Low Tiers and The Tournament Scene

[TheReflexWonder]

It is fun to play low tiers sometimes, but if you honestly think that low tiers or your favorite character will do that good in a tournament filled with people the same skill level using high tier chars and above, you should leave now.

What if your favorite character is Meta Knight?

Matchups and intelligent play make up the tournament scene. If what you say is true, then every tournament would be won by high tiers only.

 

[BentoBox]

This.

Where is Bento, because that statement is completely false

Lolol xD

Welllll he also did say:

Can Weegee and other low-tiers do it alone? HELL NO. That's what secondaries are for. Can he catch a few peeps by surprise and win crucial counter-picks and such? ABSOLUTELY.

 

[Remzi]

This is just further proof that the SBR needs to completely reform itself.

 

[Judge Judy]

If you can win tourneys with your character, great. If your character happens to be in low tier, great.

/thread

 

[po pimpus]

Thanks for reading the entire post, Bento. I've been around long enough to realize where I am skill wise. I've also seen people do seemingly impossible things with characters that are almost totally worthless competitively.

People like Ka-Master in Melee, Bum, Dire, Anther, and new names like Boss continually do things against people I currently don't stand a chance against. I'm not arrogant enough to place myself on their level, but I do feel that there's some more left in ME, as well as my character to pull from.

I haven't tapped into it yet, so until I do, I will rely on smart counter-picking and secondaries to get me through the matches I haven't figured out yet.

One more thing before I finish: Why would anyone, low-tier main or not, want to limit themselves to only one character? If you're absolute ****-sauce with Ness, cool, but what happens when you run into that one Marth player you can't mind-game into submission?

No one is invincible. No match-up is truly impossible, but for competition's sake, why would you let the deck be so oppresively stacked against you?

 

[Yuna]

no, you look at it the wrong way. when you use someone like Link for instance and you beat an MK and possibly win or at least place high enough, people are going to respect you.

The problem is that a lot of people don't care whether or not a low tier mainer is actually able to do well. They think that all low tier mainers deserve extra respect, credit and reverence no matter what.

And as soon as a low tier mainer manages to beat someone maining a non-low tier, no matter on what level that non-low tier player is playing, it's an upset and proof of the tier list being wrong and yaddi yaddi yadda.

Why? because that person not only has the skill to beat a top tier but is showing people that you don't need to play the best characters to beat another. True just because you use a low tier doesn't mean you deserve anything, but like you said it's about what you do with that character.

The problem is that a lot of people don't care about what you do with the characters. They only care about the characters. Hive herself stated in that post that she "[respects] people who think differently...". It wasn't "I respect people who can place well with low tiers", it was "Everyone who consciously mains low tiers are worthy of extra respect (at least from me)".

No.

TIER LISTS MEAN NOTHING TO A SKILLED PLAYER.

If you are good enough, you should be able to win with ANY character, regardless of the characters' inherent weaknesses/flaws.

Complete and utter baloney.

People like Ka-Master in Melee, Bum, Dire, Anther, and new names like Boss continually do things against people I currently don't stand a chance against. I'm not arrogant enough to place myself on their level, but I do feel that there's some more left in ME, as well as my character to pull from.

They've never come close to winning a major tournament with a low tier.

 

[Shiri]

Not again. =_=

 

[BentoBox]

Do it Shiri!

 

[Dekar173]

The tier list is 1/36 complete. It's a work in progress people, get over it!

 

[Hive]

The problem is that a lot of people don't care about what you do with the characters. They only care about the characters. Hive herself stated in that post that she "[respects] people who think differently...". It wasn't "I respect people who can place well with low tiers", it was "Everyone who consciously mains low tiers are worthy of extra respect (at least from me)".
.

nope. that's not what i meant at all. you misquoted me, of course. when i said i respect people who think differently i wasn't talking about people who main low tiers, it was addressing that same sentence. I respect people who play to win at all costs, even though i myself play to win with my favorite character(s). i.e. i respect people even if they don't play for the same reasons i do.

 

[memphischains]

The tier list is 1/36 complete. It's a work in progress people, get over it!

I agree that we all know sonic is steak tier

 

[Yuna]

nope. that's not what i meant at all. you misquoted me, of course. when i said i respect people who think differently i wasn't talking about people who main low tiers, it was addressing that same sentence. I respect people who play to win at all costs, even though i myself play to win with my favorite character(s). i.e. i respect people even if they don't play for the same reasons i do.

It was a perfectly reasonable way of interpreting your post. But I apologize for misinterpreting it. It still doesn't change my argument. Way too many people think the way I thought you think.

My beef is with them, the people who automatically respect anyone who mains low tiers just because they main low tiers.

 

[Kinzer]

I agree that we all know sonic is steak tier

I was trying to come up with a way of being a smart-*** about that quote, but you just take the cake Steak Chains.

 

[Hive]

It was a perfectly reasonable way of interpreting your post. And it still doesn't change my argument. Way too many people think the way I thought you think.

My beef is with them, the people who automatically respect anyone who mains low tiers just because they main low tiers.

actually your interpretation wouldn't be correct because if you break it that way the second sentence wouldn't make as much sense. but really w/e.(edit) ty for the apology you added. (i'm shocked!)

i don't care that your argument doesn't change, i just don't want you to keep trying to reference something i didn't say.... also I agree that ppl don't earn respect just bc they main low tiers.
i still think its kwl though when people are willing to face more handicaps and work harder to make a character they like competitive though, just bc i like diversity in characters and i like when people main characters they have an attatchment to... but its not like i respect those people any more than other players, i can just relate to their reasons for playing.

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

People who play a character because they are Low Tier are just as "bad"(for lack of a better term) as people who play characters because they are High Tier. Both of those groups allow the tier list to define their character choices. Now, Im not saying that is a bad thing; everyone has their own reasons for playing the characters they play. What Im saying is that we can't have the kettle calling the pot black (Cliche!).

Personally, I feel if you want to play to win, you should play with a character that plays naturally for you. Sure, you can get pretty far pretty quickly by learning a top tier, but I feel a person will only be able to reach their full potential through characters that allow them to play naturally. You can learn all the ATs and stuff, but if the character doesnt play naturally, you wont be able to handle anything new you may face. What if that character you are fighting in a tourney doesnt play "by the books"? Your learned strategy wont help you there. This is where your natural skill comes in to play, and the more comfortable you are with your character, the better you'll do.

When it comes to secondaries, if you are playing to win, I would suggest you learn characters to supplement your main. Im not going to argue with any of the "No match is unwinnable!" people, but there are are certain matchups that are difficult for specific characters; matchups where the amount of effort it may take for one character to win is unfair. This is why you learn secondaries. Your main is the character you want to play. Your secondary is the character to fill in the cracks.

 

[Deleted member]

The Backroom apparently allows idiots now.

hmm, maybe.

expect this to be fixed for the next tier list. I'll be handling it personally.

 

[spudzalot]

I think its to early to just ignore the Low Tiers. They game has only been out for a year. I think the SBR needs to think more about the Low Tiers now before they are stuck down there forever because of a huge biase since the start of the game.

After a few years and the tier list is more accurate then they can start saying certain characters are worthless. Not now.

 

[Yuna]

I think its to early to just ignore the Low Tiers. They game has only been out for a year. I think the SBR needs to think more about the Low Tiers now before they are stuck down there forever because of a huge biase since the start of the game.

One year+ is quite a lot of time. The general population of SWF seem to have very little faith in the Competitive scene, what with the mantra of "It's too early" being repeated over and over again.

One year is not "too little time" at all. One year is plenty of time. Now the SBR might be a bit slower than most other Competitive fighting game communities in churning out Tier Lists, but that's the SBR's problem. One year is still plenty of time.

In addition to this, Brawl is quite superficial. We haven't really discovered many game-changing techniques at all as of late (and by that I mean the past, um, 6 or so months). Why? Because there's not much left to be found.

It's not too early. The metagame as we currently know it will probably not change that drastically. It's not too early to declare certain characters Low Tier Forever and Total **** (unless some game-breaking mechanic that magically propels said character to A-tier) is found.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

It is a shame when tier lists get into your mind. Because you won't pick a low tier because you think you won't be able to get far. Or you can get obsessed with winning with a low tier to prove he can do it. And to some people, they just don't like to use high tiers because they feel they are at an advantage over other players and winning does not give satisfaction that way. Off course, there are also high tiers whores that only care about winning, using the cheapest character possible, and the cheapest maneuver possible. And they do feel great being like that. I don't respect them at all.

I do respect people who stick with their main, no matter how low tiered it is. Even if they loose or win, I respect them. Why? Because they have the balls to keep going and improving until they beat everyone else. They don't give up on their characters. They take the blame as players and work hard to overcome their character flaws and get the best of their character gifts. There is always place for creativity and tactics.

To me is not just about winning, but about how I win. If my main were Captain Falcon and I won against many characters. I would feel just amazingly good, as I know that I overcame even the fact that my character is the worst in the game (or so they say). If I had to switch to characters I don't like because they are powerful. Winning won't be satisfying to me at all.

You may call it the Anime Effect, but I just don't like to accept I can't beat someone with a certain character. If I main someone, I don't accept I have to switch to someone else to make it. I feel like a coward that gave up. I will keep trying until I am successful. That's how I grow. That's how I feel good. That's my "way of the Smasher". xD

I don't really understand that obsession about making accurate tier lists. If they were used to balance the game ourselves using handicaps (built in the game), I would give them an applause. But the only thing tier lists cause is to make the problem worse. Because lazy people go for the high tier and develop them even more. And more people give up on low tiered characters as they feel hopeless.

 

[Yuna]

I don't really understand that obsession about making accurate tier lists. If they were used to balance the game ourselves using handicaps, I would give them an applause. But the only thing tier lists cause is to make the problem worse. Because lazy people go for the high tier and develop them even more. And more people give up on low tiered characters as they feel hopeless.

The Tier List helps people for the same reasons that it causes problems. It helps people choose their mains based on whether they are High or Low depending on what you are looking for. Why should we not create something that is helpful because some people whose opinions don't matter misuse it?

 

[Wrath`]

People who play a character because they are Low Tier are just as "bad"(for lack of a better term) as people who play characters because they are High Tier. Both of those groups allow the tier list to define their character choices. Now, Im not saying that is a bad thing; everyone has their own reasons for playing the characters they play. What Im saying is that we can't have the kettle calling the pot black (Cliche!).

Personally, I feel if you want to play to win, you should play with a character that plays naturally for you. Sure, you can get pretty far pretty quickly by learning a top tier, but I feel a person will only be able to reach their full potential through characters that allow them to play naturally. You can learn all the ATs and stuff, but if the character doesnt play naturally, you wont be able to handle anything new you may face. What if that character you are fighting in a tourney doesnt play "by the books"? Your learned strategy wont help you there. This is where your natural skill comes in to play, and the more comfortable you are with your character, the better you'll do.

I totaly agree with this statment.

all I have to say is that if you main a low tier, be better than good.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

The Tier List helps people for the same reasons that it causes problems. It helps people choose their mains based on whether they are High or Low depending on what you are looking for. Why should we not create something that is helpful because some people whose opinions don't matter misuse it?

Matchups are helpful. Character guides are helpful. Tiers lists are just like: "Ok, so you want to use the better characters: use this one and this other one. Forget about the others. They are crap".

Sadly, much people take tier lists too seriously and they will listen to the SBR instead of try all characters to see how far they can get and develop. That is not good for the competitive scene. Why would we have diversity if all people believe Metaknight is the best by far? Let us all use him and have MK dittos.


Much of you can do is determined by what you really believe. Let people believe they can win with anyone and let them develop themselves. Don't tell them , don't go that way, because its a dead end. No one really know how far you can get with a character, because your style can be as unique as your person.

I know I won't stop you from making tier lists. So I will encourage people to don't consider them that much. Go for the character you like the most, or the character you enjoy more playing as. Let us be diverse and unique. You can copy great players moves but also consider to be creative yourselves.

 

[.Marik]

Matchups are helpful. Character guides are helpful. Tiers lists are just like: "Ok, so you want to use the better characters: use this one and this other one. Forget about the others. They are crap".

Sadly, much people take tier lists too seriously and they will listen to the SBR instead of try all characters to see how far they can get and develop.

This about sums it up.

 

[Yuna]

Matchups are helpful. Character guides are helpful. Tiers lists are just like: "Ok, so you want to use the better characters: use this one and this other one. Forget about the others. They are crap".

The Tier List is a shortcut. Instead of having to look at individual match-ups, you can take the shortcut and take a look at the list. Those at the top stand the highest chances of winning. Simple as that.

Sadly, much people take tier lists too seriously and they will listen to the SBR instead of try all characters to see how far they can get and develop.

Unless you're one of the best players in the world, you won't be able to do well with low tiers. If people want characters with easy paths to victory, let them choose one such character. The lists helps people do that. You might not like it, but it's up to each player what kind of character they want to play.

Much of you can do is determined by what you really believe. Let people believe they can win with anyone and let them develop themselves. Don't tell them , don't go that way, because its a dead end. No one really know how far you can get with a character, because your style can be as unique as your person.

But it is a blatant lie to say that any character can win (relatively speaking). Unless you happen to be one of the best players in the world, you won't even be able to place Top 10 with anyone below C, ever.

I know I won't stop you from making tier lists. So I will encourage people to don't consider them that much. Go for the character you like the most, or the character you enjoy more playing as. Let us be diverse and unique. You can copy great players moves but also consider to be creative yourselves.

This is about winning. Screw diversity, screw uniqueness. If someone is specifically looking for a character who has an easy path to victory, let them choose such a character. Who are you to tell people to not do that? Who are you to wish we didn't make Tier Lists to prevent people from doing that?

This isn't Casual gaming. We're playing to win and a part of playing to win is choosing a character with a relatively easy path to victory. And if some people wish to choose such a character as their main, let them.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I think that the SBR should grace us with a tierlist made FROM the match up statistics. But then again, that wouldn't be a Tierlist, now would it.

Btw, would it be dumb for me to ask the world exactly what it is that makes a character "High or Low" Tier? Because it seems like characters each have their own individual strengths and styles, heavy to light, fast to slow, strong to weak, comboing to ... non-comboing, ranged to close quarters... I

f anything, it seems like tiers are mainly popularity lists, like in highschool. But that can't be, because Snake, Metaknight, Dedede and Falco would be the preppy plastic girls who have relations with everyone....

 

[Veril]

No matter how good you might get with a low tier, chances are you'd have gotten farther if you had put that time and effort into a high tier. Sorry but that's just how it is. You shouldn't get angry at people who want to play a more reliable character.

Again, I play Jigglypuff, and I spend a lot of time working on developing her. I do this because I enjoy playing as Jigglypuff and can win with her, provided it isn't one of her terrible terrible matchups. I'm not playing her, or Lucas for that matter, because they're low tier.

I am, however, using MK in part because he is the top. His style works well with me, and he's a lot of fun, I just don't like him as much as Jiggs. There's no shame in playing a better character to make up for deficits in your main. If I encounter an Olimar, chances are I won't play as Jigglypuff (I'd lose... hard).

I think that the SBR should grace us with a tierlist made FROM the match up statistics. But then again, that wouldn't be a Tierlist, now would it.

Get off your soapbox plz

 

[eet]

I think tier lists should be based off of tournament rankings, but that's just me...

 

[Schwaumlaut]

So check out Ankoku's thread. I kinda prefer his list to the backroom list anyway, both because I <3 data and because it updates more frequently.

 

[Coney]

Before I get on a roll, I want it to be known that I've never, ever been of the complete PLAY 2 WIN mindset. I play and go to tourneys more as an occasional hobby. I'm not trying to win big bux or anything, just playing my **** game and maybe meeting some cool people along the way.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm getting the impression that people who say the tier list isn't accurate haven't gone or currently don't go to tournaments. I'd wager that they have a small community of pals, and within that small community have friends that are okay with Mario or Lucas (have you noticed how many people pick Lucas early on?) and do well against the rest of their friends. Because of this, they get the impression that the entire tier list of off whack because OH GOD HIS MARIO BEAT HIS KIRBY 90-10 MATCHUP ALERT THE MEDIA

The fact of the matter is that in any competitive game, tiers DO exist. They have to. There's simply no way to balance 35+ characters completely. There are going to be some bad characters and there are going to be some good ones. If you want to give more respect to people who main low tiers, fine, that's your prerogative. But people who demand that others should "find their own path" are just silly. No, please don't compile a tier list based on factual data and personal opinion of actual Smash pioneers! I might read it! My young and impressionable young mind can't handle suggestion!

Do I like character diversity? Yeah, it's cool. Do I wish there were more character representation in tournaments? I guess. Do I hate Meta-Knight? You ****ing bet. But you can't fault people for doing the things that they do, just as you can't say that low tiers are more viable than they've proven themselves to be. As far as I'm concerned, no character "JUST NEEDS MORE TIME." As stated, it'd take a pretty game-breaking AT to get some of the bottom tier out of their hole. Just look at Lucas. I love the kid and the Lucas community has found out some amazing physics tricks with him, things that can boggle the mind and confuse the opponent...and he's still not very good. Yoshi is the same story.

Of course, there are some characters whose tier placement is just off. I think Sonic's better than the SBR gives him credit for. I'm not entirely sure if Falcon is the worst in the game (no idea who else it would be though). I'm scared to death of a good Olimar. But these characters being off-kilt a few slots doesn't suddenly make Link a force to be reckoned with.

The quotes the OP provided are a little disconcerting, sure, but it doesn't completely discredit the entire tier list just because the community believes a few SBR members are "out of touch."

 

[Hive]

no one should ignore low tier characters just because they are low tier :/
yea, from a tournament standpoint i can see how you can make that assumption. low tiers aren't going to win tournaments, that's pretty settled, and so from that perspective I can see how you'd make the assumption that their only real worth is to slightly change the top people's placings depending on how effective they are.
however from a player/personal standpoint I doubt (due to character matchups, and player experience) that you can completely discout low tiers either. even mk stands a semi-reasonable chance of losing to say yoshi or pokemon trainer at even levels (possible, not probable<-). doesn't mean yoshi will win the whole tournament. but if you main mk, from a player standpoint, you can't ignore this fact.
unless you have the skills, and multiple character experiences to wipe out the entire low tier at high levels of play you can't ignore the low tier as a whole, imo.

 

[goodkid]

low tier have that unpredictability. combined w/ high tier they can win a tourney

 

[|RK|]

The joys of maining a high-tier. Those of you who say the tier list is a shortcut? It's not very reliable. Why not take the long path in the woods when the shortcut has a hidden pit of flame? The point is hard work gets you places, low tier or no. I mean, if you get on M2K's skill level, but with Link, are you gonna win? No. Why? Because MK has better tools with which to use said skill. If you can beat M2K with Link (O_o), then you have truly become better. Y'see, the tier list is based on RESULTS. While their opinion that low tier characters cannot beat high tier characters is wrong, the chances of that are rather slim. It's the fact that so many people listen to that is cause for anger. Yes you can beat a high tier with Captain Falcon if you try hard enough, especially if you want to win SO BAD you find resources to determine ALL of Captain Falcon's code and utilize hidden mechanics. Those of you saying it isn't too early, what? Maybe you're just rushing things along too fast. In the quote, you can see that they focused on the more tournament viable high-tiers because everyone was rushing for a new tier list. Quality can never be rushed, because there is always something better to be done if you take more time. Did any of you see how some hip-hop stars are trying to keep kids out of jail? By teaching them Chess. Why? To show them that one more second, one more moment to think can keep you from making a damaging decision. As I said in another topic about matchups. "Whoa, a rushed decision is worse than an outdated one, cowboy." So stop rushing the SBR. I'm sure their thinking is better than they let on, but if we stop clamoring for tier lists, like things we can figure out on our own by taking the most favorable matchups for a character and putting em' in numerical order, then factor in potential shown by players, and WE could make a better tier list. The point is, stop rushing them to release stuff. I personally hope they take time on the next tier list and make unrushed decisions.

And Sky? I can make it w/out a secondary, no, counterpick character (I like playing as other chars too). Trust me. But then again, that's more geared towards low tier mainers ,no?


EDIT: Yeah, not paying any attention to the low tiers will give them the advantages. We don't worry enough to know about them, but they will know everything about us, and turn out to be the better Smashers in the end.

 

[PK-ow!]

no one should ignore low tier characters just because they are low tier :/
yea, from a tournament standpoint i can see how you can make that assumption. low tiers aren't going to win tournaments, that's pretty settled, and so from that perspective I can see how you'd make the assumption that their only real worth is to slightly change the top people's placings depending on how effective they are.
however from a player/personal standpoint I doubt (due to character matchups, and player experience) that you can completely discout low tiers either. even mk stands a semi-reasonable chance of losing to say yoshi or pokemon trainer at even levels (possible, not probable<-). doesn't mean yoshi will win the whole tournament. but if you main mk, from a player standpoint, you can't ignore this fact.

Only in virtue of those characters not being total garbage.

If a character actually had no chance in Hell of winning, a correct tier list would reflect that fact (i.e., Yoshi or whoever would be in Useless tier - or some other name even stronger than 'garbage', I don't know). The tier list does capture this fact you have pointed out.
If you were trying to criticize the tier list in that way, all you've shown is something to suggest people read it wrong - which is their mistake, and nothing can be done about that. It's no reason not to try to describe the thing.

unless you have the skills, and multiple character experiences to wipe out the entire low tier at high levels of play you can't ignore the low tier as a whole, imo.

Well , yeah. The point that wants to be made is that characters of a low-low tier* are there because there is a degree to which you can ignore them, barring exceptional circumstances. If you're in a region with Azen, tier lists fall to the side, because their assumptions aren't satisfied: equal skill level. That is, Azen is prolly better than you, for arbitrary 'you'. Of course you're going to apply some reason when looking at the tier list if you're in a case like that.

*The other thing is a qualification to the * asterisk. Low tier, in that sentence, must mean more than just being on the lower end of a tier list. It's not enough to simply fall around the last in the full ordering of the characters. There has to be actual dividing lines. In every game I know of, those lines exist - there is a set of characters that just have something more, that sets them apart beyond just ranking above the others. We reflect this with the actual distinct, named (lettered) tiers. I wanted to be clear about this. A character in such a low ranking tier (not just position) is one that can be, to a degree, given less attention for a small cost in overall "preparation" for arbitrary tournament circuit T. This is because, roughly, a character that can be given less attention for a small cost in overall preparation for arbitrary tournament circuit T, is *in* low tier.

The point is if the tier list is true, the low low tier chars are just the threat that the tier list describes them to be. If you understand that right, and treat the tier list to be no stronger a claim than it really is, you won't go wrong.

Is it right to say "I don't need to know those matchups"? **** no, that's moronic. But does it mean a person can get far using a high tier, knowing his high tier matchups? Mathematically, and when the preconditions are satisfied (equal skill), that is exactly what the tier list is saying.

 

[Deleted member]

I think tier lists should be based off of tournament rankings, but that's just me...

I've been saying this for years. Let's be friends.

 

[Kinzer]

I think a lot of people would disagree with Sonic being that high, unfortunately.

 

[tsilver33]

I am a Lucas mainer, and I place crap in online tourneys.

That being out of the way, I wish to continue. I am best WITH Lucas, and horrible as almost everyone else. The fact that Lucas stinks when played by me has nothing to do with tiers. It is all do to my normally inferior skill...

I still say I'm great with items on though.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

i <3 yoshi...and fox, so i play as them

he is top tier to me(its kinda dumb to say that,lol)

/thread

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Basing tier lists solely off of tourny rankings means that characters with higher learning curves/that are not "popular" don't get accurate representation.

 

[BBQ°]

Well, it's not really the SBR's fault that the low tiers are kinda all jumbled. Not many people use those characters or represent them in tournaments, so no one really knows how good those characters are, and the SBR has to use their best judgment.

 

[LuigiKing]

I do agree low tiers are going to have a horrible time placing in tournaments, they just are not that good and thats why they are placed low tier. However the thing is guys, we don't really know exactly who out of the low/mid range still has something left untapped that could allow them to accomplish more. Don't give up on your character before you know for sure they, say, ganon (lol) really is incapable of doing anything competitively.

I think Luigi in melee was a pretty good example. He was low tier for a long while, but his metagame grew and he forced himself into high tier. Same thing could happen with brawl.

*shrug*