Link Match-up Thread

[Heero Yuy]

I think fox is his worst match-up really. Sheik at least you can get grabs.

Fox is definitely one of his top 2 worst. I say Sheik just because the punishes are near-free.

 

[AthleticNerd93]

How does one deal with Ivy. I lose to the same person every time. I tried Samus and missiles helped super camp. Did better but still lost. I heard this was supposed to be a good matchup but i still have problems.
Also, the Lucario matchup. No idea how to handle that. any tips?

 

[Heero Yuy]

I have some experience with Lucario and he probably has the best punishes on Link in the game. However, it's very much winnable since Lucario doesn't handle pressure well, and Link's all about that mid-range pressure. While I don't encourage throwing projectiles in his face all the time, play a careful zoning game with him all the time. Bomb plants and punts are good for mindgaming and controlling space. Lucario is also good enough weight for Link to combo, as well. Avoid getting grabbed or sideB'd, because that leads to Lucario's insane combos. A bomb should cancel out the Aura Bomb (or whatever it's called), as well.

tl;dr don't get hit.

 

[Player -0]

If you haven't accepted Nair as your neutral crutch then you're doing it wrong.

 

[Thor]

Ok how on earth do I do the Link-Lucario MU? I got bodied recently by one of our best players who kind of plays Lucario [he does cool stuff like ASC and whatnot but most people think he's just doing it fraudulently]. I could beat some other 'carios in our area but this guy solidly cleaned my Link out. I sort of play Lucario some [like I barely can ASC], but I kept up with him in the ditto sooooo much better than my Link did [partially him hating dittos too I think]. It's literally bad enough that I'm strongly considering always double-blinding and just picking Lucario to force the ditto or try to do Lucario-DK/Luigi instead of Link-Lucario.

What specifically should I be focusing on in neutral and is there anything specific I should do when getting hit? I tried to SDI some but it seemed ineffective [probably just not enough?].

 

[Player -0]

Videos would be cool. Spam Fair/Nair/Zair profit is the best. Boomerang isn't that useful unless you're doing it so the tip will barely hit them because Down B exists. You could leave a bomb on the ground for random Instant AGT's in neutral.

Doing get caught up with his current moves, throw out a DI depending if you think he'll finish the combo or continue it and while you aren't thinking about DI too hard think about his next moves. Is he abusing the same combos? Can you SDI down hard -> roll away? etc.

 

[Thor]

Videos would be cool. Spam Fair/Nair/Zair profit is the best. Boomerang isn't that useful unless you're doing it so the tip will barely hit them because Down B exists. You could leave a bomb on the ground for random Instant AGT's in neutral.

Doing get caught up with his current moves, throw out a DI depending if you think he'll finish the combo or continue it and while you aren't thinking about DI too hard think about his next moves. Is he abusing the same combos? Can you SDI down hard -> roll away? etc.

Good to know to do more close-range moves [and zair] and less boomerang. I think I shield too much so I'll try to buffer out a lot more [spotdodge/roll/not shield in the first place] and I'll try to SDI down/tech roll out more as well [or SDI up -> nair or double jump, or through him or away depending on if I think he's gonna fsmash or whatever - but more c-sticking when in shield or hitlag].

 

[Wolf_]

Ok what happened with the Lucario matchup? lol I had managed to figure it out last demo, then i got wrecked by a lucario at the last tournament, how much about the matchup has changed? This player also got better and I got a bit worse but damn

I can still poop on foxes though haha that hasn't changed

 

[Big Chewy]

I am starting to go to lots of weekly's now in my area, and I already see tones of improvement in my game, yet I have ways to go. I generally make it 4 to 5 rounds in my bracket (i.e L W W W L or like W L W L). I am having trouble with the Falcon, Falco, Ganon v Link matchups. Any tips you fellow link mains can give me? I think the only reason I have trouble with the Ganon matchup is because I am a really agro link and Ganon is a brain dead f***er lol

 

[Roddy]

I'd want to know what are your thoughts on the Link-G&W MU

I consider myself as a pretty good Link player, but there's this guy I play against pretty often, who basically beats the sh*t out of me.

to the point that I think that G&W might be OP (lol I know he's not OP, I'm just salty...) His crouch cancel is really good and his recovery is pretty solid, i don't even know how to finish him with the pretty standard link combos =/
Could you give me any advice or tips to keep in mind while playing against him?

p.s. I'm sorry! my english is not that good!

 

[Player -0]

Link has a lot of trouble with good CC. Play campy and don't approach pretty much. Try to use bombs and boomerang to lock him in shield if he's shielding then grab or safe Fair.

For his recovery note if he's sweetspotting or going high. Is he saving his DJ from Up-B? If he's not sweetspotting then you can use the Up-B semispike. You can intercept him at higher percents with Dair for a kill. At mid percents you can intercept with Nair -> DJ Nair (make sure to sweetspot at the foot) then Up-B to recover and ledgehop Nair if necessary.

G&W shouldn't be able to approach.

 

[GarmWyrda]

Hi all,

I was wondering, how do you fight a CF? I'm playing a friend who starts to be good with him (nothing amazing, but he stopped killing himslef, his knees are a living hell, like he almost always sweetspot, and he is quite fast, good DD, WDs, Lcancel on point etc); and he is like running everywhere, always doing aerials (so I have a hard time grabbing him, and if I spam Nair, I end up trading with a sweetspot knee.. which is not a good thing...). I don't know where to be, what to do, how to space him...?

I don't know what you think about this MU, but I'm interested

 

[Player -0]

Falcon's favor. Rip Link.

Like, don't grab. If he's always doing aerials you can catch his dash dance or jump range with a DACUS. If you're having no luck with Nair then you can mix up timings with SHFFL Fair or SH Fair (both hits) to wall him. Try to slowly push him off the stage so he has no space.

Try to play in his face but without being unsafe. Poke like Marth. If he gets too close you lose, if he gets too far you also lose.

Also don't drop edgeguards.

 

[GarmWyrda]

Ok, thanks for the advice
I'll try do to this next time I can play him.

Am I wrong to assume that item play against a CF is a bad idea ? Like it's almost always too much of a commitment to pull out a bomb or a brang, and too hard to make something happen with it ? (Except maybe the arrow to edgeguard ?)

 

[Player -0]

Depends really, generally the CF will be gnawing at your toes and then gobble you once you try to get out anything (yes awkward words). Just try some of it out in different situations and see what works. If you start getting hard punished for it then tone it down a bit but keep figuring out when the right time is to use it.

Using your bow to edgeguard is good but make sure you don't give up edgeguards/use it if he's too close to the stage for it to be useful. I'd use it ALMOST exclusively for edgeguarding for when he DI's one of your horizontal killing moves up and then uses Falcon Kick to recover and stuff.

Remember nuances that you find are (almost) infinitely better than any advice from online. Unless it's a critique of your match that was posted online. Even then you have to think about it.

 

[Thor]

Falcon can nair through rangs but it's not that hard to get them out and it makes him do one thing, which is kinda sorta something. Bombs are hard to pull.

Grab punishes are insane but they're hard to land. His grab punishes are also insance, but they're so free to land [uthrwo -> knee is a guaranteed combo for at least a 50+% range, and it kills for at least 20% of that range - trying to DI behind or infront of him to mix it up AND to make him use hitboxes of knee that send you cross-stage will help somewhat.]

Jab is good if you can intercept him with it, so is utilt. I think SHFFL uair has its place in this MU as well, it can do a lot of work.

 

[Player -0]

it makes him do one thing, which is kinda sorta something

Couldn't have put it better myself.

I like, wouldn't ever grab vs. Falcon except in a combo. Did he just do a terribly mis-spaced aerial on your shield? Don't grab, he'll Jab -> Grab into death combo.

SHFFL Up Air in neutral sounds like a good way for Falcon to get free combos (or knee, you're boned either way). In combos sure.

Also make sure you ALWAYS end combos with Falcon offstage. Did you just do 80% of damage from one combo? YES. Is he above you and has gotten onto the stage safely? YES. Are you completely boned because loldeathcombos? YES!

Always end combos with him offstage, even if you have to cut them short. Of course Falcon has to TYPICALLY (not always) be in at least mid percent but still.

 

[Thor]

Couldn't have put it better myself.

I like, wouldn't ever grab vs. Falcon except in a combo. Did he just do a terribly mis-spaced aerial on your shield? Don't grab, he'll Jab -> Grab into death combo.

SHFFL Up Air in neutral sounds like a good way for Falcon to get free combos (or knee, you're boned either way). In combos sure.

Also make sure you ALWAYS end combos with Falcon offstage. Did you just do 80% of damage from one combo? YES. Is he above you and has gotten onto the stage safely? YES. Are you completely boned because loldeathcombos? YES!

Always end combos with him offstage, even if you have to cut them short. Of course Falcon has to TYPICALLY (not always) be in at least mid percent but still.

SHFFL uair is a good way to answer Falcons that fullhop a lot. Don't do it vs SHing Falcons. It's also a good poke if he's on a platform [so is utilt/usmash but you can cover more space with SH uair under a platform on various stages].

Mostly for combos though.

I like grabbing him if he recovers onstage with up+b. Or if he does a raptor boost on shield. Or when he lands with Falcon Kick on your shield [it's a strong option if they're not shielding but on shield it's like -15 or something]. I don't usually find ways to grab him mid-combo but I suppose it's workable.

You can dthrow tech chase Falcon for quite a while [technically you should be able to do it from 0% to the edge probably on reaction] but if you mess up you get knee'd, stomped, or grabbed [or knee grabbed or stomp grabbed or grab kneed or whatever] so it's insanely risky.

 

[Player -0]

I don't really know of Falcons that FH a lot. Of course normal platform pressure stuff. Latest as possible Up-Air -> shenanigans. Combos is given.

If he recovers onstage with Up-B typically SHFFL Fair -> Prepare to edgeguard (Mid-high percents) or Up-B/F-Smash (High percents) is better. If it's low percent and you're on ledge then ledgedash -> grab -> B-Throw is pretty good.

Up-Throw is typically better because guaranteed damage at low/Mid percents. High percents D-Throw is the go to.

 

[GarmWyrda]

Hey ! Back for some more knowledge

So I found something recently :
against Marth, I may/might have a pretty good chaingrab : DownThrow -> jab (you have to react to do a turnaround jab or not) into grab. It seems to be working from ~20% to at least 80%.
I'm not sure if it's guaranteed or not; my friend can't find a way out, but he may be DIing poorly...

However, I'm also here to seek advice
vs Marth, I still have nightmares, he can slowly cornered me, and once he has a good set-up, his Dtilt on shield is godlike, I can't throw an item (brang/arrow/bomb) because it would be too slow. I'm either too short or too slow... All I found is punished him when he jumps with a poor spacing, with a DACUS... But that's about it. Any tips ?
(it's not THAT bad, but sometimes I find myself with no idea on how to react...)

vs Roy... I guess that's a bit like Marth... He seems to always sweetspot with his freakin sword, he kills soooo early... his Dtilt is godlike, he can CC like 90% of my moves... I'm a bit inexperienced in that MU, so, I guess I don't even know what I'm talking about x)

Need help there mates

 

[Player -0]

Pretty sure people can SDI out of the jab. At low percents I'd go straight for the regrab.

If Marth or Roy starts D-Tilting your shield you're boned lol. Just mix up between Up-B, SH retreating Zair, and roll and stuff.

 

[Thor]

If Marth or Roy starts D-Tilting your shield you're boned lol. Just mix up between Up-B, SH retreating Zair, and roll and stuff.

If they're mis-spacing dtilt you can grab them or SH nair as a punish as well. Marth players should have spacing down but as a Link player it's basically our job to be inside or ourside tipper range at all times, so if you can mess up their dtit spacing you can punish more effectively.

Bomb OoS should be fast enough to hit a Marth or Roy dtilting shield, but this is assuming you already have the bomb in hand [and you will almost certainly trade with a move, but unless it's fsmash or tipper ftilt you're almost certainly coming out ahead].

 

[Player -0]

Afaik they can D-Tilt faster than our grab. Also if they're spacing correctly you shouldn't be able to get the strong hit, this lets them CC your weak Nair and since it'll be hitting on the upper part of their body it leads to a free grab/D-Tilt/F-Smash.

If your bomb trades with their second D-Tilt then typically you'll be in a worse position then them. I guess it depends on percentages though. If you're low percent you can prob ASDI down (then tech if it's Roy). If they're low percent then they win the trade pretty much.

I may be wrong.

 

[Thor]

Afaik they can D-Tilt faster than our grab. Also if they're spacing correctly you shouldn't be able to get the strong hit, this lets them CC your weak Nair and since it'll be hitting on the upper part of their body it leads to a free grab/D-Tilt/F-Smash.

If your bomb trades with their second D-Tilt then typically you'll be in a worse position then them. I guess it depends on percentages though. If you're low percent you can prob ASDI down (then tech if it's Roy). If they're low percent then they win the trade pretty much.

I may be wrong.

If they tipper dtilt I think they can jump faster than grab reaches them, but as far as I know, dtilt is interruptible like frame 20 or 21 and hits frame 7-9, so if they tipper us frame X, they'll still hit frame X [or a little later from pushback], so there is like a 20 frame window between dtilts. If they're misspaced [as I said earlier], that's definitely grabbable.

Nair OoS is good as strong nair OR as a retreating nair - less lag than zair and if they try to follow up the dtilt with a fair they'll likely be hit since you can often react and fade into them [which may also work with zair, but again, more landing lag on zair and if you don't get the claw sweetspot you're probably at a frame disadvantage on hit]. If they try to grab they might CC [ASDI down] it but you should have fast-falled at this point and should be able to buffer roll/shield or input a jab to stave off a punish.

You can dair OoS if you're positive they'll dtilt again to amusing results [do this rarely if ever, since if they catch on they just bait you and then do whatever they want to you].

Bomb is a good trade at mid-percents since it launches them [it may also be impossible to ASDI (CC) it at those percents without sustaining knockdown, at which point they have to tech]. Don't do this at low percents, as bomb is a mediocre OoS against dtilt, again unless you predict fair [which happens, since some people do SH double fair -> dtilt -> SH double fair, and if it's all tippered, Link can't grab it (at least in Melee) but he can nair out or hit Marth with a bomb as a trade].

 

[Player -0]

Make sure you factor in shield stun and stuff. Should probably just check in debug later.

I don't really see Nair OoS unless you read a SH Fair and do a forward SH Nair towards them.

Cool discussion though. I wonder if you can drop shield at low percents -> CC -> D-Smash/Up-B/Whatev.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

-Blows away dust- Links, I summon thee to the Community MU thread!

 

[Narelex]

Thoughts on the MK matchup?

 

[JesteRace]

It seems bad, but it's really not. Metaknight has the speed, and the tech chases, and the edgeguarding. Link has the range, can potentially chaingrab from like 50-death, and Metaknight is just as much combo food for Link as the other way around.

 

[Thor]

It seems bad, but it's really not. Metaknight has the speed, and the tech chases, and the edgeguarding. Link has the range, can potentially chaingrab from like 50-death, and Metaknight is just as much combo food for Link as the other way around.

It's not necessarily awful, but it is a losing MU... get grabbed once, you're tech-chased as hard as by Sheik [harder?] and MK has good finishing options. The chaingrab is definitely not easy [way harder than most chaingrabs and also much riskier due to the punishment for whiffing] and MK's small frame means that while we can combo him decently, our best tool for doing so [uair] requires more precision than in most MUs, while his multiple jumps give him a much easier time landing if we ever launch him a little too high. MK definitely combos Link harder, the difference being that MK is much lighter.

Now, it's definitely not on the level of the Fox MU vs a Fox that has correct drillshine pressure and consistent waveshines, but it's one of his hard MUs for sure.

 

[JesteRace]

I don't buy at all that MK combos us harder. He may be light, but his fall speed is perfect for combos. That's his weakness. His combination of weight and fall speed makes him combo food AND he dies earlier. And a lot of his punish game relies on reads/tech chases. Granted, he is good at that, but Link's combos on this particular fall speed are kinda free. The small size thing isn't really a big deal for disjoints, and we outrange MK with those disjoints. Atm, I'm of the opinion that this is even at worst for Link. It's his best top tier matchup.

 

[Taytertot]

hey guys im a roy main and i have played a fair amount of link though i wouldnt call it enough to make him a secondary. I saw on the community MU chart that link vs roy is +2 in link's favor and im wondering how that makes sense? I always figured it was pretty much even since roys got a great CC and better DD (and movement in general i guess) and link has projectiles and can get pretty early kills and they both combo the crap out of each other if they get a solid hit. I believe that roy has very slightly better range on his sword or at least that his close range moves have farther reach like ftilt, dtilt and nair. Ive never found link's projectiles to be that difficult to mitigate as roy so im not sure why link would destroy roy. Thoughts?

 

[JesteRace]

It's not +2 lol maybe back in 3.02. Right now it's either dead even or slightly in Link's favor. That's how I feel about Marth and Ike too. Zair is what's really hard to beat as FE characters, not projectiles.

 

[Taytertot]

It's not +2 lol maybe back in 3.02. Right now it's either dead even or slightly in Link's favor. That's how I feel about Marth and Ike too. Zair is what's really hard to beat as FE characters, not projectiles.

thats what i thought as well. maybe we could get that changed on the MU chart unless someone else has evidence to support the current statement that hasn't been thought of/mentioned. it definitely surprised me to see that charizard and link were stated as being worse MUs for roy then DK.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

thats what i thought as well. maybe we could get that changed on the MU chart unless someone else has evidence to support the current statement that hasn't been thought of/mentioned. it definitely surprised me to see that charizard and link were stated as being worse MUs for roy then DK.

Don't worry. I'm reading and recording.

 

[ShadowKing]

Don't know if these has been said but the best way to get back on stage is use links bombs right before grabbing the edge