lol at religous people, I mean really.

[Super_Sonic8677]

Most of the people who ~vent~ fit all three of those reqruirments. I think people feel they need to strongly oppose the religion is because many followers of the religion are very forceful and single minded in their beliefs. It's taught that if you don't believe 'this' then you go to hell. Of course people are going to be upset about that.

So? If there's no God there's no Hell either.

Alot of atheists (that I've seeen) are very single minded in there beliefs as well. Of copurse many of them also have other beliefs that go with their atheism. Atheism isn't a "complete package". You can't really look at it by itself. The only people who are "just plain atheists" are the kind who don't think about any of ths kind of stuff at all.

The only really cool thing about being atheist is that on they get to go as far as they're personal morals(if they have any) allow or even further. Where as the religious believer must keep his or herself bound within whatever rules they're maker (We're going to say God, because I'm a Reformed Protestantlol) commands of them to follow.

Other than that being an aetheist sucks. If they're right, once you die, you're dead and well life's too freakin short imo for this to be it. And if they're wrong well, and you're an atheist, yeah you're going down below. And why not? You (hypothetically) didn't give a crap when you were alive about God (whatever) or even tried to turn people away from him(depending on how zealous of an aetheist you are.), Why should He care now that you're dead?

It's common sense really. =|

There's not much point keeping this open Teran, the debate hall is already loaded with the exact same crap.

To the OP: Yeah the majority of people are hypocrites when it comes to open "mindedness".

Which is why it's best to really not make threads like these.

TL;DR : Close it up before the flame fest because Opinionated people are too freakin opinionated.

 

[2.72]

Other than that being an aetheist sucks. If they're right, once you die, you're dead and well life's too freakin short imo for this to be it. And if they're wrong well, and you're an atheist, yeah you're going down below. And why not? You (hypothetically) didn't give a crap when you were alive about God (whatever) or even tried to turn people away from him(depending on how zealous of an aetheist you are.), Why should He care now that you're dead?

You're forgetting about a third possibility: you can have an afterlife with no God. It's not a popular belief, but you can't judge the merits of a belief by popularity (besides, it's not nearly so uncommon as many people think).

Actually, there are many more possibilities. How about a god that, while good, doesn't identify himself with any religion. Such a god might even prefer atheists or agnostics: if he gives no earthly indication of his existence, he may not even want worship or care if the living know that he exists.

Incidentally, I don't find the idea of no afterlife particularly disturbing, although I understand that some people do.

Also, this thread has been very civilized for over 5 pages. I don't see any reason to call for it to be closed.

 

[El Nino]

Other than that being an aetheist sucks. If they're right, once you die, you're dead and well life's too freakin short imo for this to be it. And if they're wrong well, and you're an atheist, yeah you're going down below. And why not? You (hypothetically) didn't give a crap when you were alive about God (whatever) or even tried to turn people away from him(depending on how zealous of an aetheist you are.), Why should He care now that you're dead?

Often times, religiously devout people have the exact same problem in reverse. They often trade considerations of the here and now in exchange for the benefits of the after life.

It's not a problem unless this ideology works its way into laws that everyone else must follow, or becomes a stifling culture that people find hard to challenge.

Of course, if the devout are right, there is no issue. The payoff is there; it is worth it.

But if they are wrong, then they're encouraging that others sacrifice the present--which may be the only thing there is--in exchange for a payoff that won't come.

And that is why these conflicts are so volatile. It isn't simply a matter of opinions.

But as long as religion remains personal and stays away from a society's body of laws, I have no issue with it.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Yeah, adding to what someone earlier said, a belief in God or lack there of does not automatically mean that some kind of afterlife still doesn't exist. Just a far less defined one.

Seriously, the idea that this is just it strikes me as horribly boring and honestly scares me, I don't even try to pretend my hopes for an afterlife are from me fearing what's after death, because they are. =/

 

[Merce]

Supersonic... You didn't contributed anything, outright flamed atheists claiming that being an atheist sucks, and then said that we are too opinionated and this thread ought to be closed.

I'm a Hindu, and I cringed when you so callously put that being an atheist sucks. Have some tact, man.

Just because you can't hold your tongue when discussing delicate topics doesn't mean others can't either.

Edit: Awesome points 2.72 and El Nino.

And at Falcon:

Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning "without, not," as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnōsis, "knowledge," which was used by early Christian writers to mean "higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things"; hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as "Gnostics" a group of his fellow intellectuals—"ists," as he called them—who had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a "man without a rag of a label to cover himself with," Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.

So if you believe that a supreme deity can potentially exist, but aren't certain about the specifics, I would wager a guess to say agnostic would be a fair adjective to describe your spiritual tendencies. Or a general monotheist. Whatever. It doesn't really matter, you believe what you believe without a having a name for it anyways.

 

[Reaver197]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

Some Qualia Soup for the mind.

 

[RDK]

Meta Kirby, are you honestly arguing that atheism is a religion? I'm asking Crimson to have you taken out of the Debate Hall.

Religion is an evolutionary tendency that has spread rampantly through the human gene pool and needs to be exterminated as quickly as possible. It is the enemy of reason. It's an excuse for people to murder, torture, ****, and do unspeakable things to each other.

I literally consider you to be insane if you think you can partake in conversation with an invisible man in the sky.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Meta Kirby, are you honestly arguing that atheism is a religion? I'm asking Crimson to have you taken out of the Debate Hall.

I agree. I do not consider atheism a religion.

Religion is an evolutionary tendency that has spread rampantly through the human gene pool and needs to be exterminated as quickly as possible. It is the enemy of reason. It's an excuse for people to murder, torture, ****, and do unspeakable things to each other.

So you consider everything that I believe in an excuse to do unspeakable things to eachother? I don't know where you get your facts from, but most of religion, especially Christianity, preaches love, happiness, and miracles. It is not an excuse to hurt innocent people. Please do not say that everything that I believe in needs to eradicated.

Proove that my religion is not real. I do not see any way possible for life to be created other than the following: God created it, or it was a miracle. Not just a random event in the universe. And there is no way that we could be as complex as we are now without a miracle.

I literally consider you to be insane if you think you can partake in conversation with an invisible man in the sky.

You must not really know what God is? He is in all of us, he gives us guidance when we don't know what to do, he gives us confidence when we don't have it. He is with us when we are seemingly alone.


I wish that those too ignorant (such as you, RDK) to respect our beliefs would learn what religion means to us.


And i am sorry if this was considered an imflamitory comment, it was not to be meant so.

 

[Teran]

This is starting to stray off from a discussion about the nature of religion into people stating their own OPINIONS about God and religion as fact.

To all of you doing this, you are WRONG. They are called beliefs, yes BELIEFS, for a reason. Now if you'd kindly make it far more clear that these are all personal opinions when we make posts, we'll avoid a flame war, and we'll avoid me locking this thread and owning your infraction record.

Thanksies <3

 

[Eyada]

Religion is an evolutionary tendency that has spread rampantly through the human gene pool and needs to be exterminated as quickly as possible. It is the enemy of reason. It's an excuse for people to murder, torture, ****, and do unspeakable things to each other.

That isn't an entirely fair statement, given that not all "Religions" necessarily promote those things. Rather than saying "religion", it would be more fair to say "any ideology that promotes ****, murder, etc". There are religions that meet that criteria, but not all of them do.

That said, I strongly object to religion in general simply because religion engenders a respect for "Faith"; religion presents "Faith" as if it were something to be respected or admired, when in reality "Faith" is a useless, flawed, and dangerous (yes, dangerous) idea that should be scorned by all logical people. Religion presents "Faith" as if it were a valid source of justification for claims to truth, when it is not. What's more, religion promotes "Faith" as something that should be respected and unquestionable.

The big problem with this is that "Faith" is not a valid source of justification, and accepting it as such is wrong and dangerous, for multiple reasons.

First, the acceptance of "Faith" as a valid source of justification results in logical contradictions. This is because "Faith" can be used to justify any claim to truth or falsity, which means that accepting "Faith" as a valid form of justification necessarily entails the acceptance of all claims as being both true and false simultaneously, which is obviously completely nonsensical. (In other words, it results in Trivialism.)

Second, "Faith" is based on ignorance. "Faith" is belief in something without any justification for that belief; in other words, "Faith" is belief without understanding or questioning why you believe. This means that "Faith" is belief based on ignorance. You believe something, and your justification for that belief is ignorance. Ignorance is not a valid source of justification, so the problem here should be apparent.

Third, acceptance of "Faith" results in the *********** of societal progress and it encourages complacency and acceptance of ignorance.

With "Faith":
--Why do people get cancer? Well, God does it, and I have "Faith" that God will cure them if that is his Will. We don't need to understand, just have "Faith". God will take care of us.
Result: Zero advancement of human knowledge and zero improvement in the human condition.
Without "Faith":
--Why do people get cancer? Huh, I don't know; let's try to figure it out. Maybe we'll be able to cure it.
Result: A cure for cancer.

With "Faith":
--Where did the universe come from? God did it. Have "Faith".
Result: Zero advancement of human knowledge and zero improvement in the human condition.
Without "Faith":
--Where did the universe come from? That's a pretty daunting question, and it'll take a long time before we can really answer it. We'll never know until we look though, so let's get started. Hey look, we found out that the universe is governed by certain physical laws that can be represented mathematically. Perhaps we can extrapolate from them and figure out how everything started? We don't know enough yet though, so let's keep looking. Hey look, "insert every discovery ever made in Physics". Interesting, as far as we can tell there was this thing called the "Big Bang", but there are still some unanswered questions about it. Let's try to figure it out.
Result: Physics as we know it, modern technology, and an unbelievable improvement to human living conditions worldwide.

And so forth. You get the idea.

Finally, "Faith" is presented as a "Shield" against criticism. It's somewhat akin to when someone says something incoherent without thinking it through first and then tries to cover their mistake by saying "Well that's just my opinion!", as if that makes their foolish comment somehow less foolish. Similarly, if someone believes something illogical "on Faith", we are supposed to respect their incoherent idea because it is "Sacred" and "based on Faith", even if we would normally dismiss it completely due to its obvious flaws. When a Fundie says "The Earth is 6,000 years old" we're supposed to respect their absurd idea because it is "based on Faith", regardless of all the evidence we have against the claim.

Moreover, if a religion encourages ****** children, stoning people to death in the streets, and slavery, we're supposed to respect those ideals because they are "based on Faith" and "Sacred". If someone believes something "on Faith", that belief should be immune to criticism or judgment, regardless of how incoherent, ridiculous, evil, or horrifying it may be. No matter how sickening and vile an idea may be, it is A-Okay as long as it is "based on Faith", and it should be immune to criticism.

The problem here is that, again, "Faith" is a not a valid form of justification. Therefore, it also isn't a valid excuse. If you say something that is incoherent, or you believe something that is incoherent, then you are accountable for your poor judgment. If you do something evil or believe something evil, then you are accountable for your evil. "Faith" does not justify your actions or beliefs and it certainly doesn't alleviate you of responsibility for them.

 

[Reaver197]

Props to Eyada for that post, though, personally, I wouldn't have used the word "stupid" so much, if at all.

Have you read Sam Harris' stuff? Your post reminds me of one of his arguments.

 

[Eyada]

Props to Eyada for that post, though, personally, I wouldn't have used the word "stupid" so much, if at all.

Have you read Sam Harris' stuff? Your post reminds me of one of his arguments.

Reading back through, my usage of the word "stupid" does seem a bit belligerent. I didn't intend to come across as aggressive or rude, although I can see how a reader would get that impression. I don't have time for a full edit right now, but I'll tone down the wording a bit later when I get a moment.

I haven't read anything from Sam Harris, I'll have to look him up. Thanks for the suggestion.

Edit:

This is starting to stray off from a discussion about the nature of religion into people stating their own OPINIONS about God and religion as fact.

To all of you doing this, you are WRONG. They are called beliefs, yes BELIEFS, for a reason. Now if you'd kindly make it far more clear that these are all personal opinions when we make posts, we'll avoid a flame war, and we'll avoid me locking this thread and owning your infraction record.

Thanksies <3

Sorry for missing this. It took me awhile to finish that long post, so I didn't see you post. If anything I said is out of line, let me know and I'll fix it.

 

[Teran]

Seems ok, and whatever seems slightly iffy I'll let slide since you started posting before I said that.

Nobody else has any excuses though.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yeah, adding to what someone earlier said, a belief in God or lack there of does not automatically mean that some kind of afterlife still doesn't exist. Just a far less defined one.

Seriously, the idea that this is just it strikes me as horribly boring and honestly scares me, I don't even try to pretend my hopes for an afterlife are from me fearing what's after death, because they are. =/

Well, according to the Christian Bible, eternity in Heaven is basically spend in a hypnotic trance singing hynms because of how freakishly awesome God supposedly is. To me, that's even scarier because you lose both your identity and your mind. Basically, everything that makes you YOU is taken away so that you're basically a mindless pawn. You lose any form of individualism and, from the sound of things, you lose your entire thought process too. It beats the alternative of Hell for sure but, in my humble opinion, they're almost one in the same in my eyes. Endless torture or endless monotony? They only reason people view heaven as comforting is because of all the fluff that people have given to it over the years like being reunited with loved ones (you'll have a different body and so will they so you won't even recongize them), having a mansion (where does it say this exactly?), and being made a king/queen (at the expense of your mind/soul). I mean, it was basically said in different parts of the Old and New Testement that anyone who looked directly at God would be made blind or driven insane so what exactly to you think is going to happen if you pretty much to spend an eternity staring at him and singing praises? /rant

This is just one of the reasons why I left organized religion behind.

 

[RDK]

That isn't an entirely fair statement, given that not all "Religions" necessarily promote those things. Rather than saying "religion", it would be more fair to say "any ideology that promotes ****, murder, etc". There are religions that meet that criteria, but not all of them do.

All religion is the same in the sense that it leads people to make conclusions about the world that were not met using reason, rationality, or common sense, which is basically everything that's wrong with the world.

 

[Falconv1.0]

RDK are you trying to piss Teran off or something?

 

[Teran]

Closed for an hour so everyone can marvel at how all of RDK's opinions are fact.

I say opinion because you obviously just made a generalization about religion, you know, all religions do blah blah.

Sort of like, all black people do blah blah.

 

[Teran]

Aaaand opened.
Now that you know I'm not messing around, please play nice.

Next time anyone steps out of line I'm burying this for good.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Well, after 2 or 3 pages, I stopped reading and will just answer to the OP's question.

I'm atheist and came to hate Christianity because of forceful christians who's tried to convert me and told me I'd burn in hell because I didn't believe in god. I think that it's pretty extreme the way they won't let me NOT believe in their God.

I don't bash God or anything, but I seriously hate Christianity for that reason. I even remember being persecuted in my elementary schooldays, when I was about in grade 3 because I had come to ask myself: Does a God really exist?

I was literally bashed by most kids in the school for questioning about God's existence. There are and will always be extremists. Atheist extremists aren't any better... But I know for one that you don't need Christian extremists to tell you that you'd burn in hell =/...

Anyways, not that I have something against Christians themselves.
I just think that Christianity is way too into its old fashioned way of doing things... At least, there ain't no more women burnt because they are suspected of being witches. But you get my drift, not believing in god = burning in hell is pretty extreme.

Pardon my poor wording. It wasn't flowing very well in my mind either.

 

[Apollo$]

I'm surprised this thread is still alive, I pretty much went from religious to atheist. I think people can believe what they want but extremist from the religious side and atheist side need to chill.

 

[Darkconda]

No where in the Bible does it say that you are in a trance. Christianity is not exactly a religion, it is the different section that are(Baptist, Catholic, ETC). Being Catholic is not really being a Christian. The Bible teaches that you should not have false idols or any other Gods before God and yet Catholics Pray to and worship the virgin Mary(praying to would be considered worship). So either your a true Catholic or your not
I understand that many Christians go about things the wrong way. They shouldn't judge people or they will be judged how they judge. If somebody says no they don't wan to hear what the Christian has to say, the Christian should say "Have a nice day" and be done with it. While it is true that "we as Christians " Believe that that the only way to Heaven is through accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. When I say I believe that being a Homosexual is wrong, I also beieve that lying is wrong. I lie all the time. The problem being that Christians should lead by example, not by what they say. They shouldn't try to force people into being converted., only God can do that. there are alot of hypocrites out there. Alot of the time I am one. I'm not proud of it. I true Christian will only tell you about Jesus because they care about you, not because they are offended. Once you tell them you don't want to hear it, they should stop, because there is no forcing it on people.

 

[RDK]

Closed for an hour so everyone can marvel at how all of RDK's opinions are fact.

I say opinion because you obviously just made a generalization about religion, you know, all religions do blah blah.

Sort of like, all black people do blah blah.

Saying all religions are irrational is like saying all blacks are black.

 

[Teran]

Saying all religions are irrational is like saying all blacks are black.

Not really, no.
Have you studied every single religion out there? No.

Also, blacks are all different shades of brown.

Stop being so arrogant with your views and shoving them down people's throats, it's no better than a Bible thumper telling you you're a devil worshipping sinner who'll end up rotting for all eternity.

 

[Reaver197]

Reading back through, my usage of the word "stupid" does seem a bit belligerent. I didn't intend to come across as aggressive or rude, although I can see how a reader would get that impression. I don't have time for a full edit right now, but I'll tone down the wording a bit later when I get a moment.

I haven't read anything from Sam Harris, I'll have to look him up. Thanks for the suggestion.

Yeah, I've learned myself that, with text, it's hard to soften a normally insulting word with any sort of the inflections that people are able to impart in speech. So, when a reader reads it, it especially stands out to them and can lead them to imagine it all with a very different emphasis and inflection that you intended, so I generally avoid using them at all now.

But, yeah, definitely check his book "The End of Faith". It goes on a slightly Buddhist stint at the end, but it's nothing too over the top and he does make a fairly interesting argument for it. However, in general, I find his arguments really insightful.

 

[Nysyarc]

Not really, no.
Have you studied every single religion out there? No.

Also, blacks are all different shades of brown.

Stop being so arrogant with your views and shoving them down people's throats, it's no better than a Bible thumper telling you you're a devil worshipping sinner who'll end up rotting for all eternity.

As much as I like many of RDKs arguments, I have to agree with this. Well said Teran.

 

[~Radiance~]

I like this thread. Im actualy an atheist as well, and i've tried a hanfull of differnt religions. I get scared sometimes, becasue I know that by being athiest I am saying that when I die, that is it. I envy religious folk for having the comfort of knowing where they're going. Recentley I became vegitarian, and I think it has helped me understand and become closer to this planet, because if I belive that there is nothing after death, I'm gonna do whats right for where I am now.

 

[Nysyarc]

I like this thread. Im actualy an atheist as well, and i've tried a hanfull of differnt religions. I get scared sometimes, becasue I know that by being athiest I am saying that when I die, that is it. I envy religious folk for having the comfort of knowing where they're going. Recentley I became vegitarian, and I think it has helped me understand and become closer to this planet, because if I belive that there is nothing after death, I'm gonna do whats right for where I am now.

I like your style. I also have those weird creepy moments. Sometimes I'll be lying in bed wide awake and suddenly I'll just get that thought... you know, the thought everyone dreads... "What really happens when I die?"

I hate getting that thought, because not only can I not sleep for the next several hours, I scare the crap out of myself by all the possibilities and the vastness of each and every one of them. The worst part is that we'll never really know the answer until we actually die.

 

[Teran]

I like your style. I also have those weird creepy moments. Sometimes I'll be lying in bed wide awake and suddenly I'll just get that thought... you know, the thought everyone dreads... "What really happens when I die?"

I hate getting that thought, because not only can I not sleep for the next several hours, I scare the crap out of myself by all the possibilities and the vastness of each and every one of them. The worst part is that we'll never really know the answer until we actually die.

Well actually, we may never know even if we die.
If oblivion is our final fate, then our consciousness won't exist to know that death is oblivion.

Yeah, now I made you soil yourself with fear. ;D

 

[Nysyarc]

Well actually, we may never know even if we die.
If oblivion is our final fate, then our consciousness won't exist to know that death is oblivion.

Yeah, now I made you soil yourself with fear. ;D

Oh I've already been down that train of thought... it only has one stop, and that's in Take A Dump In Your Pants Town. I mean honestly, the only comparison we have to 'nothing' is a dreamless sleep, and that goes by instantaneously. So... infinite amounts of time would go by instantaneously if there was nothing forever... but... we... it... AAAAAARGHH!!!

 

[demonictoonlink]

IMO...there's nothing to fear.

I don't care who I offend; There is no hell. Be as spiritual as you want, but this is purely propaganda and if you can think, you should know this makes no sense. With that out, heaven or other eternal life **** is left, which sounds aight'

There is nothing and we just die. K? So...why would you be afraid of that? You know, sometimes that sounds better than life even...It sounds nice to be able to take a break, even if it's forever.

 

[Clownbot]

IMO...there's nothing to fear.

I don't care who I offend; There is no hell. Be as spiritual as you want, but this is purely propaganda and if you can think, you should know this makes no sense. With that out, heaven or other eternal life **** is left, which sounds aight'

There is nothing and we just die. K? So...why would you be afraid of that? You know, sometimes that sounds better than life even...It sounds nice to be able to take a break, even if it's forever.

I'm surprised (based on how long this post has been up) that it hasn't gotten a response yet.

Prove to me (with REAL EVIDENCE) that hell can't exist. You can think whatever you want; it really pisses me off when people express their belief as a fact.

 

[Aurasmash14]

I'm surprised (based on how long this post has been up) that it hasn't gotten a response yet.

Prove to me (with REAL EVIDENCE) that hell can't exist. You can think whatever you want; it really pisses me off when people express their belief as a fact.

Clownbot is getting strake's knack for owning.

 

[PassWurD]

The only fearful thing to me, IS living forever. That **** sounds mega boring.

 

[Reaver197]

I'm surprised (based on how long this post has been up) that it hasn't gotten a response yet.

Prove to me (with REAL EVIDENCE) that hell can't exist. You can think whatever you want; it really pisses me off when people express their belief as a fact.

One thing that people seem to toss around is that "you can't prove nor have evidence that this or that does not exist!". It's a fantastically fallacious statement. If something doesn't exist, it's impossible to have tangible evidence that explicitly demonstrates said being or object doesn't exist.

For example, say that I don't believe deers exist. All one would have to do is take a picture, or go outside and capture one, and there, you've proved to me that deer exist. However, if I were to say that a creature called the bibberlygook existed, and you said "I don't think there is such a thing", and I went "well, show me the evidence that it doesn't exist", what do you do? You can't get any body, or picture, or footprint as evidence, because it doesn't exist.

Instead, what one (if one is forced to disprove it) has to do is find out the properties and characteristics this creature supposedly has. If I said that it weighed 4 tons, yet could fly with two wings that are only an inch long each, you would surmise, from an understanding of physics and biology, that such a creature does not exist. All that can be done is to see if claimed characteristics fit in with well-tested and sound bodies of knowledge; if it contradicts them, it probably doesn't exist, if it doesn't, it might.

What should be done from the outset, however, to clamp down on uncertainty and frivolous wastes of time, is that if people claim something exists, they should bring corresponding evidence to back up the claim. It shouldn't fall on to other people to have to ascertain evidence to disprove it. It was said best by, I believe it was, Christopher Hitchens, "that which is put forth without evidence can be rejected without evidence".

Going straight to the argument that hell exists jumps over several other arguments that, at least I would imagine, would be essential to settle before even considering arguing over the issue of whether there is a hell. First, would be the need to determine whether people are able to somehow exist, be cognitively aware and, it seems, can acquire the physical ability to feel pain after death.

There is no solid evidence anywhere I've found (and I've looked at and been sent many things) to suppose that there is any ability for us to somehow retain consciousness after the death of our brain, the very thing needed to be conscious.

The next argument that would have to be settled is whether there is actually a god in the first place. Of this, I've seen some remarkably interesting attempts to prove there is one, but, fortunately or unfortunately, they've all failed to either bring forth evidence to support some of the claims made and/or were logically unsound/inconsistent. As of yet, I've yet to see any conclusive evidence that there is even a god to worry about in the first place who might condemn people to hell.

Then, if there is in actuality a god, or gods, you have the extremely tricky problem of determining which of the thousands (possibly millions) interpretations of a god (or gods) that humanity has put forth over the course of history, is actually representative of the possible actual god, or maybe none are at all.

Not to mention the logical issues that are created supposing the existence of the, ostensibly, all-powerful and loving christian god, yet he will somehow make people or allow them to be in such a way (despite loving them) that will condemn them to an eternity of punishment (where would hell be anyway? It would need to be particularly large it seems). Plus, not to mention, if the only way to avoid going to hell is to follow the bible, then even most christians would probably end up there as well for not following through on the more unpleasant commands put forth in the bible, like Deuteronomy 13: 7 - 11, or Numbers 15: 32-56, etc.

 

[Ls777]

interesting thread.

i would like to say that my belief in god does not stem from purely "propaganda."
I have had a lot of personal experiences that have led me to come to my own conclusion that god is real. (I wont bore you with them now, but if you really want to know them i don't mind saying...)
To me, my belief is half faith, half logic.
To shoot down Christianity as an "idiot's religion" is completely uncalled for, as for one i know that I am far from an idiot. (Graduated top of my class, sexy SAT scores, etc.)
The fact is, i see a lot of generalizations and little backing up of them. XD

I'm surprised (based on how long this post has been up) that it hasn't gotten a response yet.

Prove to me (with REAL EVIDENCE) that hell can't exist. You can think whatever you want; it really pisses me off when people express their belief as a fact.

This.

i love science.


(and yes, i registered just to say that. Ive been lurking on this forum for months. INB4 new***. etc.)




EDIT:

Going straight to the argument that hell exists jumps over several other arguments that, at least I would imagine, would be essential to settle before even considering arguing over the issue of whether there is a hell. First, would be the need to determine whether people are able to somehow exist, be cognitively aware and, it seems, can acquire the physical ability to feel pain after death.

There is no solid evidence anywhere I've found (and I've looked at and been sent many things) to suppose that there is any ability for us to somehow retain consciousness after the death of our brain, the very thing needed to be conscious.

The next argument that would have to be settled is whether there is actually a god in the first place. Of this, I've seen some remarkably interesting attempts to prove there is one, but, fortunately or unfortunately, they've all failed to either bring forth evidence to support some of the claims made and/or were logically unsound/inconsistent. As of yet, I've yet to see any conclusive evidence that there is even a god to worry about in the first place who might condemn people to hell.

Then, if there is in actuality a god, or gods, you have the extremely tricky problem of determining which of the thousands (possibly millions) interpretations of a god (or gods) that humanity has put forth over the course of history, is actually representative of the possible actual god, or maybe none are at all.

Not to mention the logical issues that are created supposing the existence of the, ostensibly, all-powerful and loving christian god, yet he will somehow make people or allow them to be in such a way (despite loving them) that will condemn them to an eternity of punishment (where would hell be anyway? It would need to be particularly large it seems). Plus, not to mention, if the only way to avoid going to hell is to follow the bible, then even most christians would probably end up there as well for not following through on the more unpleasant commands put forth in the bible, like Deuteronomy 13: 7 - 11, or Numbers 15: 32-56, etc.

nicely put.
however, the question was "prove that hell doesn't exist", not "prove that there is no proof that hell exists."
Obviously there is no way to prove that hell exists, or souls exist, etc.
That is why it is called faith.

 

[Razek]

religion is still around for the single fact that it cannot be proven. Personally religion normally helps people create good morals. I just think the people that are so religious it effects other people is when it gets a little to much. The thing that does bother me is orginized religion. There is no point to it. Money should have nothing to do with it. Yet most churches say that you should give 10% of your income to the church.* I get this data from my friends that are religious*. Religion should be practiced in the comfort of your home or should be at a meeting place, say a park. Someplace where money isn't involved so that corrupt churches will have to disappear. Faith is what keeps religion alive which is fine. To me its not required, then again im an engineer and i need everything to be logical

 

[Fatmanonice]

No where in the Bible does it say that you are in a trance.

It does say that people are so overwelmed by being in the presence of God that they might as well be.

I never really liked the idea of Heaven and Hell. To me, Heaven is a form of escapism and Hell is a form of punishment for not believing a certain set of beliefs. Karl Marx once said that "religion is the opiate of the people" and I agree with him in regards to Heaven and Hell. Similar in style to how the Raven expresses it in George Orwell's Animal Farm, Heaven is an ideal world. There's no pain, no suffering, no death, etc. The raven constantly tells the other animals that if they are pieous and hard working, they'll go to Heaven when they die. Basically, "your life may suck horrifically now but if *insert thing/s here* you'll be released from all that when you die." It gives people hope even when they live in craptastic conditions (ie; missonary work in third world countries). It gives people a form of motivation even when they have nothing to be motivated enough especially in places where jobs are limited, disease is rampart, the life expectancy barely reaches out of the 20's, etc. The belief is good because of that but it could also be argued that it drives people to do things out of self preservation and general selfishness.

Heaven is a way of preserving the ego (despite the fact that I pointed out that it's really not). If you live forever, your ego continues to live on. Except for people who are greatly depressed, they are the most important person in their life. You can't really argue around this because, even for missionaries and what-not, they don't sacrafice all their food, clothes, etc for other people. They find a way to keep themselves alive as does everyone else. It could be argued that there really isn't such thing as a completely unselfish act but that's a debate in ethics all onto itself.

Getting back to what I was saying, the idea of Heaven appeals to a lot of people because of some of the ideas that are presented like being given a perfect body, a freakishly big mansion, etc. If God is so great, why would people need any of this stuff? Shouldn't they just be happy (more like in an endless state of ectasy that makes them lose their minds) just being in his presence? Also, the idea of the sea of glass, streets of gold, pearly gates, etc really bugs me too. If God is so great, why does he need to express his greatness through human terms? The only reason those things are considered valuable (well, glass was valuable hundreds of years ago) is because our ancestors were stupid and thought "ooh shiny stuff, gu-huh" not because God decreed that they were valuable. Aren't there even a lot of examples in the Bible where God frowns on the use of gold in religious practices? Still, my point stands, Heaven is practically an ideal world built by human standards. I once got slapped by my Mother for asking this but if God is so great, couldn't Heaven be a Waffle House and people would be enthralled just because God was there?

Hell pretty much does the same thing except the opposite. Your ego is kept alive forever, but you suffer in an unimaginable manner and is based around things that people hate. It's retardedly hot, pitch black, you're suffocating because of the heat, you're falling forever, and you're being eaten alive by supernatural worms. I don't know about all of you but that would be something I'd want to avoid. This also acts a form of motivation. As Heaven is "if you do this", Hell is "if you don't do this." Also, in a twisted sort of way, the idea of Hell is kind of comforting. Ever had someone who's given you hard time? Picture them going to Hell for doing so. Now, in modern times, most people wouldn't outright admit that this is good but back in, say, Biblical times this probably was widely accepted especially in a society with a justice system that was pretty much built around "an eye for an eye." When you tell someone "go to Hell", I think people subconciously wish the torments on that person. You and the people you like go to Heaven and every douchebag you've ever met roasts in Hell; even in modern settings, that idea is somewhat comforting.

 

[Darkconda]

religion is still around for the single fact that it cannot be proven. Personally religion normally helps people create good morals. I just think the people that are so religious it effects other people is when it gets a little to much. The thing that does bother me is orginized religion. There is no point to it. Money should have nothing to do with it. Yet most churches say that you should give 10% of your income to the church.* I get this data from my friends that are religious*. Religion should be practiced in the comfort of your home or should be at a meeting place, say a park. Someplace where money isn't involved so that corrupt churches will have to disappear. Faith is what keeps religion alive which is fine. To me its not required, then again im an engineer and i need everything to be logical

Its says in the Bible to give 10%, obviously God doesn't need money. Its to show Obedience. most people love money. It goes back to loving God with all that you are.

 

[Ls777]

Getting back to what I was saying, the idea of Heaven appeals to a lot of people because of some of the ideas that are presented like being given a perfect body, a freakishly big mansion, etc. If God is so great, why would people need any of this stuff? Shouldn't they just be happy (more like in an endless state of ectasy that makes them lose their minds) just being in his presence? Also, the idea of the sea of glass, streets of gold, pearly gates, etc really bugs me too. If God is so great, why does he need to express his greatness through human terms? The only reason those things are considered valuable (well, glass was valuable hundreds of years ago) is because our ancestors were stupid and thought "ooh shiny stuff, gu-huh" not because God decreed that they were valuable. Aren't there even a lot of examples in the Bible where God frowns on the use of gold in religious practices? Still, my point stands, Heaven is practically an ideal world built by human standards. I once got slapped by my Mother for asking this but if God is so great, couldn't Heaven be a Waffle House and people would be enthralled just because God was there?

The bible says heaven will be too awesome for us to comprehend.
The reason for the description of the streets of gold and etc. is to try and put it in human terms so we can get an idea of 1/1000 of how it is going to be =P
You have to understand that you are quoting from the book of revelation, and a large part of revelation is symbolic.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The bible says heaven will be too awesome for us to comprehend.
The reason for the description of the streets of gold and etc. is to try and put it in human terms so we can get an idea of 1/1000 of how it is going to be =P
You have to understand that you are quoting from the book of revelation, and a large part of revelation is symbolic.

See that's the thing too, that's a big debate in Christianity. Is the Bible symbolic or is it completely literal? Obviously, Revelation is not exempt from this and probably the biggest battleground when it comes to this debate.