Low Tiers and The Tournament Scene

[Levitas]

Except Sheik doesn't have problems killing so I have no clue why you would even bring that up.

I don't know if I can agree with that.

 

[XavantTheEnigma]

IF I DONT HAVE PROBLEMS KILLING THEN WHY DOESN'T THE STOCKS GO DOWNn!?!?!

 

[Yuna]

what are you talking about?
1. i wasn't even responding to bentobox. i was responding to rickedy-doo-da-day/

No, you were responding to me seeing as how you quoted me and responded to what I had said.

I said some things. Ricky accused me of saying other things entirely. I told him to quote me where I said those things since I'd never said them. You quoted me in order to prove entirely different things which I had never denied at all and then strawmanned Ricky's argument in order to "win" over me.

When I told you that nowhere in those quotes did you prove I said any of the things Ricky had claimed I said, I wasn't accusing you of claiming something - I was criticizing you for failing to do what was actually asked of you. Instead you strawmanned two different people in order to prove an entirely different point neither person had brought up as a talking point.

Wait wah? The only post I directed towards you, Yuna, was concerning Drk.Peach's influence in our matchup discussions. o,o

Sorry. Of course I meant Rickerdy-doo-da-day.

 

[Gindler]

I don't really know why this alone would be a reason to make someone viable. At any rate, I think that it's not only that, but his abilities are more manageable against the cast than other lower characters.


Then again, it's my opinion >_>

Yeah his matchups vs. tier list placing is a very strange ratio....

Squirtle has as much trouble killing as Sheik. Char kills more easily, is heavier, has a better recovery, has grab release shenanigans, useful b-moves, range... I like Char better yeah, but to each his own.

Squirtle's only real good kill move is his Dthrow, it's like a dubbed down Ness Bthrow. I just hate zard since he's combo bait, my favs still Ivy, projectile that goes through everything, bullet seed, tipper vine whipe, and people sidestepping right into an Usmash (because it's slow and throws some people off) is just too good. Great camper too, I just love IVY

 

[Swordplay]

There's a disconnect from Willpower and ignorance. Willpower, is having the strength and the perseverance to win a tournament. Ignorance is believing that a character with so many disadvantages can win a tournament. Do you really think that Link will win a major tournament? Really? I bet you one million dollars that he won't. For five years. Go ahead, keep me to it. Or become an Anime kid and, "Prove me wrong, Oniii-channnn."

LoL your right.

Link will never win a tournament. He has a disadvantage in every single matchup. Even Captain Falcon can beat Link and Captain Falcon is a joke.

To top it off, Link mains don't go to SWF anymore so even if they did win a tourney you'd never hear about it.

Fortunately, I value fun more than winning so I'll stick with Link and loosing.



Low and mid tiers have a chance. Players like Kirk can win with Ike just by using skill.

But Trash characters have no chance. Best Link placing right now is in Europe by Izaw but you all should know the metagame is different there. Links such as Legan and Deva have come close by using just skill but trash characters are just so limited and there is no way around it.

So if you main a low/mid tier, you have a shot. If you main a Trash tier. Your only chance is small tournaments. I hope your playing for fun and not to win because you won't. (At least not at the large tournaments)


What I hate is people disregard the people who choose to main low tier characters because they like them. If My Link ccan take on your MK and we can almost go even than that says something even if I loose. Chances are I'm probably a better player than you and I'd prove it if I choose to pick another character but I won't because I love Link.

Yuna is right in some sense, it is about what you do with that character, However you must also respect the player IF he overcomes his characters short comings and realize that if he is going even with you with a trash character, He'd probably kick your *** with a real character.

I'm going to reference Yuna now and although he didn't express this view directly this is how I interpreted it.

So whatever bull**** Yuna spurts out about if your MK beats my Link in a very close match makes the MK a better player is bull****. It just means the MK player won a matchup in which he has a huge advantage in. If I pick a character like Yoshi or snake now, that matchup advantage becomes much less and chances are If I went even at a 20:80 matchup, I'll probably kick your *** down the street at a 40:60-50:50. That's my experience at least.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

No, you were responding to me seeing as how you quoted me and responded to what I had said.

I said some things. Ricky accused me of saying other things entirely. I told him to quote me where I said those things since I'd never said them. You quoted me in order to prove entirely different things which I had never denied at all and then strawmanned Ricky's argument in order to "win" over me.

When I told you that nowhere in those quotes did you prove I said any of the things Ricky had claimed I said, I wasn't accusing you of claiming something - I was criticizing you for failing to do what was actually asked of you. Instead you strawmanned two different people in order to prove an entirely different point neither person had brought up as a talking point.


Sorry. Of course I meant Rickerdy-doo-da-day.

I already apologised earlier for mis reading your posts

Seriously, lets get off the subject of Peach - she's not one of the lowest characters on the tier list

 

[kackamee]

LoL your right.

Link will never win a tournament. He has a disadvantage in every single matchup. Even Captain Falcon can beat Link and Captain Falcon is a joke.

To top it off, Link mains don't go to SWF anymore so even if they did win a tourney you'd never hear about it.

Fortunately, I value fun more than winning so I'll stick with Link and loosing.



Low and mid tiers have a chance. Players like Kirk can win with Ike just by using skill.

But Trash characters have no chance. Best Link placing right now is in Europe by Izaw but you all should know the metagame is different there. Links such as Legan and Deva have come close by using just skill but trash characters are just so limited and there is no way around it.

So if you main a low/mid tier, you have a shot. If you main a Trash tier. Your only chance is small tournaments. I hope your playing for fun and not to win because you won't. (At least not at the large tournaments)


What I hate is people disregard the people who choose to main low tier characters because they like them. If My Link ccan take on your MK and we can almost go even than that says something even if I loose. Chances are I'm probably a better player than you and I'd prove it if I choose to pick another character but I won't because I love Link.

Yuna is right in some sense, it is about what you do with that character, However you must also respect the player IF he overcomes his characters short comings and realize that if he is going even with you with a trash character, He'd probably kick your *** with a real character.

I'm going to reference Yuna now and although he didn't express this view directly this is how I interpreted it.

So whatever bull**** Yuna spurts out about if your MK beats my Link in a very close match makes the MK a better player is bull****. It just means the MK player won a matchup in which he has a huge advantage in. If I pick a character like Yoshi or snake now, that matchup advantage becomes much less and chances are If I went even at a 20:80 matchup, I'll probably kick your *** down the street at a 40:60-50:50. That's my experience at least.

Iz must dissagree...There was a tourney once upon a time (i can't remember the name) but King 3000 ( or some other sonic main) Place 3rd outta the top like 7 of only snakes and MKs.

 

[Nixernator]

That was Mr 3000 but Sonic isn't trash tier, that's reserved for Link, CF? and jiggs.

 

[GimR]

Why do you guys care what the Smash BR thinks? If they don't understand how good your character is that's their problem. I'd say it's even better that they underestimate you so you can destroy people in tourney who think they're gonna win just because you play low tier.

 

[Kinzer]

The WCD: Sonic is a good example of the fallacies they will spread around if they don't understand a d*** thing about something and won't admit it.

Now we probably get some n00bs/pros alike giving us trouble like how DTilt ruins us (granted we formed it into a joke but it was just stupid it ever came to life and in a serious tone in the first place).

I just rather not go through the trouble of having to teach/reteach people of something different... At least if they're learning, say of course I wouldn't tell this to my tourney opponents before the match so I could win, but you know... >.>

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Yeah his matchups vs. tier list placing is a very strange ratio....



Squirtle's only real good kill move is his Dthrow, it's like a dubbed down Ness Bthrow. I just hate zard since he's combo bait, my favs still Ivy, projectile that goes through everything, bullet seed, tipper vine whipe, and people sidestepping right into an Usmash (because it's slow and throws some people off) is just too good. Great camper too, I just love IVY

Take it from me,My squirtle does not rack up killd,but perpares them to be served for the kill.Dthrow gives Squirtle a free switch.Also,have you ever heard of Foward Hydroplanning?

 

[Oracle]

LoL your right.

Link will never win a tournament. He has a disadvantage in every single matchup. Even Captain Falcon can beat Link and Captain Falcon is a joke.

To top it off, Link mains don't go to SWF anymore so even if they did win a tourney you'd never hear about it.

Fortunately, I value fun more than winning so I'll stick with Link and loosing.



Low and mid tiers have a chance. Players like Kirk can win with Ike just by using skill.

But Trash characters have no chance. Best Link placing right now is in Europe by Izaw but you all should know the metagame is different there. Links such as Legan and Deva have come close by using just skill but trash characters are just so limited and there is no way around it.

So if you main a low/mid tier, you have a shot. If you main a Trash tier. Your only chance is small tournaments. I hope your playing for fun and not to win because you won't. (At least not at the large tournaments)


What I hate is people disregard the people who choose to main low tier characters because they like them. If My Link ccan take on your MK and we can almost go even than that says something even if I loose. Chances are I'm probably a better player than you and I'd prove it if I choose to pick another character but I won't because I love Link.

Yuna is right in some sense, it is about what you do with that character, However you must also respect the player IF he overcomes his characters short comings and realize that if he is going even with you with a trash character, He'd probably kick your *** with a real character.

No one cares if you like maining link. Here, we play to win, not to have fun (even though we all have fun playing to win). When you have money on the line or your reputation to uphold, frankly, its really stupid to play link, especially if the opponent is someone like MK.

I'm going to reference Yuna now and although he didn't express this view directly this is how I interpreted it.

So whatever bull**** Yuna spurts out about if your MK beats my Link in a very close match makes the MK a better player is bull****. It just means the MK player won a matchup in which he has a huge advantage in. If I pick a character like Yoshi or snake now, that matchup advantage becomes much less and chances are If I went even at a 20:80 matchup, I'll probably kick your *** down the street at a 40:60-50:50. That's my experience at least.

No. Not at all. Taj is not the best player in the world because he can do really, really well with Mewtwo. M2K still ***** him even in something like marth dittos.

 

[Hive]

@yuna- stop trying to tell me what i was trying to "prove" to make yourself look better, i said what i said and its you who's misinterpreting it, and blatantly strawmanning me at this point. you misquoted me and the person i was responding to, and i never said that dark peach was the only person listened to in peach boards. so stop trying to say i am. that is called strawmanning. i reflected your own post about him being one of the very very few. you were still insulting and that is what i was pointing out.
Like i said before though, this topic is irrelevant. drop it. it adds nothing positive to the thread, and is off topic. you know this.


-as for the low tier thing, from a matchup perspective you can't ignore them, even among the best players there are some weaknesses against various low tiers. however, if your view is based off of how tournament viable they are, then yea, you can probably assume a low tier is not going to win a major tourney (maybe zss in d-tier, but that's about as low as you can get (pt probably gets the farthest in terms of low tiers...). Either way the important thing is to play. ^^

 

[Dark.Pch]

Good day, have you met Dark.pch?

Have you met Yuna? the one who likes to bring up names when they said nothing to them to sound funny or show off or try to get at someone. Dude has been doing this alot. I don't know if he has a thing for me, but my heart belongs to someone else so sorry dude. You are gonna have to seek that attention else where.

 

[Sky`]

I think it just comes down to the fact that some people just... won't get it.

And to those who understand and accept themselves, have fun winning tournament.

I really don't know how else to install knowledge in these people but if you want the short of what I said, read this.

Sky owned you guys and you don't realize it. >_<

Idealism and fantasy are sometimes wonderful/sometimes dangerous byproducts of human consciousness. I think this is a case of the latter.

He got it on the money.

 

[Sky`]

So tense sky, then you have the Nerve to get on me and even quote something dumb from niko. Take a look at yourself now.

For your request i'll work my azz off as much as possbile and in due time i'll make it happen.

But in general, you getting all pissed at me for what I said all cause one decides to try and look for an answer HEAD on instead of saying (sorry it is too hard, switch). And you gonna call him or anyone else who thinks like him) an anime kid. Like wtf.

You go and have your secondaries and play to win, but dont sit here and get at other people for thinking and trying stuff you don't have the balls to do. so YOU shut your f*cking mouth and go back to focusing on playing to win.

I'm actually not mad.
In an Ironic Turn of events, this weekend in doubles, I'm going all peach! And We won a regional last week, so we might win this one. =D

But in singles, alone, she isn't viable, and...

Yeah. This isn't gonna go anywhere.

 

[Kinzer]

I'm working mah way up with every tourney I go to.

I place better everytime. :D

 

[doom dragon 105]

xD I read his post and he is the typical stereotype for a pro smash player.

MK take little to no skill Ike does end of story

Use character because you like them not becuase they are good, I love how people can't grasp that concept

 

[Falconv1.0]

xD I read his post and he is the typical stereotype for a pro smash player.

MK take little to no skill Ike does end of story

Use character because you like them not becuase they are good, I love how people can't grasp that concept

And Ike gives you less rewards than MK. ^_____^

 

[Swordplay]

No one cares if you like maining link. Here, we play to win, not to have fun (even though we all have fun playing to win). When you have money on the line or your reputation to uphold, frankly, its really stupid to play link, especially if the opponent is someone like MK.

Nobody cares what you think. The whole point of the game is to enjoy it. I'll play Link even when there is money on the line just because I enjoy it. I mean why the #$@% would Legan challenge Overswarms ROB to money matches with Link. For the experience *******. Not for the money.

If you think its really stupid to play trash tiers then you should PM every single player that plays Link CF Jiggs and Ganon. There are a lot of us and I wonder why? Fanboys anybody???

You should just shut the #$@& up because you don't understand the the mind of a trash tier. You may play to win and that is fine but we play to have fun. Now since you have proven that you are a moron don't understand why these people choose to main the characters they do can continue to main them even though they loose 100% of the time you should GTFO of this thread.

Iz must dissagree...There was a tourney once upon a time (i can't remember the name) but King 3000 ( or some other sonic main) Place 3rd outta the top like 7 of only snakes and MKs.

His name was Mr. 3000 and Sonic is not trash tier IMO. and that is a rare occurrence anyway

Trash=Link Jiggs ganon CF

 

[Gindler]

Have you met Yuna? the one who likes to bring up names when they said nothing to them to sound funny or show off or try to get at someone. Dude has been doing this alot. I don't know if he has a thing for me, but my heart belongs to someone else so sorry dude. You are gonna have to seek that attention else where.

Yuna does seem to like to start things (just an observation, not looking for an E-fight Yuna)

Take it from me,My squirtle does not rack up killd,but perpares them to be served for the kill.Dthrow gives Squirtle a free switch.Also,have you ever heard of Foward Hydroplanning?

I have heard of the Forward Hydroplanning, I just love IVY in brawl is all, squirtle's my favorite pokemon from back in the day but in brawl meh.

I'm actually not mad.
In an Ironic Turn of events, this weekend in doubles, I'm going all peach! And We won a regional last week, so we might win this one. =D

But in singles, alone, she isn't viable, and...

Yeah. This isn't gonna go anywhere.

I saw this chart where peach is more viable than snake when played perfectly.

I'm sure she'd be viable if you weren't matched up with any good MKs

 

[kackamee]

Nobody cares what you think. The whole point of the game is to enjoy it. I'll play Link even when there is money on the line just because I enjoy it. I mean why the #$@% would Legan challenge Overswarms ROB to money matches with Link. For the experience *******. Not for the money.

If you think its really stupid to play trash tiers then you should PM every single player that plays Link CF Jiggs and Ganon. There are a lot of us and I wonder why? Fanboys anybody???

You should just shut the #$@& up because you don't understand the the mind of a trash tier. You may play to win and that is fine but we play to have fun. Now since you have proven that you are a moron don't understand why these people choose to main the characters they do can continue to main them even though they loose 100% of the time you should GTFO of this thread.




His name was Mr. 3000 and Sonic is not trash tier IMO. and that is a rare occurrence anyway

Trash=Link Jiggs ganon CF

I play characters because I like them...Not because I play to win. I do try my best, but I don't really care wether I win or lose. If someone wants to main a low tier, let them. Because I've seen plenty of low tier mains come in and own (or atleast get close enough) to a person who mains someone in the high tier range. It's all skill in the end.

BTW I never said Sonic was trash, I personally don't think Jiggs is trash either. But they both aren't high on the tier list

 

[Sky`]

Yuna does seem to like to start things (just an observation, not looking for an E-fight Yuna)



I have heard of the Forward Hydroplanning, I just love IVY in brawl is all, squirtle's my favorite pokemon from back in the day but in brawl meh.



I saw this chart where peach is more viable than snake when played perfectly.

I'm sure she'd be viable if you weren't matched up with any good MKs

But there in lies the contradiction. THere is no such thing as perfect play. =/

 

[Albert.]

does anyone else think it's funny that the peach mains all seem to have major issues with each other?

 

[|RK|]

@Sky':But, thanks to tripping, pros can get punished. Hence why Sakurai did it.

Oh, and Swordplay? Some of these people who play "trash tiers" do play 'em to win.

 

[Swordplay]

Yea Joker they can "win" individual matches but never a whole large tourney match with match after match of 30:70 matchups.

and tripping is the 1 weakness sakuri gave metaknight.....LOL

1000 posts *****

 

[Sky`]

@Sky':But, thanks to tripping, pros can get punished. Hence why Sakurai did it.

Oh, and Swordplay? Some of these people who play "trash tiers" do play 'em to win.

There's still no such thing as perfect play, and if you're going to argue the latter, then I'm going to have to question your credentials in the field of Smash in general.

 

[|RK|]

I didn't say there was such a thing as perfect play, now did I? I said there were ways for pros to mess up. Even if it isn't their fault.

 

[Sky`]

I didn't say there was such a thing as perfect play, now did I? I said there were ways for pros to mess up. Even if it isn't their fault.

And that's why they are pros, they find ways around it.

WITH HARD WORK AND DEDICATION ONII CHAN?

Right? Isn't it possible to never trip? Using your logic, it is.

So then, your claim is pretty much negated.

 

[Hive]

wait what? when did he ever say that it is possible to avoid tripping?? 0.0

 

[RyanPF]

Oh it's possible. Just don't move.

 

[Sky`]

wait what? when did he ever say that it is possible to avoid tripping trip?? 0.0

He's an advocate of saying that things that are impossible are possible.

This is no different from his previous claims.

 

[Hive]

look sky, i agree that low tiers won't win tournaments, and so don't think i'm not. (and also that peach won't though i respect drk.pch's thoughts) I mean I play samus ^^ its pretty obvious she won't unless she finds some, like instant ko or something. (though i'll still play her either way )

but i think (joker?) was arguing perfect play within the game mechanics though... (which includes say tripping, and the physics engine)
Still impossible. There's still untapped potential though i think. but probably not enough to cause any severe differences. One example of human's being below the perfect threshold though is that DDD's infinite can supposedly be broken out until like 630% with robotic mashing. This obvioulsy doesn't happen ^^
I think his point though is that we can still push at the supposed thresholds that are set right now though. (even though i disagree with his assumption that the current low tiers will really ever be able to win major tourneys...) I still agree there is more to gain.

 

[XienZo]

And that's why they are pros, they find ways around it.

WITH HARD WORK AND DEDICATION ONII CHAN?

Right? Isn't it possible to never trip? Using your logic, it is.

So then, your claim is pretty much negated.

To "win a tourney with a low-tier" is a "low%" event, and the chances of success increases over time.

To "never trip" is (1-"high%")% event, and the chances of success goes down over time.

They're not mathematical or logical equivalents; you initially start out without winning w/ low-tier, but as soon as you succeed, you can't undo it, while you initially start out "never tripping" but as soon as you fail, you can't undo it.

Basically, more time/effort spent on tournaments increases the chances of winning one, while more time/effort spent running decreases the chances of "never tripping"

But there in lies the contradiction. THere is no such thing as perfect play. =/

You don't have to have "perfect" play. You just have to be pretty close to it, and "NEARLY-perfect" play would have nearly the same effect as "perfect" play would.

 

[Sky`]

To "win a tourney with a low-tier" is a "low%" event, and the chances of success increases over time.

To "never trip" is (1-"high%")% event, and the chances of success goes down over time.

They're not mathematical or logical equivalents; you initially start out without winning w/ low-tier, but as soon as you succeed, you can't undo it, while you initially start out "never tripping" but as soon as you fail, you can't undo it.

Basically, more time/effort spent on tournaments increases the chances of winning one, while more time/effort spent running decreases the chances of "never tripping"

But they are still improbabilities that are nearing impossibilities.

Link will never win a major tournament.

However, Link does not have any 0-100 matchups. So statistically, He can win, it's just very improbable. With me here?

But because his chances are so low, that improbability gets deemed an impossibility. It's not gonna happen, no matter how much hardwork you put into it. Right?

And what makes them logical equivalents? They are both standardized by their Improbability, not their qualifiers for failure or success.

 

[Sky`]

Further more Xien, There is no Standard of Perfect play. Who are you to define what perfect is? How can we play near something that does not exist?

(Excuse the double post.)

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

wait what? when did he ever say that it is possible to avoid tripping trip?? 0.0

You can,Just learn about the homebrew channel,I wonder why noone does this.

 

[Hive]

You can,Just learn about the homebrew channel,I wonder why noone does this.

homebrew channel is kwl ^^ i've never got to try it though, no fair! :D

also I misspoke before. sorries ^^ yes you can avoid tripping... however i don't think that you can if you are trying to shoot for "perfect play." simply because there is no way that you can gain an advantage by specifically avoiding them since those techniques will put you at more risk. so in a way, tripping is part of the perfect play of people. you gain damage, but the alternatives are worse. its a cost benefit assessment.

 

[XienZo]

But they are still improbabilities that are nearing impossibilities.

Link will never win a major tournament.

However, Link does not have any 0-100 matchups. So statistically, He can win, it's just very improbable. With me here?

But because his chances are so low, that improbability gets deemed an impossibility. It's not gonna happen, no matter how much hardwork you put into it. Right?

And what makes them logical equivalents? They are both standardized by their Improbability, not their qualifiers for failure or success.

Yeah, but the difference is, you can raise the chances of Link winning by spending more time and effort as him, while you can only lower the chances of you never tripping.

There is less than a percent of a percent of a percent of a chance that any given commercial airplane flight will crash. We have tons and tons of recorded airplane crashes. This is because airplanes fly so frequently that the overall percentage get driven high.

The chances of winning with a low-tier is like that, the more time and effort you put into it, the more likely it will become, and with enough* time/effort, you can theoritically make it 100%.

Now, that "enough" is likely way too high, needing like 25 hours a day, but you just need to make it a fraction of the way there, and the impossible becomes possible.

Further more Xien, There is no Standard of Perfect play. Who are you to define what perfect is? How can we play near something that does not exist?

(Excuse the double post.)

Oh, simple, the best that can ever be played. Limit of "ability" as effort goes to infinity.

 

[AvaricePanda]

People who main low-tier characters in competition who want to win can increase their chances by just picking up a high-tier secondary who covers up their bad matchups.

Plus, the tier list is just a generic list. It's not as if all low-tiers suck against everyone else. Some low-tiers have good matchups against some of the higher cast...yet crap matchups against the others. Which is why, again, low-tier mainers should just pick up a secondary/second main that's most probably higher-tier and covers up their bad matchups.

I don't see why some people who main low-tiers are so defiant and say, "Well, you only main X char to win and I just want to have fun!" Is it impossible to have fun while playing as Meta Knight? And I don't see why those same people choose not to have a good secondary because they want to play to "have fun and prove everyone wrong." Really...just pick a good secondary, suck up your pride, and have fun and try to win at the same time. It's not dividing by zero.

(fails to see where I went with post)