Link Match-up Thread

[Fenrir VII]

Any thoughts on a match up against Snake?

I see both characters having advantages against each other, but I think Snake may have a slight advantage thanks to his traps and grabs.

Eh, I don't have many, but I figured since nobody else answered you, I'd throw some stuff in..

I honestly don't think Snake should be grabbing you often as Link, as long as you can avoid the tranquilizer darts.. Link has the spacing and zoning tools to keep him out, and Snake isn't fast enough that he should be consistently grabbing you.

Snake is in danger when he's in the air... which means you should be able to juggle him and edgeguard pretty effectively. Essentially, zone him well in the neutral, get him off the stage, and just edgeguard with your normal stuff (nair nair nair ftilt, etc) until he dies. It's a fun matchup, though.

I'm pretty sure that's what I meant when I said only throw out rangs when you know he's out of DT range, dude. But that does stuff a lot of links zoning if you can't do that. Which is why I suggested nair as a way to keep him out.

EDIT; Why am I reexplaining my post? I guess I just wanted something more offered beyond what I already said about not rang-ing in DT's range.

Normal DT has some cooldown to punish.
Otherwise, Jab jab > dtilt, dsmash, grab, upB, etc is GODLY in this matchup. Fair, Nair, Bair, and Zair zoning is all viable, with proper spacing. Lasting nair edgeguard poops on his recovery (like it does quite a few characters...)
If you get a grab, generally uthrow (after dthrow > utilt stops working)... your up attack options are better than Lucario's downward ones, for the most part.

 

[Player -0]

I'm pretty sure that's what I meant when I said only throw out rangs when you know he's out of DT range, dude. But that does stuff a lot of links zoning if you can't do that. Which is why I suggested nair as a way to keep him out.

EDIT; Why am I reexplaining my post? I guess I just wanted something more offered beyond what I already said about not rang-ing in DT's range.

Probably me not re-reading through your post before posting. You don't have to be so touchy though.

Although as Fenrir said DT has quite a bit of endlag. Probably the same amount as it takes to throw a boomerang. So unless you're DJing then throwing a boomerang you should be able to Jab his approach or just Nair/Fair.

This is assuming he doesn't use an auracharge. I think 'Carios might be able to "Extreme Speed" in and pop an aura charge to an aerial to a forcepalm/DT into a combo but you should be able to just Jab/Nair/Fair this (It is pretty fast though).

Eh, I don't have many, but I figured since nobody else answered you, I'd throw some stuff in..

I honestly don't think Snake should be grabbing you often as Link, as long as you can avoid the tranquilizer darts.. Link has the spacing and zoning tools to keep him out, and Snake isn't fast enough that he should be consistently grabbing you.

Snake is in danger when he's in the air... which means you should be able to juggle him and edgeguard pretty effectively. Essentially, zone him well in the neutral, get him off the stage, and just edgeguard with your normal stuff (nair nair nair ftilt, etc) until he dies. It's a fun matchup, though.

___________________________________________________________
Normal DT has some cooldown to punish.
Otherwise, Jab jab > dtilt, dsmash, grab, upB, etc is GODLY in this matchup. Fair, Nair, Bair, and Zair zoning is all viable, with proper spacing. Lasting nair edgeguard poops on his recovery (like it does quite a few characters...)
If you get a grab, generally uthrow... your up attack options are better than Lucario's downward ones, for the most part.

Lucario CAN double team down to escape if you go too far to Up Air him again. I think he can also B-Reverse his aurasphere so that adds more mindgames.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Lucario CAN double team down to escape if you go too far to Up Air him again. I think he can also B-Reverse his aurasphere so that adds more mindgames.

Oh sure. that's a fair point.
I'm not really meaning uair, though... because I think that move is fairly trash under normal circumstances against characters with decent aerial speed/mobility... An empty SH or FH at least gives you the chance to land an usmash or utilt a DT or whatever else the Lucario does.
Once Lucario gets in the air, he's essentially just trying to get down.. Link is fairly slow, but his upward options are great for keeping other chars up there.


EDIT* I edited my original post to clarify that I'm saying to use uthrow after the dthrow setups stop working as well... until that point, there's almost nothing better than dthrow > whatever you want.

 

[ITALIAN N1NJA]

Any tips for a Link vs Marth match-up? I assume it's close to what the Roy match-up is. But whenever I get hit off the ground, when I'm coming back to the ledge with dodge tether or ledge sweet spot, the side smash gets me. It's reach is beyond everything. It's great for Marth and Roy in terms of edgeguarding. Not for Link though. There isn't much time for projectile game on the ground because Marth wavedashes like he's on a slip n slide towards you and starts throwing Fairs or Nairs so you become immediately pressured pretty bad. If he doesn't hit you and you manage to shield, he just uses his Mr. Fantastic grab range to grab you and start comboing into infinity.

 

[Problem2]

DI down and away on Marth's throws, even if the throw is sending you off stage. It's harder for him to follow up that way.

Dealing with aggression and pressure can be hard as Link, but you have to get used to being a slippery fish and slipping out of corners and tight situations. In some match-ups, the pace will have you playing like this for most of the match. Be mobile to avoid damage rather than excessively dodging or shielding. In situations where you realize what he's going to try to attack with, you can use your prediction to use something like a dodge or shield if it results in you getting a good punish in return. (ie. you predict a non-tippered f-smash; you can shield grab it as Link)

Marth's f-air and d-tilt are particularly hard to deal with as Link. You can't shield grab either one. You can try and pay attention to his height when he f-airs you. Sometimes, if he floats too long in the air when he f-airs, you can up-b oos to hit his torso/legs. If he's too high for that, you can roll behind him pretty safely and flee. Versus d-tilt, you're better off crouch cancelling into a d-smash or maybe a grab. (I've personally haven't tested the cc grab vs Marth's d-tilt, so take that advice with a grain of salt.)

If you're getting hit with f-smash when you use your tether recovery, you're recovering too high above the stage. Try to come from beneath in cases you think he'll edge guard from the safety of the stage.

Don't forget that you have some good anti-air options. N-air is one of your best tools for keeping others out of the air. Also, if you suspect a lot of aerial approaches, you can start angling your boomerang upwards.

 

[Fortress]

Punish Marth's need to space you out by being farther away than he wants you to be. Marth wants tippers to hit you hard, but you as a Link player excel from far away, and have a multitude of tools to punish him from a distance. Your z-air allows you to put on safe pressure from a distance while approaching and closing the gap for swordplay, while your 'rangs, bombs, and bow will force Marth to either stay super defensive and away from you or try and rush in and pressure you (which you can take advantage of, if you're the player who makes the other player move). I tend to leave bombs lying around the stage now and again so that Marth feels less inclined to throw out sweeping attacks and accidentally hurt himself.

Link also has plenty of technical tools available to deal with Marth, like the DACUS, which allows him to close space quickly, quickdraw-bow which lets you put on quick pressure from a range, and AGT for your aerial mixups. On top of that, Marth's recovery game is pretty one-dimensional and predictable. Link can take advantage of that with his assortment of projectiles to poke at Marth off-stage, and even punish Marth should he recover too high.

Like others have said already, if you're recovering with Link versus a Marth, recover as low as you can, and AGT a bomb to clear airspace for yourself. The last thing you want is to be d-air'd out of tether, and tethering/spin-attacking too high will end with an F-smash every time against any Marth worth his salt. Also, don't forget that you have the tether cancel mixup in your arsenal; you can bait out an f-smash, and punish it with a reverse-hitbox up-special, sending Marth off of the stage behind you, where you can harass with projectiles.

Check out the second game in this match to see what I mean.

 

[ITALIAN N1NJA]

What is "DACUS"? I've never heard of that technique. Thank you Fortress and Problem2. I've used many of the techniques you've mentioned. I just haven't thrown out many Nairs. I've used upb to confuse Marth after using the tether from beneath. But I'll just get dtilted from better Marth players. I should have dodged up and used Zair to get my footing on the stage again. I was having a rough time against this particular Marth. But usually I know how to hold my own. DI I down and away is smart. Thanks for the tip. I use AGT all the time. Very useful. I'm also aware of using the boomerang when he's in the air diagonally above me. I need to use my Zair more as well. It's mainly the aerials, side smashes, grabs, and wavedashes that get me if I make a mistake.

 

[Fortress]

'DACUS' is shorthand for Dash Attack-Cancelled Up-Smash. I'm going to update this post and keep typing, and I'll explain what the DACUS is.

The traditional input for a DACUS is down on the C-stick, and very quickly up on the control stick and Z. What you end up getting is an up-smash while sliding a large distance along the ground, which happens because of the momentum boost from the start of your dash attack, which you cancel into an up-smash. You can charge the up-smash from the DACUS, but a lot of the time it's ideal to bust it out as quickly as you can. It gives Link especially an incredible burst of speed and distance that's not normally part of his movement, which can help to speed up your game in general. In that last video I posted, you see me do it (in the second game) in the first ten-or-so seconds.

Anyway, here's another video for you in regards to the LinkxMarth matchup.

 

[ITALIAN N1NJA]

'DACUS' is shorthand for Dash Attack-Cancelled Up-Smash. I'm going to update this post and keep typing, and I'll explain what the DACUS is.

Thank you. I wasn't aware that you could cancel your dash attack into an Up-Smash. That'll be very useful for combos.

 

[Fortress]

Thank you. I wasn't aware that you could cancel your dash attack into an Up-Smash. That'll be very useful for combos.

I updated the post, check back for more information, and also, read this article. I DACUS myself in that last video about 20 seconds in, and you can tell by the unusual sliding movement that Link goes through.

DACUS can be used for a lot of things in your Link game, and a good place to start would be in things like:

F-throw > DACUS (viable at low to even slightly high percents)

Boomerang (while just before landing) > DACUS (just a good followup to getting an opponent up and off of the ground out of hitstun)

SHFFL'd N-air > DACUS (viable at lower percents, but less effective at higher ones due to N-air's knockback)

AGT > DACUS (just some wacky zoning pressure that transitions nicely into ground games)

Wavedash or empty short hop-waveland back > DACUS (primarily for spacing or baiting your opponent and punishing with a quick burst of speed. Effective at any percent since an attack does not precede it, and in fact can be a killer in its own right)

 

[ITALIAN N1NJA]

I updated the post, check back for more information, and also, read this article. I DACUS myself in that last video about 20 seconds in, and you can tell by the unusual sliding movement that Link goes through.

DACUS can be used for a lot of things in your Link game, and a good place to start would be in things like:

F-throw > DACUS (viable at low to even slightly high percents)

Boomerang (while just before landing) > DACUS (just a good followup to getting an opponent up and off of the ground out of hitstun)

SHFFL'd N-air > DACUS (viable at lower percents, but less effective at higher ones due to N-air's knockback)

AGT > DACUS (just some wacky zoning pressure that transitions nicely into ground games)

Wavedash or empty short hop-waveland back > DACUS (primarily for spacing or baiting your opponent and punishing with a quick burst of speed. Effective at any percent since an attack does not precede it, and in fact can be a killer in its own right)

Finished reading. That looks like it can be useful with precise timing and if it can be done efficiently. I'll be sure to practice the DACUS, as it looks like a viable technique at low percents.

 

[Fortress]

DACUS is good at any percent, really, it's following something up with DACUS that makes it percent-dependent. Also, don't spam it like I used to, because it's fairly unsafe on shield if your opponent calls your habits.

 

[Problem2]

Really solid advice Fortress. You also gave me idea! I want to start putting a video for every match-up that is the best example of how to handle said match-up

Btw, I'm updating the Marth match-up with Fortress's advice.

 

[CraigUK37]

stuggling a bit with the mario matchup (mostly those damn fireballs) anyone got any good info on this?

 

[Fortress]

N-air more to stamp out fireballs, use the Hylian Shield, and hone your perfect shield timing. Pretty sure z-air beats out fireball, too.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I guess it's time for me to voice my opinions on Link and his matchups (tl;dr warning). To be perfectly clear, these are all just my opinions from my own experience, and I welcome any opinions / discussions you'd like to have from this.. Heck, that's why I'm writing it.

First off, I was a Fox main in FL for most of my Melee career, with Link as a second. For an extended stretch around the 2007-8 timeframe, I ditched Fox to main Link (mainly because I was bored) and became one of the better Link players in FL. I won a couple smaller tournaments and placed decently (top 10) in a few bigger ones, playing as Link/Zelda only. I only say this to make the point that I have a decent amount of Melee Link experience / knowledge, which mostly transfers to PM... mostly.

In Melee, Link was kind of the definition of middle-tier, and was just about the "median" character in the tier list, beating most mid and low-tier characters, and losing to most higher-tier characters.
His worst matchup was almost undoubtedly Sheik, who could CG to death every life. He also had negatives (but not unwinnable) against Fox and Falco. Fox because shine spikes were darn near unavoidable against a good player (you had to cut your grapple early and recover high to have any shot of getting back); and Falco basically because Laser overrode almost anything you wanted to do (it even canceled your boomerang for a short time after release, which meant you couldn't "fire back"). After those three, he had fairly even matchups against most of the rest of the cast, including Marth (sorry Hylian, but I don't think that was worse than 5-5 to 6-4 adv Marth).
His main strengths in Melee were his projectile zoning with 'rang and bombs, his brutal gimping/edgeguarding, and his fairly high priority attacks, some that were actually fast. His main weaknesses were his easily comboable weight, and terrible priority / mixups on his recovery. I never really considered his slow speed much of a weakness, because he really could control about half a stage with projectiles and his range, so it never really felt like "keep-away", like it did for other chars (Zelda, etc)
Putting this here because I'll reference it later... Link didn't really have much trouble putting damage ON anybody... he had great combos, including pseudo 0-deaths on spacies with decent tech reads, and really could combo almost any character weight pretty effectively. He also didn't have much of a problem killing with his gimp options and decent kill moves. He also had good setups/traps in the neutral game to actually land attacks. Pretty much, he was kept down by his terrible defense, imo.

Jump forward to PM, where Link has received significant buffs, specifically in attack cooldowns, range, and recovery; as well as getting buffs to all three of his projectiles, with no significant nerfs (to my knowledge) other than boomerang range (which could be argued as a buff), and tether range/usability off stage (but again, his overall recovery is better, so no real complaint here).
For his recovery, he's essentially been given a third jump with AGT, and his upB has MUCH more priority, so "lol shine spike" is less of a problem for him, particularly when you consider his tether is a good mixup option. His air movement is also much better, so overall, you are given more options and it's easier (by far) to recover in PM.
While Link has received these buffs, the Melee top tiers have been mostly unchanged. Because of this, most of his bad matchups from Melee (many of which weren't terrible) have gotten quite a bit better for him. His worst matchup of Sheik has been made a lot easier due to the removal of the CG. Fox can't just "nope" his recovery nearly as easily (albeit you still have to be careful), and Falco lasers are more easily PSed, and don't cancel out the thrown boomerang (which is a bigger difference than it sounds here).
The flipside of this coin is that there are now Brawl characters to learn and deal with, and admittedly, I don't know them as well...

So onto matchup talk-
I basically divide his matchups and strategies out to several different groups (obviously this is too general and not everything applies to every matchup, but they're all fairly similar, imo)

Zoning chars (Ivy, Bowser, Ganon, etc... essentially slower chars with good range and priority tools):
Link doesn't have too much trouble against zoning characters, because frankly, he has more zoning options with his zair and projectiles than practically any other char in the cast. Zair is a surprisingly safe poke against taller characters, which can actually combo into a lot of options, and doesn't really leave the Link open to punishment. And we all know the projectiles uses. Essentially, I believe all of these matchups are no worse than even, and a patient Link has the tools to beat them.

Fast/Small/combo characters (Kirby, MK, Mario, Jiggs, Lucario etc...chars that have the ability to get in and combo you, but generally low-priority):
These are the characters that are generally annoying to play because they can do mean things to you, and are quick, but your sword helps you have a favorable matchup against them. In particular, Fairs and Jabs just overprioritize them, and are effective at keeping them away. Keeping a boomerang out is generally a good idea to screw with their approaches. Whenever I see "how do I beat ____" about these characters, my internal response is "hit them with your sword". That's essentially how I feel about them. Fair and jabs, mixed with nairs and projectiles just overprioritize these characters and make it very hard for them.
Again, for the most part, I don't think any of these chars are worse than even.

Shield-pressure monsters (Fox, Falco, Sheik, Lucas, ZSS, etc):
I agree with most of you that his hardest matchups are against characters that are able to apply consistent shield pressure. Link doesn't have great OOS options, so he has to rely on keeping these characters away from him to win the match. However, I think he has the tools necessary to keep these chars out. Details below:

Fox/Falco: They're always going to be hard... but I don't think they're bad matchups anymore. Again, they can combo Link like crazy, but he can give it right back, and should live longer than they do, because he fairly handily wins the edgeguarding vs recovery war now with his Nair alone (my opinion). SH Nair off stage to DJ Nair again essentially poops on all of their options (assuming good timing on your part) (this was also true in Melee). Add that to possible arrow/bomb work, and it's a nightmare for the spacies to get back. Meanwhile, Link's recovery has been buffed to the extent that they have trouble gimping him. Spacies have a slight advantage in the neutral, but Link can get his hits in, combo them to death or edgeguarding, and kill them offstage. I honestly think these are slightly in Link's favor now, although I realize I might be in the minority. (I think the Falco matchup is slightly easier than the Fox one because Shine > usmash is harsh, but both slightly in Link's favor). The additional stages also all help Link.

Sheik: I think this is an even matchup now. No CG, but she still has decent combos (but hey, so do you), and the recovery vs edgeguarding game is basically a wash. ledge-hog to pullup upB or ledgejump Dair is very good against her recovery, but she can needle you out of yours, if you're not careful.
In the neutral, eh, it's also kind of a wash. She's faster, but you have slightly more priority and options with the projectiles... Honestly, I think this is a fun matchup now. (bravo, PM team)

Lucas: (mostly theorycraft here) I can honestly see this one being very hard, and possibly one of Link's worst matchups. The exceptions being that you win the range war pretty handily (PK freeze is a huge part of Lucas's game and Link just beats it), and you can combo / kill Lucas pretty well. I don't know enough here to really say anything else. I don't think it's worse for Link than 6-4 adv Lucas.

ZSS: (again, mostly theorycraft here) Link players hate this matchup. ZSS players hate this matchup. Can't we just CF ditto instead? From what I've seen, ZSS has a pretty linear approach (although she is fast) that mostly centers around stun shot. But like Lucas, Link wins in range, and boomerang is a lifesaver to throw her off, so I'm really conflicted about this one. 10-10 matchup in both their favors.

Marth: I didn't really know where to classify him, so I'll just break him out here. The matchup was fun in Melee (I still consider it mostly even), and now, Link has more range to actually contend with him, and can still beat Marth's recovery with Nair. Link is very good at basically hovering just outside of Marth's range and still poking him with 'rang or zair, then actually landing grabs if you can ground the Marth player. I think this one is in Link's favor now.


Ok tl;dr time.
I don't think Link has any significantly negative matchups in PM. barring some CG that I don't know about, or something like it, I think that you are no worse than 6-4 against any character in the game (and only that bad against a few), and any matchup is winnable with the correct play method. 1 note there is that you do have to play different styles against different characters, so keep that in mind.

Please let me know any thoughts you have. I like meaningful discussion.

Universal truths:
Zair is underused
Jab jab > dsmash/dtilt is godly (although I prefer dsmash)
Nair simply beats the recoveries of about half of the cast in PM, and is a great gimp tool (especially on stages that you can knock them UNDER) (Nair gif posted by Praxis)
Usmash under platforms is amazing.

 

[Fortress]

I live by your universal truths. I'm not sure that I see any good Link players not doing any of those things.

Really well-written, and I'd like to hear this matchup observation on specific stage archetypes, as well. After all, the character matchup is only half of the game. Fighting Marth on Final Destination is a different game than fighting him on Battlefield.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I live by your universal truths. I'm not sure that I see any good Link players not doing any of those things.

Really well-written, and I'd like to hear this matchup observation on specific stage archetypes, as well. After all, the character matchup is only half of the game. Fighting Marth on Final Destination is a different game than fighting him on Battlefield.

Very true. I thought about adding a stage section to that post, but I thought that was enough conversation fodder for now. hah.

Basically, Link is one of the lucky characters to not be terribly affected by any stage. His recovery is mostly stage-independent (unlike chars like Mario and Fox who like to have walls), and he has platform tricks, long-and-short-range projectiles, AND good kill moves, so he actually does ok on any stage size / layout.

Obviously, Link is a heavy character with a good recovery, so small blast-zones don't help him too much... and I for one just love the platform play, so I'd prefer not to go to FD (but those combooooooos), but even those "rules" aren't too strict.


So in essence, choosing a stage comes down to trying to negate your opponent's advantages and exploit their weaknesses.

For example, I think Lylat is absolutely your best CP against spacies for several reasons:
1. The stage is long, which benefits projectiles, but the platforms help you against lasers.
2. the stage angles benefit boomerangs and hurt lasers slightly
3. The edges make it trickier/riskier for them to sweetspot Illusion or firefox
4. Usmash covers each of the three platforms (which is amazing)


Against Marth, it's pretty much the same things. I'd avoid FoD and Yoshi's Story for obvious reasons. BF/PS2 is good for both of you, so I'm fine with that. Lylat is good for the same reasons as the Spacies (and is overall just an amazing Link stage).
I also like stages that have an overhanging platform (like Skyworld's right side), because it makes the Marth player think they have another recovery option, but his upB has so much ending lag that you can Dair/Fair him if he goes for it. (Same goes for Sheik, Mario, and Lucario)

I actually think Smashville's a universally ok stage, if you use the platform correctly... but it's not my favorite.

 

[Player -0]

Lol, Fenrir. If we get to fight on Saturday I'm going to fish for that Zair -> Footstool.

I wonder if you can get dair off of the footstool.

*Goes Toon Link instead of Link*


Footstool is underused too.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Lol, Fenrir. If we get to fight on Saturday I'm going to fish for that Zair -> Footstool.

I wonder if you can get dair off of the footstool.

*Goes Toon Link instead of Link*


Footstool is underused too.

Dude, if you land zair to footstool, I'll let you have the Dair.

 

[Player -0]

Dude, if you land zair to footstool, I'll let you have the Dair.

Alright bro, does it come with a free spin attack too?


Can you footstool ROB out of his Up B boosts?

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Okay **** this noise.

I need to know what to do in the Falco matchup.

What should I be doing in the neutral? What stages whould I pick/avoid?

I'm tired of losing to people who play Falco just because they know how do CC everything or shine after everything.

 

[Fortress]

You have spin attack. Falco can eat blast line.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Okay **** this noise.

I need to know what to do in the Falco matchup.

What should I be doing in the neutral? What stages whould I pick/avoid?

I'm tired of losing to people who play Falco just because they know how do CC everything or shine after everything.

I'm just speculating here, but getting CCed typically means you're forcing too much and choosing bad options to apply pressure.

Spacing Fair correctly, Zair, jab, grab, or any of your projectiles will avoid the CC>shine.

Once you land a hit, Link has amazing combo options and on-reaction tech chases, which can turn into a death combo fairly easily. Just learn what works and adapt to DI/techs.

As for stage, I go for any that can screw falco's recovery or help you land gimps. Lylat and smashville are both pretty good for that.

 

[NickRiddle]

I take Falco to FD.
Because I'm an idiot.

 

[Player -0]

The question is, how many dash attacks can you chain on spacies?

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

I'm just speculating here, but getting CCed typically means you're forcing too much and choosing bad options to apply pressure.

Spacing Fair correctly, Zair, jab, grab, or any of your projectiles will avoid the CC>shine.

Once you land a hit, Link has amazing combo options and on-reaction tech chases, which can turn into a death combo fairly easily. Just learn what works and adapt to DI/techs.

As for stage, I go for any that can screw falco's recovery or help you land gimps. Lylat and smashville are both pretty good for that.

My problem with Falco is that the player can be really REALLY nutty and get away with it.


I'm well aware that Link can do good things once a hit lands. My problem is that a lot, and I mean a LOT of my options can be straight stuffed by CC.

Falco can CC D-Smash at around 30-40%. ****ing WHY?

I should be getting a KD to work with, but I get hit instead.

That's one thing that makes the matchup really hard.

 

[foxygrandpa]

link is good on both snake and ganondorf, possibly their worst matchups. They get out camped too hard and can't zone and at the same time are the perfect weight for juggling harassment and down stab combos.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

The question is, how many dash attacks can you chain on spacies?

About 2, if they don't CC the first one.

Or they don't DI the 2nd on into the ground and tech.

If they don't DI the 2nd one, you can do all sorts of crazy **** to them.

 

[NickRiddle]

About 2?
Pretty sure you can get WAY more than 2...

 

[Hylian]

3 is the most you can get on FD if they DI properly and are at the correct %'s. You can get like 5 if they DI wrong on FD. On platform stages they can usually DI toward a platform and tech so it's defendant on those.

 

[NickRiddle]

That's why you do things like dash attack > weak nair > dash attack.

 

[Fenrir VII]

As soon as they tech on a platform, they should be eating an usmash or something similar.

Link combos kind of have to be adaptive to DI and techs, but the number of followups you get against any FFer or heavier character is absurd. I've been putting like 90% > death combos together on Ganon players and spacies, etc. Link is too fun.

As a side note, the Falco matchup is among my favorites as Link

 

[KoolKai]

What's the best way to deal with Flamethrower attacks (Charizard and Bowser's neutral B) when trying to return to the stage? I realized the other day that it's actually really hard to get back on stage when your opponent is using a properly spaced and angled Flamethrower (esp. Charizard's since it retains it's range much longer than Bowser's). Here's a list of some of the things Flamethrower covers:

• Spin attack (Flamethrower simply out-prioritizes it if you don't sweetspot the ledge)
• Tether or z-air (Flamethrower can break the tether if it is angled correctly or if you don't go from under the stage)
• Jumping/attacking/rolling from ledge (this is based on spacing, but for the most part, I found that Flamethrower pretty easily stops the former two while the latter can be punished due to it being predictable)
• It's also worth noting that Flamethrower knocks away bombs as well

From my experience, it's best to get back on stage using the AGT to go above Charizard.... But of course, this isn't always an option and Charizard has quite a few options to deal with you from up there. (Of course, having a bomb helps in that situation.) I know it's kind of rare to see people do this but it can still pose a problem nonetheless.... any suggestions would be great.

 

[Apollo Ali]

Do you have a video you can show us KoolKal? I mean my first thought is just recovering high with AGT and up+b but I dont have enough Charizard matchup experience to know.

In other news, I've decided if I face a melee top-tier in tourney (Falcon, Falco, Fox or Marth), I'm gonna go match one Link, and if I lose, take em to DreamLand64 or Dracs or Skyworld and counterpick Dedede. I feel like Link vs those characters, when the opponent is competent and knows the matchup, can be really stressful. I especially struggle with pressure-heavy Fox and Marth. Dedede, on the other hand, is really chill and can take 'em off the side for really easy edge-guards. Anyone wanna argue me out of doing this? I've only done it once in tourney so far and it net me a win versus a Marth on Dracs. On friendlies, it seems to work too.

 

[KoolKai]

Do you have a video you can show us KoolKal? I mean my first thought is just recovering high with AGT and up+b but I dont have enough Charizard matchup experience to know.

Sure. I'll try to take a vid later today.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

As soon as they tech on a platform, they should be eating an usmash or something similar.

Link combos kind of have to be adaptive to DI and techs, but the number of followups you get against any FFer or heavier character is absurd. I've been putting like 90% > death combos together on Ganon players and spacies, etc. Link is too fun.

As a side note, the Falco matchup is among my favorites as Link

I have no problem comboing spacies when I get the hit.

My problem is when I get the hit, I'm getting hit.

Because my D-smash or something that get's a knockdown is getting CC'd at like 40%.

Honestly, not to john. But they need to fix the crouch cancelling in P:M. It's not even crouch cancelling. It's complete hit-stun cancelling, which is a really bad mechanic.

Down-smash/Up-B from Link is supposed to result in a KD, not having the attack's hitstun ignored and lose a stock for hitting someone.

 

[Wolf_]

I'd like to go on record saying the Mario matchup is a lot harder than I initially thought, he has a free chaingrab on Link for like 50% damage, it's insane I couldn't do anything lol

 

[Hylian]

I'd like to go on record saying the Mario matchup is a lot harder than I initially thought, he has a free chaingrab on Link for like 50% damage, it's insane I couldn't do anything lol

You should try slight DI and nairing or jumping out and mixing up slight DI with regular so he has to guess rather than react. The problem with this though is if they start jabbing out of dthrow you still can't get away lol but Idk if M2K has figured that out yet.

 

[Wolf_]

You should try slight DI and nairing or jumping out and mixing up slight DI with regular so he has to guess rather than react. The problem with this though is if they start jabbing out of dthrow you still can't get away lol but Idk if M2K has figured that out yet.

This is exactly what I thought would work, and it just didn't, literally tried everything, when me and M2K played friendlies we went to FD and he told me to try getting out of it, I spent the entire time trying lol nothing worked, then he just abused that in our match in GF, I knew I was screwed so I just messed around with secondaries the last 2 matches