Link Match-up Thread

[Frost | Odds]

If you think Link vs Marth is even in melee then >_>.

Eh, relatively. I played Link for a long time, and Marth was always by far the easiest top/high tier for me to deal with.

Maybe 55-45 or 60-40 for Marth?

I think it's pretty even in PM. Weak nair does not stop marth up-b, he can just up-b again right away. Marth can approach fine with wavedash OoS and by swatting projectiles with his sword and combos the ever living **** out of Link.

I'll trust your experience over mine.

What PM matchups are the toughest for Link in your opinion, then? Do Kirby and Bowser get hosed as hard as it feels? How about Diddy?

I'd test this stuff myself, but still recovering from an RSI so can't really play for another week or two.

 

[Hylian]

Eh, relatively. I played Link for a long time, and Marth was always by far the easiest top/high tier for me to deal with.

Maybe 55-45 or 60-40 for Marth?


I'll trust your experience over mine.

What PM matchups are the toughest for Link in your opinion, then? Do Kirby and Bowser get hosed as hard as it feels? How about Diddy?

I'd test this stuff myself, but still recovering from an RSI so can't really play for another week or two.

Links hardest match-ups IMO are: ZSS, Shiek, Fox, Falco, Mario and possibly Falcon/Wolf off the top of my head. Characters that can get in and stay in while throwing out high damage punishments are hard for link to deal with considering his risky/slow OoS options and poor mobility options. I think Link beats bowser, I have no idea really about kirby, seems like Link would do well by just using nair to stuff everything. Diddy seems evenish or slightly in links favor.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Super, thanks!

 

[Player -0]

I think Zaire needs to be more abused as a spacing/combo/combostarter. It could even be used to destroy projectiles if used correctly.

That's supposed to be zair btw.

 

[Problem2]

Hylian is right. Any character that can stay on top of you and combo you to death is going to be your biggest threat. In most of the match-ups such as against Sheik, Falcon, and Falco, I become real friendly with the edge. Most of their pressure doesn't work quite as well at the ledge, though the trade-off is that if you get read, you're likely to lose your stock right there.

I wouldn't recommend this strategy against Fox. He'll just start going for shine spikes.

Vs R.O.B. NEW

(1/20/2014)
Rob is definitely a unique character introduced in Project M and has a learning curve on how to deal with, even for Melee veterans. First of all, you should know to respect Rob's gimping abilities off stage. With his boosts, he can reach far and deep off stage. His aerials also get a slight power boost when he does them right out of his boosts. If he boost f-airs your shield perfectly, it is only -6 on block, giving him 2 frames to jab you before an oos up-b can hit him. His jab however, isn't that safe on block, so it becomes a game of chicken. Sometimes he'll f-air and then jab your response or he'll aerial then wait or even just aerial -> grab you if you decide to always respect his f-air. When facing a Rob on the ground that is in nuetral, be careful of how you space and time your projectiles. His reflector tackle (forward-b on the ground) is good at coming in on your boomerang and arrows and hitting you leading in to some stuff. Bombs are a little safer to throw out against this, but you can still get hit by the tackle itself. And don't forget he has that self-recharging laser. It has transcendent priority, so it will go through anything and it has some nice knockback too. If Rob can't follow up after knocking you off stage, he might try and read when you jump (or when you won't jump) and laser you so always be prepared to react.

So now that I've talked about some of the scary stuff Rob can do, let's bring up some of his weaknesses. First of all, his shield kind of sucks. It's pretty small for a big robot like him, so it often leaves his bottom or his forehead exposed to attacks. Using your projectiles (especially boomerang), you can whittle down his shield a lot then try to poke with d-smash, f-air, d-tilt, z-air, or even d-air! Rob likes to dash around in the air with his boosts to mix up his timings, but doing this leaves him very vulnerable to projectiles. He can f-air away the boomerang if he hits it with his robot "hands", but if you get his head or belly, he'll plop up perfectly to get combo'd. Alternatively, if you have the opportunity, you can throw a bomb which will also hit him easily in the air.

Edgeguarding Rob requires some practice and is difficult at first. Remember the way his boosters work. He gets 3 boosts in the air and doesn't get them back when he lands. That means, so long as you hit him and reset the situation off stage enough times, he will not come back. The object isn't to hit him far away (though it never hurts to do so), but to hit him after each boost attempt. I find the best tools for this are arrows, b-air, and aerial-up-b. If Rob is coming from a far, aim arrows at him. If Rob is coming from low, hit him with b-airs and up-bs that end with you grabbing the ledge, then go back into more b-airs. The trickiest angle is trying to stop him from coming high. Rob can mix up a lot from above by using his boosts and any of his aerials to change the timing of hitting him. From above, he can also drop his gyro to zone you out of the air, giving him a safe place to land. You can hit him with u-airs, f-airs, bombs and boomerangs here. F-airs are the most preferable because it will knock him back off stage or possibly KO him. U-airs are okay, better if they KO off the top, but otherwise, he is sent upwards and now has a good chance to make it back. I would say bombs and boomerangs are the worst options, but sometimes it is the projectiles or nothing. These two projectiles will send him back up in the air, but rarely will KO on their own, and Rob is so floaty that it is rare you will get a chance to combo off of them when he is that high in the air.

I wish I knew how to explain what to do when Rob starts juggling you from the stage towards the blast zone, but a lot goes on in a short time. This part is crucial to learn when it is best to try and jump out of it and recover high and when it is better to go low as possible. I would say learn to be very comfortable recovering very low vs Rob. The worst thing you can do is try to recover anywhere near ledge height. It's a sure way to get bopped.

 

[Wolf_]

Links hardest match-ups IMO are: ZSS, Shiek, Fox, Falco, Mario and possibly Falcon/Wolf off the top of my head. Characters that can get in and stay in while throwing out high damage punishments are hard for link to deal with considering his risky/slow OoS options and poor mobility options. I think Link beats bowser, I have no idea really about kirby, seems like Link would do well by just using nair to stuff everything. Diddy seems evenish or slightly in links favor.

I think Fox is doable, I did pretty well against M2K's Fox considering it's M2K, I also have a lot of Fox experience in general though

I think Falco and Wolf are tough with their lazers, although admittedly I have no experience with Wolf, going against Rat was the first time I played a Wolf ever

Shiek is definitely tough but I feel like Mario is also doable, Nair through fireballs

ZSS I have no idea, never played one

 

[HarryTheChin]

Any opinions on the Link vs. Lucario MU?

I'm doing a money match later tonight against a Lucario/Ness/Ivysaur main and any info would be greatly appreciated. :3

 

[Problem2]

I haven't had to worry too much about the Lucario match-up. It seems like a natural advantage to Link. I play like I always do and Lucario has trouble getting in. You can crouch to block uncharged aura sphere. You can stand, crouch, or walk to block the aura bomb.

I would be more worried about Ivysaur or Ness.

 

[Player -0]

Lucarios will go in with the aura sphere sometimes so you need to be a bit more wary then just standing.

Space your moves and if at all possible play evasive, mobile and don't shield.

Of course, did they change it so spin attack reflects stuff? If so that could hurt Lucario a lot.

Oh yeah, when recovering make sure you don't get hit my aura sphere or spirit bomb.

 

[HarryTheChin]

awwww yisss I won.

Thanks for the advice, even though I didn't manage to read it in time lol.

 

[Apollo Ali]

My problem with Lucario is that smart usage of down-b neutralizes boomerang at the mid range. It basically only works at far range.

 

[Problem2]

Yeah, Lucario has a few ways to get in. A new Lucario player showed me the other day that PM Lucario has an insanely fast crawl. As he was running, he would duck and crawl underneath the boomerang while staying nearly full speed. It was pretty cool actually, and I've never seen it by other Lucarios who have much more experience than him. Kind of scary actually.

We have a sword though, so there are still ways to combat Lucario.

 

[Apollo Ali]

Yeah, Lucario has a few ways to get in. A new Lucario player showed me the other day that PM Lucario has an insanely fast crawl. As he was running, he would duck and crawl underneath the boomerang while staying nearly full speed. It was pretty cool actually, and I've never seen it by other Lucarios who have much more experience than him. Kind of scary actually.

We have a sword though, so there are still ways to combat Lucario.

I haven't had extensive time with the match-up and to be fair, when I played it, it would swing between me 3-stocking my cousin who plays him and him beating me four times in a row. Definitely I felt like I had to play a different game when I was losing. It felt like most of the time my best option was getting on top of him with nair and bair but I had a hard time setting up a great neutral. As opposed to a typical match-up, where you use projectiles to control and limit space, it seems like you want to do much more reactive play. Throwing, zairing, boomeranging and bombing is all neutralized by effective usage of aura and down b. Of course, you can hit 'em occasionally, but I haven't figured out how to make my projectiles consistently useful in that matchup. I bet jab combo is also really effective now that I think about it. Need to play the matchup more, I guess.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Links hardest match-ups IMO are: ZSS, Shiek, Fox, Falco, Mario and possibly Falcon/Wolf off the top of my head. Characters that can get in and stay in while throwing out high damage punishments are hard for link to deal with considering his risky/slow OoS options and poor mobility options. I think Link beats bowser, I have no idea really about kirby, seems like Link would do well by just using nair to stuff everything. Diddy seems evenish or slightly in links favor.

I'm interested to hear more about why you feel these characters are the hardest.

Going back to Melee, Link had surprisingly ok matchups against Fox and Falco, with his main weakness being the gimpability of his recovery. He actually fortressed fairly well in the matchups, and could cover his slow movement with the quicker moves (SH Fair, Dsmash, Nair, and Jab jab) to effectively keep them out most of the time (Falco was much harder because lasers). He could combo them out of like 3-4 different attacks, almost to death (with good tech reads), and he edgeguarded them like crazy with lasting Nairs and projectiles to cover options.
So with PM, and those chars mostly the same, his recovery/gimpability has been sizably buffed.. his movement speed is better, and he has more range + less lag... He's also been given Usmash as a very nice combo extender and possible OOS option to cover aerials.. and he still has basically all of his previous options against them... so I don't fully understand why they would be terrible matchups (which is not what you said.. I'm just clarifying)

I don't have much experience against Sheik in PM, but she essentially grab = deathed him in Melee... without the CG, it was a negative matchup, but not brutal. I believe that her CG's have been nerfed/taken away in PM, but I can see how her neutral options would be hard for him... but with good Jab jab play, I think he has the options to deal with her.

Mario has been buffed a lot, but Link still wins the range and priority battles... I can see how this matchup would be really even or slightly in M's favor because of speed and combos, but I think Link can hang with him.


OOS has always been a bit of a problem for Link, but he has a new option in Usmash, and Nair is still usually a decent choice, with upB if the opponent is just dumb.

None of this is meant as an argument... just wanted to get more from your point of view, as well.

 

[Problem2]

So recently I learned Link's n-air > almost everything Squirtle has.

I've been using mostly bombs and nairs in the neutral game because everything else has a high chance of being punished. At higher perecent, you can plant bombs on the ground and they will knock Squirtle out of his Withdraw attack. In addition, you can up-b oos if his Withdraw touches it.

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

Can anyone help me with this Lucario player I just met? He likes to toss Aura Bombs then run past it into a grab. He is also really good at using Double Team.
How can I punish DT? It seems to have very little ending lag.
I also find that Lucario is one of the harder chars to edgeguard, since he can stall his recovery with wall clings/Aura charge cancels, as well as avoid stuff with DT. How do you guys try to edgeguard.
Also Lucario's Nair hits multiple times on shield 0_o. I did not know this until now.

 

[Player -0]

Can anyone help me with this Lucario player I just met? He likes to toss Aura Bombs then run past it into a grab. He is also really good at using Double Team.
How can I punish DT? It seems to have very little ending lag.
I also find that Lucario is one of the harder chars to edgeguard, since he can stall his recovery with wall clings/Aura charge cancels, as well as avoid stuff with DT. How do you guys try to edgeguard.
Also Lucario's Nair hits multiple times on shield 0_o. I did not know this until now.

First, does Zair clank or do anything with AS? If so then you can airdodge back and pop it.

You mentioned Nair hits multiple times on shield, if you're shielding then something is wrong. You should /never/ shield against 'Cario because he can just dash on it with his on hit cancels. Try to keep him out with boomerang, it's super fast and hard to punish (It's pretty dumb, lol).

I don't have much personal experience so I can't really tell you how to punish double team but I'd just suggest Jab -> Jab -> Anything if you're close.

 

[Xenozoa425]

Can anyone help me with this Lucario player I just met? He likes to toss Aura Bombs then run past it into a grab. He is also really good at using Double Team.
How can I punish DT? It seems to have very little ending lag.
I also find that Lucario is one of the harder chars to edgeguard, since he can stall his recovery with wall clings/Aura charge cancels, as well as avoid stuff with DT. How do you guys try to edgeguard.
Also Lucario's Nair hits multiple times on shield 0_o. I did not know this until now.

You can just walk up to an Aura Sphere or Bomb and clank it with his shield, rendering it useless.

In general, just get a feel for his style and always be sure to anticipate different moves in his chain, and then respond appropriately. For edgeguarding, a mix of your projectiles should create a tight enough path where you can read him fairly well, then respond with fair, nair, dair, usmash, fsmash, ftilt, or up B.

 

[Hylian]

Can anyone help me with this Lucario player I just met? He likes to toss Aura Bombs then run past it into a grab. He is also really good at using Double Team.
How can I punish DT? It seems to have very little ending lag.
I also find that Lucario is one of the harder chars to edgeguard, since he can stall his recovery with wall clings/Aura charge cancels, as well as avoid stuff with DT. How do you guys try to edgeguard.
Also Lucario's Nair hits multiple times on shield 0_o. I did not know this until now.

I would recommend updating to any version past 2.6, where lucario can no longer wall cling.

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

I would recommend updating to any version past 2.6, where lucario can no longer wall cling.

Oh, my bad. I just assumed that wall cling would be a pain to deal with. I have 3.02 set up already.

I'll take Player_0's advice and work on not shielding so much. I think I know what to do in the matchup now.

Any opinions on what would be a good stage to take chars like Lucario?

 

[Player -0]

I would recommend updating to any version past 2.6, where lucario can no longer wall cling.

Isn't it that 'Cario can no longer wall cling out of Up B?

If so then Lucario can still wall cling -> Wall jump, just not out of Up B. Is this correct?

 

[Hylian]

Isn't it that 'Cario can no longer wall cling out of Up B?

If so then Lucario can still wall cling -> Wall jump, just not out of Up B. Is this correct?

This is incorrect. Lucario could never wall-cling in PM except from Up-b which was removed in 2.6.

 

[Apollo Ali]

Regardless of the wall-cling discussion, Double Team IS a problem for Link. My thoughts on it are to figure out double teams range and only throw out rangs when you know he cant punish you or get in. Instead, you focus more on nairs to keep space and keep him out. It's not a very good "punish" per se for DTs, but it should catch them occasionally. Uitlts seem like another option. I need more time to work on it though.

 

[Third]

I know the Mario match up was brought up briefly, but could someone tell me how to deal with Mario? I'm not quite sure how to handle him, since he can approach fairly easily with his fireballs and stay in through wavebouncing fireballs and grabbing when shielding. All of Link's aerials seem pretty slow too, so getting out nair or bair to beat out fireballs in close range doesn't seem to work. If someone could go in a lot of depth for the Mario match up, it'd be very helpful for me.

 

[Player -0]

Regardless of the wall-cling discussion, Double Team IS a problem for Link. My thoughts on it are to figure out double teams range and only throw out rangs when you know he cant punish you or get in. Instead, you focus more on nairs to keep space and keep him out. It's not a very good "punish" per se for DTs, but it should catch them occasionally. Uitlts seem like another option. I need more time to work on it though.

You shouldn't be throwing out boomerangs if he's close enough to DT in and punish you.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Haven't been in the thread for a few days, so I'll just sporadically comment on what's popped up in that time:

I'll go as far to say that Link has a strong advantage versus Roy, with plenty of options to beat out his close-range attacks and keep him at a distance. His melee-esque recovery leaves him vulnerable to simple things like a volley of arrows or a ledgehog. An aggressive Roy can be a problem for Link, since Link struggles once distance has been closed. Link suffers under pressure, and Roy excels when putting it on.

Like others have said, focus on your basic tech before you worry about matchups. Matchup knowledge will only get you so far without the tech to back up the actual advantage that you should have in said matchup. Focus on what benefits Link strongly; L-cancelling, AGT, the bomb recovery, out-of-shield tech, wavelanding, bow-cancelling, and things like that. You'll do much better across the board with tech knowledge than you will with matchup knowledge.

Ness kicks my ***. Maybe that's just me, but his recovery can get stamped out easily (laughably so) by Link.

What is "bow canceling"?

I know of and can do the other things.

I've never heard of bow canceling.

 

[Fortress]

What is "bow canceling"?

I know of and can do the other things.

I've never heard of bow canceling.

I think it's called 'quick draw' more traditionally, but I knew about Ike's Quick Draw attack before I knew about Link's quick draw exploit. Basically, you just tap B the moment before landing, and you fire an arrow while skipping a large chunk of the drawing animation. You can do all sorts of stuff with it as a follow-up to other things.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

I think it's called 'quick draw' more traditionally, but I knew about Ike's Quick Draw attack before I knew about Link's quick draw exploit. Basically, you just tap B the moment before landing, and you fire an arrow while skipping a large chunk of the drawing animation. You can do all sorts of stuff with it as a follow-up to other things.

Holy ****, that sounds amazing.

Excuse me. Lab monster time.

 

[Player -0]

This was "imported" from Brawl. In Brawl I believe you could do a Bair + Quickdraw arrow among other things. You could search and see if Brawl Links had a list of things they could do to set up for quickdraw. You can probably do Boomerang -> Quickdraw.

 

[Problem2]

I liked quick bow in Brawl, but I have trouble finding uses for it in Project M. I think it is best when combined with b-reversing though.

 

[Player -0]

It's situational probably.

I think it's move useful if you're on a platform and projectile spamming.

 

[HarryTheChin]

Falco match up please D':

http://www.twitch.tv/m/412805

 

[Player -0]

I think you can camp the platforms against his lasers?

For YI:Brawl it has a big platform in the middle but you can't throw projectiles down. I think PS1 is a decent pick.


Not sure, not much MU knowledge.

Edit - Also I don't think you should grab OoS against an approaching Falco, don't you just get shined or the Falco is in the air?

 

[Aenglaan]

Any thoughts on a match up against Snake?

I see both characters having advantages against each other, but I think Snake may have a slight advantage thanks to his traps and grabs.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Falco match up please D':

http://www.twitch.tv/m/412805

You know, I can type up a Falco matchup strat... and I probably will later on, but I really feel you would have won these matches if you had Nair edgeguarded more, instead of your on-stage stuff (although kudos on the arrow-work... I learned a few things from that).

Few pointers from my POV:

-Don't ever grab a spacie without a legitimate setup (at least Jab Jab > Grab).. the reward isn't worth the risk.
-Dsmash is your friend against rushdown... Especially with CC, which poops on the Falco pressure stuff. It also leads to a plethora of tech-chase and combo options.
-Usmash is probably your best option when your opponent is on a low platform above you... it covers the whole width of some platforms, gives some shield-pokes, and combos into things.
-imo, Lylat is your best counterpick because it makes spacie recovery harder, and the platforms are great for Link (See the usmash comment). The tilting also screws with the lasers.
-A lasting Nair literally beats every recovery option Falco has, especially if you can arrow him out of illusion like you did. This is Link's best gimp/edgeguard against spacies.


Honestly other than that, I think you're pretty solid in the match... I was personally impressed with your tech-chase reads (where Link OWNS Falco). The only other stupid comment I would have is that we should probably all learn how to powershield lasers...

 

[Third]

Anyone have anything to say about the Mario match up please? It seems like one of Link's hardest match ups, what with the fireballs and Link's glorious characteristics for comboing.

 

[Player -0]

Keep a bomb in your hand if you're on a stage like FD and you FH boomerang and he's fireball camping. This is so he can't rush below you. I think Nair goes though a fireball approach if he's inside them.

For his recovery arrow him while he's using his spin and I think you can boomerang/nair him while he's recovering.

 

[Fenrir VII]

For his recovery arrow him while he's using his spin and I think you can boomerang/nair him while he's recovering.

This is good advice.
And yep, Nair absolutely beats Mario's upB (and is fairly easy to land)

 

[Fortress]

Hylian Shield and perfect shield. Plus, n-air beats everything.

 

[Apollo Ali]

You shouldn't be throwing out boomerangs if he's close enough to DT in and punish you.

I'm pretty sure that's what I meant when I said only throw out rangs when you know he's out of DT range, dude. But that does stuff a lot of links zoning if you can't do that. Which is why I suggested nair as a way to keep him out.

EDIT; Why am I reexplaining my post? I guess I just wanted something more offered beyond what I already said about not rang-ing in DT's range.