What you do normally doesn't work on lucario. He makes things complex.
Do you really play lucario?

 

[cobaltblue]

Lol true but the lucario could still recover if he aimed for the part of the stage that allows him to stick to it, then he could just simply wall jump back onto the stage. Anyway enough of this silliness how do guys think ganondorf does against lucario, I need to learn this match-up better since he seems to be getting popular.

Chances are good that if lucario attempted that he'd hit the ledge and go into free instead based on that pic. Although I think the mario still would have been screwed as 90 degree turned up b from that distance would have allowed lucario to dair stall while mario was in his get up animation and from there either hit mario or double jump to safety.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Maybe, but its kinda hard to tell since the pic is so crappy....its not meant to be taken as seriously as this lol.

 

[Veril]

That picture is great lol. ;p

All this Lucario hate is a little bit excessive.

 

[Rayku]

You guys complain a lot. I remember when I said Ganondorf was overpowered all I got was a "No he's not" and everyone ignored me.

I second what Veril said. All the hate is excessive and unnecessary.

 

[A New England Winter]

Mario relys on mostly gimps. Grabing the ledge agaisnt lucario puts you in a very bad position, and lucario doesnt grab the ledge. He recovers high and punishes any advances with a dair. What you do normally doesn't work on lucario. He makes things complex.
Do you really play lucario?

I'm sorry, I was just saying, you know, how IN THAT SITUATION Lucario is so ****ing low and recovering at such a ****ty angle that Mario could've grabbed the ledge and waited out Lucario IN THAT SITUATION where he's so low, and if need be maybe hit him out of his UpB (probably with BAir), for at the very least free damage and putting Lucario back in a bad situation, and at best outright killing him depending on percent/stage boundary, instead of using Cape. Even if he DIs that, he's still in a crappy position and might be forced to use his second jump, again dependent on percent/boundaries/DI/If I can wallcling on that particular stage.

He punishes low approaches with a Dair, yes. But unless you keep running at him at the same angle under him going for the same stupid **** over and over again there's no reason for you to ever get hit by it more than a few times. You have predict he's going to DAir, because he's predicting you're going to attack him from a punishable angle. This is an aspect of EVERY FIGHTING GAME EVER, the idea of countering your opponent's counter to your action. It's the basis of mindgames and yomi, or reading your opponents mind.

For example, say I recover high on Battlefield, as I should with Lucario, and I see you on a platform below me while I'm doing so. I would venture a guess that you'd probably want to hit me somehow. I see you're mostly below me, so I decide to DAir. You, knowing the MU and the basics of a Lucario player's playstyle, would probably be able to guess I'm going to DAir, so you decide to jump to my side instead of directly below me, avoiding the DAir hitbox and counterattacking with your move of choice, probably NAir or BAir. Now let's say that same situation happens again, but I know you know I'd try a BAir. However, I also understand you could also approach me from below if I try to FAir/NAir/whatever to catch you at my side. Also, the option to simply wait me out if I airdodge is also in my head, as well as you even waiting for me to DAir near the ground and counterattacking THAT with something (pivot grab/Dash-in USmash/spotdodge into stuff/stutter-step FSmash/etc.). With all of these variable counters in my head, I have to be careful not to pick the wrong choice in this situation so as to not get punished.

There are tons of situations like this that pop up all the time, that people take for granted because of really good options that have limited weakness. HOWEVER, it is YOUR JOB as the player is to find the weaknesses and exploit them. If the Lucario player always recovers the same way, find a way to punish it. If he frequently DAirs, STOP RUNNING INTO IT and think of ways to get around it.

But of course I know you're going to say "well you can't always predict your opponent," and I'm going to say, "of course, if he isn't ****ing ********." How about the "my character relies on gimping for kills" statement, where I say "well if I know your character is reliant on gimping, I'm gonna do my ****edest to avoid getting in a situation where I could get gimped." If your character's kill potential is so one dimensional that you have no realistic options but to gimp, then that's his and your problem, not mine or Lucario's. If anything you should whine about buffs for onstage killing.

Goddammit another wall of text >_>

I wish we could stop arguing about this once and for all

 

[ZeonStar]

Only thing I see wrong about lucario at the moment is his double UPB, otherwise he seems fine to me.

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

I never knew that Lucario could Aura Sphere cancel...

 

[cobaltblue]

But of course I know you're going to say "well you can't always predict your opponent," and I'm going to say, "of course, if he isn't ****ing ********." How about the "my character relies on gimping for kills" statement, where I say "well if I know your character is reliant on gimping, I'm gonna do my ****edest to avoid getting in a situation where I could get gimped." If your character's kill potential is so one dimensional that you have no realistic options but to gimp, then that's his and your problem, not mine or Lucario's. If anything you should whine about buffs for onstage killing.

Goddammit another wall of text >_>

I wish we could stop arguing about this once and for all

I couldn't help but lawl at this part because gimping being the only surefire way to kill has been the problem Sonic mains have been dealing with for years now. Maybe thats why I have such a hard time seeing the over powered complaints here?

 

[Rayku]

Zeon the only thing the double upB can even be somewhat viable against is Snake and Wario. Otherwise no one's going to get that high anyway

 

[ZeonStar]

Zeon the only thing the double upB can even be somewhat viable against is Snake and Wario. Otherwise no one's going to get that high anyway

Im just saying, it shouldn't be there. The fact that he can retreat twice across the stage with upb is just kind of dumb. Or even the fact that he can do it, its just stupid. It wasnt intended and is craycray.

 

[GHNeko]

No its a stupid bug in brawl where hitboxless upBs when hit reset their la-bit61 reallowing use of upB again.

Can we fix this please? Veril? Or attempt to fix this? It's extremely dumb, and all the characters that are affected by this other than Mario generally have multiple ways and/or non-linear ways of getting back to the stage.

It's really really dumb.

 

[ZeonStar]

Can we fix this please? Veril? Or attempt to fix this? It's extremely dumb, and all the characters that are affected by this other than Mario generally have multiple ways and/or non-linear ways of getting back to the stage.

It's really really dumb.

I agree, this should be looked into.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Can we fix this please? Veril? Or attempt to fix this? It's extremely dumb, and all the characters that are affected by this other than Mario generally have multiple ways and/or non-linear ways of getting back to the stage.

It's really really dumb.

yes, please look into this.

 

[Rayku]

Well, no skin off my bones if it gets 'fixed'

Oh and can we fix Jigglypuff's recovery it's non-linear therefore it's broken

 

[Zero_Gamer]

His recovery, from what I've experienced, is virtually unpunishable.

Lucario can stall excessively by double UpB'ing all over the stage.

He can also knock you off the stage, UpB toward you, combo, double jump, kill, and UpB back.

 

[GHNeko]

That's not stalling. That's running away.

And I know MK, and Pit, and Zard, can knock you off stage, combo, multi jump, kill, and jump/up B back. :V

Or Falcon/Ganon can knock you off stage Down B towards you, combo, double jump, kill, and up B back. V:

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Lucario is better than all of them in this area. :x

And if running away/air camping isn't "camping", then what is?

Edit: Honestly, I'm not sure how Lucario can be balanced. His recovery is just one part of his other, more concerning, features. The system of Brawl+ itself seems to favor Lucario very well.

 

[GHNeko]

My point was is that they can do the same thing that Lucario can do IE chase people off stage, gimp/kill, and recover which is basically all that **** is.


and MK/Pit are better than Lucario overall in that area, albeit slower getting there.

And there is a difference between running away, camping, and stalling. :V

There is nothing wrong with running or camping because it can be beaten.

Stalling normally can't too, but it's banned anyway because you're actively rendering physical confrontation neigh impossible (like Sonic HA spam under a stage).

 

[iLink]

His recovery, from what I've experienced, is virtually unpunishable.

Give me a situation where it's unpunishable.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

All of them. >.> lol, but seriously, it is pretty darn good just curving around danger and still having the option of airdodging/attacking.

 

[iLink]

All of them. >.> lol, but seriously, it is pretty darn good just curving around danger and still having the option of airdodging/attacking.

I'm just asking for one

 

[_Keno_]

I'm just asking for one

How exactly would we go about describing a situation? Would you like a video or a picture?

And for the record, Zero_Gamer mains Lucario.

I have a good situation in mind I can draw, but it will have to wait until after I get home.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

how about that lolmario example up there?

 

[iLink]

Is it really that hard to describe an example?

Also regarding that example with mario, besides the fact that Lucario can't snap to the ledge causing him to fall to his doom, lets say it was perfectly spaced to grab the ledge at the end. Couldn't mario like... I dunno nair instead of cape? I do think him getting his upb back after the cape is pretty dumb though.

The fact that he can attack/airdodge out of his recovery doesn't make it OMGTOOGOOD. Can't other characters do that? Like... Jigglypuff, Snake, Yoshi, MK, etc.

 

[matt4300]

Yeh, and Snake/metaknight got heavy nerfs and yoshi/jiggly are 2 of the most beastly chars in the game.

We should really rec. Zero and Derps matches and I would really like to see rayku (spelling?) 's matches. Because lucario can do some of the stupidest **** in smash I have ever seen. It may not be as flashey as Fox in melee, but atleast he had weaknesses like lots of hitstun and a very gimpable recovery. Lucario gets away with haveing good everything.

But, seriously next time I'm at zeros I'm gonna get some replays. I really wanna see raykus lucario, and what KOkingpin can do against it.

Theres a difference between chars who DESTROY half the cast, but get DESTROYED by they other half like zelda, and chars like luigi and lucario who you only ever need a second for 1 or 2 matches (lol marth). Haveing a bunch of really onesided matchups is fine aslong as around half of them are bad.

What Veril has been saying is true though... Lucario is just the hot topic right now for being OP.. There are other pretty majorly stupid characters like luigi, olimar, pika, and G&W's Nair (lol) I don't think thoses chars are up to lucarios gayness (mabye luigi?) but they are still probley too good to say they're balanced well.

So to those who call OP and those who defend him... We need your vids! Being a hacked game there can always be patches. We need to take the next 6 months to gather info and evidence to make a case on this cheap blue basterd. We don't really need to do it on this thread though. As good as it feels to vent about him.

 

[RiteToRmnSilent]

Yeh, and Snake/metaknight got heavy nerfs and yoshi/jiggly are 2 of the most beastly chars in the game.

We should really rec. Zero and Derps matches and I would really like to see rayku (spelling?) 's matches. Because lucario can do some of the stupidest **** in smash I have ever seen. It may not be as flashey as Fox in melee, but atleast he had weaknesses like lots of hitstun and a very gimpable recovery. Lucario gets away with haveing good everything.

But, seriously next time I'm at zeros I'm gonna get some replays. I really wanna see raykus lucario, and what KOkingpin can do against it.

Theres a difference between chars who DESTROY half the cast, but get DESTROYED by they other half like zelda, and chars like luigi and lucario who you only ever need a second for 1 or 2 matches (lol marth). Haveing a bunch of really onesided matchups is fine aslong as around half of them are bad.

What Veril has been saying is true though... Lucario is just the hot topic right now for being OP.. There are other pretty majorly stupid characters like luigi, olimar, pika, and G&W's Nair (lol) I don't think thoses chars are up to lucarios gayness (mabye luigi?) but they are still probley too good to say they're balanced well.

So to those who call OP and those who defend him... We need your vids! Being a hacked game there can always be patches. We need to take the next 6 months to gather info and evidence to make a case on this cheap blue basterd. We don't really need to do it on this thread though. As good as it feels to vent about him.

Luigi's been nerfed(I would know, hes one of my mains)...along with the other characters you said. They also have very noticable and exploitable weaknesses. Lucario doesn't seem to have any real exploitable weaknesses and he hasn't really seen a nerf, hes actually been buffed. That's the arguement and that's why hes seeing so much attention...simple as that.

 

[cobaltblue]

Lucario is slow. Why does no one use this weakness? Even with double up b he can only do so much to get around projectiles or characters made to attack from a distance/space.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

^thats kinda why marth counters him, along with the pro spacing/zoning a good marth has.

so hes beatable, just not a fun thing to play alot imo

 

[goodoldganon]

I've had good luck with Samus and Wolf. Samus has z-air and missiles to pester Lucario all day with and when she gets caught you can spam bombs to reset out. She also has decent range on some of her attacks. At worst the match is even for Samus or at best I'd say 55-45. Though Wolf's blaster isn't great it is certainly usable to pester and he has the best reflector to shut down his aura spam game. Back air has stupid range and is horribly spammable. Try those two out guys, I think you'll be surprised. Lucario might be a stupid character, the best character, and might do too well against too many characters but he does have character who give him a good run. I don't think Lucario has any unwinnable matchups though like every other character seems to have one.

 

[KOkingpin]

I've had good luck with Samus and Wolf. Samus has z-air and missiles to pester Lucario all day with and when she gets caught you can spam bombs to reset out. She also has decent range on some of her attacks. At worst the match is even for Samus or at best I'd say 55-45. Though Wolf's blaster isn't great it is certainly usable to pester and he has the best reflector to shut down his aura spam game. Back air has stupid range and is horribly spammable. Try those two out guys, I think you'll be surprised. Lucario might be a stupid character, the best character, and might do too well against too many characters but he does have character who give him a good run. I don't think Lucario has any unwinnable matchups though like every other character seems to have one.

samus is def not even with lucario. all you can do is space with zair and when he gets in its pretty much game over. Now Wolf on the other hand can wreck him on stage but if lucario gets him off stage its almost always a death

Yoshi is actually a really good match up for Lucario. I just have to play a lot less stupid and be less aggressive.

Luigi's been nerfed(I would know, hes one of my mains)...along with the other characters you said. They also have very noticable and exploitable weaknesses. Lucario doesn't seem to have any real exploitable weaknesses and he hasn't really seen a nerf, hes actually been buffed. That's the arguement and that's why hes seeing so much attention...simple as that.

yeah lucario was legit in vbrawl and now he just gets more buffs.

 

[iLink]

Samus vs Lucario is pretty much in Lucario's favor. Sure it might be a bit hard to get past all those zairs and missiles, but samus is even slower then Lucario so he can do a lot of damage as soon as he gets in.

I would also say Yoshi vs Lucario is also in Lucario's favor. Yoshi soundly beats out Lucario on the ground but the matchup can get pretty bad for Yoshi if he stays in the air for most of the match.

I can say Wolf is rather silly to deal with just because of his Bair. It's just fast and has nice range and Lucario can't really deal well with it. Not to mention the reflector means you can't just throw out random auraspheres.

I would say characters that are moderately fast and have a fast reliable attack can give Lucario a hard time getting in.

 

[cobaltblue]

How about the Links? T. Link seems like he would decent enough given his speed, decent recovery, bair combos, and projectiles.

Snake seems legit as well with his stupidly good moves.

Ganon imo could go back and forth depending on who gets momentum.

 

[GHNeko]

Lucario > ganon. Like


There is just so much Lucario can do to ganon now. It's not even funny.

 

[iLink]

Lucario beats out ganon by a good margin.

Toon link might actually go even with Lucario.

I can't say much for Snake considering I haven't played anyone that I think has used him to a decent degree.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ask Ally for the Snake v Lucario.

I think you guys are selling Ganon short. Literally one mistake and it can easily be a stock. You come down at KO percentage and Ganon will never let you build a decent aura. Any non flat stage and I think it might be close to even or slightly in Lucario's favor. It's not a landslide though by any margin.