Low Tiers and The Tournament Scene

[Hive]

People who main low-tier characters in competition who want to win can increase their chances by just picking up a high-tier secondary who covers up their bad matchups.

Plus, the tier list is just a generic list. It's not as if all low-tiers suck against everyone else. Some low-tiers have good matchups against some of the higher cast...yet crap matchups against the others. Which is why, again, low-tier mainers should just pick up a secondary/second main that's most probably higher-tier and covers up their bad matchups.

I don't see why some people who main low-tiers are so defiant and say, "Well, you only main X char to win and I just want to have fun!" Is it impossible to have fun while playing as Meta Knight? And I don't see why those same people choose not to have a good secondary because they want to play to "have fun and prove everyone wrong." Really...just pick a good secondary, suck up your pride, and have fun and try to win at the same time. It's not dividing by zero.

(fails to see where I went with post)

picking a secondary is kwl, and is often a good idea. however for me personally, its just not really my style (i mean i have secondaries.. i just don't use them in tourney), i play brawl bc i love samus ^^ and i want to take her as a far as i can bc i have fun playing her. that's not to say that picking a secondary isn't a better choice in terms of viability though. And I DO want to win. However, I also don't want to have to use secondaries. its a personal choice, and personal choices that go against degrees of viability are everywhere in brawl (but to different degrees- look at anyone who doesn't main mk - not to say that playing him is bad) ^^ i want to try to take her as far as i can, and take her good and bad matchups though. its just a difference in how much someone wants to sacrifice viability for character to play the game, its not necessarily bad

edit: whether a person uses a low tier or mid tier, or mk, etc... its such an insignificant thing to lose respect for someone for I think ^^ . not saying you are avarice ^^ I just see it a lot here we all play the game with different criteria on how they want to win. And that's a good thing imo

 

[LuigiKing]

stuff

I know exactly what you mean here. Though I do think its safe to say that a lot of people have a lot more fun when playing a character that they just plain love. I play Luigi and have more fun than my friends do (apparently) just because I enjoy the character so much. It also gives you much more of a drive to play well, at least in my opinion. My tournaments keep getting better and better so we'll see if I can make something of the little green dude.

 

[|RK|]

I had to get off of my dad's computer before I responded. I was going to talk about Brawl+ for no tripping, but people have covered that. Sky', I used to at the very least respect you, but going around telling people they can't win a major tournament with their character(below below average tier w/out secondary counterpick), then furthermore calling everyone who thinks it's possible an anime kid is ignorance. It's these people who discovers the game breaking techs. And all you'll do eventually is leech off of the work you told them was impossible. Nothing in a video game is impossible, Sky'. These people end up the best. And this won't make them better w/ a high tier, simply because the below below average tier may suit their playstyle. Maybe you're just too lazy to work hard, but let everyone else do what you've failed to: try. Yes hard work breeds results, otherwise the world would be without many people. And question my credentials all you want, but you are STILL too lazy to work for ways around ANYTHING. Matchup numbers mean nothing besides how easily the average player can win or how badly they'd generally lose. Then they work hard and practice. M2K did it, boards are studying frame-by-frame data, and working hard. So don't call me an anime kid when you can't even accept that the real world needs hard work and video games do too, depending on the game. No impossible matchups mean there is no matchup that a charcter cannot win or do something about. Smart, hard working people exploit these advantages. Whether it be that Link has fast projectiles and is harder for MK to kill, hard workers will find away around these, w/out counterpicks. The rest will use counterpicks, and therefore, their main will never get as good as it could be.

EDIT: In conclusion, you may play other characters, but don't do it as counterpicks characters. Just like if your character sucks on a stage, that's exactly where you should practice.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

So why stand here talking about this,when you can just practice for a tourney?This arguement is Pointless.We need action,not words here.

 

[|RK|]

I main a high tier. I can stay here talking all I want. lol, jk. Less than two hours of sleep before school isn't good for you. I just woke up, lol.

 

[BentoBox]

Why did this thread get side-tracked into another low tier viability argument?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm actually not mad.
In an Ironic Turn of events, this weekend in doubles, I'm going all peach! And We won a regional last week, so we might win this one. =D

But in singles, alone, she isn't viable, and...

Yeah. This isn't gonna go anywhere.

We'll see about that. I'm actually gonna break and find the real truth that others wont dare seek. If people keep holding back and not even work thier butt off to try, how do you really know she can't do it alot. How? Why, cause of match ups and how hard it is for YOU to handle them? For Peach in this case, you have no clue if she is or not. Not one person is doing what I am doing with Peach, the rest counterpick or are not very good. idk what they do.

You boys should be thanking me with peach to actually have the balls and find the truths others wont dare try.

 

[Cia]

my jigglypuff makes fools of everyone.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

As far as I am concened,Action speaks louder than words come into play.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Ok the first post was reasonable and OK I understand his/her opinion.

The second post, I did not understand at all... it just wasn't written well I guess. I'd like to understand fully what the person felt, but I can't really... but for now, what I understand from the 2nd post is that he thinks that using a Nair to punish a airdodge is 'nooby' and is not skill but is instead just attacking randomly. Also I was confused why he was saying Rob isn't too good of a character. He's not Middle, he's pretty high...

Actually, there are several tournaments where players have placed high with low tiers, especially Yoshi (well I'm not sure about the other low tiers, I've only learned about the Yoshis). There may not have been many tournys, but when a Yoshi did enter a tourny, (since only 1-2 actually goes to many tournys), he placed like top 10% pretty much every time, as in top 5. If only they could go to more tournys, Yoshi's would be placing pretty high.

And of course every character matters! If you don't think they matter, then you're not doing your job as a SBR member, and therefore you should either change or not participate in the SBR any more. You SBRers work on things like tier lists and such for the community which is GREAT and I thank you all for your work, BUT if you're not going to pay attention to what the community actually wants and work hard, then sorry, but I do NOT want you to be representing the community any more. I think that many people would rather have only the people who are considerate and listen to the community to be in the SBR, otherwise the Tier List would be biased, and why would anyone want an unspecific tier list? You'd be helping more if you were not in the SBR.

Or of course, at least make a note to the Tier List saying something like: Note, we focused on the higher tiers much more than the lower tiers.

That way we'd understand and interpret the Tier List better

 

[Yuna]

I already apologised earlier for mis reading your posts

Seriously, lets get off the subject of Peach - she's not one of the lowest characters on the tier list

I apologize if it sounded as if I was accusing you. I was merely stating the facts and criticizing Hive's grasp of them, not yours.

 

[Hive]

I apologize if it sounded as if I was accusing you. I was merely stating the facts and criticizing Hive's grasp of them, not yours.

are you serious? drop it, yuna. it is what like 5 days old now? and i reflected your own post in my quotes, the fact that you misquoted me (twice), misquoted the person, tried to say that i was proving something i never said, saying my facts were wrong (when they were based (exactly) off what YOU said), and tried to carry something out that is completely irrelevant to this thread, has shown only your own limited grasp of things. (especially brawl exp)
stop bringing up my name in your posts for immature personal attacks.

edit: I'm getting pretty tired of reading your ignorant posts about me every day yuna, and having to constantly respond to this sort of stuff. So let's make a deal that will benefit us both ^^
you stop talking crap about me, stop bringing up my name, and stop implying things about me. effective now.
and i stop responding in tactical. i'm getting tired of it anyways :/
deal or no deal. don't say stuff about me and then decide its a deal.

 

[Brinzy]

So why stand here talking about this,when you can just practice for a tourney?This arguement is Pointless.We need action,not words here.

Because it's a forum where you discuss these things.
Because you might be at work and you might not have access to Brawl.
Because you may not feel like playing.
Because you might want take action in discussing it, not just action in the actual game.

 

[Kitamerby]

Low tiers are low tier because they suck. They won't be seen often (unless you're awesome and/or your name is Taj) in high level play, and thus they aren't as important.

Higher tiered characters are not seen more simply because they are more common (although that is probably true), but because they also win their matches, meaning that you'll see them more commonly as you go higher up a tournament ladder. <<


Doesn't matter if you have a secondary or three, though. Just keep using Mario until you fight a Meta Knight, then switch to Snake. Keep using Bowser until you fight a DDD, then quickchange to Zelda or ZSS.

Low tiers aren't viable on their own.

FIGHT FOR YOUR FRIENDS.

 

[SexTornado]

Low tiers are low tier because they suck. They won't be seen often (unless you're awesome and/or your name is Taj) in high level play, and thus they aren't as important.

Higher tiered characters are not seen more simply because they are more common (although that is probably true), but because they also win their matches, meaning that you'll see them more commonly as you go higher up a tournament ladder. <<


Doesn't matter if you have a secondary or three, though. Just keep using Mario until you fight a Meta Knight, then switch to Snake. Keep using Bowser until you fight a DDD, then quickchange to Zelda or ZSS.

Low tiers aren't viable on their own.

FIGHT FOR YOUR FRIENDS.

We have a winner.

 

[Yuna]

and i reflected your own post in my quotes, the fact that you misquoted me (twice), misquoted the person

Stop misusing the English language.

There is no possible way for me to misquote you if I simply hit "Quote" and quotes your post exactly as it was written. That is not a misquote.

I refuse to respond to the rest of your (as usual) ludicrous and untrue accusations because you most probably meant to accuse me of other things entirely and just used the wrong words, confusing everyone (as usual) as to what you are actually accusing me of.

 

[Roxas215]

I actually hate using top tier chars. I main diddy but now since the new tier list diddy is now top tier and i feel kinda bad using him. My secondaries are Peach Zss and Pokemon Trainer. All of my chars are very hard to use in tournament level. I'll also admit that when it comes down to tournament matches that matter i go for diddy cause lets face it he is still my best char. But i really do want to get my pokemon trainer to tournament level. The fact is top/high tiers are just better chars then low tiers. Thats not to say low tiers can't hold their own but they have to work a hell of a lot harder to get over their weakness. Lets take mk vs link for example. Only thing mk has to do is throw him off the stage and dair him to death. I've seen mk's gimp links in the low 30%. When u have to overcome obstacles like that sometimes it's just not worth it. This is why i love low tier tournaments lol.

 

[Natch]

I actually hate using top tier chars. I main diddy but now since the new tier list diddy is now top tier and i feel kinda bad using him. My secondaries are Peach Zss and Pokemon Trainer. All of my chars are very hard to use in tournament level. I'll also admit that when it comes down to tournament matches that matter i go for diddy cause lets face it he is still my best char. But i really do want to get my pokemon trainer to tournament level. The fact is top/high tiers are just better chars then low tiers. Thats not to say low tiers can't hold their own but they have to work a hell of a lot harder to get over their weakness. Lets take mk vs link for example. Only thing mk has to do is throw him off the stage and dair him to death. I've seen mk's gimp links in the low 30%. When u have to overcome obstacles like that sometimes it's just not worth it. This is why i love low tier tournaments lol.

Don't feel bad about using Diddy. When people are using Top Tiers, it becomes less about the character and more about how good each player is.

 

[Matador]

Don't feel bad about using Diddy. When people are using Top Tiers, it becomes less about the character and more about how good each player is.

QFT

At higher levels of play, the character starts to matter less and less. That's why some players can consistently place better than people using the same character, or why some players can place well with low/mid tier.

 

[camzaman]

It seems this is the latest thread to take off here at SWF. More power to you if you can get far with low tiers. Me, I'm sick of Yuna's walls of quotes and everyone's heated debate over tier crap. My new hangout is the Starcraft 2 forums. Have fun all!

 

[|RK|]

Low tiers are low tier because they suck. They won't be seen often (unless you're awesome and/or your name is Taj) in high level play, and thus they aren't as important.

Higher tiered characters are not seen more simply because they are more common (although that is probably true), but because they also win their matches, meaning that you'll see them more commonly as you go higher up a tournament ladder. <<


Doesn't matter if you have a secondary or three, though. Just keep using Mario until you fight a Meta Knight, then switch to Snake. Keep using Bowser until you fight a DDD, then quickchange to Zelda or ZSS.

Low tiers aren't viable on their own.

FIGHT FOR YOUR FRIENDS.

Kita, get out, lol. ^_^

 

[Brinzy]

So can we all agree to have secondaries if your character isn't the ****?

It seems this is the latest thread to take off here at SWF. More power to you if you can get far with low tiers. Me, I'm sick of Yuna's walls of quotes and everyone's heated debate over tier crap. My new hangout is the Starcraft 2 forums. Have fun all!

What a waste of a post.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So can we all agree to have secondaries if your character isn't the ****?

I don't agree actually. It really simplifies the problems with some characters, and in any case it's not like the average character in brawl is even all that bad. I mean, if you lose most top tier matchups 55-45 or 60-40, how does a secondary help? Not at all is the answer. You either need to play better to overcome those (overall slight) disadvantages or get a new main. Just playing better is overall a better answer than secondaries in general; unless you are using DK or Fox or someone like that who has really stupid matchups (even among low tiers, these are WAY more rare than some of you guys seem to think), it's probably better to focus on improving yourself more than anything. You should be using whatever character helps you win the most anyway; if your honest assessment of your personal abilities suggests that your best bet at winning is someone the community considers low tier, you are not doing yourself any favors by switching to another character when the big bad Meta Knight or whoever else it may be comes out to play.

I fear the advice in topics like this is what leads people to make the devastatingly bad choice to "counterpick" characters like Meta Knight when they lose even if they don't really play those characters on the same level they play their main. Then they lose even worse and are filled with regret that they threw away their best chance at the tournament because they didn't stick to what worked for them. Play a bad matchup with your best characters before you play a good matchup with characters who are not your best, and you'll never regret it.

 

[Veril]

those terrible matchups DO exist though. Take Jiggs, I need a secondary to deal with GW.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think both sides overblow how bad the Mr. Game & Watch/Jigglypuff matchup is; I've played both sides of it (Jigglypuff, being my old main from melee, is a character I actually use in friendlies a lot) and really feel it's "pretty bad but still somewhat winnable". Her mobility almost matches his range for general utility; the fact that Mr. Game & Watch is so much more powerful makes it dumb for Jigglypuff, but nothing he has just invalidates her like King Dedede's chainthrow invalidates DK. Given how Jigglypuff is already had pretty obnoxious matchups against a bunch of other characters who are way too good at stuffing all of her approaches (Meta Knight, King Dedede, Ness, etc.), dealing with a substantial though possible to overcome disadvantage just seems par for the course for her.

 

[|RK|]

While it is beneficial to play a counterpick to win with a low tier, it isn't necessary. And while I won't criticize you for playing higher tiers to win, you should just pick your favorite or best character. After all, those who do that end up really good, normally, because they don't want their favorite character to lose, and it makes them work harder to win. That said, I will repeat again: I do not see myself ever using a counterpick character. But then again, my favorite characters are high tiers, Lucario and Kirby, that don't need secondaries.*

*NOTE: Higher tiers are easier to use when trying to overcome bad matchups. Especially those over or in C-Tier. The rest take harder work to maintain and win with, so I commend you for not taking the lazy path.

 

[AvaricePanda]

I don't know why it's necessarily lazy to counterpick.

Some people just have crap matchups. Period. If your opponent is a Zelda, Shiek, or Pika main and you're a Fox, you're at a humongous disadvantage if you fight them as Fox (lol tiltlocks and chaingrabs to 80%). You could try to get around that, saying, "Don't get grabbed/ftilted" and play them, or you could counterpick with someone you're decent with and fare a better chance. Does it take as much work? Probably not. Is it lazy? No, it's smart.

However, I don't necessarily counterpick select characters...I have two mains atm, Fox and Diddy. If there's a matchup where Fox doesn't do well and Diddy does...I'll choose Diddy. Vice versa.

In my opinion, it's better to use mains/secondaries that have better matchups, rather than just a counterpick character. If some random guy who never uses D3 counterpicks a Snake with D3, they're probably better off with their regular main. Unless D3 is someone they actually use to a decent level, then it's understandable.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Do whatever makes you win
simple as that
ultimately the tier list doesn't matter, whether or not you personally win your sets is what matters
if everyone does this, then the tier list naturally shifts. In Melee, Captain Falcon was originally like near the bottom of the mid tier or something like that, but instead of complaining and making threads, Falcon players just got better and started winning and expanding Falcon's metagame, and Falcon ended up like seventh on the list i believe

edit: also the person quoted in the opening post is an idiot who obviously doesn't take competitive Brawl very seriously, and i'm sad that this whole thread was spawned from his inane comments. I'm also sad that he's allowed to be a Broomer.

 

[Veril]

Do whatever makes you win
simple as that
ultimately the tier list doesn't matter, whether or not you personally win your sets is what matters
if everyone does this, then the tier list naturally shifts. In Melee, Captain Falcon was originally like near the bottom of the mid tier or something like that, but instead of complaining and making threads, Falcon players just got better and started winning and expanding Falcon's metagame, and Falcon ended up like seventh on the list i believe

edit: also the person quoted in the opening post is an idiot who obviously doesn't take competitive Brawl very seriously, and i'm sad that this whole thread was spawned from his inane comments. I'm also sad that he's allowed to be a Broomer.

QFT

This is really all that has to be said.

 

[Veng]

okay wait, an SBR member posted that?

Why is he in the SBR again?

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

While it is beneficial to play a counterpick to win with a low tier, it isn't necessary. And while I won't criticize you for playing higher tiers to win, you should just pick your favorite or best character. After all, those who do that end up really good, normally, because they don't want their favorite character to lose, and it makes them work harder to win. That said, I will repeat again: I do not see myself ever using a counterpick character. But then again, my favorite characters are high tiers, Lucario and Kirby, that don't need secondaries.*

*NOTE: Higher tiers are easier to use when trying to overcome bad matchups. Especially those over or in C-Tier. The rest take harder work to maintain and win with, so I commend you for not taking the lazy path.

You think somone could take Captain Falcon all the way through a tournament without counterpicking? Really?

 

[Kinzer]

Sure, if his opponents really sucked.

Or it was a Man-ditto tourney, C.Falcon is guaranteed to win for sure.

 

[Natch]

While it is beneficial to play a counterpick to win with a low tier, it isn't necessary. And while I won't criticize you for playing higher tiers to win, you should just pick your favorite or best character. After all, those who do that end up really good, normally, because they don't want their favorite character to lose, and it makes them work harder to win. That said, I will repeat again: I do not see myself ever using a counterpick character. But then again, my favorite characters are high tiers, Lucario and Kirby, that don't need secondaries.*

*NOTE: Higher tiers are easier to use when trying to overcome bad matchups. Especially those over or in C-Tier. The rest take harder work to maintain and win with, so I commend you for not taking the lazy path.

Yep, I main Snake. If I ever try to beat DSF in tournament, I'm sure everybody will say I'm taking the lazy path, and that I should be using C.Falcon.

 

[Veril]

Yep, I main Snake. If I ever try to beat DSF in tournament, I'm sure everybody will say I'm taking the lazy path, and that I should be using C.Falcon.

Use Lucas lol... god that was an unpleasant thread...

 

[Natch]

Use Lucas lol... god that was an unpleasant thread...

Yes it was.

Everybody is still butthurt over that apparently as well.

 

[|RK|]

No, that's not lazy. You MAIN Snake.

 

[AndreVeloso]

There seems little help in lifting low tiers. Even if someone becomes very good with a character in several high match-ups than the tier list won't change. For low tiers to rise a WHOLE lot more people need to start using them and a WHOLE lot more people need to start winning with them.

 

[Kage Me]

There seems little help in lifting low tiers. Even if someone becomes very good with a character in several high match-ups than the tier list won't change. For low tiers to rise a WHOLE lot more people need to start using them and a WHOLE lot more people need to start winning with them.

That shouldn't matter. The tier list is often regarded as fact, and now we hear that anything below B tier may very well be inaccurate?

I don't exactly care about the tiers (I refuse to main an A, S or SS character), but I do think that something this big should receive a lot more work than what has apparently gone into it now...

 

[|RK|]

Why wouldn't you main them? You see, that annoys me. When people get so caught up in what others think that they won't main who they like.

​

 

[Gindler]

Maybe he just doesn't like the hightiers play style. I don't like MK at all (too slow in the air, yoshi spoiled me), snake just plain sucks in the air, and D3 just camps for grabs so boring. IDK, i just don't see how anyone can play characters like that. Just a preference thing.


But yeah I hate people that refuse to main people simply because of their placement in a tierlist, if yoshi was top tier I'd still play him since I like him as a character not his moveset or any of that nonsense